Guest guest Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 Whether or not free will is an illusion doesn't negate the fact that people can and do make choices. It's just that all the factors that go into making a particular choice are not as obvious as they may seem on the surface. Even those who don't believe that free will exists do believe that each sane person is accountable for his or her actions (even if they couldn't "help" the choice they made). In some cases it is blatantly clear that a particular individual can not be held accountable - thus, the insanity plea in the courtroom. So even if I couldn't have chosen otherwise when I killed my husband in a fit of anger (just for illustration; I didn't do that), I need to be held accountable for that and may need to be removed from society, for its protection. It is a complicated thing to get one's head around (for me), so I prefer to leave the question open - I choose to not arrive at a conclusion for or against the concept of free will, although my leanings are against it. Bottom line: My choices DO matter and do make a difference in how I live my life; I am not a robot. I choose to act AS THOUGH I have free will, even if I'm not sure I do. As I said recently, I try to have as few beliefs as possible, and it is OK to say "I don't know" while exploring the fascinating and mysterious nature of so many concepts. Helena From: fxgrand@...To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:14:16 AMSubject: Free Will I found this video from Sam about a week ago where he argues that free will doesn't exist. You can check the video here in a blog I just started: http://whatiswhatiswhat.blogspot.com/2012/04/is-there-free-will.htmlI also read his book, "Free Will." It's pretty convincing. Has anybody read the book? What's your take on it?I just wonder: if free will doesn't exist, does psychotherapy, whose grounded on the basis that people have free will and are able to freely change, still matter? If and Russ are reading this, can you please comment? I gotta admit I'm confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 Have you ever " freely change[d] " ?:)D I found this video from Sam about a week ago where he argues that free will doesn't exist. You can check the video here in a blog I just started: http://whatiswhatiswhat.blogspot.com/2012/04/is-there-free-will.html I also read his book, " Free Will. " It's pretty convincing. Has anybody read the book? What's your take on it? I just wonder: if free will doesn't exist, does psychotherapy, whose grounded on the basis that people have free will and are able to freely change, still matter? If and Russ are reading this, can you please comment? I gotta admit I'm confused. -- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKing@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 It's not black and white. We have *some* freewill. But it's akin to how much a dog can move around in a cage. It can decide what corner to sit in and what view to have. To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 12:21 PM Subject: Re: Free Will Have you ever "freely change[d]"?:)D I found this video from Sam about a week ago where he argues that free will doesn't exist. You can check the video here in a blog I just started: http://whatiswhatiswhat.blogspot.com/2012/04/is-there-free-will.html I also read his book, "Free Will." It's pretty convincing. Has anybody read the book? What's your take on it? I just wonder: if free will doesn't exist, does psychotherapy, whose grounded on the basis that people have free will and are able to freely change, still matter? If and Russ are reading this, can you please comment? I gotta admit I'm confused. -- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKing@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 Whose keeping your cage door locked? To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:31 AM Subject: Re: Free Will It's not black and white. We have *some* freewill. But it's akin to how much a dog can move around in a cage. It can decide what corner to sit in and what view to have. To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 12:21 PM Subject: Re: Free Will Have you ever "freely change[d]"?:)D I found this video from Sam about a week ago where he argues that free will doesn't exist. You can check the video here in a blog I just started: http://whatiswhatiswhat.blogspot.com/2012/04/is-there-free-will.html I also read his book, "Free Will." It's pretty convincing. Has anybody read the book? What's your take on it? I just wonder: if free will doesn't exist, does psychotherapy, whose grounded on the basis that people have free will and are able to freely change, still matter? If and Russ are reading this, can you please comment? I gotta admit I'm confused. -- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKing@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 But why the cage is there isn't relevant to weather we have free will or not. We have it, but it's limited. I'd answer that at this stage of human evolution, we're mostly confined to our meat sacks. We are still stuck with our 5 senses on one plane of existence. The cage is currently physiological. To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 2:52 PM Subject: Re: Free Will Whose keeping your cage door locked? To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:31 AM Subject: Re: Free Will It's not black and white. We have *some* freewill. But it's akin to how much a dog can move around in a cage. It can decide what corner to sit in and what view to have. To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 12:21 PM Subject: Re: Free Will Have you ever "freely change[d]"?:)D I found this video from Sam about a week ago where he argues that free will doesn't exist. You can check the video here in a blog I just started: http://whatiswhatiswhat.blogspot.com/2012/04/is-there-free-will.html I also read his book, "Free Will." It's pretty convincing. Has anybody read the book? What's your take on it? I just wonder: if free will doesn't exist, does psychotherapy, whose grounded on the basis that people have free will and are able to freely change, still matter? If and Russ are reading this, can you please comment? I gotta admit I'm confused. -- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKing@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 Free will is a lovely term. like all lovely terms, it is a label, a symbol pointing at something else. All words are. Same page so far, or no?Symbols allow us to point at concepts that are themselves symbols, mental models of things we may never experience, imaginary constructs. We can manipulate the words and so have amazing thinkfests around topics we have made up without any need to engage with counterparts in reality. It seems to me that free will fits that description. I have observed nothing that is not influenced by multitudes of other things, including decisions. When my grandma was 12 or so, she got scared by a spider, and acted terrified by Arachnida in front of her children, and my mother repeated the performance for me. A moment two generations ago influenced several behaviors during my own life, including many thoughts around fear and emotion. Likely my grandmother set me on a course to work with a human mind when she was twelve, and I never had much say in it. Of course, many other factors have contributed to my course in life. Every decision itself influences all subsequent experiences. And my own cognition contributes and is, in turn, influenced. This all seems perfectly rational and acceptable to me, the way of the universe. And free will is, to me, just another label to describe all this (or, depending upon its use, another label to describe an imaginary concept outside the scope of reality). When I am all done imagining ways in which really might work other than the way it does, I am still left with reality. This is not a cage or a limitation. It is the glory of existence. It is what it is because it is. So, free will is what I used to decide to write this, despite all the influences that have shaped the man who made that decision. Should I exist in a vacuum or something?D (waxing philosophical...) It's not black and white. We have *some* freewill. But it's akin to how much a dog can move around in a cage. It can decide what corner to sit in and what view to have. To: " ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 12:21 PM Subject: Re: Free Will Have you ever " freely change[d] " ? D I found this video from Sam about a week ago where he argues that free will doesn't exist. You can check the video here in a blog I just started: http://whatiswhatiswhat.blogspot.com/2012/04/is-there-free-will.html I also read his book, " Free Will. " It's pretty convincing. Has anybody read the book? What's your take on it? I just wonder: if free will doesn't exist, does psychotherapy, whose grounded on the basis that people have free will and are able to freely change, still matter? If and Russ are reading this, can you please comment? I gotta admit I'm confused. -- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKing@... -- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKing@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 <Quote>This is not a cage or a limitation. It is the glory of existence. It is what it is because it is.<Quote>Well said To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 3:46 PM Subject: Re: Free Will Free will is a lovely term. like all lovely terms, it is a label, a symbol pointing at something else. All words are. Same page so far, or no?Symbols allow us to point at concepts that are themselves symbols, mental models of things we may never experience, imaginary constructs. We can manipulate the words and so have amazing thinkfests around topics we have made up without any need to engage with counterparts in reality. It seems to me that free will fits that description. I have observed nothing that is not influenced by multitudes of other things, including decisions. When my grandma was 12 or so, she got scared by a spider, and acted terrified by Arachnida in front of her children, and my mother repeated the performance for me. A moment two generations ago influenced several behaviors during my own life, including many thoughts around fear and emotion. Likely my grandmother set me on a course to work with a human mind when she was twelve, and I never had much say in it. Of course, many other factors have contributed to my course in life. Every decision itself influences all subsequent experiences. And my own cognition contributes and is, in turn, influenced. This all seems perfectly rational and acceptable to me, the way of the universe. And free will is, to me, just another label to describe all this (or, depending upon its use, another label to describe an imaginary concept outside the scope of reality). When I am all done imagining ways in which really might work other than the way it does, I am still left with reality. This is not a cage or a limitation. It is the glory of existence. It is what it is because it is. So, free will is what I used to decide to write this, despite all the influences that have shaped the man who made that decision. Should I exist in a vacuum or something?D (waxing philosophical...) It's not black and white. We have *some* freewill. But it's akin to how much a dog can move around in a cage. It can decide what corner to sit in and what view to have. To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 12:21 PM Subject: Re: Free Will Have you ever "freely change[d]"? D I found this video from Sam about a week ago where he argues that free will doesn't exist. You can check the video here in a blog I just started: http://whatiswhatiswhat.blogspot.com/2012/04/is-there-free-will.html I also read his book, "Free Will." It's pretty convincing. Has anybody read the book? What's your take on it? I just wonder: if free will doesn't exist, does psychotherapy, whose grounded on the basis that people have free will and are able to freely change, still matter? If and Russ are reading this, can you please comment? I gotta admit I'm confused. -- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKing@... -- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKing@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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