Re: experiential avoidance

[Guest guest]

hi HakonTo achieve you will have to avoid experiential avoidance. Thoughts and feelings about being a failure you will have to accept and stay with them until they go which eventually they will and not try to get rid of them while at the same time proceeding with value activity and the business of the day. Going back to school is something you will have to do and still be with the feelings accepting and if necessary defusing from them. When you have trained yourself to do this you will gain confidence and your ability to function as you wish will gradually increase. You could be quite wrong in thinking that your girlfriend would not like you if she knew about the anxiety in fact you might find her very supportive. Peace and best wishes from your friend FrancisTo: ACT_for_the_Public From: haakonerix@...Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:29:12 +0000Subject: experiential avoidance

Hi, everyone.

Been a while since I have been posting. I just wanted to tell you about my situation, and maybe you have some insight to share.

I have been struggling with depression and anxiety all my life, and for these reasons I have not been able to complete an education. Now I work in a bookstore, and I have been doing that since 2005, maybe (on and off). My last bout of depression lasted maybe a whole year, from the summer of 2010 until the summer of 2011. It started when I decided against going back to school (which I was planning to do summer 2010). I fell straight into hellish depression, and stayed there for almost a year.

When things started feeling better (around summer 2011), I thought that was great (naturally). I wasn´t doing anything in particular, but seeing more of friends and maybe reading a bit. Anyway, I have been feeling good for a year now. And that is what I want to talk about. Cause it has been a year full of joy, where I have been happy and feeling kind of self-assured. I have taken little action, though. Mostly small social visits, hanging out, reading and listening to music. But the overall feeling has been one of happiness.

So I have been passive, and it has been feeling good. I have been reading Chuang-Tzu (taoist text), writings by Cage, and other texts to kind of empower myself, and the thoughts "it doesn´t matter" have felt good. Whenever I got worried about wasting my life, I could just think "it doesn´t matter". I love being in that state of happiness. Music sounds good, it feels good to be in nature, watch movies. Just observing the world feels good, and I feel relaxed (most of the time) and not self-critical.

I think if there is a subtext to my good feelings, it is "people are stupid"(because they try too hard) and "it doesn´t matter". Does that sound crazy? I don´t know. It kind of backed up my passive stance, since I didn´t have to involve myself then. If I didn´t care, how could it hurt me?

I think this fits quite nicely with experiential avoidance. Because I have been avoiding feelings of defeat through not caring. But it has felt really good. I don´t know if this is wrong.

Now I have applied for school again (geology), I have got a girlfriend, and I have moved in with her. And now the anxiety is back. Old thoughts like "I´m a failure" and "I´ll never get through school because of my social anxiety", and "my girlfriend can´t know I´m anxious, because then she´ll dislike me". The whole shebang.

So I really don´t know what to make of this. talks about the "anxiety tiger" or something, which you feed with experiential avoidance. I can see that I have been avoiding situations that have felt bad (situations where I was needed or counted on, or where I would have to perform), but I have been feeling little anxiety.

I think this is hard to explain. I feel like whenever I face responsibility, then anxiety is there. I have been feeling good partly because I thought achievement didn´t matter, or at least that´s what I was telling myself. But now when I am facing a situation where I feel I have to take initiative, then it scares me like hell. I get very nervous and uptight. It feels kind of like flipping a light switch, because the "joy of being" turns off. I get little out of listening to music, because my head fills up with doubts about the future.

This self-criticism and self-doubt can connect itself to anything, too. If someone is talking about a subject they know a lot about, I can think:

"I don´t know anything about that"

and to

"I am a total failure"

When I am just an observer, I feel good. When I want to act, I am faced with my anxiety and my pain of absence. Now I feel like I am faced with my pain of absence every day, because of worrying about school and worrying about not being an active part in the relationship with my girlfriend (having a bad job etc).

So I don´t know. It feels like two modes. One where I kind of just observe and feel, and things are okay if I just don´t involve myself, and the other where I am really hard on myself, judging myself. In "action mode" I am constantly doubting myself, trying to do the right thing, but not knowing what the right thing is.

Does anybody have any thoughts on this? If I am a big time experiential avoider, should I change that? I don´t know what I want out of life, and I´m not sure if it´s an education or lots of money.

Any thoughts on this, anyone?

Håkon

[Guest guest]

hi HakonTo achieve you will have to avoid experiential avoidance. Thoughts and feelings about being a failure you will have to accept and stay with them until they go which eventually they will and not try to get rid of them while at the same time proceeding with value activity and the business of the day. Going back to school is something you will have to do and still be with the feelings accepting and if necessary defusing from them. When you have trained yourself to do this you will gain confidence and your ability to function as you wish will gradually increase. You could be quite wrong in thinking that your girlfriend would not like you if she knew about the anxiety in fact you might find her very supportive. Peace and best wishes from your friend FrancisTo: ACT_for_the_Public From: haakonerix@...Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:29:12 +0000Subject: experiential avoidance

Hi, everyone.

Been a while since I have been posting. I just wanted to tell you about my situation, and maybe you have some insight to share.

I have been struggling with depression and anxiety all my life, and for these reasons I have not been able to complete an education. Now I work in a bookstore, and I have been doing that since 2005, maybe (on and off). My last bout of depression lasted maybe a whole year, from the summer of 2010 until the summer of 2011. It started when I decided against going back to school (which I was planning to do summer 2010). I fell straight into hellish depression, and stayed there for almost a year.

When things started feeling better (around summer 2011), I thought that was great (naturally). I wasn´t doing anything in particular, but seeing more of friends and maybe reading a bit. Anyway, I have been feeling good for a year now. And that is what I want to talk about. Cause it has been a year full of joy, where I have been happy and feeling kind of self-assured. I have taken little action, though. Mostly small social visits, hanging out, reading and listening to music. But the overall feeling has been one of happiness.

So I have been passive, and it has been feeling good. I have been reading Chuang-Tzu (taoist text), writings by Cage, and other texts to kind of empower myself, and the thoughts "it doesn´t matter" have felt good. Whenever I got worried about wasting my life, I could just think "it doesn´t matter". I love being in that state of happiness. Music sounds good, it feels good to be in nature, watch movies. Just observing the world feels good, and I feel relaxed (most of the time) and not self-critical.

I think if there is a subtext to my good feelings, it is "people are stupid"(because they try too hard) and "it doesn´t matter". Does that sound crazy? I don´t know. It kind of backed up my passive stance, since I didn´t have to involve myself then. If I didn´t care, how could it hurt me?

I think this fits quite nicely with experiential avoidance. Because I have been avoiding feelings of defeat through not caring. But it has felt really good. I don´t know if this is wrong.

Now I have applied for school again (geology), I have got a girlfriend, and I have moved in with her. And now the anxiety is back. Old thoughts like "I´m a failure" and "I´ll never get through school because of my social anxiety", and "my girlfriend can´t know I´m anxious, because then she´ll dislike me". The whole shebang.

So I really don´t know what to make of this. talks about the "anxiety tiger" or something, which you feed with experiential avoidance. I can see that I have been avoiding situations that have felt bad (situations where I was needed or counted on, or where I would have to perform), but I have been feeling little anxiety.

I think this is hard to explain. I feel like whenever I face responsibility, then anxiety is there. I have been feeling good partly because I thought achievement didn´t matter, or at least that´s what I was telling myself. But now when I am facing a situation where I feel I have to take initiative, then it scares me like hell. I get very nervous and uptight. It feels kind of like flipping a light switch, because the "joy of being" turns off. I get little out of listening to music, because my head fills up with doubts about the future.

This self-criticism and self-doubt can connect itself to anything, too. If someone is talking about a subject they know a lot about, I can think:

"I don´t know anything about that"

and to

"I am a total failure"

When I am just an observer, I feel good. When I want to act, I am faced with my anxiety and my pain of absence. Now I feel like I am faced with my pain of absence every day, because of worrying about school and worrying about not being an active part in the relationship with my girlfriend (having a bad job etc).

So I don´t know. It feels like two modes. One where I kind of just observe and feel, and things are okay if I just don´t involve myself, and the other where I am really hard on myself, judging myself. In "action mode" I am constantly doubting myself, trying to do the right thing, but not knowing what the right thing is.

Does anybody have any thoughts on this? If I am a big time experiential avoider, should I change that? I don´t know what I want out of life, and I´m not sure if it´s an education or lots of money.

Any thoughts on this, anyone?

Håkon

[Guest guest]

I can identify with this. From an ACT perspective, perhaps you could face the responsibility and observe and accept all the feelings it brings up. Then it might be easier to separate your responsibility-anxiety from whatever value accepting the responsibility brings to your life. Once you can do that, you can better decide if the responsibility is part of a fulfilling life for you. If it is, then hang in with the anxieties. If it isn't, then going back to doing what feels like it does.I think it's good to ask yourself what you would do if you didn't have any responsibility-anxiety? This is a good thing to try and answer and move toward, that person in you with values, interests, likes, desires, dreams, etc., not the person in the prison of anxiety. Then you have something to aim toward.

Hi, everyone.

Been a while since I have been posting. I just wanted to tell you about my situation, and maybe you have some insight to share.

I have been struggling with depression and anxiety all my life, and for these reasons I have not been able to complete an education. Now I work in a bookstore, and I have been doing that since 2005, maybe (on and off). My last bout of depression lasted maybe a whole year, from the summer of 2010 until the summer of 2011. It started when I decided against going back to school (which I was planning to do summer 2010). I fell straight into hellish depression, and stayed there for almost a year.

When things started feeling better (around summer 2011), I thought that was great (naturally). I wasn´t doing anything in particular, but seeing more of friends and maybe reading a bit. Anyway, I have been feeling good for a year now. And that is what I want to talk about. Cause it has been a year full of joy, where I have been happy and feeling kind of self-assured. I have taken little action, though. Mostly small social visits, hanging out, reading and listening to music. But the overall feeling has been one of happiness.

So I have been passive, and it has been feeling good. I have been reading Chuang-Tzu (taoist text), writings by Cage, and other texts to kind of empower myself, and the thoughts "it doesn´t matter" have felt good. Whenever I got worried about wasting my life, I could just think "it doesn´t matter". I love being in that state of happiness. Music sounds good, it feels good to be in nature, watch movies. Just observing the world feels good, and I feel relaxed (most of the time) and not self-critical.

I think if there is a subtext to my good feelings, it is "people are stupid"(because they try too hard) and "it doesn´t matter". Does that sound crazy? I don´t know. It kind of backed up my passive stance, since I didn´t have to involve myself then. If I didn´t care, how could it hurt me?

I think this fits quite nicely with experiential avoidance. Because I have been avoiding feelings of defeat through not caring. But it has felt really good. I don´t know if this is wrong.

Now I have applied for school again (geology), I have got a girlfriend, and I have moved in with her. And now the anxiety is back. Old thoughts like "I´m a failure" and "I´ll never get through school because of my social anxiety", and "my girlfriend can´t know I´m anxious, because then she´ll dislike me". The whole shebang.

So I really don´t know what to make of this. talks about the "anxiety tiger" or something, which you feed with experiential avoidance. I can see that I have been avoiding situations that have felt bad (situations where I was needed or counted on, or where I would have to perform), but I have been feeling little anxiety.

I think this is hard to explain. I feel like whenever I face responsibility, then anxiety is there. I have been feeling good partly because I thought achievement didn´t matter, or at least that´s what I was telling myself. But now when I am facing a situation where I feel I have to take initiative, then it scares me like hell. I get very nervous and uptight. It feels kind of like flipping a light switch, because the "joy of being" turns off. I get little out of listening to music, because my head fills up with doubts about the future.

This self-criticism and self-doubt can connect itself to anything, too. If someone is talking about a subject they know a lot about, I can think:

"I don´t know anything about that"

and to

"I am a total failure"

When I am just an observer, I feel good. When I want to act, I am faced with my anxiety and my pain of absence. Now I feel like I am faced with my pain of absence every day, because of worrying about school and worrying about not being an active part in the relationship with my girlfriend (having a bad job etc).

So I don´t know. It feels like two modes. One where I kind of just observe and feel, and things are okay if I just don´t involve myself, and the other where I am really hard on myself, judging myself. In "action mode" I am constantly doubting myself, trying to do the right thing, but not knowing what the right thing is.

Does anybody have any thoughts on this? If I am a big time experiential avoider, should I change that? I don´t know what I want out of life, and I´m not sure if it´s an education or lots of money.

Any thoughts on this, anyone?

Håkon

[Guest guest]

I can identify with this. From an ACT perspective, perhaps you could face the responsibility and observe and accept all the feelings it brings up. Then it might be easier to separate your responsibility-anxiety from whatever value accepting the responsibility brings to your life. Once you can do that, you can better decide if the responsibility is part of a fulfilling life for you. If it is, then hang in with the anxieties. If it isn't, then going back to doing what feels like it does.I think it's good to ask yourself what you would do if you didn't have any responsibility-anxiety? This is a good thing to try and answer and move toward, that person in you with values, interests, likes, desires, dreams, etc., not the person in the prison of anxiety. Then you have something to aim toward.

Hi, everyone.

Been a while since I have been posting. I just wanted to tell you about my situation, and maybe you have some insight to share.

I have been struggling with depression and anxiety all my life, and for these reasons I have not been able to complete an education. Now I work in a bookstore, and I have been doing that since 2005, maybe (on and off). My last bout of depression lasted maybe a whole year, from the summer of 2010 until the summer of 2011. It started when I decided against going back to school (which I was planning to do summer 2010). I fell straight into hellish depression, and stayed there for almost a year.

When things started feeling better (around summer 2011), I thought that was great (naturally). I wasn´t doing anything in particular, but seeing more of friends and maybe reading a bit. Anyway, I have been feeling good for a year now. And that is what I want to talk about. Cause it has been a year full of joy, where I have been happy and feeling kind of self-assured. I have taken little action, though. Mostly small social visits, hanging out, reading and listening to music. But the overall feeling has been one of happiness.

So I have been passive, and it has been feeling good. I have been reading Chuang-Tzu (taoist text), writings by Cage, and other texts to kind of empower myself, and the thoughts "it doesn´t matter" have felt good. Whenever I got worried about wasting my life, I could just think "it doesn´t matter". I love being in that state of happiness. Music sounds good, it feels good to be in nature, watch movies. Just observing the world feels good, and I feel relaxed (most of the time) and not self-critical.

I think if there is a subtext to my good feelings, it is "people are stupid"(because they try too hard) and "it doesn´t matter". Does that sound crazy? I don´t know. It kind of backed up my passive stance, since I didn´t have to involve myself then. If I didn´t care, how could it hurt me?

I think this fits quite nicely with experiential avoidance. Because I have been avoiding feelings of defeat through not caring. But it has felt really good. I don´t know if this is wrong.

Now I have applied for school again (geology), I have got a girlfriend, and I have moved in with her. And now the anxiety is back. Old thoughts like "I´m a failure" and "I´ll never get through school because of my social anxiety", and "my girlfriend can´t know I´m anxious, because then she´ll dislike me". The whole shebang.

So I really don´t know what to make of this. talks about the "anxiety tiger" or something, which you feed with experiential avoidance. I can see that I have been avoiding situations that have felt bad (situations where I was needed or counted on, or where I would have to perform), but I have been feeling little anxiety.

I think this is hard to explain. I feel like whenever I face responsibility, then anxiety is there. I have been feeling good partly because I thought achievement didn´t matter, or at least that´s what I was telling myself. But now when I am facing a situation where I feel I have to take initiative, then it scares me like hell. I get very nervous and uptight. It feels kind of like flipping a light switch, because the "joy of being" turns off. I get little out of listening to music, because my head fills up with doubts about the future.

This self-criticism and self-doubt can connect itself to anything, too. If someone is talking about a subject they know a lot about, I can think:

"I don´t know anything about that"

and to

"I am a total failure"

When I am just an observer, I feel good. When I want to act, I am faced with my anxiety and my pain of absence. Now I feel like I am faced with my pain of absence every day, because of worrying about school and worrying about not being an active part in the relationship with my girlfriend (having a bad job etc).

So I don´t know. It feels like two modes. One where I kind of just observe and feel, and things are okay if I just don´t involve myself, and the other where I am really hard on myself, judging myself. In "action mode" I am constantly doubting myself, trying to do the right thing, but not knowing what the right thing is.

Does anybody have any thoughts on this? If I am a big time experiential avoider, should I change that? I don´t know what I want out of life, and I´m not sure if it´s an education or lots of money.

Any thoughts on this, anyone?

Håkon

[Guest guest]

Thank you for this post Hakon.  I have been lurking on here for well over a year (maybe 2) and it is time to step up and participate.  Why now?  Because life has become very difficult, of course.  I come away from most social visits feeling like an invisible, useless, dull, slug of a human being.  I have hidden myself so well that now no one even knows I am at the table.  I feel resentful, hurt and disrespected, and worse, I know I have trained them to disregard me.  It is such an uncomfortable position to be in that I want to escape into oblivion through some substance like alcohol or ice cream.  I resonate so strongly with this feeling of being " nothing " I feel it is written all over my face (and it probably is).  And I have managed to create this treatment of me wherever I land.  I train a new group to ignore me and then I dump them in search of someone who will " see " me.  I miss my family of origin (all gone) as I could be myself around them without fear.  I am closing down more and more.

I have all the books.  Where should I start?  Maybe that compassion book that recommended.  Actually, I'll open The Wisdom to Know the Difference.  Dee

[Guest guest]

Thank you for this post Hakon.  I have been lurking on here for well over a year (maybe 2) and it is time to step up and participate.  Why now?  Because life has become very difficult, of course.  I come away from most social visits feeling like an invisible, useless, dull, slug of a human being.  I have hidden myself so well that now no one even knows I am at the table.  I feel resentful, hurt and disrespected, and worse, I know I have trained them to disregard me.  It is such an uncomfortable position to be in that I want to escape into oblivion through some substance like alcohol or ice cream.  I resonate so strongly with this feeling of being " nothing " I feel it is written all over my face (and it probably is).  And I have managed to create this treatment of me wherever I land.  I train a new group to ignore me and then I dump them in search of someone who will " see " me.  I miss my family of origin (all gone) as I could be myself around them without fear.  I am closing down more and more.

I have all the books.  Where should I start?  Maybe that compassion book that recommended.  Actually, I'll open The Wisdom to Know the Difference.  Dee

[Guest guest]

If you haven´t worked through it, I highly recommend Get Out of Your Mind and into Your Life. It is like no other workbook/self-help book I have seen. Being a skeptic about self help, I started the book with a bit of questioning, but I found some real techniques applicable to my life. It is not a cure all and it has to be worked thoroughly and carefully and, maybe worked time and again. Also, it doesn´t let you off the hook. It tells it like it is, but in a non judgmental way. Although I have always wanted instant result for my social anxiety, generalized anxiety, depression and low self esteem issues, I realize that for me it will be a life long process. Somewhere in one of the programs I have been in, they kept reminding me that you don´t heal overnight what has been in the making for years.Good luck, Dee. Alongside you, there are many rooting for your success. Phil

Thank you for this post Hakon. I have been lurking on here for well over a year (maybe 2) and it is time to step up and participate. Why now? Because life has become very difficult, of course. I come away from most social visits feeling like an invisible, useless, dull, slug of a human being. I have hidden myself so well that now no one even knows I am at the table. I feel resentful, hurt and disrespected, and worse, I know I have trained them to disregard me. It is such an uncomfortable position to be in that I want to escape into oblivion through some substance like alcohol or ice cream. I resonate so strongly with this feeling of being "nothing" I feel it is written all over my face (and it probably is). And I have managed to create this treatment of me wherever I land. I train a new group to ignore me and then I dump them in search of someone who will "see" me. I miss my family of origin (all gone) as I could be myself around them without fear. I am closing down more and more.

I have all the books. Where should I start? Maybe that compassion book that recommended. Actually, I'll open The Wisdom to Know the Difference. Dee

[Guest guest]

If you haven´t worked through it, I highly recommend Get Out of Your Mind and into Your Life. It is like no other workbook/self-help book I have seen. Being a skeptic about self help, I started the book with a bit of questioning, but I found some real techniques applicable to my life. It is not a cure all and it has to be worked thoroughly and carefully and, maybe worked time and again. Also, it doesn´t let you off the hook. It tells it like it is, but in a non judgmental way. Although I have always wanted instant result for my social anxiety, generalized anxiety, depression and low self esteem issues, I realize that for me it will be a life long process. Somewhere in one of the programs I have been in, they kept reminding me that you don´t heal overnight what has been in the making for years.Good luck, Dee. Alongside you, there are many rooting for your success. Phil

Thank you for this post Hakon. I have been lurking on here for well over a year (maybe 2) and it is time to step up and participate. Why now? Because life has become very difficult, of course. I come away from most social visits feeling like an invisible, useless, dull, slug of a human being. I have hidden myself so well that now no one even knows I am at the table. I feel resentful, hurt and disrespected, and worse, I know I have trained them to disregard me. It is such an uncomfortable position to be in that I want to escape into oblivion through some substance like alcohol or ice cream. I resonate so strongly with this feeling of being "nothing" I feel it is written all over my face (and it probably is). And I have managed to create this treatment of me wherever I land. I train a new group to ignore me and then I dump them in search of someone who will "see" me. I miss my family of origin (all gone) as I could be myself around them without fear. I am closing down more and more.

I have all the books. Where should I start? Maybe that compassion book that recommended. Actually, I'll open The Wisdom to Know the Difference. Dee

[Guest guest]

hi Hakon

Couple things come to my mind when i read your post....

firstly, our lives or how we choose to live it is simply one of many, and there

is no one life or way of living which one can say is better than another. If i

choose to be a beach bum and just work minimum wage or decide to live w nature

instead of in the city, well that is simply my choice, all lives are equally

valued, my life or the way i choose to live it is not any better or less than

another life, say of someone else who is a high achieving executive or even

president of so and so.

secondly, there comes a time when i / you may sense a change is needed, maybe

that is finding a life partner to get married, having children or family, or

trying to get a raise or promotion to support your family better, etc etc, these

often come up when thinking about our values.

an example is i recently decided to take technical seminar to better myself. at

the end of the seminar, i felt overwhelmed, i felt the info overload, and i was

kinda beating myself up inside for not knowing this already, etc etc. At the end

i thought about it, the world and the seminar and the world in which we work and

live in is the way it is... the technical info this seminar represents is simply

how the world works nowadays, this is reality, all i can do is to choose my

response, i can respond by saying i resist it which is a form of avoidance or i

can say to myself, well i will do the best that i can do, and that is it. This

lead to my thinking along the lines of CBT, to tackle my negative thoughts and

replace them w more positive thoughts like, ok, this material is complex, nobody

knows everything, and so all i can do is to do the best that i can and go from

there, or i have lotsa years experience, i know what i know, and that is good

enough and i can learn what i dont know , etc etc.

At the end i choose to take this seminar because i wanted something new or

different, new skills to help my work, so hopefully i can earn more money to

support my family in the future, etc etc. and i knew that if i dont take this

seminar, then nothing will change, i will be the same person w the same

knowledge next summer as i am this summer, and so my desire to change or

initiate change made me do it (take seminar).

It is this desire to initiate some form of change, ala connection to values ACT

style, which led to action.

Anyways, hope that helps.

Tom

>

> Hi, everyone.

>

> Been a while since I have been posting. I just wanted to tell you about my

situation, and maybe you have some insight to share.

>

> I have been struggling with depression and anxiety all my life, and for these

reasons I have not been able to complete an education. Now I work in a

bookstore, and I have been doing that since 2005, maybe (on and off). My last

bout of depression lasted maybe a whole year, from the summer of 2010 until the

summer of 2011. It started when I decided against going back to school (which I

was planning to do summer 2010). I fell straight into hellish depression, and

stayed there for almost a year.

>

> When things started feeling better (around summer 2011), I thought that was

great (naturally). I wasn´t doing anything in particular, but seeing more of

friends and maybe reading a bit. Anyway, I have been feeling good for a year

now. And that is what I want to talk about. Cause it has been a year full of

joy, where I have been happy and feeling kind of self-assured. I have taken

little action, though. Mostly small social visits, hanging out, reading and

listening to music. But the overall feeling has been one of happiness.

>

> So I have been passive, and it has been feeling good. I have been reading

Chuang-Tzu (taoist text), writings by Cage, and other texts to kind of

empower myself, and the thoughts " it doesn´t matter " have felt good. Whenever I

got worried about wasting my life, I could just think " it doesn´t matter " . I

love being in that state of happiness. Music sounds good, it feels good to be in

nature, watch movies. Just observing the world feels good, and I feel relaxed

(most of the time) and not self-critical.

>

> I think if there is a subtext to my good feelings, it is " people are

stupid " (because they try too hard) and " it doesn´t matter " . Does that sound

crazy? I don´t know. It kind of backed up my passive stance, since I didn´t have

to involve myself then. If I didn´t care, how could it hurt me?

>

> I think this fits quite nicely with experiential avoidance. Because I have

been avoiding feelings of defeat through not caring. But it has felt really

good. I don´t know if this is wrong.

>

> Now I have applied for school again (geology), I have got a girlfriend, and I

have moved in with her. And now the anxiety is back. Old thoughts like " I´m a

failure " and " I´ll never get through school because of my social anxiety " , and

" my girlfriend can´t know I´m anxious, because then she´ll dislike me " . The

whole shebang.

>

> So I really don´t know what to make of this. talks about the

" anxiety tiger " or something, which you feed with experiential avoidance. I can

see that I have been avoiding situations that have felt bad (situations where I

was needed or counted on, or where I would have to perform), but I have been

feeling little anxiety.

>

> I think this is hard to explain. I feel like whenever I face responsibility,

then anxiety is there. I have been feeling good partly because I thought

achievement didn´t matter, or at least that´s what I was telling myself. But now

when I am facing a situation where I feel I have to take initiative, then it

scares me like hell. I get very nervous and uptight. It feels kind of like

flipping a light switch, because the " joy of being " turns off. I get little out

of listening to music, because my head fills up with doubts about the future.

>

> This self-criticism and self-doubt can connect itself to anything, too. If

someone is talking about a subject they know a lot about, I can think:

>

> " I don´t know anything about that "

>

> and to

>

> " I am a total failure "

>

> When I am just an observer, I feel good. When I want to act, I am faced with

my anxiety and my pain of absence. Now I feel like I am faced with my pain of

absence every day, because of worrying about school and worrying about not being

an active part in the relationship with my girlfriend (having a bad job etc).

>

> So I don´t know. It feels like two modes. One where I kind of just observe and

feel, and things are okay if I just don´t involve myself, and the other where I

am really hard on myself, judging myself. In " action mode " I am constantly

doubting myself, trying to do the right thing, but not knowing what the right

thing is.

>

> Does anybody have any thoughts on this? If I am a big time experiential

avoider, should I change that? I don´t know what I want out of life, and I´m not

sure if it´s an education or lots of money.

>

>

> Any thoughts on this, anyone?

>

>

> Håkon

>

[Guest guest]

hi Hakon

Couple things come to my mind when i read your post....

firstly, our lives or how we choose to live it is simply one of many, and there

is no one life or way of living which one can say is better than another. If i

choose to be a beach bum and just work minimum wage or decide to live w nature

instead of in the city, well that is simply my choice, all lives are equally

valued, my life or the way i choose to live it is not any better or less than

another life, say of someone else who is a high achieving executive or even

president of so and so.

secondly, there comes a time when i / you may sense a change is needed, maybe

that is finding a life partner to get married, having children or family, or

trying to get a raise or promotion to support your family better, etc etc, these

often come up when thinking about our values.

an example is i recently decided to take technical seminar to better myself. at

the end of the seminar, i felt overwhelmed, i felt the info overload, and i was

kinda beating myself up inside for not knowing this already, etc etc. At the end

i thought about it, the world and the seminar and the world in which we work and

live in is the way it is... the technical info this seminar represents is simply

how the world works nowadays, this is reality, all i can do is to choose my

response, i can respond by saying i resist it which is a form of avoidance or i

can say to myself, well i will do the best that i can do, and that is it. This

lead to my thinking along the lines of CBT, to tackle my negative thoughts and

replace them w more positive thoughts like, ok, this material is complex, nobody

knows everything, and so all i can do is to do the best that i can and go from

there, or i have lotsa years experience, i know what i know, and that is good

enough and i can learn what i dont know , etc etc.

At the end i choose to take this seminar because i wanted something new or

different, new skills to help my work, so hopefully i can earn more money to

support my family in the future, etc etc. and i knew that if i dont take this

seminar, then nothing will change, i will be the same person w the same

knowledge next summer as i am this summer, and so my desire to change or

initiate change made me do it (take seminar).

It is this desire to initiate some form of change, ala connection to values ACT

style, which led to action.

Anyways, hope that helps.

Tom

>

> Hi, everyone.

>

> Been a while since I have been posting. I just wanted to tell you about my

situation, and maybe you have some insight to share.

>

> I have been struggling with depression and anxiety all my life, and for these

reasons I have not been able to complete an education. Now I work in a

bookstore, and I have been doing that since 2005, maybe (on and off). My last

bout of depression lasted maybe a whole year, from the summer of 2010 until the

summer of 2011. It started when I decided against going back to school (which I

was planning to do summer 2010). I fell straight into hellish depression, and

stayed there for almost a year.

>

> When things started feeling better (around summer 2011), I thought that was

great (naturally). I wasn´t doing anything in particular, but seeing more of

friends and maybe reading a bit. Anyway, I have been feeling good for a year

now. And that is what I want to talk about. Cause it has been a year full of

joy, where I have been happy and feeling kind of self-assured. I have taken

little action, though. Mostly small social visits, hanging out, reading and

listening to music. But the overall feeling has been one of happiness.

>

> So I have been passive, and it has been feeling good. I have been reading

Chuang-Tzu (taoist text), writings by Cage, and other texts to kind of

empower myself, and the thoughts " it doesn´t matter " have felt good. Whenever I

got worried about wasting my life, I could just think " it doesn´t matter " . I

love being in that state of happiness. Music sounds good, it feels good to be in

nature, watch movies. Just observing the world feels good, and I feel relaxed

(most of the time) and not self-critical.

>

> I think if there is a subtext to my good feelings, it is " people are

stupid " (because they try too hard) and " it doesn´t matter " . Does that sound

crazy? I don´t know. It kind of backed up my passive stance, since I didn´t have

to involve myself then. If I didn´t care, how could it hurt me?

>

> I think this fits quite nicely with experiential avoidance. Because I have

been avoiding feelings of defeat through not caring. But it has felt really

good. I don´t know if this is wrong.

>

> Now I have applied for school again (geology), I have got a girlfriend, and I

have moved in with her. And now the anxiety is back. Old thoughts like " I´m a

failure " and " I´ll never get through school because of my social anxiety " , and

" my girlfriend can´t know I´m anxious, because then she´ll dislike me " . The

whole shebang.

>

> So I really don´t know what to make of this. talks about the

" anxiety tiger " or something, which you feed with experiential avoidance. I can

see that I have been avoiding situations that have felt bad (situations where I

was needed or counted on, or where I would have to perform), but I have been

feeling little anxiety.

>

> I think this is hard to explain. I feel like whenever I face responsibility,

then anxiety is there. I have been feeling good partly because I thought

achievement didn´t matter, or at least that´s what I was telling myself. But now

when I am facing a situation where I feel I have to take initiative, then it

scares me like hell. I get very nervous and uptight. It feels kind of like

flipping a light switch, because the " joy of being " turns off. I get little out

of listening to music, because my head fills up with doubts about the future.

>

> This self-criticism and self-doubt can connect itself to anything, too. If

someone is talking about a subject they know a lot about, I can think:

>

> " I don´t know anything about that "

>

> and to

>

> " I am a total failure "

>

> When I am just an observer, I feel good. When I want to act, I am faced with

my anxiety and my pain of absence. Now I feel like I am faced with my pain of

absence every day, because of worrying about school and worrying about not being

an active part in the relationship with my girlfriend (having a bad job etc).

>

> So I don´t know. It feels like two modes. One where I kind of just observe and

feel, and things are okay if I just don´t involve myself, and the other where I

am really hard on myself, judging myself. In " action mode " I am constantly

doubting myself, trying to do the right thing, but not knowing what the right

thing is.

>

> Does anybody have any thoughts on this? If I am a big time experiential

avoider, should I change that? I don´t know what I want out of life, and I´m not

sure if it´s an education or lots of money.

>

>

> Any thoughts on this, anyone?

>

>

> Håkon

>

[Guest guest]

Hands up all those who've heard this voice: "No, I can't work on my values - I've still not mastered defusion or acceptance yet." Bah! I think there will be some people here who've read all the books, who have contributed to the forum for years, and yet have still not done values exercises, or have set out their goals. It is so tempting to think that you have to succeed at ACT in some rigidly sequential order. (Oooo, aren't I being cocky today!) Anyway, Hello Dee! I believe that there is no better place to start than with values work. These are usually stuck at the end of most of the ACT books, when they should be (I

not-so-humbly-suggest) right at the beginning. Work out where you roughly want to be heading, before you begin the journey. It is painful, because it sometimes acts to highlight how far away you might feel from the road you wish to take. But what you might also learn is that you can break the journey down into very small steps. Take a small step, even knowing you haven't mastered the wider ACT skills yet. It is liberating if you then make sure that you recognise what you've achieved. Actually you've already taken one step (you've reached out to this group, and we're listening). Recognise it. Give yourself a sticker. In fact, it sounds (if I'm not reading too much into one post) like you are still able to engage in social events (lovely actions and

values in there?), even though your mind tries to sabotage the pleasure you might have taken from them (rats, it does tend to do that!). Even when you've felt unable to join in with one circle of friends, you've gone out and sought a new group of people. This is encouraging! The mind is extraordinary in its capacity to see defeat everywhere, whilst being blind to victory. So where next? Let's get you some values, and start breaking them down into small achievable goals that you can give yourself during the week. The other ACT skills you can pick up on the way. x To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Tuesday, 12 June 2012, 21:28 Subject: Re: experiential avoidance

Thank you for this post Hakon. I have been lurking on here for well over a year (maybe 2) and it is time to step up and participate. Why now? Because life has become very difficult, of course. I come away from most social visits feeling like an invisible, useless, dull, slug of a human being. I have hidden myself so well that now no one even knows I am at the table. I feel resentful, hurt and disrespected, and worse, I know I have trained them to disregard me. It is such an uncomfortable position to be in that I want to escape into oblivion through some substance like alcohol or ice cream. I resonate so strongly with this feeling of being "nothing" I feel it is written all over my face (and it probably is). And I have managed to create this treatment of me wherever I land. I train a new group to ignore me and then I dump them in search of someone who will

"see" me. I miss my family of origin (all gone) as I could be myself around them without fear. I am closing down more and more.

I have all the books. Where should I start? Maybe that compassion book that recommended. Actually, I'll open The Wisdom to Know the Difference. Dee

[Guest guest]

Thank you, . I would love to know what others have uncovered, big or little, about their values journey. I want to give myself stickers! I would like to celebrate others' victories by giving them stickers! I want to see the successes and changes in myself and my life, and others, too. Their wins might inspire me to try something I hadn't thought of. Can we do that on this list? You remind me, , that this perspective also takes awareness, given the nature of our minds for filtering toward negative things on behalf of survival and safety.My husband died about 2 1/2 years ago. I was frightened and extremely lonely. I remember vividly the day, about 8 months ago, I got my leaden arms and hands to reach for the phone and call and ask a new acquaintance, a woman, to dinner. It was such a dark moment for some reason. I literally felt almost blind, as my field of vision had retreated that far. I felt like a wooden robot, going through motions. My breathing was labored. I thought I might die or disappear or get swallowed up or lose my mind. But it was a turning point, and it has become easier for me now, not nearly as dark. I do believe I need to contemplate and relish this fact and allow it to give me courage for other stuck points.Do others have a hard time with values? Sometimes I do because of feelings of unworthiness for my having a good life. Okay, I can sit with these feelings, see them, then try and move ahead, but given how distorted my thinking is, I have a hard time knowing what it is that's important to me. Should I run experiments just to try things out? That feels weird and hard and random. I would greatly appreciate what steps others have taken, big or small, in uncovering or discovering their values.Thank you in advance,Kathy

Hands up all those who've heard this voice: "No, I can't work on my values - I've still not mastered defusion or acceptance yet." Bah! I think there will be some people here who've read all the books, who have contributed to the forum for years, and yet have still not done values exercises, or have set out their goals. It is so tempting to think that you have to succeed at ACT in some rigidly sequential order. (Oooo, aren't I being cocky today!) Anyway, Hello Dee! I believe that there is no better place to start than with values work. These are usually stuck at the end of most of the ACT books, when they should be (I

not-so-humbly-suggest) right at the beginning. Work out where you roughly want to be heading, before you begin the journey. It is painful, because it sometimes acts to highlight how far away you might feel from the road you wish to take. But what you might also learn is that you can break the journey down into very small steps. Take a small step, even knowing you haven't mastered the wider ACT skills yet. It is liberating if you then make sure that you recognise what you've achieved. Actually you've already taken one step (you've reached out to this group, and we're listening). Recognise it. Give yourself a sticker. In fact, it sounds (if I'm not reading too much into one post) like you are still able to engage in social events (lovely actions and

values in there?), even though your mind tries to sabotage the pleasure you might have taken from them (rats, it does tend to do that!). Even when you've felt unable to join in with one circle of friends, you've gone out and sought a new group of people. This is encouraging! The mind is extraordinary in its capacity to see defeat everywhere, whilst being blind to victory. So where next? Let's get you some values, and start breaking them down into small achievable goals that you can give yourself during the week. The other ACT skills you can pick up on the way. x To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Tuesday, 12 June 2012, 21:28 Subject: Re: experiential avoidance

Thank you for this post Hakon. I have been lurking on here for well over a year (maybe 2) and it is time to step up and participate. Why now? Because life has become very difficult, of course. I come away from most social visits feeling like an invisible, useless, dull, slug of a human being. I have hidden myself so well that now no one even knows I am at the table. I feel resentful, hurt and disrespected, and worse, I know I have trained them to disregard me. It is such an uncomfortable position to be in that I want to escape into oblivion through some substance like alcohol or ice cream. I resonate so strongly with this feeling of being "nothing" I feel it is written all over my face (and it probably is). And I have managed to create this treatment of me wherever I land. I train a new group to ignore me and then I dump them in search of someone who will

"see" me. I miss my family of origin (all gone) as I could be myself around them without fear. I am closing down more and more.

I have all the books. Where should I start? Maybe that compassion book that recommended. Actually, I'll open The Wisdom to Know the Difference. Dee

[Guest guest]

Kathy my heart goes out to you and i hope you stick around to share your

thoughts and feelings.

Besides studying ACT, i have been working around w coming up w my own life

philosophy, and that is our lives are simply the SUM of our life experiences,

good and bad, highs and lows, sometimes to have a high such as a meaningful

relationship, we have to accept the possibility of lows, a loss of a partner.

This general life philosophy has left an imprint on my Values, it means family

vacations is very very important and so even though i can barely afford it i

have planned a big family vacation this july, this may mean saving as much

travel points as i can on my card or researching and bookign early enough to get

early bird discounts, planning and more planning, it means my relationship w my

wife is important and so even though our relationship even just last summer was

very very rocky, i made a committment to explore the meaning of our relationship

w each other and so little step by step our relationship has improved, it means

even though i hate it sometimes putting up w difficult people at work and doing

these expensive seminars is worth it because i value supporting my family and

putting bread on the table, etc etc.

I simply hope that at the end of me, i have left an imprint on someone close, my

wife and children, so that they will mourn me when i am not here.

This seemed a bit soppy but i thought i let it all hang out.

Tom

>

> >

> > Hands up all those who've heard this voice: " No, I can't work on my values

- I've still not mastered defusion or acceptance yet. " Bah! I think there will

be some people here who've read all the books, who have contributed to the forum

for years, and yet have still not done values exercises, or have set out their

goals. It is so tempting to think that you have to succeed at ACT in some

rigidly sequential order. (Oooo, aren't I being cocky today!)

> >

> > Anyway, Hello Dee!

> >

> > I believe that there is no better place to start than with values work.

These are usually stuck at the end of most of the ACT books, when they should be

(I not-so-humbly-suggest) right at the beginning. Work out where you roughly

want to be heading, before you begin the journey. It is painful, because it

sometimes acts to highlight how far away you might feel from the road you wish

to take. But what you might also learn is that you can break the journey down

into very small steps.

> >

> > Take a small step, even knowing you haven't mastered the wider ACT skills

yet. It is liberating if you then make sure that you recognise what you've

achieved. Actually you've already taken one step (you've reached out to this

group, and we're listening). Recognise it. Give yourself a sticker.

> >

> > In fact, it sounds (if I'm not reading too much into one post) like you are

still able to engage in social events (lovely actions and values in there?),

even though your mind tries to sabotage the pleasure you might have taken from

them (rats, it does tend to do that!). Even when you've felt unable to join in

with one circle of friends, you've gone out and sought a new group of people.

> >

> > This is encouraging! The mind is extraordinary in its capacity to see

defeat everywhere, whilst being blind to victory.

> >

> > So where next? Let's get you some values, and start breaking them down into

small achievable goals that you can give yourself during the week. The other

ACT skills you can pick up on the way.

> >

> > x

> >

> >

> > To: ACT_for_the_Public

> > Sent: Tuesday, 12 June 2012, 21:28

> > Subject: Re: experiential avoidance

> >

> >

> > Thank you for this post Hakon. I have been lurking on here for well over a

year (maybe 2) and it is time to step up and participate. Why now? Because

life has become very difficult, of course.

> >

> > I come away from most social visits feeling like an invisible, useless,

dull, slug of a human being. I have hidden myself so well that now no one even

knows I am at the table. I feel resentful, hurt and disrespected, and worse, I

know I have trained them to disregard me. It is such an uncomfortable position

to be in that I want to escape into oblivion through some substance like alcohol

or ice cream. I resonate so strongly with this feeling of being " nothing " I

feel it is written all over my face (and it probably is). And I have managed to

create this treatment of me wherever I land. I train a new group to ignore me

and then I dump them in search of someone who will " see " me. I miss my family

of origin (all gone) as I could be myself around them without fear. I am

closing down more and more.

> >

> > I have all the books. Where should I start? Maybe that compassion book

that recommended. Actually, I'll open The Wisdom to Know the

Difference.

> >

> > Dee

> >

> >

> >

> >

>