Re: Re: Love is...

June 30, 2012

Dear Detlef,I really appreciate the first two paragraphs of this post. They came to me at a very good time. I, too, need to accept what is and am learning how resistant and resentful I am to being alive. This can sound strange, even to me, because there are other parts of me that want to live and to be and believes (or hopes) there is a way out of my mind's prison. This is why I am drawn to ACT. ACT says, yes, your mind can be a prison and life hurts but you have a resource to bring to the situation that can, possibly, help one lead a meaningful life. In the depths of despair, it is so incredibly hard to keep aware and work at defusion. Your posts, and everyone else's, gives me help, support, ideas, and some inspiration to keep at it. Right now, I'm in the most incredible fear which oscillates with sadness that is so deep I think I will die of a broken heart. My therapist says this goes back to an experience I had as an infant of being left too long outside and I feared I would die. (She believes this actually happened based on a series of detailed and vivid dreams I have and other information about my narcissistic mother who gave birth to 9 children in rapid succession and mentally abused us in the most pernicious of ways.) Anyway, it does feel like I will die if I open up to the pain and if I act on my values. These feelings/thoughts sneak up without notice, especially upon waking, and are extremely difficult for me. I sometimes wish life would just end and I could be done with all the suffering. But I also seem to have, just like the rest of the people on this post, an impulse to live and give it a try, especially now that I have an idea about how my mind works and the tricks it can play on me. What a thought. It's great. But the suffering really sucks.Regarding Maddow, the SCOTUS decision, and the 2nd Amendment (funny comment!), I think it's important to keep our public minds out of this blog. Reason being, our public minds are an entity to themselves and are not being addressed by ACT per se. ACT deals with the private mind. Realizing that we have a public mind is relatively recent and demonstrated by the works of Stanley Milgram in Obedience to Authority and Philip Zimbardo in The Lucifer Effect. In other words, we need to develop an idea and understanding of the public mind before it could be successfully integrated into this discussion. For example, there are many who believe the SCOTUS decision was deeply wrong and strongly support the 2nd amendment. These opinions, just as yours, reflect a belief system programmed into our minds throughout evolution and they need distance, awareness, etc. to fully vet what our minds say and to know whether or not the messages of our public minds are good or reasonable. We can't just take the messaging from the public mind at face value. It needs as much scrutiny and insight and awareness as the private mind. Kathy

We go on, one long day and one, perhaps longer night, after another. We breathe, we live. I don't always want what I've got, most of the time, in fact, but the opposite is just extinction. To me, anyway. And extinction isn't necessarily a physical death. For me it's that zombieness of clenching every part of me against what is. I'm (very slowly) learning to be with what is. So far, whatever hell I've faced, has never been as bad as I imagined it to be. And yes, sometimes I use substances to help me 'unclench', but the difference is I reach a point where I can leave the substance and go on without it. And other times I wallow in the mire.Today has been a so-so day. Some unclenching. Some steps without crutches of any kind. Then the night, and a little help. Wisely, I made sure I didn't have enough booze to become absolutely blotto. Just semi-blotto, if you know what I mean.Just watched Maddow waxing lyrical about the SCOTUS decision. A good day for the US, I think.On an unrelated note, it's occurred to me that the Second Amendment wasn't about 'the right to bear arms', but 'the right to bare arms', ie, the Founding Fathers decided to get jiggy with the skin.Just some thoughts on an Australian Saturday morning.Best wishes to everyone, and especially in the UK, where summers are like our Australian winters,Detlef> > > Many things to many people, I suppose.> > > > I think is right with his aphorism -- Love is the only thing.> > > > I'd even go out on a limb and suggest that most if not all the woes humans encounter can be tracked back to love, or the lack of it, whether it be the love of one for another or, poignantly, the love one may honestly have for oneself. In my own examination of the 'human condition' of various folk I've known, or known about, in my sixty odd years on the planet, the lack of a decent amount of unbridled and unconditional affection looms large in their histories as it does in my own. Most of us have known it: 'I love you, but...'> > > > Facing that 'but' and fighting it is perhaps the toughest battle any of us will ever meet, I think. I don't plan to be a casualty, and I fervently hope you won't be, either. Fighting the good fight may include something as 'silly' as giving ourselves a hug and meaning it. Go ahead. Do it now. You deserve it and always have. That meaningful others couldn't see it is not your fault.> > > > Best wishes to you all,> > > > Detlef> > > > > >>

June 30, 2012

Kathy, I love your post. Lots of good stuff to think about, especially because I can relate - I come from an abusive childhood and much of what you say rings true for me. My neglectful mom also had nine children, ironically.I chafe when anyone suggests what they should or not include in their posts on this listserv (not a blog). How do you know the difference between anyone's public vs. private mind, anyway? The two are often difficult to differentiate at a personal level. I find it best to read everything I read here with a grain of salt, so to speak. That which helps me, I cherish. That which doesn't, I pay scant attention to without needing to chide the writer (sometimes do chide, but always regret when I do).Helena To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 10:02:11 AMSubject: Re: Re: Love is...

Dear Detlef,I really appreciate the first two paragraphs of this post. They came to me at a very good time. I, too, need to accept what is and am learning how resistant and resentful I am to being alive. This can sound strange, even to me, because there are other parts of me that want to live and to be and believes (or hopes) there is a way out of my mind's prison. This is why I am drawn to ACT. ACT says, yes, your mind can be a prison and life hurts but you have a resource to bring to the situation that can, possibly, help one lead a meaningful life. In the depths of despair, it is so incredibly hard to keep aware and work at defusion. Your posts, and everyone else's, gives me help, support, ideas, and some inspiration to keep at it. Right now, I'm in the most incredible fear which oscillates with sadness that is so deep I think I will die of a broken heart. My therapist says this goes back to an experience I had as an infant of being left too long outside and I feared I would die. (She believes this actually happened based on a series of detailed and vivid dreams I have and other information about my narcissistic mother who gave birth to 9 children in rapid succession and mentally abused us in the most pernicious of ways.) Anyway, it does feel like I will die if I open up to the pain and if I act on my values. These feelings/thoughts sneak up without notice, especially upon waking, and are extremely difficult for me. I sometimes wish life would just end and I could be done with all the suffering. But I also seem to have, just like the rest of the people on this post, an impulse to live and give it a try, especially now that I have an idea about how my mind works and the tricks it can play on me. What a thought. It's great. But the suffering really sucks.Regarding Maddow, the SCOTUS decision, and the 2nd Amendment (funny comment!), I think it's important to keep our public minds out of this blog. Reason being, our public minds are an entity to themselves and are not being addressed by ACT per se. ACT deals with the private mind. Realizing that we have a public mind is relatively recent and demonstrated by the works of Stanley Milgram in Obedience to Authority and Philip Zimbardo in The Lucifer Effect. In other words, we need to develop an idea and understanding of the public mind before it could be successfully integrated into this discussion. For example, there are many who believe the SCOTUS decision was deeply wrong and strongly support the 2nd amendment. These opinions, just as yours, reflect a belief system programmed into our minds throughout evolution and they need distance, awareness, etc. to fully vet what our minds say and to know whether or not the messages of our public minds are good or reasonable. We can't just take the messaging from the public mind at face value. It needs as much scrutiny and insight and awareness as the private mind. Kathy

We go on, one long day and one, perhaps longer night, after another. We breathe, we live. I don't always want what I've got, most of the time, in fact, but the opposite is just extinction. To me, anyway. And extinction isn't necessarily a physical death. For me it's that zombieness of clenching every part of me against what is. I'm (very slowly) learning to be with what is. So far, whatever hell I've faced, has never been as bad as I imagined it to be. And yes, sometimes I use substances to help me 'unclench', but the difference is I reach a point where I can leave the substance and go on without it. And other times I wallow in the mire.Today has been a so-so day. Some unclenching. Some steps without crutches of any kind. Then the night, and a little help. Wisely, I made sure I didn't have enough booze to become absolutely blotto. Just semi-blotto, if you know what I mean.Just watched Maddow waxing lyrical about the SCOTUS decision. A good day for the US, I think.On an unrelated note, it's occurred to me that the Second Amendment wasn't about 'the right to bear arms', but 'the right to bare arms', ie, the Founding Fathers decided to get jiggy with the skin.Just some thoughts on an Australian Saturday morning.Best wishes to everyone, and especially in the UK, where summers are like our Australian winters,Detlef> > > Many things to many people, I suppose.> > > > I think is right with his aphorism -- Love is the only thing.> > > > I'd even go out on a limb and suggest that most if not all the woes humans encounter can be tracked back to love, or the lack of it, whether it be the love of one for another or, poignantly, the love one may honestly have for oneself. In my own examination of the 'human condition' of various folk I've known, or known about, in my sixty odd years on the planet, the lack of a decent amount of unbridled and unconditional affection looms large in their histories as it does in my own. Most of us have known it: 'I love you, but...'> > > > Facing that 'but' and fighting it is perhaps the toughest battle any of us will ever meet, I think. I don't plan to be a casualty, and I fervently hope you won't be, either. Fighting the good fight may include something as 'silly' as giving ourselves a hug and meaning it. Go ahead. Do it now. You deserve it and always have. That meaningful others couldn't see it is not your fault.> > > > Best wishes to you all,> > > > Detlef> > > > > >>

June 30, 2012

Hi Helena,Thanks for your directness. It's true that everyone can and should post what they want. And I can tune it out just as we all can. I really didn't mean to chide as much as I hoped to avoid a political discussion, which, BTW, no one picked up on. I thought this was great, so my concern was unfounded, as you pointed out. But I hope you will consider the public mind as something of great interest to all of us. ACT really doesn't address it straight away. And the two books I mention are as ground-breaking as ACT, in my opinion. They deal with the human brain under authority. It is fascinating stuff, but this part of our minds doesn't come out in the private sphere where we retain our moral autonomy. So, with ACT, we deal with all the junk of what it is to be human in our personal relationships - friends, lovers, families, neighbors, etc. In this sphere, we don't go to war with each other or commit other mass atrocities. The "public" mind, that which deals with authority, really does have its own set of programs and problems based on our evolution and it seems to me that that sphere of the human experience needs to be dealt with independently. In other words, we are all participating with these posts (okay, it's not a blog) as individuals in our private lives and relating all our struggles and difficulties as we strive to become aware, to defuse, to expand and to act on values. If we would wish to talk about the merits or demerits of the authority of SCOTUS or Congress or the 2nd Amendment, we'd have to come to that discussion through the lens of the public mind, a field that is under-researched but, again, certainly laid out in Milgram and Zimbardo. So there is awareness but not nearly as much as with the private mind, which is what psychology deals with almost exclusively.I feel I have gotten lost in this explanation and hope it makes some sense as to why I responded the way I did. Public v private mind has been a subject of great interest to me for a long time since I was raised Catholic and saw what passed for good behavior when people were in thrall to a higher authority. So it's something I saw from the time I was very young and could never figure out. When I came across Milgram in particular, a lightbulb went off in my head that offered an explanation for the seemingly confusing behavior. So I've been thinking, reading and studying these very different modes for a while now.Kathy

Kathy, I love your post. Lots of good stuff to think about, especially because I can relate - I come from an abusive childhood and much of what you say rings true for me. My neglectful mom also had nine children, ironically.I chafe when anyone suggests what they should or not include in their posts on this listserv (not a blog). How do you know the difference between anyone's public vs. private mind, anyway? The two are often difficult to differentiate at a personal level. I find it best to read everything I read here with a grain of salt, so to speak. That which helps me, I cherish. That which doesn't, I pay scant attention to without needing to chide the writer (sometimes do chide, but always regret when I do).Helena To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 10:02:11 AMSubject: Re: Re: Love is...

Dear Detlef,I really appreciate the first two paragraphs of this post. They came to me at a very good time. I, too, need to accept what is and am learning how resistant and resentful I am to being alive. This can sound strange, even to me, because there are other parts of me that want to live and to be and believes (or hopes) there is a way out of my mind's prison. This is why I am drawn to ACT. ACT says, yes, your mind can be a prison and life hurts but you have a resource to bring to the situation that can, possibly, help one lead a meaningful life. In the depths of despair, it is so incredibly hard to keep aware and work at defusion. Your posts, and everyone else's, gives me help, support, ideas, and some inspiration to keep at it. Right now, I'm in the most incredible fear which oscillates with sadness that is so deep I think I will die of a broken heart. My therapist says this goes back to an experience I had as an infant of being left too long outside and I feared I would die. (She believes this actually happened based on a series of detailed and vivid dreams I have and other information about my narcissistic mother who gave birth to 9 children in rapid succession and mentally abused us in the most pernicious of ways.) Anyway, it does feel like I will die if I open up to the pain and if I act on my values. These feelings/thoughts sneak up without notice, especially upon waking, and are extremely difficult for me. I sometimes wish life would just end and I could be done with all the suffering. But I also seem to have, just like the rest of the people on this post, an impulse to live and give it a try, especially now that I have an idea about how my mind works and the tricks it can play on me. What a thought. It's great. But the suffering really sucks.Regarding Maddow, the SCOTUS decision, and the 2nd Amendment (funny comment!), I think it's important to keep our public minds out of this blog. Reason being, our public minds are an entity to themselves and are not being addressed by ACT per se. ACT deals with the private mind. Realizing that we have a public mind is relatively recent and demonstrated by the works of Stanley Milgram in Obedience to Authority and Philip Zimbardo in The Lucifer Effect. In other words, we need to develop an idea and understanding of the public mind before it could be successfully integrated into this discussion. For example, there are many who believe the SCOTUS decision was deeply wrong and strongly support the 2nd amendment. These opinions, just as yours, reflect a belief system programmed into our minds throughout evolution and they need distance, awareness, etc. to fully vet what our minds say and to know whether or not the messages of our public minds are good or reasonable. We can't just take the messaging from the public mind at face value. It needs as much scrutiny and insight and awareness as the private mind. Kathy

We go on, one long day and one, perhaps longer night, after another. We breathe, we live. I don't always want what I've got, most of the time, in fact, but the opposite is just extinction. To me, anyway. And extinction isn't necessarily a physical death. For me it's that zombieness of clenching every part of me against what is. I'm (very slowly) learning to be with what is. So far, whatever hell I've faced, has never been as bad as I imagined it to be. And yes, sometimes I use substances to help me 'unclench', but the difference is I reach a point where I can leave the substance and go on without it. And other times I wallow in the mire.Today has been a so-so day. Some unclenching. Some steps without crutches of any kind. Then the night, and a little help. Wisely, I made sure I didn't have enough booze to become absolutely blotto. Just semi-blotto, if you know what I mean.Just watched Maddow waxing lyrical about the SCOTUS decision. A good day for the US, I think.On an unrelated note, it's occurred to me that the Second Amendment wasn't about 'the right to bear arms', but 'the right to bare arms', ie, the Founding Fathers decided to get jiggy with the skin.Just some thoughts on an Australian Saturday morning.Best wishes to everyone, and especially in the UK, where summers are like our Australian winters,Detlef> > > Many things to many people, I suppose.> > > > I think is right with his aphorism -- Love is the only thing.> > > > I'd even go out on a limb and suggest that most if not all the woes humans encounter can be tracked back to love, or the lack of it, whether it be the love of one for another or, poignantly, the love one may honestly have for oneself. In my own examination of the 'human condition' of various folk I've known, or known about, in my sixty odd years on the planet, the lack of a decent amount of unbridled and unconditional affection looms large in their histories as it does in my own. Most of us have known it: 'I love you, but...'> > > > Facing that 'but' and fighting it is perhaps the toughest battle any of us will ever meet, I think. I don't plan to be a casualty, and I fervently hope you won't be, either. Fighting the good fight may include something as 'silly' as giving ourselves a hug and meaning it. Go ahead. Do it now. You deserve it and always have. That meaningful others couldn't see it is not your fault.> > > > Best wishes to you all,> > > > Detlef> > > > > >>

June 30, 2012

Kathy, your explanation about "public mind" was clear and made perfect sense to me. I realized right after hitting send that I was doing exactly what I pointed out to you as "chafing" to me: critiquing the contents of someone else's post! I bet you caught that, too - so thanks for being generous enough to not mention it in your reply.I had never considered the concept of "public mind vs. private mind" and appreciate your introducing it to me. In light of your brief explanation, I can see how important it is to make that distinction. I looked up the books you mentioned on Amazon.com and have placed them on my wish list - hoping to read them soon. I am constantly amazed at what I learn on this list, both pertaining to ACT and sometimes not. Thanks again for opening my mind to something I had not considered before. I'm hoping to hear more from you here!HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 12:53:28 PMSubject: Re: Re: Love is...

Hi Helena,Thanks for your directness. It's true that everyone can and should post what they want. And I can tune it out just as we all can. I really didn't mean to chide as much as I hoped to avoid a political discussion, which, BTW, no one picked up on. I thought this was great, so my concern was unfounded, as you pointed out. But I hope you will consider the public mind as something of great interest to all of us. ACT really doesn't address it straight away. And the two books I mention are as ground-breaking as ACT, in my opinion. They deal with the human brain under authority. It is fascinating stuff, but this part of our minds doesn't come out in the private sphere where we retain our moral autonomy. So, with ACT, we deal with all the junk of what it is to be human in our personal relationships - friends, lovers, families, neighbors, etc. In this sphere, we don't go to war with each other or commit other mass atrocities. The "public" mind, that which deals with authority, really does have its own set of programs and problems based on our evolution and it seems to me that that sphere of the human experience needs to be dealt with independently. In other words, we are all participating with these posts (okay, it's not a blog) as individuals in our private lives and relating all our struggles and difficulties as we strive to become aware, to defuse, to expand and to act on values. If we would wish to talk about the merits or demerits of the authority of SCOTUS or Congress or the 2nd Amendment, we'd have to come to that discussion through the lens of the public mind, a field that is under-researched but, again, certainly laid out in Milgram and Zimbardo. So there is awareness but not nearly as much as with the private mind, which is what psychology deals with almost exclusively.I feel I have gotten lost in this explanation and hope it makes some sense as to why I responded the way I did. Public v private mind has been a subject of great interest to me for a long time since I was raised Catholic and saw what passed for good behavior when people were in thrall to a higher authority. So it's something I saw from the time I was very young and could never figure out. When I came across Milgram in particular, a lightbulb went off in my head that offered an explanation for the seemingly confusing behavior. So I've been thinking, reading and studying these very different modes for a while now.Kathy

Kathy, I love your post. Lots of good stuff to think about, especially because I can relate - I come from an abusive childhood and much of what you say rings true for me. My neglectful mom also had nine children, ironically.I chafe when anyone suggests what they should or not include in their posts on this listserv (not a blog). How do you know the difference between anyone's public vs. private mind, anyway? The two are often difficult to differentiate at a personal level. I find it best to read everything I read here with a grain of salt, so to speak. That which helps me, I cherish. That which doesn't, I pay scant attention to without needing to chide the writer (sometimes do chide, but always regret when I do).Helena To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 10:02:11 AMSubject: Re: Re: Love is...

Dear Detlef,I really appreciate the first two paragraphs of this post. They came to me at a very good time. I, too, need to accept what is and am learning how resistant and resentful I am to being alive. This can sound strange, even to me, because there are other parts of me that want to live and to be and believes (or hopes) there is a way out of my mind's prison. This is why I am drawn to ACT. ACT says, yes, your mind can be a prison and life hurts but you have a resource to bring to the situation that can, possibly, help one lead a meaningful life. In the depths of despair, it is so incredibly hard to keep aware and work at defusion. Your posts, and everyone else's, gives me help, support, ideas, and some inspiration to keep at it. Right now, I'm in the most incredible fear which oscillates with sadness that is so deep I think I will die of a broken heart. My therapist says this goes back to an experience I had as an infant of being left too long outside and I feared I would die. (She believes this actually happened based on a series of detailed and vivid dreams I have and other information about my narcissistic mother who gave birth to 9 children in rapid succession and mentally abused us in the most pernicious of ways.) Anyway, it does feel like I will die if I open up to the pain and if I act on my values. These feelings/thoughts sneak up without notice, especially upon waking, and are extremely difficult for me. I sometimes wish life would just end and I could be done with all the suffering. But I also seem to have, just like the rest of the people on this post, an impulse to live and give it a try, especially now that I have an idea about how my mind works and the tricks it can play on me. What a thought. It's great. But the suffering really sucks.Regarding Maddow, the SCOTUS decision, and the 2nd Amendment (funny comment!), I think it's important to keep our public minds out of this blog. Reason being, our public minds are an entity to themselves and are not being addressed by ACT per se. ACT deals with the private mind. Realizing that we have a public mind is relatively recent and demonstrated by the works of Stanley Milgram in Obedience to Authority and Philip Zimbardo in The Lucifer Effect. In other words, we need to develop an idea and understanding of the public mind before it could be successfully integrated into this discussion. For example, there are many who believe the SCOTUS decision was deeply wrong and strongly support the 2nd amendment. These opinions, just as yours, reflect a belief system programmed into our minds throughout evolution and they need distance, awareness, etc. to fully vet what our minds say and to know whether or not the messages of our public minds are good or reasonable. We can't just take the messaging from the public mind at face value. It needs as much scrutiny and insight and awareness as the private mind. Kathy

We go on, one long day and one, perhaps longer night, after another. We breathe, we live. I don't always want what I've got, most of the time, in fact, but the opposite is just extinction. To me, anyway. And extinction isn't necessarily a physical death. For me it's that zombieness of clenching every part of me against what is. I'm (very slowly) learning to be with what is. So far, whatever hell I've faced, has never been as bad as I imagined it to be. And yes, sometimes I use substances to help me 'unclench', but the difference is I reach a point where I can leave the substance and go on without it. And other times I wallow in the mire.Today has been a so-so day. Some unclenching. Some steps without crutches of any kind. Then the night, and a little help. Wisely, I made sure I didn't have enough booze to become absolutely blotto. Just semi-blotto, if you know what I mean.Just watched Maddow waxing lyrical about the SCOTUS decision. A good day for the US, I think.On an unrelated note, it's occurred to me that the Second Amendment wasn't about 'the right to bear arms', but 'the right to bare arms', ie, the Founding Fathers decided to get jiggy with the skin.Just some thoughts on an Australian Saturday morning.Best wishes to everyone, and especially in the UK, where summers are like our Australian winters,Detlef> > > Many things to many people, I suppose.> > > > I think is right with his aphorism -- Love is the only thing.> > > > I'd even go out on a limb and suggest that most if not all the woes humans encounter can be tracked back to love, or the lack of it, whether it be the love of one for another or, poignantly, the love one may honestly have for oneself. In my own examination of the 'human condition' of various folk I've known, or known about, in my sixty odd years on the planet, the lack of a decent amount of unbridled and unconditional affection looms large in their histories as it does in my own. Most of us have known it: 'I love you, but...'> > > > Facing that 'but' and fighting it is perhaps the toughest battle any of us will ever meet, I think. I don't plan to be a casualty, and I fervently hope you won't be, either. Fighting the good fight may include something as 'silly' as giving ourselves a hug and meaning it. Go ahead. Do it now. You deserve it and always have. That meaningful others couldn't see it is not your fault.> > > > Best wishes to you all,> > > > Detlef> > > > > >>

June 30, 2012

Hello Helena and Experiential2012,Helena, thank you very much for your kind e-mail in response to mine. I'd been reading your posts and was very impressed by you. Now I am even more. Thanks very much.To both of you and anyone else who is interested, here is a good summary of The Lucifer Effect by Philip Zimbardo.http://www.lucifereffect.com/about_synopsis.htm. Once you grasp the main insight, you begin to see it in operation everywhere. So please read it and let me know what you think.As for me, my insight to the phenomenon of ceding moral autonomy to something or someone else came from two sources. The first inkling came from religion when I was 6 and 7 years old and the 2nd was from my narcissistic mother who could easily manipulate people to feel and think things that were simply not true. I am not a person of faith, so my instruction in Catholicism was very painful for me. I felt like everyone was lying to me. I was told I simply needed to wait for the Sacrament of the Eucharist and I would discover the truth. So I took my First Confession very, very seriously as I wanted to be a good person. I suspended my disbelief until the day of my First Communion when friends and family gathered and I had a white dress and veil and new shoes, something quite special for a 2nd-generation immigrant kid with nine children in the family who only ever wore hand-me-downs. I was quite alert walking down that aisle and I remember it like it was yesterday. Once the priest put the host in my mouth and I knew instantly it was dry, thin bread, I felt devastated. I put my head down so no one would see my face. I said to myself as I took one slow step at a time in my shiny, white patent leather shoes, "Kathy, everyone in this church is lying to you. Now what are you going to do?" Photographs of me from that day show the confusion, sadness, fear, and forced smile. My Uncle kept telling me to smile, what was I so unhappy about? I wanted to take my veil off as soon as we got home from church but he chastised me in front of everyone saying that the next time I'd get to wear a veil would be my wedding day. Funny. I didn't wear a veil at my wedding, either. And he drove me in his fancy car with all special treatment in the back seat for my big veil and dress which I didn't have on. I think now I planned it this way without my really knowing it. Sorry this is so long but this story is so telling of me and my own nature. And also my relationship to authority, which was, for all intents and purposes, non existent. I was born with a sense of myself that I was in charge and others could attempt to influence but they could not control. Control was a deep violation to my young sense of self. The only Cardinal Virtue I could never remember, and this is totally true and makes me laugh, now, is Obedience.So perhaps I was in a good position given that I didn't get involved in religion to observe the difference in behavior and the contradictions of religion. It slowly dawned on me as I studied history that Christianity was the major source of war and violence throughout history; that people could kill and maim and rob each other in the name of God or Jesus or Yahweh, behavior that would rarely happen in their private lives. Then, in the 8th grade when I learned about Hitler and the Holocaust, I wondered who had done all the killing. This wasn't religion but the war and the mass killing was the same. And it was among people who had for many years lived peaceably together. What happened? Certainly Hitler himself could not have done it. But no one, and I mean no one I ever talked to, seemed interested in the question as to who did all the killing in Germany. A kind of blindness about the tens of thousands of people, mostly soldiers, who committed unspeakable crimes all came to be focused on one man. I thought it a kind of madness or amnesia or mass denial and felt very disturbed that I could ask so many people, even Germans living in Germany, who did all the killing and how could it have happened? Apparently, our public minds don't want to know.So, the phenomenon of this seamless loss of moral agency needs to be brought out more. Apparently, we are capable as a species when using our public minds of falling into our middle and lower brains where power and hierarchy reside, and are not even aware that our cerebral cortex is no longer in charge but rather some authority (fill in the blank). This is how and why we are so savage with each other under authority. Power and hierarchy reside in the middle/lower brain of the public mind and are very, very dangerous when no one is home to watch.I really am sorry and embarrassed that this post is so long. Telling the story of my First Communion to you, people who I know will accept and not judge me, is truly wonderful. Thanks very much for that. I hope you enjoy the link to Zimbardo.Kathy

Hi Kathy,

I really do like this big picture stuff. I learned about Stanley Milgram (his experiment) in my mid 30's and just like you it opened up a world I'd never seen or even considered. The 'bystander effect' did the same thing to me, they gave an example of a lady who 'could' have been saved but wasn't as a result of inaction by her fellow humans. I felt like crying for her. For decades (as a kid, and beyond) I wondered why no-one helped me out of my situation, the bystander effect held a clue for me.

I've never even heard of the "Lucifer Effect", can you tell me more about what you learnt from that?

> > >

> > > > Many things to many people, I suppose.

> > > >

> > > > I think is right with his aphorism -- Love is the only thing.

> > > >

> > > > I'd even go out on a limb and suggest that most if not all the woes humans encounter can be tracked back to love, or the lack of it, whether it be the love of one for another or, poignantly, the love one may honestly have for oneself. In my own examination of the 'human condition' of various folk I've known, or known about, in my sixty odd years on the planet, the lack of a decent amount of unbridled and unconditional affection looms large in their histories as it does in my own. Most of us have known it: 'I love you, but...'

> > > >

> > > > Facing that 'but' and fighting it is perhaps the toughest battle any of us will ever meet, I think. I don't plan to be a casualty, and I fervently hope you won't be, either. Fighting the good fight may include something as 'silly' as giving ourselves a hug and meaning it. Go ahead. Do it now. You deserve it and always have. That meaningful others couldn't see it is not your fault.

> > > >

> > > > Best wishes to you all,

> > > >

> > > > Detlef

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

July 1, 2012

Hi ,Thank you for your response and for sending the link. In a way, you make the case for public v private mind with this video. The crowd is definitely engaged with itself and the music, and the individuals seem melded into each other. So, you could say the people have "lost" of sense of themselves as individuals. And, yes, their behavior seems somewhat tribal and primal. However, nothing bad is happening to anyone. And this is the salient feature at work in the public mind we are trying to identify. The people in the crowd are not aggressing against any one or any other group. There really is no authority in this situation that is filling the void the audience may have created and which is telling them to do something which they would most certainly obey if it were there to fill the gap they have momentarily surrendered.So this is still the private mind at work. The musicians have no authority and are not telling the audience to do something. If the group became fearful for some reason, they might stampede and there may be a case or two of individuals committing aggressive acts. But this is still not the public mind but rather the contagion of fear that can occur in groups. It's important to realize that you need two things for the public mind to come into play: a leader (the authority) and a willing follower. Both are necessary. One great historical example where it is easy to see the difference between the behavior of the public and the private mind was the suspension of the violence caused by the authority of religion in the founding of the United States. The implementation of the First Amendment made religion a private affair by law, and it was not allowed to become a public or political one. Religious freedom meant you could seek your own spiritual life without fear of persecution from other religious groups or the state. In fact, in this case, the state would protect you. So the violence that sprang from religion came to an abrupt halt here in the United States even as religion flourished - many different types. This is really, really incredible when you think about it. Kathy

Hey Kathy....it occured to me...it doesen't take war, religion or autonomous power...look at music...this is a song that has followed me....check this out live, with a respondent audience...

IS A CROWD...what do we do with all the agression...."...if you can relate say HEH....." I don't know...as everyone I suppose......... To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, 1 July 2012 7:56 AM Subject: Re: Re: Love is...

Hello Helena and Experiential2012,Helena, thank you very much for your kind e-mail in response to mine. I'd been reading your posts and was very impressed by you. Now I am even more. Thanks very much.To both of you and anyone else who is interested, here is a good summary of The Lucifer Effect by Philip Zimbardo.http://www.lucifereffect.com/about_synopsis.htm. Once you grasp the main insight, you begin to see it in operation everywhere. So please read it and let me know what you think.As for me, my insight to the phenomenon of ceding moral autonomy to something or someone else came from two sources. The first inkling came from religion when I was 6 and 7 years old and the 2nd was from my narcissistic mother who could easily manipulate people to feel and think things that were simply not true. I am not a person of faith, so my

instruction in Catholicism was very painful for me. I felt like everyone was lying to me. I was told I simply needed to wait for the Sacrament of the Eucharist and I would discover the truth. So I took my First Confession very, very seriously as I wanted to be a good person. I suspended my disbelief until the day of my First Communion when friends and family gathered and I had a white dress and veil and new shoes, something quite special for a 2nd-generation immigrant kid with nine children in the family who only ever wore hand-me-downs. I was quite alert walking down that aisle and I remember it like it was yesterday. Once the priest put the host in my mouth and I knew instantly it was dry, thin bread, I felt devastated. I put my head down so no one would see my face. I said to myself as I took one slow step at a time in my shiny, white patent leather shoes, "Kathy, everyone in this church is lying to you. Now what are you going to do?" Photographs of

me from that day show the confusion, sadness, fear, and forced smile. My Uncle kept telling me to smile, what was I so unhappy about? I wanted to take my veil off as soon as we got home from church but he chastised me in front of everyone saying that the next time I'd get to wear a veil would be my wedding day. Funny. I didn't wear a veil at my wedding, either. And he drove me in his fancy car with all special treatment in the back seat for my big veil and dress which I didn't have on. I think now I planned it this way without my really knowing it. Sorry this is so long but this story is so telling of me and my own nature. And also my relationship to authority, which was, for all intents and purposes, non existent. I was born with a sense of myself that I was in charge and others could attempt to influence but they could not control. Control was a deep violation to my young sense of self. The only Cardinal Virtue I could never remember, and this is

totally true and makes me laugh, now, is Obedience.So perhaps I was in a good position given that I didn't get involved in religion to observe the difference in behavior and the contradictions of religion. It slowly dawned on me as I studied history that Christianity was the major source of war and violence throughout history; that people could kill and maim and rob each other in the name of God or Jesus or Yahweh, behavior that would rarely happen in their private lives. Then, in the 8th grade when I learned about Hitler and the Holocaust, I wondered who had done all the killing. This wasn't religion but the war and the mass killing was the same. And it was among people who had for many years lived peaceably together. What happened? Certainly Hitler himself could not have done it. But no one, and I mean no one I ever talked to, seemed interested in the question as to who did all the killing in Germany. A kind of

blindness about the tens of thousands of people, mostly soldiers, who committed unspeakable crimes all came to be focused on one man. I thought it a kind of madness or amnesia or mass denial and felt very disturbed that I could ask so many people, even Germans living in Germany, who did all the killing and how could it have happened? Apparently, our public minds don't want to know.So, the phenomenon of this seamless loss of moral agency needs to be brought out more. Apparently, we are capable as a species when using our public minds of falling into our middle and lower brains where power and hierarchy reside, and are not even aware that our cerebral cortex is no longer in charge but rather some authority (fill in the blank). This is how and why we are so savage with each other under authority. Power and hierarchy reside in the middle/lower brain of the public mind and are very, very dangerous when no one is home to

watch.I really am sorry and embarrassed that this post is so long. Telling the story of my First Communion to you, people who I know will accept and not judge me, is truly wonderful. Thanks very much for that. I hope you enjoy the link to Zimbardo.Kathy

Hi Kathy,

I really do like this big picture stuff. I learned about Stanley Milgram (his experiment) in my mid 30's and just like you it opened up a world I'd never seen or even considered. The 'bystander effect' did the same thing to me, they gave an example of a lady who 'could' have been saved but wasn't as a result of inaction by her fellow humans. I felt like crying for her. For decades (as a kid, and beyond) I wondered why no-one helped me out of my situation, the bystander effect held a clue for me.

I've never even heard of the "Lucifer Effect", can you tell me more about what you learnt from that?

> > >

> > > > Many things to many people, I suppose.

> > > >

> > > > I think is right with his aphorism -- Love is the only thing.

> > > >

> > > > I'd even go out on a limb and suggest that most if not all the woes humans encounter can be tracked back to love, or the lack of it, whether it be the love of one for another or, poignantly, the love one may honestly have for oneself. In my own examination of the 'human condition' of various folk I've known, or known about, in my sixty odd years on the planet, the lack of a decent amount of unbridled and unconditional affection looms large in their histories as it does in my own. Most of us have known it: 'I love you, but...'

> > > >

> > > > Facing that 'but' and fighting it is perhaps the toughest battle any of us will ever meet, I think. I don't plan to be a casualty, and I fervently hope you won't be, either. Fighting the good fight may include something as 'silly' as giving ourselves a hug and meaning it. Go ahead. Do it now. You deserve it and always have. That meaningful others couldn't see it is not your fault.

> > > >

> > > > Best wishes to you all,

> > > >

> > > > Detlef

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

July 1, 2012

Thanks. Yes, it seems pretty universal, this idea of belonging/not belonging... It's also fairly apparent to me it's not something unique to folks with addiction issues. If the addiction is active, the suffering will be more acute, for sure.And the acting on that suffering in ways that are distracting/destructive will be too. I guess I do get frustrated with the notion of a before and after life deal that refers to as well as many

others I hear who tell their story.That's just not my story today. The notion of not fitting in my skin did organize many of my thoughts, color too much of my thinking and relationships. But true too, I have had many many juicy, lovely openings in my life from day one. I had brave moments of joy where I opted for values over comfort. I have known love deeply in my early years and have the opportunity to made a difference in people's lives--even during thethroes of addiction. So for me it's not like I had some single defining moment, or where things were dark and bleak and then the light came on and everything changed from that day forward. I love this forum.Best to all,Terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2012 2:56 PM Subject: Re: Love is...

Good morning Terry,

Unfortunately it is not uncommon for people to feel like they don't fit in. There are many of us on this list alone. Look at Kaivey, he has said he feels he doesn't fit in, gosh I seem to say it contantly and I haven't heard anything of Russel in ages (I miss Russel).

We all seem to experience 'not fitting in'. I think the important thing, as everyone says, is to not give up and keep coming back regardless.

I wish you well and its good to hear from you.

>

> Ã‚

> >Many things to many people, I suppose.

> >

> >I think is right with his aphorism -- Love is the only thing.

> >

> >I'd even go out on a limb and suggest that most if not all the woes humans encounter can be tracked back to love, or the lack of it, whether it be the love of one for another or, poignantly, the love one may honestly have for oneself. In my own examination of the 'human condition' of various folk I've known, or known about, in my sixty odd years on the planet, the lack of a decent amount of unbridled and unconditional affection looms large in their histories as it does in my own. Most of us have known it: 'I love you, but...'

> >

> >Facing that 'but' and fighting it is perhaps the toughest battle any of us will ever meet, I think. I don't plan to be a casualty, and I fervently hope you won't be, either. Fighting the good fight may include something

> as 'silly' as giving ourselves a hug and meaning it. Go ahead. Do it now. You deserve it and always have. That meaningful others couldn't see it is not your fault.

> >

> >Best wishes to you all,

> >

> >Detlef

> >

>

July 2, 2012

I do identify 1985 as a watershed year. But where in my post did I say anything remotely like: "things were dark and bleak and then the light came on and everything changed from that day forward"In fact, the post is about darkness visiting, not about everything has been awesome since 1985.What did change in 1985 was that I started to cultivate a practice that has transformed my life. Central to that practice, for me, central, was letting go of drugs and alcohol. That did happen in 1985 and, for me, that was a big deal. The practice itself has grown and evolved over time, but that piece has remained. Of course, I had many lovely experiences before 1985; however, I consistently screwed them and myself into the ground. I had a beautiful daughter, who loved me. And I chose getting high over her. I had a wife who loved me. I chose getting high over her. I started school in 1978, did very well in fact, and chose getting high over that. I had some really cool cars. I wrecked them high. I had the vigor and possibility of youth and I cooked my liver with booze and Hep C from shooting dope. I had another wife who loved me. I chose getting high over her too. There were many spots of loveliness, but I could sustain nothing.Drinking and drugging were hugely destructive avoidance strategies for me. Letting them go was the centerpiece of a practice that began in 1985. In my opinion, for me, that was critical for meaningful sustained life change. For others? Who knows? Me? I have not been to jail, abandoned any children, dropped out of school, got divorced, been fired from a job, been hospitalized for an overdose, car accident, or physical beating, been evicted, been homeless, been violent, the list could go on, since 1985. So yes, I mark that as a big year.Getting high is not as destructive for some as it was for me, clearly not. In my opinion, and what I say in The Wisdom to Know the Difference, is that quitting is a personal decision. Each person has to check and see how it works for them. I encourage people to give it a chance, and not just letting go of big avoidance. Persisting in a pattern of growing a life that could be loved.I made that choice in 1985. It was not just a choice about getting high though. It was a choice to live. Come what may, and come it did....good and ill. My path has not been straight, but that part has. I have found other ways to screw things up since then. I can be sullen, self-involved, and resentful. And certainly have paid a high price on a number of occasions. In 1987 I treated my big brother Randy with contempt and judgement and buried him that year, a suicide, without the chance to tell him that I loved him. I carry still sadness from that bit of prideful foolishness.So 1985 was not a watershed because everything changed that year. It is because everything started to change that year, because change became possible that year. And, 27 years of reasonably persistent engagement has paid extraordinary dividends. It has not ended pain. It has not ended darkness. It has simply given me something different to do when darkness and pain do come.My facebook status yesterday:"Sitting on my back porch in my rocking chair, a fine cup of coffee in hand, having finally found the perfect strings for my 2001 NS42 CE (after owning it for 5 years), juvenile robins bathing in Dianna's bubbling fountain, southern air thick and warm and moist this morning, full of bird song, feeling an odd sense of quiet right next to my sadness and disquiet. I feel wonder about that sadness and disquiet, about my capacity for disquiet even in the midst of my many blessings, in the midst of my slice of grace. I will sit and see if I can allow some quiet to seep into that pool of disquiet this morning. I will reflect a bit on attachment and letting go, let shoulders soften, and know that if all were lost today I will have been blessed for having a life in which such things can be lost."A number of my posts on this list have been about the visits of darkness, sadness, and a sense of hopelessness. My last post was about that. In fact, I am in the thick of it at this very moment. So, I am perplexed about this:I guess I do get frustrated with the notion of a before and after life deal that refers to as well as many others I hear who tell their story.That's just not my story todayWho said it was or should be your story? My story is what it is. Mine. No cartoon before and after story here. A story of persistence. And, days like this one, with abundant inexplicable sadness.best,k

Thanks. Yes, it seems pretty universal, this idea of belonging/not belonging... It's also fairly apparent to me it's not something unique to folks with addiction issues. If the addiction is active, the suffering will be more acute, for sure.And the acting on that suffering in ways that are distracting/destructive will be too. I guess I do get frustrated with the notion of a before and after life deal that refers to as well as many

others I hear who tell their story.That's just not my story today. The notion of not fitting in my skin did organize many of my thoughts, color too much of my thinking and relationships. But true too, I have had many many juicy, lovely openings in my life from day one. I had brave moments of joy where I opted for values over comfort. I have known love deeply in my early years and have the opportunity to made a difference in people's lives--even during thethroes of addiction. So for me it's not like I had some single defining moment, or where things were dark and bleak and then the light came on and everything changed from that day forward. I love this forum.Best to all,Terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2012 2:56 PM Subject: Re: Love is...

Good morning Terry,

Unfortunately it is not uncommon for people to feel like they don't fit in. There are many of us on this list alone. Look at Kaivey, he has said he feels he doesn't fit in, gosh I seem to say it contantly and I haven't heard anything of Russel in ages (I miss Russel).

We all seem to experience 'not fitting in'. I think the important thing, as everyone says, is to not give up and keep coming back regardless.

I wish you well and its good to hear from you.

>

> Â

> >Many things to many people, I suppose.

> >

> >I think is right with his aphorism -- Love is the only thing.

> >

> >I'd even go out on a limb and suggest that most if not all the woes humans encounter can be tracked back to love, or the lack of it, whether it be the love of one for another or, poignantly, the love one may honestly have for oneself. In my own examination of the 'human condition' of various folk I've known, or known about, in my sixty odd years on the planet, the lack of a decent amount of unbridled and unconditional affection looms large in their histories as it does in my own. Most of us have known it: 'I love you, but...'

> >

> >Facing that 'but' and fighting it is perhaps the toughest battle any of us will ever meet, I think. I don't plan to be a casualty, and I fervently hope you won't be, either. Fighting the good fight may include something

> as 'silly' as giving ourselves a hug and meaning it. Go ahead. Do it now. You deserve it and always have. That meaningful others couldn't see it is not your fault.

> >

> >Best wishes to you all,

> >

> >Detlef

> >

>

July 2, 2012

Hi , I want to sit with this and respond more fully later, but just wanted to say thanks so much for elaborating.Hoping this is useful for the group in some fashion or another as well.best,terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 2, 2012 5:30 AM Subject: Re: Re: Love is...

I do identify 1985 as a watershed year. But where in my post did I say anything remotely like: "things were dark and bleak and then the light came on and everything changed from that day forward"In fact, the post is about darkness visiting, not about everything has been awesome since 1985.What did change in 1985 was that I started to cultivate a practice that has transformed my life. Central to that practice, for me, central, was letting go of drugs and alcohol. That did happen in 1985 and, for me, that was a big deal. The practice itself has grown and evolved over time, but that piece has remained. Of course, I had many lovely

experiences before 1985; however, I consistently screwed them and myself into the ground. I had a beautiful daughter, who loved me. And I chose getting high over her. I had a wife who loved me. I chose getting high over her. I started school in 1978, did very well in fact, and chose getting high over that. I had some really cool cars. I wrecked them high. I had the vigor and possibility of youth and I cooked my liver with booze and Hep C from shooting dope. I had another wife who loved me. I chose getting high over her too. There were many spots of loveliness, but I could sustain nothing.Drinking and drugging were hugely destructive avoidance strategies for me. Letting them go was the centerpiece of a practice that began in 1985. In my opinion, for me, that was critical for meaningful sustained life change. For others? Who knows? Me? I have not been to jail, abandoned any children, dropped out of school, got divorced, been fired from a job, been hospitalized for an overdose, car accident, or physical beating, been evicted, been homeless, been violent, the list could go

on, since 1985. So yes, I mark that as a big year.Getting high is not as destructive for some as it was for me, clearly not. In my opinion, and what I say in The Wisdom to Know the Difference, is that quitting is a personal decision. Each person has to check and see how it works for them. I encourage people to give it a chance, and not just letting go of big avoidance. Persisting in a pattern of growing a life that could be loved.I made that choice in 1985. It was not just a choice about getting high though. It was a choice to live. Come what may, and come it did....good and ill. My path has not been straight, but that part has. I have found other ways to screw things up since then. I can be sullen, self-involved, and resentful. And certainly have paid a high price on a number of occasions. In 1987 I treated my big brother Randy with contempt and judgement and buried him that year, a suicide, without the chance to tell him that I loved him. I carry still sadness from that bit of prideful foolishness.So 1985 was not a watershed because everything changed that year. It is because everything started to change that year, because change became possible that year. And, 27 years of reasonably persistent engagement has paid extraordinary dividends. It has not ended pain. It has not ended darkness. It has simply given me something different to do when darkness and pain do come.My facebook status yesterday:"Sitting on my back porch in my rocking chair, a

fine cup of coffee in hand, having finally found the perfect strings for my 2001 NS42 CE (after owning it for 5 years), juvenile robins bathing in Dianna's bubbling fountain, southern air thick and warm and moist this morning, full of bird song, feeling an odd sense of quiet right next to my sadness and disquiet. I feel wonder about that sadness and disquiet, about my capacity for disquiet even in the midst of my many blessings, in the midst of my slice of grace. I will sit and see if I can allow some quiet to seep into that pool of disquiet this morning. I will reflect a bit on attachment and letting go, let shoulders soften, and know that if all were lost

today I will have been blessed for having a life in which such things can be lost."A number of my posts on this list have been about the visits of darkness, sadness, and a sense of hopelessness. My last post was about that. In fact, I am in the thick of it at this very moment. So, I am perplexed about this:I guess I do get frustrated with the notion of a before and after life deal that refers to as well as many others I hear who tell their story.That's just not my story todayWho said it was or should be your story? My story is what it is. Mine. No cartoon before and after story here. A story of persistence. And, days like this one, with abundant inexplicable sadness.best,k

Thanks. Yes, it seems pretty universal, this idea of belonging/not belonging... It's also fairly apparent to me it's not something unique to folks with addiction issues. If the addiction is active, the suffering will be more acute, for sure.And the acting on that suffering in ways that are distracting/destructive will be too. I

guess I do get frustrated with the notion of a before and after life deal that refers to as well as many

others I hear who tell their story.That's just not my story today. The notion of not fitting in my skin did organize many of my thoughts, color too much of my thinking and relationships. But true too, I have had many many juicy, lovely openings in my life from day one. I had brave moments of joy where I opted for values over comfort. I have known love deeply in my early years and have the opportunity to made a difference in people's lives--even during thethroes of addiction. So for me it's not like I had some single defining moment, or where things were dark and bleak and then the light came on and everything changed from that day forward. I love this forum.Best to all,Terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2012 2:56 PM Subject: Re: Love is...

Good morning Terry,

Unfortunately it is not uncommon for people to feel like they don't fit in. There are many of us on this list alone. Look at Kaivey, he has said he feels he doesn't fit in, gosh I seem to say it contantly and I haven't heard anything of Russel in ages (I miss Russel).

We all seem to experience 'not fitting in'. I think the important thing, as everyone says, is to not give up and keep coming back regardless.

I wish you well and its good to hear from you.

>

> Ã‚

> >Many things to many people, I suppose.

> >

> >I think is right with his aphorism -- Love is the only thing.

> >

> >I'd even go out on a limb and suggest that most if not all the woes humans encounter can be tracked back to love, or the lack of it, whether it be the love of one for another or, poignantly, the love one may honestly have for oneself. In my own examination of the 'human condition' of various folk I've known, or known about, in my sixty odd years on the planet, the lack of a decent amount of unbridled and unconditional affection looms large in their histories as it does in my own. Most of us have known it: 'I love you, but...'

> >

> >Facing that 'but' and fighting it is perhaps the toughest battle any of us will ever meet, I think. I don't plan to be a casualty, and I fervently hope you won't be, either. Fighting the good fight may include something

> as 'silly' as giving ourselves a hug and meaning it. Go ahead. Do it now. You deserve it and always have. That meaningful others couldn't see it is not your fault.

> >

> >Best wishes to you all,

> >

> >Detlef

> >

>

July 2, 2012

Here's my experience with this public/private thing:During the run-up to the 2010 midterm elections in the US, I was dimly aware that the country was about to elect the biggest gang of mendacious clowns we'd seen since before the Civil War--and I was too consumed by my own inner agony to give it much thought. The mendacity and clownishness of the soon-to-be-elected officials didn't add to my anxiety appreciably and if a group of wise and compassionate leaders had been elected in their places, I doubt that would have alleviated my suffering much at all.

I'm sure that at the same moment, somewhere in Red State America there was another person whose politics were diametrically opposed to mine but who was likewise suffering hellish anxiety attacks. I would be very surprised if seeing his team win that November gave him any lasting relief either.

Best,Jim

Thank you for your post, Kathy. While I don't agree with your " public/private " mind dichotomy, I do appreciate your your response. We all have our opinions, and often -- if you're at all like me -- we wish that people would keep their opinions to themselves. I did exactly that for most of my life; I kept quiet and minded my own business. It's only the relative anonymity of the internet that has given me the courage to actually speak out on certain matters. I know full well that there are many people who disagree with my views. Many of them have accepted exactly the same license as I did to say so. Me, I think all contributions are equally valid/invalid. After all, I would hope that people who have been around for at least as long as I have would be able to tell the difference between a fact and an opinion.

You mentioned in another post that you were raised Catholic, but are no longer a person of faith. I say welcome! As a balm to troubled minds religion has been largely a dismal failure, in my opinion. I was baptized into and raised in the Catholic faith, and found it wanting almost from when I was able to think coherently. However, that's not to say I dismiss out of hand all aspects of religions, for there are nuggets of wisdom to be found in most if not all of them. For instance, the notion of a " state of grace " intrigues me, as does the idea of Nirvana (not the band ).

My comments regarding recent events in the US were meant sincerely. I've never been to America, but grew up exposed to American culture via television and all the other cultural artifacts the US produces. And I am still exposed to them even now -- that's how I became aware of ACT.

I've often ventured the opinion that America is the source of many of the best and worst things ever unleashed on the world. I still think that. America started out as a grand experiment, and it is ongoing. Personally I don't think America has seen its best times yet; much that is happening now would seem to suggest some sort of nadir -- again, only my opinion!

Certainly, I think ACT, in all its ramifications, is one of the better ideas to emerge from this great nation. And its greatness can only be enhanced as it learns to accept and assimilate great ideas from the rest of the planet.

Best wishes,Detlef> > > > > > > Many things to many people, I suppose.> > > >

> > > > I think is right with his aphorism -- Love is the only thing.> > > > > > > > I'd even go out on a limb and suggest that most if not all the woes humans encounter can be tracked back to love, or the lack of it, whether it be the love of one for another or, poignantly, the love one may honestly have for oneself. In my own examination of the 'human condition' of various folk I've known, or known about, in my sixty odd years on the planet, the lack of a decent amount of unbridled and unconditional affection looms large in their histories as it does in my own. Most of us have known it: 'I love you, but...'

> > > > > > > > Facing that 'but' and fighting it is perhaps the toughest battle any of us will ever meet, I think. I don't plan to be a casualty, and I fervently hope you won't be, either. Fighting the good fight may include something as 'silly' as giving ourselves a hug and meaning it. Go ahead. Do it now. You deserve it and always have. That meaningful others couldn't see it is not your fault.

> > > > > > > > Best wishes to you all,> > > > > > > > Detlef> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> >

>

July 2, 2012

Man, I've got to get myself a porch and a rocking chair. How cool would that be. Anyway, I think 's journey contrasts sharply to mine in two ways (which may or may not be what Terry was getting at). First, had a clear and well-defined problem to solve to turn his life around. I can't begin to appreciate how difficult overcoming that must have been, and won't embarass myself trying to empathise. But what was holding him back was clear to him, and to everyone around him, (?) and in summoning

the courage to break the addiction he freed his life. Second, the life he led before freeing himself from addiction was clearly very destructive. In a way, the valueless (forgive me?) life pre-'85 allowed him to see the progress he had made since then, and could spur him on to ever more greatness. These two things help me to spot some of the problems with my journey. I struggle to work out what is wrong with me! I feel like I have everything: job, house, wife, son, loving parents, friends, faith etc (except the damned rocking chair and a porch. I REALLY want those now). So why do I suffer? What problem do I have to solve to relieve the suffering? Where is it? I also struggle to see and discern the progress I have made with ACT. As far as I can tell, I've got nowhere fast (and, still being off

work, I am worse than when I started ACT). But perhaps it has improved, in subtle ways, and I don't give myself that encouragement by spotting it. Not sure if this makes sense. x To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, 2 July 2012, 13:30 Subject: Re: Re: Love is...

I do identify 1985 as a watershed year. But where in my post did I say anything remotely like: "things were dark and bleak and then the light came on and everything changed from that day forward"In fact, the post is about darkness visiting, not about everything has been awesome since 1985.What did change in 1985 was that I started to cultivate a practice that has transformed my life. Central to that practice, for me, central, was letting go of drugs and alcohol. That did happen in 1985 and, for me, that was a big deal. The practice itself has grown and evolved over time, but that piece has remained. Of course, I had many lovely experiences before 1985; however, I consistently screwed them and myself into the ground. I had a beautiful daughter, who loved me. And I chose getting high over her. I had a wife who loved me. I chose getting high over her. I started school in 1978, did very well in fact, and chose getting high over that. I had some really cool cars. I wrecked them high. I had the vigor and possibility of youth and I cooked my liver with booze and Hep C from shooting dope. I had another wife who loved me. I chose getting high over her too. There were many spots of loveliness, but I could sustain nothing.Drinking and drugging were hugely destructive avoidance strategies for me. Letting them go was the centerpiece of a

practice that began in 1985. In my opinion,

for me, that was critical for meaningful sustained life change. For others? Who knows? Me? I have not been to jail, abandoned any children, dropped out of school, got divorced, been fired from a job, been hospitalized for an overdose, car accident, or physical beating, been

evicted, been homeless, been violent, the list could go on, since 1985. So yes, I mark that as a big year.Getting high is not as destructive for some as it was for me, clearly not. In my opinion, and what I say in The Wisdom to Know the Difference, is that quitting is a personal decision. Each person has to check and see how it works for them. I encourage people to give it a chance, and not just letting go of big avoidance. Persisting in a pattern of growing a life that could

be

loved.I made that choice in 1985. It was not just a choice about getting high though. It was a choice to live. Come what may, and come it did....good and ill. My path has not been straight, but that part has. I have found other ways to screw things up since

then. I can be sullen, self-involved, and resentful. And certainly have paid a high price on a number of occasions. In 1987 I treated my big brother Randy with contempt and judgement and buried him that year, a suicide, without the chance to tell him that I loved him. I carry still sadness from that bit of prideful foolishness.So 1985 was not a watershed because everything changed that year. It is because everything started to change that year, because change became possible that year. And, 27 years of reasonably persistent engagement has paid extraordinary dividends. It has not ended pain. It has not ended darkness. It has simply given me something different to do when darkness and pain do come.My facebook status

yesterday:"Sitting on my back porch in my rocking chair, a fine cup of coffee in hand, having finally found the perfect strings for my 2001 NS42 CE (after owning it for 5 years), juvenile robins bathing in Dianna's bubbling fountain, southern air thick and warm and moist this morning, full of bird song, feeling an odd sense of quiet right next to my sadness and disquiet. I feel wonder about that sadness and disquiet, about my capacity for disquiet even in the midst of my many blessings, in the midst of my slice of grace. I will sit and see if I can allow some quiet to seep into that pool of disquiet this morning. I will reflect a bit on attachment and letting go, let shoulders soften, and know that if all were lost today I will have been blessed for having a life in which such things can be lost."A number of my posts on this list have been about the visits of darkness, sadness, and a sense of hopelessness. My last post was about that. In fact, I am in the thick of it at this very moment. So, I am perplexed about this:I guess I do get frustrated with the notion of a before and after life deal that refers to as well as many others I hear who tell their story.That's just not my story

todayWho said it was or should be your story? My story is what it is. Mine. No cartoon before and after story here. A story of persistence. And, days like this one, with abundant inexplicable sadness.best,k

Thanks. Yes, it seems pretty universal, this idea of belonging/not belonging... It's also fairly apparent to me it's not something unique to folks with addiction issues. If the addiction is active, the suffering will be more acute, for sure.And the acting on that suffering

in ways that are

distracting/destructive will be too. I guess I do get frustrated with the notion of a before and after life deal that refers to as well as many

others I hear who tell their story.That's just not my story today. The notion of not fitting in my skin did organize many of my thoughts, color too much of my thinking and relationships. But true too, I have had many many juicy, lovely openings in my life from day one. I had brave moments of joy where I opted for values over comfort. I have known love deeply in my early years and have the opportunity to made a difference in people's lives--even during thethroes of addiction. So for me it's not like I had some single defining moment, or where things were dark and bleak and then the light came on and everything changed from that day forward. I love this forum.Best to all,Terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2012 2:56 PM Subject: Re: Love is...

Good morning Terry,

Unfortunately it is not uncommon for people to feel like they don't fit in. There are many of us on this list alone. Look at Kaivey, he has said he feels he doesn't fit in, gosh I seem to say it contantly and I haven't heard anything of Russel in ages (I miss Russel).

We all seem to experience 'not fitting in'. I think the important thing, as everyone says, is to not give up and keep coming back regardless.

I wish you well and its good to hear from you.

>

> Ã‚

> >Many things to many people, I suppose.

> >

> >I think is right with his aphorism -- Love is the only thing.

> >

> >I'd even go out on a limb and suggest that most if not all the woes humans encounter can be tracked back to love, or the lack of it, whether it be the love of one for another or, poignantly, the love one may honestly have for oneself. In my own examination of the 'human condition' of various folk I've known, or known about, in my sixty odd years on the planet, the lack of a decent amount of unbridled and unconditional affection looms large in their histories as it does in my own. Most of us have known it: 'I love you, but...'

> >

> >Facing that 'but' and fighting it is perhaps the toughest battle any of us will ever meet, I think. I don't plan to be a casualty, and I fervently hope you won't be, either. Fighting the good fight may include something

> as 'silly' as giving ourselves a hug and meaning it. Go ahead. Do it now. You deserve it and always have. That meaningful others couldn't see it is not your fault.

> >

> >Best wishes to you all,

> >

> >Detlef

> >

>

July 2, 2012

Dear , I want to share something here that I haven't--namely, that I have been very sad about your current profound abundant about of sadness. I am not now nor have ever been a facebook participant, but your entry here makes me want to re-consider joining, if that is even an option. In any case, my prayer for you is to get some rest and for you to know I get that place of disquiet which frequents me on occasion as well. peace to you on the road my friend,terry To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, July 2, 2012 8:41 AM Subject: Re: Re: Love is...