Re: Re: Sitting With Values but moving on to defusion

[Guest guest]

Doesn't he mean that desiring a particular outcome is not the purpose? That outcome may be desirable (adjective) but to actively desire it (verb) is not the goal.

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 9:13:49 AMSubject: Re: Sitting With Values but moving on to defusion

although I think is saying that 'shortening the length of panic attack' is a not wholly desirable outcome, which I can't quite get my head around.>> Or, when it comes to safety issues, observing that 'my heart is jumping around in my chest, I am having the thought that someone is in the house with bad intentions'. This last one has been very effective in shortening my panic attacks at night when my partner is away (he works away a month then is home a month). I really appreciated what had to say about 'welcoming the anxiety' a few posts back.> > Cheers> > > 'It's just a step to the right....put your hands on your hips and bring your knees in tight'>

[Guest guest]

I also see it as a question of perspective, . Most. Of what I have learned indicates that a life without anxiety is a pipe dream. This, a program focused on eliminating anxiety is a dead end - or, perhaps, an endless treadmill session might be a better description. This leaves choices of either endless suffering, or of becoming more comfortable with anxiety.

Perhaps surprisingly, none of my personal work on accepting anxiety has ever made me indifferent to it, or resulted in me eagerly seeking it out. All that has changed is that there is a sort of interruption early in the escalation, at a point when I recognize it arriving, and it does not grow into a perseveration.

This happened to me yesterday, when I got some bad news at work, late in the day. It is essentially news received Friday afternoon that there is something serious management needs to talk to me about on Monday. There was a time this type of thing would have dominated my weekend. Now, I can see the concern when I look for it, but also see the bird going about its business just outside my window. A welcome change in emotion management!

Partly, it is a stronger control of attention, gained from meditation practice. Partly, it is a recognition of the anxiety as part of a perfectly valid mental process that is not, in itself, a story of Absolute Truth. I accept that my mind will generate this concern whenever it perceives the need, and I experience the message it sends, and I then move on to another moment.

DOn Friday, July 13, 2012, warriorprincessz wrote:

 

<snip> " Techniques " -- even ACT ones -- will abandon you if the goal is reducing anxiety.Even if that happens (and unfortunately it often graaaadually does) that is not the goal. You will stop feeling anxious when you are dead.

" No anxiety " is hardly the great outcome your mind tells you it is. The goal is liberation. The goal is life.WITH anxiety when anxiety is here. Use acceptance and defusion for that; then expand into the rest of the model and exposure as you expand your life <snip>

It was the above statement from in a post with the topic, OCD, that I was referring to Helena. In particular, the bit in brackets that says 'and unfortunately it often gradually does'. I have taken that to be referring back to 'reducing anxiety' ..... but now you've got me wondering....maybe it's referring to ACT 'techniques' abandoning you. The whole paragraph is a game changing statement. I guess it's challenging to switch from the goal of 'ending anxiety' to 'liberation. Life WITH anxiety when anxiety is there' and that's why I'm confused. 

Is it possible, , for you to say a little bit more to clarify that paragraph? People might find it odd but I find it incredibly comforting to read in a more recent post that you still struggle. (Actually I just realised the structure of this last sentence is another example of what I'm confused about. Do I mean people might find it odd that I'm comforted or do I mean that people might find it odd that still struggles?) I meant the former.

cheers

-- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKing@...

[Guest guest]

Maybe he means that it is unfortunate that reducing anxiety happens "graaadually" instead of quickly, lol. I, too, would like further clarification now that I read the entire thing.HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 6:40:38 PMSubject: Re: Sitting With Values but moving on to defusion

<snip>"Techniques" -- even ACT ones -- will abandon you if the goal is reducing anxiety.

Even if that happens (and unfortunately it often graaaadually does) that is not the goal.

You will stop feeling anxious when you are dead.

"No anxiety" is hardly the great outcome your mind tells you it is. The goal is liberation. The goal is life.

WITH anxiety when anxiety is here.

Use acceptance and defusion for that; then expand into the rest of the model and exposure as you expand your life <snip>

It was the above statement from in a post with the topic, OCD, that I was referring to Helena. In particular, the bit in brackets that says 'and unfortunately it often gradually does'. I have taken that to be referring back to 'reducing anxiety' ..... but now you've got me wondering....maybe it's referring to ACT 'techniques' abandoning you. The whole paragraph is a game changing statement. I guess it's challenging to switch from the goal of 'ending anxiety' to 'liberation. Life WITH anxiety when anxiety is there' and that's why I'm confused.

Is it possible, , for you to say a little bit more to clarify that paragraph?

People might find it odd but I find it incredibly comforting to read in a more recent post that you still struggle. (Actually I just realised the structure of this last sentence is another example of what I'm confused about. Do I mean people might find it odd that I'm comforted or do I mean that people might find it odd that still struggles?) I meant the former.

cheers

> >

>

> > Or, when it comes to safety issues, observing that 'my heart is jumping around in my chest, I am having the thought that someone is in the house with bad intentions'. This last one has been very effective in shortening my panic attacks at night when my partner is away (he works away a month then is home a month). I really appreciated what had to say about 'welcoming the anxiety' a few posts back.

[Guest guest]

I'm no Steve expert decoder, but I'll take a stab at this since it's fun: I'm pretty sure he means the comments as a caution. That reduction in anxiety as one practices ACT can prove seductive in the sense the mind will want to turn it all into a formula..e.g., the mind will tend to conclude: "Oh, cool..I just need to do x, y, z (plug in ACT process) more often ( or do it this way and only this way) and then my anxiety will continue to diminish each and every time". As the mind grows convinced it's got things figured out (in this case, anxiety), look out! The mind is back in the driver seat and you are shrinking more and more into oblivion, less present with what is working, less flexible with the current context.

(Such as the point in the discussions about taking medications, like the posts about beta blockers).Not that reduction in anxiety is bad. We all want less anxiety. I think, right? I sure do. But at what cost? So guess it's just that you really don't want to start setting that up as the expectation, as the end result, as the goal. If reduction in anxiety happens, it happens. And if it doesn't, it doesn't. Am I making sense or confusing things more? ;-)terry To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 9:27 AM Subject: Re: Re: Sitting With Values but moving on to defusion

Maybe he means that it is unfortunate that reducing anxiety happens "graaadually" instead of quickly, lol. I, too, would like further clarification now that I read the entire thing.HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 6:40:38 PMSubject: Re: Sitting With Values but moving on to defusion

<snip>"Techniques" -- even ACT ones -- will abandon you if the goal is reducing anxiety.

Even if that happens (and unfortunately it often graaaadually does) that is not the goal.

You will stop feeling anxious when you are dead.

"No anxiety" is hardly the great outcome your mind tells you it is. The goal is liberation. The goal is life.

WITH anxiety when anxiety is here.

Use acceptance and defusion for that; then expand into the rest of the model and exposure as you expand your life <snip>

It was the above statement from in a post with the topic, OCD, that I was referring to Helena. In particular, the bit in brackets that says 'and unfortunately it often gradually does'. I have taken that to be referring back to 'reducing anxiety' ..... but now you've got me wondering....maybe it's referring to ACT 'techniques' abandoning you. The whole paragraph is a game changing statement. I guess it's challenging to switch from the goal of 'ending anxiety' to 'liberation. Life WITH anxiety when anxiety is there' and that's why I'm confused.

Is it possible, , for you to say a little bit more to clarify that paragraph?

People might find it odd but I find it incredibly comforting to read in a more recent post that you still struggle. (Actually I just realised the structure of this last sentence is another example of what I'm confused about. Do I mean people might find it odd that I'm comforted or do I mean that people might find it odd that still struggles?) I meant the former.

cheers

> >

>

> > Or, when it comes to safety issues, observing that 'my heart is jumping around in my chest, I am having the thought that someone is in the house with bad intentions'. This last one has been very effective in shortening my panic attacks at night when my partner is away (he works away a month then is home a month). I really appreciated what had to say about 'welcoming the anxiety' a few posts back.

[Guest guest]

Oh, just read the whole post on OCD and it is quite a powerful statement. Maybe I shouldn't assume so much, especially about everyone wanting reduction in anxiety. To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 12:38 PM Subject: Re: Re: Sitting With Values but moving on to defusion

I'm no Steve expert decoder, but I'll take a stab at this since it's fun: I'm pretty sure he means the comments as a caution. That reduction in anxiety as one practices ACT can prove seductive in the sense the mind will want to turn it all into a formula..e.g., the mind will tend to conclude: "Oh, cool..I just need to do x, y, z (plug in ACT process) more often ( or do it this way and only this way) and then my anxiety will continue to diminish each and every time". As the mind grows convinced it's got things figured out (in this case, anxiety), look out! The mind is back in the driver seat and you are shrinking more and more into oblivion, less present with what is working, less flexible with the current context.

(Such as the point in the discussions about taking medications, like the posts about beta blockers).Not that reduction in anxiety is bad. We all want less anxiety. I think, right? I sure do. But at what cost? So guess it's just that you really don't want to start setting that up as the expectation, as the end result, as the goal. If reduction in anxiety happens, it happens. And if it doesn't, it doesn't. Am I making sense or confusing things more? ;-)terry To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 9:27 AM Subject: Re: Re: Sitting With Values but moving on to defusion

Maybe he means that it is unfortunate that reducing anxiety happens "graaadually" instead of quickly, lol. I, too, would like further clarification now that I read the entire thing.HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 6:40:38 PMSubject: Re: Sitting With Values but moving on to defusion

<snip>"Techniques" -- even ACT ones -- will abandon you if the goal is reducing anxiety.

Even if that happens (and unfortunately it often graaaadually does) that is not the goal.

You will stop feeling anxious when you are dead.

"No anxiety" is hardly the great outcome your mind tells you it is. The goal is liberation. The goal is life.

WITH anxiety when anxiety is here.

Use acceptance and defusion for that; then expand into the rest of the model and exposure as you expand your life <snip>

It was the above statement from in a post with the topic, OCD, that I was referring to Helena. In particular, the bit in brackets that says 'and unfortunately it often gradually does'. I have taken that to be referring back to 'reducing anxiety' ..... but now you've got me wondering....maybe it's referring to ACT 'techniques' abandoning you. The whole paragraph is a game changing statement. I guess it's challenging to switch from the goal of 'ending anxiety' to 'liberation. Life WITH anxiety when anxiety is there' and that's why I'm confused.

Is it possible, , for you to say a little bit more to clarify that paragraph?

People might find it odd but I find it incredibly comforting to read in a more recent post that you still struggle. (Actually I just realised the structure of this last sentence is another example of what I'm confused about. Do I mean people might find it odd that I'm comforted or do I mean that people might find it odd that still struggles?) I meant the former.

cheers

> >

>

> > Or, when it comes to safety issues, observing that 'my heart is jumping around in my chest, I am having the thought that someone is in the house with bad intentions'. This last one has been very effective in shortening my panic attacks at night when my partner is away (he works away a month then is home a month). I really appreciated what had to say about 'welcoming the anxiety' a few posts back.

[Guest guest]

I think you are right, Terry.

I'm no Steve expert decoder, but I'll take a stab at this since it's fun: I'm pretty sure he means the comments as a caution. That reduction in anxiety as one practices ACT can prove seductive in the sense the mind will want to turn it all into a formula..e.g., the mind will tend to conclude: "Oh, cool..I just need to do x, y, z (plug in ACT process) more often ( or do it this way and only this way) and then my anxiety will continue to diminish each and every time". As the mind grows convinced it's got things figured out (in this case, anxiety), look out! The mind is back in the driver seat and you are shrinking more and more into oblivion, less present with what is working, less flexible with the current context.

(Such as the point in the discussions about taking medications, like the posts about beta blockers).Not that reduction in anxiety is bad. We all want less anxiety. I think, right? I sure do. But at what cost? So guess it's just that you really don't want to start setting that up as the expectation, as the end result, as the goal. If reduction in anxiety happens, it happens. And if it doesn't, it doesn't. Am I making sense or confusing things more? ;-)terry To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 9:27 AM Subject: Re: Re: Sitting With Values but moving on to defusion

Maybe he means that it is unfortunate that reducing anxiety happens "graaadually" instead of quickly, lol. I, too, would like further clarification now that I read the entire thing.HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 6:40:38 PMSubject: Re: Sitting With Values but moving on to defusion

<snip>"Techniques" -- even ACT ones -- will abandon you if the goal is reducing anxiety.

Even if that happens (and unfortunately it often graaaadually does) that is not the goal.

You will stop feeling anxious when you are dead.

"No anxiety" is hardly the great outcome your mind tells you it is. The goal is liberation. The goal is life.

WITH anxiety when anxiety is here.

Use acceptance and defusion for that; then expand into the rest of the model and exposure as you expand your life <snip>

It was the above statement from in a post with the topic, OCD, that I was referring to Helena. In particular, the bit in brackets that says 'and unfortunately it often gradually does'. I have taken that to be referring back to 'reducing anxiety' ..... but now you've got me wondering....maybe it's referring to ACT 'techniques' abandoning you. The whole paragraph is a game changing statement. I guess it's challenging to switch from the goal of 'ending anxiety' to 'liberation. Life WITH anxiety when anxiety is there' and that's why I'm confused.

Is it possible, , for you to say a little bit more to clarify that paragraph?

People might find it odd but I find it incredibly comforting to read in a more recent post that you still struggle. (Actually I just realised the structure of this last sentence is another example of what I'm confused about. Do I mean people might find it odd that I'm comforted or do I mean that people might find it odd that still struggles?) I meant the former.

cheers

> >

>

> > Or, when it comes to safety issues, observing that 'my heart is jumping around in my chest, I am having the thought that someone is in the house with bad intentions'. This last one has been very effective in shortening my panic attacks at night when my partner is away (he works away a month then is home a month). I really appreciated what had to say about 'welcoming the anxiety' a few posts back.

[Guest guest]

It helps, these questions! I get stumped all the time with language so we need each other. Plus, there's just a lot of territory covered in these posts.I think it helps to explore these offerings..keeps the little grey cells going, you know? I tend to forget what ACT is about-- and what it isn't about. My mind (and other components like friends, culture will certainly reinforce) will want to argue the goal IS about having the anxiety go away. And I will start to lookto processes like acceptance and defusion for that feeling state and not even realize I am. I too have leaned heavy on the "but I'm overwhelmed" like it's a problem to besolved. Certainly not an opportunity! So it's good we talk

about here, remind each other. ACT is a game changer. Now let's go play!terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 6:30 PM Subject: Re: Sitting With Values but moving on to defusion

ah the ambiguity and paradoxes inherent in the English language...probably a reflection of life in general! Thanks Helena, Terry and Darrell, I've enjoyed the laughs and the decoding attempts.

>

> > I'm no Steve expert decoder, but I'll take a stab at this since it's fun: I'm pretty sure he means the comments as a caution. That reduction in anxiety as one practices ACT can prove seductive in the sense the mind will want to turn it all into a formula..e.g., the mind will tend to conclude:

> > "Oh, cool..I just need to do x, y, z (plug in ACT process) more often ( or do it this way and only this way) and then my anxiety will continue to diminish each and every time".

> >

> > As the mind grows convinced it's got things figured out (in this case, anxiety), look out! The mind is back in the driver seat and you are shrinking more and more into oblivion, less present with what is working, less flexible with the current context. (Such as the point in the discussions about taking medications, like the posts about beta blockers).

> >

> > Not that reduction in anxiety is bad. We all want less anxiety. I think, right? I sure do. But at what cost? So guess it's just that you really don't want to start setting that up as the expectation, as the end result, as the goal. If reduction in anxiety happens, it happens. And if it doesn't, it doesn't.

> >

> > Am I making sense or confusing things more? ;-)

> >

> > terry

> >

> >

> > To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public >

> > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 9:27 AM

> > Subject: Re: Re: Sitting With Values but moving on to defusion

> >

> >

> > Maybe he means that it is unfortunate that reducing anxiety happens "graaadually" instead of quickly, lol. I, too, would like further clarification now that I read the entire thing.

> >

> > Helena

> >