Guest guest Posted May 13, 2012 Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 Grateful (and tearful) for your loving generous response - I thank you.HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2012 1:52:41 PMSubject: Re: Re: Depression Not to diminish the moment, but just to be honest, I saw the post as courageous and helpful. When I saw your commentI re-read the post I wrote and saw poorly wordedsentences that could be misread etc. It pushed me to think more deeply. Worthwhile.Plus, you raised the issue responsibly -- just askingme to look at it by a nice bit of perspective taking("if I were Stan I'd feel ...") On this listthat is a great thing to have out thereespecially when the so-called experts are posting.Part of the space we are creating together is one that is open, aware, accepting of diversity, and focused on whatworks. WE are doing that. In that space all responsible voices are welcome and no one gets to be the boss, or the "authority," or the "one who knows." We are all just Bozos on this bus.When you put yourself out there responsibly you arecreating that space. When Stan says "hey wait a minute" and posts an NIMH link, he's creating that spaceI've watched this list for a long time .. reading almost every one of thetens of thousands of posts over the years of its existence. I'm regularly blown away by the courage and humanity of the list.I like to think that this space we create is itself helpful.It is a projection of the psychological flexibility model into a group context. Struggling with behavioral problems can create such shame, isolation, and disempowernentthat we feel almost like alien creatures on the planet --when the actual truth is that we are just swimming inside the human condition. We are not special in oursuffering -- humanity itself suffers. When wespeak out in a way that takes responsibility andis self-empowering, it models something profound. Even this last one ("hey, I'm kicking myself") was very nice on that front.More of that same space.So thanks for that ... to you and to all. It is great to be lifted up by the reality of being human on this Mother's Day- S C. Foundation ProfessorDepartment of Psychology /298University of Nevada Reno, NV 89557-0062"Love isn't everything, it's the only thing"hayes@... or stevenchayes@... Fax: Psych Department: Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need be): Blogs: Psychology Today http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mind Huffington Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phdIf you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my training page: http://contextualpsychology.org/steve_hayesor you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.com If you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ information etc), please first check the vast resources at website of the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS): www.contextualpsychology.org. You have to register on the site to download things, but the cost is up to your own values. If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide ACT discussion or RFT discussions, join the ACT list: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join or the RFT list:http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/joinIf you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., "Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life" etc) and want to be part of that conversation go to: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join I might as well put it out there (here). I have been kicking myself a lot for writing that critical post to you, . I don't know why I get so confrontational at times, only to regret it later. It happens when I'm struggling with something or facing a crisis of some sort. It seems to help soothe me emotionally to lash out (for a moment). There may have been a modicum of truth in my post to you - it initially did surprise me that you seemed to be challenging Stan - but what the hell - that is a good thing and what he appreciated, as do I - but I blew it all out of proportion. So, once again, I find myself facing the blackboard with my nose planted in the circle the teacher drew on the board as punishment for kids who "act out" (and yes, that actually happened to me in grade school, LOL). I can only apologize and hope that you, in your generous spirit, will forgive me and let me get my nose out of the shame circle. HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2012 5:33:17 PMSubject: Re: Re: Depression Email is hard to do in a way that conveys emotion.My spelling errors etc come from speed, not upset.I'm not mad at Stan (I hope you know that Stan! If not, my apologies) though I admit the frame "accept the truth" versus "delusion" is frustrating when that frame isbased on an absence of data. But I can't blame normal folks for that -- what is a normal person to do? Jeez here you have the federal government,entire professions, and huge industrial interestspushing a line on the public ... but it is a) beyond theevidence, and the claims are worded so that it is really hard to detect that.If Stan was a scientistI might be poking at him (just in an intellectual sense).But not normal folks. I do not know if the "brain disorder" claim is true or false in a literal, causal sense. I suspect it is false; lot of folks assume it is true.But what I know for certain is that the current evidenceis far from the level needed to say it is true. And even those who assume it is true, do not themselves yet claim it is empirically true.They hint, intimate, suggest etc. But they do not make hard and fast claims.So pretty much the whole science universe agrees it is not yet empirically established in a causal senseGiven that, it kind of odd that a large section of the public(perhaps the majority) believe what no scientists yet can prove. That is not the fault of the public. It is a product of a nexus of interestsand frankly, yes, some of their hands are not clean IMHO.- S C. Foundation ProfessorDepartment of Psychology /298University of NevadaReno, NV 89557-0062"Love isn't everything, it's the only thing"hayes@... or stevenchayes@... Fax: Psych Department: Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need be): Blogs: Psychology Today http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mind Huffington Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phdIf you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my training page: http://contextualpsychology.org/steve_hayesor you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.com If you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ information etc), please first check the vast resources at website of the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS): www.contextualpsychology.org. You have to register on the site to download things, but the cost is up to your own values. If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide ACT discussion or RFT discussions, join the ACT list: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join or the RFT list:http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/joinIf you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., "Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life" etc) and want to be part of that conversation go to: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join I appreciate this post a lot, . I also appreciate Stan for posting this and getting the discussion started. All good. If I were Stan, I would feel a bit attacked. I'm a bit surprised at your first sentence, which sounds challenging in a critical sort of way. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, and maybe he didn't take it that way. The poor spelling and bad English make me think you weren't at your best when you wrote this. I suspect it's an issue that gets your ire up. And rightly so. For what it's worth - and that's probably not much : )Helena To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2012 1:53:03 AMSubject: Re: Re: Depression I'm not sure what you think these things say Stan.Let's look at the critical part of theNIMH site you sent us toLet me walk through it. My comments are in caps, in Green. My attempt to focus a critical eye on what they say is in yellow,but those words are not mine What causes depression? Most likely, depression is caused by a combination of genetic, biological, environmental, and psychological factors. GEE, WHAT IS LEFT OUT? THAT IS A TRUISM ... BUT IT TELLS YOU NOTHING Depressive illnesses are disorders of the brain. WELL THAT IS A BOLD CLAIM! SOUND LIKE A REAL CAUSE. GREAT IF TRUE. WE WANT TO KNOW WHAT CAUSES DEPRESSION ... AND YOIU EVEN TITLED THE SECTION BY THAT. WHAT IS THE EVIDENCE FOR IT? Longstanding theories about depression suggest that important neurotransmitters—chemicals that brain cells use to communicate—are out of balance in depression. HMM. I KNEW IT WAS A LONG STANDING THEORY. BUT IS IT PROVEN? ARE YOU SAYING IT IS? But it has been difficult to prove this. OH, I SEE. SO THERE ARE LONG STANDING THEORIES BUT NO PROOF. GEE, THAT IS NOT TOO HELPFUL. BUT IT THOUGHT YOU WERE JUST SAYING THAT DEPRESSION IS A "DISORDER OF THE BRAIN" (WHATEVER THAT MEANS). IS THERE OTHER EVIDENCE? Brain-imaging technologies, such as magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), have shown that the brains of people who have depression look different than those of people without depression. The parts of the brain involved in mood, thinking, sleep, appetite, and behavior appear different. OH, GOOD. REAL EVIDENCE. But these images do not reveal why the depression has occurred. They also cannot be used to diagnose depression. WHOOPS. IF IT DOES NOT SAY WHY, AND YOU CAN'T EVEN USE IT TO DIAGNOSIS DEPRESSION THEN WHAT DOES IT MEAN? I THOUGHT THIS SECTION WAS ABOUT WHY DEPRESSION OCCURS. HECK MAYBE THE IMAGING DIFFERENCES ARE THE EFFECT OF GETTING DEPRESSED, NOT A CAUSE OF GETTING DEPRESSED. Some types of depression tend to run in families. AH, MAYBE SOME EVIDENCE! WHAT DOES THE FAMILY PATTERN MEAN? However, depression can occur in people without family histories of depression too.9 GEE, YOU ARE WAFFLING NIMH. YOU DID NOT TELL ME WHAT THE FAMILY HISTORIES MEAN AND THEY YOU BACKED OFF EVENT HAT.. Scientists are studying certain genes that may make some people more prone to depression. GEE, I'M GLAD THEY ARE STUDYING IT BUT THAT ALONE DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING, WHAT DID THEY CONCLUDE?. Some genetics research indicates that risk for depression results from the influence of several genes acting together with environmental or other factors.10 YES, BUT THAT IS TRUE OF ALMOST ANY TRAIT. GENES PLUS ENVIRONMENT. THAT IS LIKE SAYING "PEOPLE ARE BIOLOGICAL CREATURES WITH A HISTORY." WELL DUH. THIS IS VAGUE STUFF. PLUS YOU JUST SAID A BUNCH OF GENES CARRY A RISK IN COMBINATION WITH THE ENVIRONMENT. A RISK. IS A RICK AN ACTUAL CAUSE? WHAT IF THE GENE JUST MAKES ME UGLY AS SIN. IF I WAS UGLY I'D BE DEPRESSED BUT JSUT BECAUSE PEOPLE WOULD TREAT ME BADLY. In addition, trauma, loss of a loved one, a difficult relationship, or any stressful situation may trigger a depressive episode. Other depressive episodes may occur with or without an obvious trigger. AAAAGH. IN OTHER WORDS, PRACTICALLY EVERYTHING! IT MIGHT HAVE A TRIGGER OR NOT. AND, SAY, WAIT A MINUTE. SURELY THIS CAN'T BE THE END OF THIS SECTION. IT IS!! THAT'S IT?! NIMH, THAT'S IT?! (ANSWER: YES. THAT'S IT). The ACBS universe is composed of hard nosed scientists.That's who we are. And I will not back down one bit on the importanceof biology (good, solid biology) in understanding behavior. And I agree with Geoffrey that we should notcast depression as matter of finger waggingand guilt tripping.But if you read carefully it jumps out at youthat the NIMH writers here are not actually making a claim that they know why depression occurs. They do say "depressive illnesses are disorders of the brain" but any careful reader can then see that the claimis not backed up by evidence-based statements. I did not remove any words (I just added mine). Read it.They explicitly say they don't have solid evidence about causes.If you believe Stan that depression is caused by a chemical imbalance of the brain, that is your right ... but please do know that no careful scientistI know of makes that claim as a proven matter of scientific evidence -- even those who believe that is almost certainly likely to be true someday. If they did know that depression was due to a chemical imbalance,depression would no longer be a syndrome ... it would be a disease.And it isn't.Read the DSM V workgroup statement on this. They say there are NO biological markers of ANY disorder that are both specific and sensitive.That is from the psychiatrists.Then what do they mean by that statement that depression is a brain disorder? They mean to state an assumption.You can go throughout the NIH and see that whenever behavior is concernedthat same thing is said easily. You can go to NIDA and read that substance use is a brain disease etc. But the the evidence will not be claimed to be causal.When this way of speaking started (10-15 years ago) I used to argue it withfolks and it soon became clear that any argument was silly because it was not a conclusion. Rather they meant that abnormal behavior is caused by the brainby assumption. If you push folk like this, they would say that environmentalters the brain; genes alter the brain; family history is a matter of the brain; trauma affects the brain; etc etc etc. When you say "Knowing the hard cold facts about ourselves and the universe we inhabit won't set us as free as we want to be but, for me, it's a good place to start. Moving forward knowing a harsh truth is more likely in the long run than believing a comforting fiction." in this context, you seem to be saying that somehow the evidence shows that people are depressed due to the causal impact of genes and brains (the harsh truth I guess) and it is a comforting fiction to believe otherwise. If that is what you think science demands you believe, I disagree. It does not demand that. Someday it may ... or it may not. But right nowthat is not what they are saying. Its an assumption, but they do not have the evidence and since they are good scientists they do not actually commit the cardinal scientific sin of claiming otherwisein the absence of data. ****The reason ACBS is called ACBS is that we take a contextual view of these things.That is a less mainstream view, but it is serious and evidence-based. Yes, genes and brains are important -- but as part of a whole system and bound by context.Genes can be turned on and off, and guess what does that? Environment and behavior is a big part of it. Brains develop. And guess what does that? Environment and behavior is a big part of it. That is not a matter of blaming people who are depressed or holding out ACT or anything as a panacea. CBS is just anapproach to science ... and it will succeed or fail based on what it can do. I'd say we have a lot to learn and we shall see how genes, epigenetics,behavior, and environment interact based on real hard won evidence. Could take multiple decades or even centuries for something as complex as "depression" Meanwhile normal folks have to live with a lot of confusingarguments and ambiguity - S C. Foundation ProfessorDepartment of Psychology /298University of NevadaReno, NV 89557-0062"Love isn't everything, it's the only thing" hayes@... or stevenchayes@...Fax: Psych Department: Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need be): Blogs: Psychology Today http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mindHuffington Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phd If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my training page: http://contextualpsychology.org/steve_hayesor you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.com If you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ information etc), please first check the vast resources at website of the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS): www.contextualpsychology.org. You have to register on the site to download things, but the cost is up to your own values. If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide ACT discussion or RFT discussions, join the ACT list: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join or the RFT list:http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/joinIf you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., "Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life" etc) and want to be part of that conversation go to: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join I've always believed that depression is caused by chemical imbalances in the brain, and that we can't always think or accept our way out of it. For me, however, believing something is true isn't enough. I want to know if what I believe is actually true. So, after reading the competing views on this thread, I did some research and found a couple sites that might help sift fact from fiction. The first is an article on the NIMH (National Institute of Mental Health) website: http://tinyurl.com/cg8ssg The second is longer and more in-depth: http://tinyurl.com/cjyk95 Knowing the hard cold facts about ourselves and the universe we inhabit won't set us as free as we want to be but, for me, it's a good place to start. Moving forward knowing a harsh truth is more likely in the long run than believing a comforting fiction. Cheers, Stan > > Hi all > > "Depression is basically a non acceptance of what is. If you accept what is and you surrender to whatever is coming FULLY without exception… > > Then it becomes an impossibility to be depressed... Just as darkness cannot exist in the presence of light, depression cannot exist in the presence of awareness and acceptance." > > I strongly disagree with these claims. I Actually find these statements not only personally patronising but think it is simplistic and potentially harmful. In every era there reappears a view that sees mental illness as a moral problem. In previous times there were such view as "depression is anger turned inward" or depression is a "repression of sexual impulses". The harm comes about when the patient makes all the effort to "accept what is" or "gets in touch with their anger" and fail to get better they are then blamed by the therapist or by themselves for not really trying, not accepting without exception. > > it also reflects an ongoing struggle between two professions: the psychotherapists and clinical psychologists of one hand and psychopharmachologically oriented psychiatrists on the other. > > I personally have found moment-to-moment acceptance, defusion, mindfulness and moving towards well defined values very helpful and ACT in that way has given me much hope in my life and very useful in managing my own anxiety and depression, I still am taking three medications for the management of my depressive problem, and whether I eventually get myself off those medications (which I genuinely hope I do some day) judging that my that my "failure" to so far reflects my inability to accept what is... well saying it is unhelpful is rather an understatement. In my family there is much depression. I would challenge anyone who holds these views to think about what it is like to have nursed an a parent as an adult in a full episode of melancholic depression with delusions of poverty and who fails to respond to any attempt - psychotherapy wise of medication wise except for ECT to tread carefully before making such trite statements. > > I view ACT as a new direction in psychotherapy which appears very helpful and certainly I have found it more beneficial than previous methods but as an evidence-based therapy it has a lot of work to go before it has established its superiority. And we certainly should not view it as a panacea for conditions such as depression. No therapy to date with much stronger evidence than the ACT community has provided so far has demonstrated such effectiveness - quite the opposite actually. > > Geoffrey > > > "Depression is basically a non acceptance of what is. If you accept what is and you surrender to whatever is coming FULLY without exception… > > > Then it becomes an impossibility to be depressed... Just as darkness cannot exist in the presence of light, depression cannot exist in the presence of awareness and acceptance." > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2012 Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 I am touched by the humility of Stan, and Helena.My cortisol has just dropped (message#19268 Kv). ;)Grateful to be among honest and loving people..LOVEACT > > > > Hi all > > > > "Depression is basically a non acceptance of what is. If you accept what is and you surrender to whatever is coming FULLY without exception… > > > Then it becomes an impossibility to be depressed... Just as darkness cannot exist in the presence of light, depression cannot exist in the presence of awareness and acceptance." > > > > I strongly disagree with these claims. I Actually find these statements not only personally patronising but think it is simplistic and potentially harmful. In every era there reappears a view that sees mental illness as a moral problem. In previous times there were such view as "depression is anger turned inward" or depression is a "repression of sexual impulses". The harm comes about when the patient makes all the effort to "accept what is" or "gets in touch with their anger" and fail to get better they are then blamed by the therapist or by themselves for not really trying, not accepting without exception. > > > > it also reflects an ongoing struggle between two professions: the psychotherapists and clinical psychologists of one hand and psychopharmachologically oriented psychiatrists on the other. > > > > I personally have found moment-to-moment acceptance, defusion, mindfulness and moving towards well defined values very helpful and ACT in that way has given me much hope in my life and very useful in managing my own anxiety and depression, I still am taking three medications for the management of my depressive problem, and whether I eventually get myself off those medications (which I genuinely hope I do some day) judging that my that my "failure" to so far reflects my inability to accept what is... well saying it is unhelpful is rather an understatement. In my family there is much depression. I would challenge anyone who holds these views to think about what it is like to have nursed an a parent as an adult in a full episode of melancholic depression with delusions of poverty and who fails to respond to any attempt - psychotherapy wise of medication wise except for ECT to tread carefully before making such trite statements. > > > > I view ACT as a new direction in psychotherapy which appears very helpful and certainly I have found it more beneficial than previous methods but as an evidence-based therapy it has a lot of work to go before it has established its superiority. And we certainly should not view it as a panacea for conditions such as depression. No therapy to date with much stronger evidence than the ACT community has provided so far has demonstrated such effectiveness - quite the opposite actually. > > > > Geoffrey > > > > > "Depression is basically a non acceptance of what is. If you accept what is and you surrender to whatever is coming FULLY without exception… > > > > Then it becomes an impossibility to be depressed... Just as darkness cannot exist in the presence of light, depression cannot exist in the presence of awareness and acceptance." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > </blockquote>> > > > > > > > > </blockquote>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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