New Person

[Guest guest]

Oh wow! The coolrunning site is exactly what I need! There's actually

no s in the site address, though. The s version is for Jamaican

incense. LOL.

Thanks everybody for your advice. I'm sad to report I haven't had a

chance to actually run yet. Yesterday it was already around 83 degrees

when I woke up, so I settled for walking the dog. No point in giving

myself heat stroke.

With my crazy schedule, my next chance to run will be tomorrow. Yay!

I'm so ready to do this! I want to feel like Tory.

Cheers,

Liz

> I just started running too. I'm doing the Couch Potato to 5k

training

> schedule on coolrunnings.com. I feel like a million bucks! I've run

only

> two times, but whoa. I ran! When I was in school I hated PE and

running

> with a passion. In fact, the last time I ran was around the same

track I

> ran on Sunday (my first run) and I hated it...and I threw up after

and

> vowed I would never run again. My gosh, I'm in better shape now than

I

> was in 9th grade!

>

> A good neoprene waist pack would be good for carrying things. They

make

> them for carrying your CD player. It fits very close to your body so

it

> isn't bouncing around, and would carry your keys. Some have a holder

for

> a water bottle too.

>

> I ran today with a water bottle in my hand. It was a nice shape so

easy

> to hang onto. I need to make sure I fill it next time, though. LOL

(I

> had worked out at Curves before the run and had drank all the water.

> What a dork.)

>

> Re: new person

>

>

> Or rather

> > alternating between jogging and walking. Does anyone have any

advice

> > about that? For example, what should I do with my keys? I can't

very

> > well carry a purse while I run!

> >

> I haven't jogged since the 80's, but when I did, what I found MOST

> helpful

> was having a really good paid of shoes. I adored Saucony Lady Jazz,

but

> I

> think they discontinued it. Very cushioned...

>

> As for keys, there was a little pouch one could buy that would fit

the

> key

> and then you'd tie the little pouch to your shoelaces. You could

also

> keep

> the one key in a pocket, I suppose. I wonder if they put pockets

into

> sports bras? I'm sure if you go to a running shoes/sports equipment

> place

> they'll have stuff. I imagine leaving the key under the doormat

isn't an

> option in Manhattan, like it is here in other parts of the world.

>

> Speaking of sports bras, if you're jogging and are shaped like a

real

> woman,

> you need one. Otherwise your boobies bounce so much they hurt. And

if

> you've

> got a lot to bounce, I'd recommend a bra that zips up the middle,

> otherwise

> you have to be a contortionist to get the thing on.

>

> Oh, and figure out where you're going to get water...a park water

> fountain,

> can you carry a water bottle? You need to stay hydrated, especially

in

> summer, and I think it gets pretty hot in Manhattan in summer. You

also

> want

> to keep an ID on your person somewhere, in case of emergencies.

>

> Good luck.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I am new here too. First I want to say that I too have lived far

away from my mother (bpd)since I graduated from grad school. I have

found that the distance helps me to keep sane. When I married my

husband 18 years ago she said the very same things to me " I told my

mother everything about my husband. You don't talk to me anymore.

yadayadayada " . Eventually I became so depressed and angry that I

began to work with the 6th or 7th counselor over the years and he

helped me see her as a bpd and begin to build my own identity. That

was 10 years ago. These days we have phone contact primarily, once

a week. During the past three months, however, I have been around

her physically way to much!!!! Between Thanksgiving, Christmas, and

my father's death (they were divorced)there was way too much contact

and too much exposure to her behaviors. I limited myself strictly.

I understand however the guilt you feel. It is a nameless, oozing

thing that rushes over me when I am standing up for myself. I have

not contemplated leaving my husband, children, work to make my mom

happy and me handle my guilt. I am too committed to my freedom.

Besides, I lived a good portion of my life promising myself I would

not do things the way she did. Don't sacrifice yourself or your

marriage in order to stop the guilt. I found no matter how many

concessions I made to my mom. it is never enough and I never get out

of her what I long for, the acknowledgement of me as a separate

person and identity from her.

sh

In WTOAdultChildren1 , " chris.bennett74 "

wrote:

>

> Hi all,

> I came accross this site at the beginning of this year. I came

> accross various books on BPD a few months ago. I am in the middle

of

> a horrible situation. Although not professionally diagnosed, I am

> sure my mom has BPD. My childhood was great ( and then again I was

> the ultimate good child). I am an only child. I never questioned

> anything I was told to do because, of course, my parents only

wanted

> what was best for me. Then, I met someone after finishing med

school

> and lived away at that time( parents on one coast and I on the

other

> and still am). I was still always my parent's baby(calling them

upto

> 5-6 times a day and discussing every detail of my life even my

dating

> with my mom, and now I do 3-4 times-----that is all part of the

> guilt, I feel like I have no choice). I had a difficult time with

> having this relationship with my then boyfriend, and now husband,

> since they(mostly mom) would not let go. She still has not. Still

we

> were given an awesome wedding (by both sets of parents). But

things

> just got worse. Too much interference from my mom and I did not

have

> the guts to stand up to her(it would take a book to go over them

> all). She feels/felt I have abandoned her and gone away because

when

> I was away at school, I always said I would come back home and

stay

> close to them( and believe me, my husband and I would have but

things

> just got so bad with control and anger that now my husband does

not

> want to even be in the same state). Then once when I finally did

> stand up for my husband and myself, she stopped talking with me

for

> weeks. There have been several cycles of this NC(from mom's side)

> versus calling 3-4 times a day through the past 7 years. And yes,

I

> do cave in to her ideas because I just feel so guilty. My husband

and

> I are coming to our 5th anniversary in March. We have both come to

a

> conclusion ( actually I am doing this and he has been very kind

and

> helpful through all this)that I should at least go and stay close

to

> my parents for sometime and maybe one day I will get up the

courage

> to tell her that I need to live my own life and return to my

husband.

> My fear is that that may not happen and that she will force me to

> divorce him. Courage because the guilt is killing me(I cry

everyday

> and don't think it is fair to my husband either----he deserves a

> better/stronger partner in life)and I am afraid for my dad's

health

> too(he is asthmatic and gets worse each time my mom has a raging

> episode). We don't have any kids yet although this would be an

ideal

> time for us to have our own family, we can afford it financially

and

> are responsible, professional adults(except for that 2 year old-me

in

> front of my mom). I frustrate myself too. I feel foolish for doing

> this but also feel responsible to try to help my mom(she really

has

> done so much for me throughout my life).

> I would like to know if anyone else has ever considered giving up

> their spouse or atleast temporarily moved back close to the BP

parent

> and away from their spouse to try to help their BPD parent? I am

> hoping to talk and atleast get her therapy although in the past

she

> stopped therapy for depression( I think she was misdiagnosed as

BPD

> usually is) because she hated the way the meds made her feel and

the

> therapist said she could not help her anymore. Any ideas?

> Thanks for listenening. I wish I was stronger.

> CB

>

[Guest guest]

>chris wrote: > I would like to know if anyone else has ever

>considered giving up > their spouse or atleast temporarily moved

>back close to the BP >parent and away from their spouse to try to

>help their BPD parent?

I understand your pain of trying to deal with this, but a couple of

questions popped in my head as I was reading your letter.

Would a healthy parent really expect a sacrifice like that?

Do they really have YOUR best interests at heart?

Do you think that even if you lose your spouse, and try to make them

happy, that they will not continue to ask for additional sacrifices?

Why haven't they figured out it is time to let you live your own life?

** You wrote that " I wish I was stronger " . You are stronger then you

have ever dreamed you could be. You just have to start taking baby

steps. Take only one call per day, then every other day. Practice

saying " I am sorry you feel that way " , AND THEN SAY NOTHING ELSE.

Read the book: Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her

Children Transcend the Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile

Relationship, by Ann Lawson.

I am trying to practice good recovery etiquette and not give advice,

but please think about this. One of these days both of your parents

will be gone, and you will be left without a life of your own. And

you Deserve a life of your own choosing without trying to do the

impossible task of trying please everyone. I don't care how good she

has been to you, you do not " owe " her your life and happiness.

TWYWALTR,

[Guest guest]

CB,

I would strongly echo 's response to your post. Before making

any hard and fast decisions that affect the rest of your life, maybe

you could consider setting a 'fact-finding' period of time? You

could designate a time frame with your husband where you both do soul-

searching, maybe some therapy and some reading/research and not come

to a conclusion about your mutual futures until you've completed that

time together. I am trying also to not push you in one direction or

another but I would strongly caution you as you consider making such

life-altering adjustments.

My heart goes out to you. Consider this, does being stronger happen

all at once or is it a gradual process? Look at it in the physical

for example, does it take just one trip to the gym to be a body-

builder or even just physically fit? Toning your muscles, physically

or emotionally, is a process. All it takes is a bunch of baby-

steps. You have to crawl before you walk and run.

Welcome.

Kindest regards,

Mercy

>

>

> > I would like to know if anyone else has ever considered giving up

> their spouse or atleast temporarily moved back close to the BP

parent

> and away from their spouse to try to help their BPD parent? I am

> hoping to talk and atleast get her therapy although in the past she

> stopped therapy for depression( I think she was misdiagnosed as BPD

> usually is) because she hated the way the meds made her feel and

the

> therapist said she could not help her anymore. Any ideas?

> Thanks for listenening. I wish I was stronger.

> CB

>

[Guest guest]

I have been on a four year chaos train (going nowhere) as a result of

your question, " ...anyone ever considered giving up their spouse or

at least temporarily moved back close to the the BP parent and away

from their spouse to try to help their BPD parent? "

OH MY! I've been there! Jump off the train. Don't go back!

I have been separated (living alone) for four years as a result of my

choice of Nada over my husband. I took the time to go to my mother's

side under the impression she was " dying " and " needing me "

desperately. At that point, gangrene had set in both of her ankles

as a result of poor circulation and congestive heart issues. She

wasn't taking care of herself and the neglect caught up with her.

Her ankles were 37 " around (yep, at the foot). It was a traumatic

time! I spent one hour before work and 1-2 hours after work each day

helping to clean her wounds and apply medication because my father

was too rough with her and my brother didn't want to be bothered with

her needs. My marriage suffered. My personal life disappeared. I

cashed in my 401(k) to help my parents through this time. I started

legal proceedings one year later to garner legal guardianship over my

mother. My father protested the guardianship for fear that I would

cause him more problems that it would be worth. It somewhat freaked

me out that I would become a 50/50 decision-maker with my father

(much like a spouse) if I stepped in as her legal guardian.

I talked (at length) with my nada and father, during these four

years. Nada was hospitalized for psychotic episodes and/or mania at

least five times in the past years. She spent four months in the

hospital, last year, for her mental issues. She filed for divorce

while in there the last time and that resulted in her being let out.

The crazy train continues to run, but I'm not on it. I chose to walk

away from all of that. I've been riding, chasing or fixing that damn

train for 11 years! I first got involved in all of the mental health

issues when nada was hospitalized following the death of her mother.

She disassociated and launched into a number of protective mental

health issues as a result of that traumatic event in her life. I

would contend her biggest abuser died that January of 1997.

Every winter since that time has resulted in a variety of mental

issues in relation to the upcoming " holiday " ...

Anyone else HATE holidays because of all the drama associated with

them?

Back to you, Chris...

Please take the time to CAREFULLY consider the repercussions of your

returning to " help " your parent with BPD. What do you want to

accomplish? Will it really help? Be realistic with yourself...

Consider what you've done before and how effective your attempts have

been. We can't change our parents no matter how much we WANT to...

____________________

" I would like to know if anyone else has ever considered giving up

their spouse or atleast temporarily moved back close to the BP parent

and away from their spouse to try to help their BPD parent? I am

hoping to talk and atleast get her therapy although in the past she

stopped therapy for depression( I think she was misdiagnosed as BPD

usually is) because she hated the way the meds made her feel and the

therapist said she could not help her anymore. Any ideas? "

Thanks for listenening. I wish I was stronger.

CB

____________________________

[Guest guest]

hold my internet hand and let's head for the hills!

> I would like to know if anyone else has ever

> > >considered giving up > their spouse or atleast temporarily

moved

> > >back close to the BP >parent and away from their spouse to try

to

> > >help their BPD parent?

> >

> >

> > I understand your pain of trying to deal with this, but a couple

> of

> > questions popped in my head as I was reading your letter.

> >

> > Would a healthy parent really expect a sacrifice like that?

> >

> > Do they really have YOUR best interests at heart?

> >

> > Do you think that even if you lose your spouse, and try to make

> them

> > happy, that they will not continue to ask for additional

> sacrifices?

> >

> > Why haven't they figured out it is time to let you live your own

> life?

> >

> > ** You wrote that " I wish I was stronger " . You are stronger

then

> you

> > have ever dreamed you could be. You just have to start taking

> baby

> > steps. Take only one call per day, then every other day.

> Practice

> > saying " I am sorry you feel that way " , AND THEN SAY NOTHING ELSE.

> >

> > Read the book: Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her

> > Children Transcend the Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile

> > Relationship, by Ann Lawson.

> >

> > I am trying to practice good recovery etiquette and not give

> advice,

> > but please think about this. One of these days both of your

> parents

> > will be gone, and you will be left without a life of your own.

> And

> > you Deserve a life of your own choosing without trying to do the

> > impossible task of trying please everyone. I don't care how

good

> she

> > has been to you, you do not " owe " her your life and happiness.

> >

> > TWYWALTR,

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

have i ever considered giving up my husband for my mom?

no. no. no. no. no. no. no. no. no. no. absolutely not.

in fact, my husband wouldn't let me do anything like this. he knows

what kind of mom my mom was and wants to protect me from her just like

i want to protect the whole world from her. i beg you to reconsider

because this will probably not turn out well. the fact that she lives

with a man who experiences physical harm when she acts up, yet she

does nothing to change her behavior is just further evidence that she

doesn't care about those around her and your being there will do no

good to either you or her.

bink

>

> Hi all,

> I came accross this site at the beginning of this year. I came

> accross various books on BPD a few months ago. I am in the middle of

> a horrible situation. Although not professionally diagnosed, I am

> sure my mom has BPD. My childhood was great ( and then again I was

> the ultimate good child). I am an only child. I never questioned

> anything I was told to do because, of course, my parents only wanted

> what was best for me. Then, I met someone after finishing med school

> and lived away at that time( parents on one coast and I on the other

> and still am). I was still always my parent's baby(calling them upto

> 5-6 times a day and discussing every detail of my life even my dating

> with my mom, and now I do 3-4 times-----that is all part of the

> guilt, I feel like I have no choice). I had a difficult time with

> having this relationship with my then boyfriend, and now husband,

> since they(mostly mom) would not let go. She still has not. Still we

> were given an awesome wedding (by both sets of parents). But things

> just got worse. Too much interference from my mom and I did not have

> the guts to stand up to her(it would take a book to go over them

> all). She feels/felt I have abandoned her and gone away because when

> I was away at school, I always said I would come back home and stay

> close to them( and believe me, my husband and I would have but things

> just got so bad with control and anger that now my husband does not

> want to even be in the same state). Then once when I finally did

> stand up for my husband and myself, she stopped talking with me for

> weeks. There have been several cycles of this NC(from mom's side)

> versus calling 3-4 times a day through the past 7 years. And yes, I

> do cave in to her ideas because I just feel so guilty. My husband and

> I are coming to our 5th anniversary in March. We have both come to a

> conclusion ( actually I am doing this and he has been very kind and

> helpful through all this)that I should at least go and stay close to

> my parents for sometime and maybe one day I will get up the courage

> to tell her that I need to live my own life and return to my husband.

> My fear is that that may not happen and that she will force me to

> divorce him. Courage because the guilt is killing me(I cry everyday

> and don't think it is fair to my husband either----he deserves a

> better/stronger partner in life)and I am afraid for my dad's health

> too(he is asthmatic and gets worse each time my mom has a raging

> episode). We don't have any kids yet although this would be an ideal

> time for us to have our own family, we can afford it financially and

> are responsible, professional adults(except for that 2 year old-me in

> front of my mom). I frustrate myself too. I feel foolish for doing

> this but also feel responsible to try to help my mom(she really has

> done so much for me throughout my life).

> I would like to know if anyone else has ever considered giving up

> their spouse or atleast temporarily moved back close to the BP parent

> and away from their spouse to try to help their BPD parent? I am

> hoping to talk and atleast get her therapy although in the past she

> stopped therapy for depression( I think she was misdiagnosed as BPD

> usually is) because she hated the way the meds made her feel and the

> therapist said she could not help her anymore. Any ideas?

> Thanks for listenening. I wish I was stronger.

> CB

>

[Guest guest]

This question comes to mind... " Why would you even consider giving up

your life again to someone who is mentally ill? It's like a mouse,

seeing that a piece of cheese is in a trap and taking it anyways.

Come on folks. Don't play into their hands! And I speak to myself

also. Let go of the guilt and let God. Isn't that what they say?

I think it is a BPD fantasy come true for us to surrender to their

every whim, surrender our lives to them. Of course, that has got

to be a huge ego rub. But you know what, they'll have to find some

flattery some place else to fill the void.

It seems like my BPD mom has some how linked the entire giving of

your soul to her with her self esteem as a person. She can't

survive without you doing this...that seems to be the attitude.

That is too much too ask. And I can bet she wouldn't do the same

for you.

> >

> > Hi all,

> > I came accross this site at the beginning of this year. I came

> > accross various books on BPD a few months ago. I am in the

middle of

> > a horrible situation. Although not professionally diagnosed, I

am

> > sure my mom has BPD. My childhood was great ( and then again I

was

> > the ultimate good child). I am an only child. I never questioned

> > anything I was told to do because, of course, my parents only

wanted

> > what was best for me. Then, I met someone after finishing med

school

> > and lived away at that time( parents on one coast and I on the

other

> > and still am). I was still always my parent's baby(calling them

upto

> > 5-6 times a day and discussing every detail of my life even my

dating

> > with my mom, and now I do 3-4 times-----that is all part of the

> > guilt, I feel like I have no choice). I had a difficult time

with

> > having this relationship with my then boyfriend, and now

husband,

> > since they(mostly mom) would not let go. She still has not.

Still we

> > were given an awesome wedding (by both sets of parents). But

things

> > just got worse. Too much interference from my mom and I did not

have

> > the guts to stand up to her(it would take a book to go over them

> > all). She feels/felt I have abandoned her and gone away because

when

> > I was away at school, I always said I would come back home and

stay

> > close to them( and believe me, my husband and I would have but

things

> > just got so bad with control and anger that now my husband does

not

> > want to even be in the same state). Then once when I finally did

> > stand up for my husband and myself, she stopped talking with me

for

> > weeks. There have been several cycles of this NC(from mom's

side)

> > versus calling 3-4 times a day through the past 7 years. And

yes, I

> > do cave in to her ideas because I just feel so guilty. My

husband and

> > I are coming to our 5th anniversary in March. We have both come

to a

> > conclusion ( actually I am doing this and he has been very kind

and

> > helpful through all this)that I should at least go and stay

close to

> > my parents for sometime and maybe one day I will get up the

courage

> > to tell her that I need to live my own life and return to my

husband.

> > My fear is that that may not happen and that she will force me

to

> > divorce him. Courage because the guilt is killing me(I cry

everyday

> > and don't think it is fair to my husband either----he deserves a

> > better/stronger partner in life)and I am afraid for my dad's

health

> > too(he is asthmatic and gets worse each time my mom has a raging

> > episode). We don't have any kids yet although this would be an

ideal

> > time for us to have our own family, we can afford it financially

and

> > are responsible, professional adults(except for that 2 year old-

me in

> > front of my mom). I frustrate myself too. I feel foolish for

doing

> > this but also feel responsible to try to help my mom(she really

has

> > done so much for me throughout my life).

> > I would like to know if anyone else has ever considered giving

up

> > their spouse or atleast temporarily moved back close to the BP

parent

> > and away from their spouse to try to help their BPD parent? I am

> > hoping to talk and atleast get her therapy although in the past

she

> > stopped therapy for depression( I think she was misdiagnosed as

BPD

> > usually is) because she hated the way the meds made her feel and

the

> > therapist said she could not help her anymore. Any ideas?

> > Thanks for listenening. I wish I was stronger.

> > CB

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Don't do it. I don't want to sound harsh, but my honest, blunt answer is that

you are in completely inside the strange, warped, harmful web of BP " reality. "

For years I felt guilt for my mother --- how would she take care of herself

without me? How could she live alone? HO would she manged to be happy? What if

she's lonely? Blah blah blah ...

When I was 18 something inside clicked and I knew I had to be away from her. I

have been low to no contact off and on since then. And never lived closer than

multiple states away. I am now 37. Anytime over the past years, if low contact

starts to become more, then the phone calls and non-stop calling starts so I go

back to low. The cycle never changes. Here's the thing: have you considered that

some of the things you consider " normal " and part of your relationship when it

was good AREN'T normal at all? I don't want to dismiss the good childhood you

had, so that's not why I am saying this, but my mom too ... if I let it happen

would want to talk 3-4-5 times a day. When I was in high school she wanted to

talk about all my dates, even wanting details about anatomical sizes of boy

friends ... in short, wanting to banter as if we were friends. I didn't always

know that this was inappropriate. When I was a teen I probably told her some

things that I should have saved for

friends, but now I KNOW it was too much. Not appropriate at all. Talking that

much every day isn't necessarily good. In fact, BP behavior in a " nice outfit "

sets the stage for the BP behavior in " tattered, ugly rags " that happens later.

I am all worked up here because this is familiar. I want to give you a big hug

and say don't do it. This guilt, this sense of responsibility you feel is not

normal, but very much within the BP relationship vortex. Do you love your

husband? If you love him, moving away does not seem like a solution, or a

temporary thing, but very much a choice. If you love him I would consider

finding a therapist, calling and making an appointment as soon as you can, and

putting the brakes on any decision until you work through these feelings of

guilt that you have and start learning how to think about yourself first.

You say your mother has done so much for you. She is your mother. You DON'T

owe her payment for that. You DO owe yourself to live a life that is authentic

to you that respects your needs and frees you to LOVE HOW AND WHO AND WHERE YOU

WANT TO DO THAT LOVING. You say your mother has done so much for you. The best

thing she could do for you and should do for you is wish you a happy life,

whatever form (and in whatever state) that takes. And, yes, things sound bad for

your dad, but he is an adult too. If he is living with a BP then he is making

that choice everyday. Maybe you could encourage him to work through his

relationship with her ... with therapy, for instance. He doesn't have to stay

either and it is not your responsibiltiy to move to the same state to guard him

against her; there are other ways you can help him become more empowered.

I hope you don't mind my complete honesty here, because I am not meaning to

sound harsh, but I am saying all the things to you that I would want someone to

say to me if I were in your shoes.

Good luck and please think of your needs and your wants first: EMPOWERMENT!

Crockett

bink1227 wrote:

have i ever considered giving up my husband for my mom?

no. no. no. no. no. no. no. no. no. no. absolutely not.

in fact, my husband wouldn't let me do anything like this. he knows

what kind of mom my mom was and wants to protect me from her just like

i want to protect the whole world from her. i beg you to reconsider

because this will probably not turn out well. the fact that she lives

with a man who experiences physical harm when she acts up, yet she

does nothing to change her behavior is just further evidence that she

doesn't care about those around her and your being there will do no

good to either you or her.

bink

>

> Hi all,

> I came accross this site at the beginning of this year. I came

> accross various books on BPD a few months ago. I am in the middle of

> a horrible situation. Although not professionally diagnosed, I am

> sure my mom has BPD. My childhood was great ( and then again I was

> the ultimate good child). I am an only child. I never questioned

> anything I was told to do because, of course, my parents only wanted

> what was best for me. Then, I met someone after finishing med school

> and lived away at that time( parents on one coast and I on the other

> and still am). I was still always my parent's baby(calling them upto

> 5-6 times a day and discussing every detail of my life even my dating

> with my mom, and now I do 3-4 times-----that is all part of the

> guilt, I feel like I have no choice). I had a difficult time with

> having this relationship with my then boyfriend, and now husband,

> since they(mostly mom) would not let go. She still has not. Still we

> were given an awesome wedding (by both sets of parents). But things

> just got worse. Too much interference from my mom and I did not have

> the guts to stand up to her(it would take a book to go over them

> all). She feels/felt I have abandoned her and gone away because when

> I was away at school, I always said I would come back home and stay

> close to them( and believe me, my husband and I would have but things

> just got so bad with control and anger that now my husband does not

> want to even be in the same state). Then once when I finally did

> stand up for my husband and myself, she stopped talking with me for

> weeks. There have been several cycles of this NC(from mom's side)

> versus calling 3-4 times a day through the past 7 years. And yes, I

> do cave in to her ideas because I just feel so guilty. My husband and

> I are coming to our 5th anniversary in March. We have both come to a

> conclusion ( actually I am doing this and he has been very kind and

> helpful through all this)that I should at least go and stay close to

> my parents for sometime and maybe one day I will get up the courage

> to tell her that I need to live my own life and return to my husband.

> My fear is that that may not happen and that she will force me to

> divorce him. Courage because the guilt is killing me(I cry everyday

> and don't think it is fair to my husband either----he deserves a

> better/stronger partner in life)and I am afraid for my dad's health

> too(he is asthmatic and gets worse each time my mom has a raging

> episode). We don't have any kids yet although this would be an ideal

> time for us to have our own family, we can afford it financially and

> are responsible, professional adults(except for that 2 year old-me in

> front of my mom). I frustrate myself too. I feel foolish for doing

> this but also feel responsible to try to help my mom(she really has

> done so much for me throughout my life).

> I would like to know if anyone else has ever considered giving up

> their spouse or atleast temporarily moved back close to the BP parent

> and away from their spouse to try to help their BPD parent? I am

> hoping to talk and atleast get her therapy although in the past she

> stopped therapy for depression( I think she was misdiagnosed as BPD

> usually is) because she hated the way the meds made her feel and the

> therapist said she could not help her anymore. Any ideas?

> Thanks for listenening. I wish I was stronger.

> CB

>

---------------------------------

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Guest guest]

>

> This question comes to mind... " Why would you even consider giving

up

> your life again to someone who is mentally ill? It's like a

mouse,

> seeing that a piece of cheese is in a trap and taking it anyways.

>

> Come on folks. Don't play into their hands! And I speak to

myself

> also. Let go of the guilt and let God. Isn't that what they say?

>

> I think it is a BPD fantasy come true for us to surrender to their

> every whim, surrender our lives to them. Of course, that has

got

> to be a huge ego rub. But you know what, they'll have to find

some

> flattery some place else to fill the void.

>

> It seems like my BPD mom has some how linked the entire giving of

> your soul to her with her self esteem as a person. She can't

> survive without you doing this...that seems to be the attitude.

> That is too much too ask. And I can bet she wouldn't do the same

> for you.

>

>

Great post. I think where it is at for me is that I now know that

bpd's carry SO much guilt and shame that they are not capable of

processing. Maybe the damaging events that caused them to get stuck

happened when they were pre-verbal, or their brain wasn't fully

formed, or the mind games/abuse was too sophisticated to articulate

even mentally, much less verbally. At any rate they are stuck with

an unbelievable amount of self-loathing/shame, no matter their

ability to give a good first impression and seem like a 'great

catch' on the surface. And all that emotional 'gook' has got to go

somewhere, and go somewhere it will, right up my hiney-hole in the

end, sorry to be crude but it's the truth. They are like an

electrolyte that is constantly looking to discharge ions to come

back in balance (because no one can live in guilt and shame 24/7

without a release). They do it on familiar people (lovers, family,

children) who stuck around because they have to or are hooked in

somehow. The 'hook' for me is that my dad has the bdp charisma and I

pick up on that, I also have a sixth sense for that family

dysfunction, it feels like home to me...it feels like love. Anymore

I know that any time I feel 'love at first sight' for someone I

should run fast in the other direction. But I didn't really

understand what was happening, exactly, until I started reading

here. I've been single a long time and I am willing to go a whole

lot longer than live in the hell of being with a bpd or anyone else

who is cut off from their own conscience (through addiction, etc).

[Guest guest]

you just told my story. This is sort of what happened with me

and my BP mother. I think the dynamics are the same. I moved to the

east coast the year before I was married to be with my fiance. We went

back to the west coast for the wedding. And went back east after the

wedding. Mom always assumed I would come home in a year or two,

because my husband's job was temporary. (2 years) She figured he'd do

the time, get a job out west and we'd come back. To be perfectly

honest, that's the way I thought it would go too.

It didn't work out that way. My husband got a permanent job on the

east coast and here we stayed. Mom has never forgiven me. And I don't

think she has forgiven my husband either. In fact, she said my

husband " took my daughter away from me " . Direct quote. Like I'm some

toy or possession. That really pissed me off. Even more than I was

pissed off at the time.

I've been meaning to tell this story for awhile and maybe nows the

time to do it. It is the reason I went LC/NC with my mom. Hold on,

it's a long one.

..........

Not long after 9/11, my mother was diagnosed with Non-Hodgkin's

Lymphoma - cancer. I put my life on hold, quit my job and left my

husband for 4 months to go help her through chemo. It was rough

because I knew what my mother was like and more than a few days with

her sets me on edge. I went home at the end of January. I simply

couldn't put off my own life any more. She was through chemo, I saw

her through the first of the radiation and I figured she really didn't

need me any more.

So I went home to my husband and his mother. Yes, my mother-in-law

(MIL) was living with us at the time, something my mother deeply

resented (I found out later.) My MIL could no longer live by herself.

She was in the early/moderate stages of Alzheimer's disease. (AD) My

husband has a sister and my MIL lived with her for a time, but it was

pretty disastrous. My MIL and her daughter didn't really get along,

and MIL hadn't gotten her medication totally straightened out yet.

She was extremely paranoid. (This is one of the effects of AD.

Hallucinating is another. She did that later.) She tried to climb

out the windows at my sister-in-law's (SIL) house because she didn't

know where she was. At one time, she threatened SILs daughter (her

own granddaughter) because she didn't know who she was. SIL was at

her wits end. So my husband said he'd take her. I didn't exactly

relish the thought of living with my MIL, but I knew that this was the

best solution at the time. We didn't exactly have the space, we were

in a rental and hadn't quite gotten around to buying a house yet. But

we were coping. Husband got her on some new medication and into an

experimental drug program at town, so then she had to stay with

us after that. At least til the study was finished.

So anyway, such was the situation at the end of 2002. Now the real

story begins.

My mom was cancer free by this time. Since my grandmother had died in

2000, I knew my mom was by herself for the holidays. So I invited her

to spend them with us. I felt sorry for her. The day after

Christmas, we were flying to Florida to visit my SIL and her family

for New Years. And here's where I screwed up. I invited my mom to

come with us. Oh, what a mistake. (I'd cleared it with my SIL of

course. She kinda felt sorry for my mom too, at the time)

I figured mom would enjoy a warm winter vacation. So wrong. That

week in Florida was hell. My mom was pissy the entire time and my

husband and I spent most of our time " walking on eggshells " around her

and bending over backwards trying to please her. My SIL didn't see

much of this, because she was spending a lot of time with my MIL.

Something that was completely misinterpreted by my mother. Everything

came to a head on our last day.

On the pretext of thanking my SIL for her hospitality (HA!) my mom

proceeded to insinuate that my SIL was a bad daughter for not having

her mother live with her. She just went on and on, got my niece

involved ( " Don't you want your grandma to live with you? " ), and when

my SIL tried to explain some of the situation and that their finances

were a little tight at the time, mom proceeded to tell her how to

spend her money. I was standing there listening to all this bulls***

coming from mom's mouth and was completely speechless. My SIL later

told me it felt like she was being attacked; I knew how she felt

because mom had often done the same thing to me and that's what it

feels like. It was like watching an accident happen and you could do

nothing to prevent it. And I didn't know what to do. (I certainly

know what to do now, I know a lot more about BPD and border setting

than I did then, but hindsight is 20/20.)

Anyway, the conversation finished and we all went out to the car. (We

were all going to lunch, then coming back, getting the luggage and

going to the airport.) As my SIL was starting up the car, she let my

mom have it. Told her it was none of her business how she spent her

money and that she (my mom) had no business telling her how to run her

life. All of which was true. At this the whole car was speechless.

Then mom spoke up, said maybe she wouldn't go to lunch with us since

we didn't want her. SIL said fine, and let her back in the house.

At that very moment, I realized that mom expected me to go with her

and at the very next moment, I realized what at least part of this

whole scene was about. She was trying to drive a wedge between my

husband and me. She was using my SIL to create a polarizing

situation. Mom on one side, SIL on the other. She of course expected

my husband to take his sister's side. And of course she expected me

to take her side. She was trying to force me to choose between my

husband and her. And I was infuriated. By that time, I'd learned

enough about " normal " people to realize mothers aren't supposed to do

this. But I didn't know enough specifically about BPD, and " queens "

in particular. (mom is a BP queen, you'll find out what that means

soon.) I wasn't sure how to defuse the situation and I was pretty sure

that when we got back to the house, my mom would be gone.

(Another side note for giggles-This happened later: My mom expected me

to take her side, and my husband to take his sister's. She got that

wrong too. I thought SIL had every right to tell my mom off after

what she'd said to her. My husband said his sister needed to learn to

keep her mouth shut. Irony anyone??)

Getting between my husband and me was only part of the equation, and I

knew that. Mom was also upset because it seemed like MIL was getting

all the attention. SIL spent a lot of time with MIL that week, not

because she missed her mom so much, but because she wanted to give us

(me and husband) a break. We were the ones who had to care for her

full time. SIL wanted us to have a vacation (of sorts) and spend time

with MY mom. Being abnormal, mom totally misconstrued this. She saw

it as MIL and her daughter and granddaughter are very close. Why

isn't she with her daughter? Mom also saw that SIL and her husband

had a house of their own with an attached in-law suite, and newer

model cars. My husband was driving a 20 year old car with no AC or

radio, I was driving a 10 year old car, and we were living in a

cramped rental with only 1 full bathroom. Mom had to sleep in the

living room on the sofabed because MIL had the spare room. This is

what mom saw. She saw me and my husband struggling, and my husband's

sister and her family living off the fat of the land, with an in-law

suite. The perfect place for my MIL. But mom didn't know the whole

story, not that it was any of her business.

My MIL wouldn't stay in the in-law by herself, she was terrified to be

alone. When she was with my SIL she usually slept in her

granddaughters room. I already mentioned the paranoia and threatening

her granddaughter. If someone was threatening your child, wouldn't

you be afraid to have her in your home? Even if it was your own

mother? And my SIL and my MIL never, ever got along. My husband was

my MIL's favorite child and he has always been better able to handle

his mother. She didn't fight with him like she did with her daughter.

As for the financial situation, in spite of what it looked like on

the surface, my husband and I actually were better off than his sister

and her husband. They were trying to get a new business off the

ground and so they weren't terribly liquid. We didn't have that

problem. Since husband and I had no children, we also didn't have

that to suck us dry. (kids are expensive) It wasn't that we couldn't

afford a house and car, we just hadn't gotten around to it yet. (We

since have.)

That's the back story. If my mom knew she may not have gone off on my

SIL like she did. (If she knew she probably would have flown out to

try and buy us a house and car. Aaaagh.) But it wasn't any of her

business how we live our lives. Of course a BP doesn't understand that.

But that's not the end of the story, I haven't gotten to the airport

yet, that's the best part.

When we got back to my SIL's after lunch, my mother and her luggage

was gone. (as I figured she would be) She did leave a note. She said

she'd called a cab and gone to the airport (which I figured she had)

She also said that my SIL had no right to say what she did. (Of

course) What else was there to do? We gathered the bags and my SIL

dropped us at the airport. There we found my mother, at the gate.

She had several drinks in her by that time and was pretty much in the

bag. Oh boy. Mom is bad enough sober. Drunk, she's even worse. She

kept saying to me that the cancer had come back and she was dying,

which I knew wasn't true. (I'd checked with one of her friends, one

who'd know.) I just prayed we'd get through the flight without

incident. No such luck.

After we got on on the plane, (mom had upgraded to first class, like

the queen she thinks she is; my husband, MIL and I were still in

coach.) I heard the flight attendant page someone. My husband said

" oh, no " . I heard the page again. Sure enough, it was for me.

" S***, says I, and pressed the button to call the attendant. I was

needed up in first class. I found mom in her seat, puking into a bag.

The attendant said that mom said she had cancer, and that's why she

was sick. I said, that's not true, she's just drunk off her ass,

that's why she's sick. Well at any rate, the plane couldn't take off

with her in that condition, she'd have to get off the plane. And

she'd have to go to a hospital, and get a doctors ok to fly. And so,

like a dutiful, stupid daughter, I went back to coach and got my

carry-on. Told my husband the sitch, and he sighed, collected his

mother and his carry-on and we all left the plane together. The plane

left without us. Now what? I talked to the gate attendant and she

reiterated that we had to get mom to a hospital. Mom didn't want to

go to a hospital. I had the gate attendant call an ambulance,

figuring she'd have to go with them. Wrong again. EMTs got there and

she refused to go. She had the right to refuse care. So they left.

So, there we were, in Miami International airport, me stupidly trying

to talk sense into my mother, my mother getting increasingly

irrational and hysterical, and my husband trying to calm my mom down

and keep an eye on his own mother, addled by AD. (This is the point

where she accused my husband of " taking me away from her. " )It was not

a pretty picture.

My husband then called his sister and told her to get her butt back to

the airport and get her mother, he couldn't handle both mothers at the

same time. So she did. (And apologized profusely to me. Poor girl,

how could she have any idea my mom was so whacked? And truly, I

didn't think this was her fault.) And then he called his father, who

lived not too far from the airport. This was something I wasn't too

pleased with. So far, my father-in-law hadn't heard of this sitch and

frankly I was embarrassed by this whole thing. But my husband said,

" we need local help here. " (FYI, my husband's parents are divorced)

So his father came to get the rest of us and took us to the closest

hospital where we tried to get my mother admitted. This was quite a

process because mom didn't want to be admitted. She cussed out the

clerks, insulted half of Miami by declaring hatred of all Hispanics,

(this would include my husband and his family, by the way) and

generally made a complete ass of herself. What finally got her

admitted was that she tried to hit me in front of the clerk. Danger

to self or others-involuntary admission. Even after she got a bed and

a chart, she wouldn't quit. She tried to escape by a back door and

the nurses caught her in the street, in a hospital gown, trying to

hitch a ride. To where, I'm not sure. After pumping her full of

Haldol (or Thorazine, I don't remember) she finally calmed down and my

husband and I went to a hotel for the night.

The next morning we went back to the hospital to see what the sitch

was with mom. The doctor said although he wanted to admit her to the

psych ward for observation, she was no longer a danger to herself or

others and he had no legal recourse to keep her. She knew her rights

and was signing herself out. So husband called his dad again and he

took us to the airport. Husband called his sis and she brought her

mom to the airport. We met her there. The next flight wasn't until

that evening so we waited in the airport for 8 hours to fly out. A

very long day. Mom didn't say much thank deities. She was still

pretty woozy from the drugs she'd been given. We got on the plane and

flew home without incident, mom in first class again and the rest of

us in coach. Mom gave us the slip after we got back to Baltimore. We

looked everywhere but she was gone. It turned out she'd gone to a

hotel, and was planning to fly back home to California as soon as

possible. But would I bring her her laptop? It was still at our house.

I couldn't get her laptop to her for 2 days because immediately after

we got home, we had a major snowstorm. All the roads were blocked.

This gave me time to think about everything that had happened. Mom

had just put me and my husband through sheer hell. She stopped a

major airline flight from taking off. She had insulted my husbands

family and in the process, was trying to drive a wedge between me and

my husband. For me, in all of this, that was the unacceptable bottom

line. She was trying to get between me and my husband.

I decided that I just couldn't do this anymore. I couldn't deal with

my mother as she was. If I was going to have a relationship with her,

she would have to get help. If I kept going on as I was, I was going

to wind up in the funny farm. So I wrote my mom a letter, to give her

when I gave her the laptop. In it I stated the conditions that would

have to be met before I would see or talk to her again. Basically, I

said she had to get help, and medication, and that I would have to

talk to her therapist, because I knew my mom would lie to her, charm

her six ways from Sunday, and nothing would get accomplished. And I

said she couldn't drink around me ever again. She simply nodded

curtly and got in the car and I took her to the airport and she

boarded a flight for home.

That was the last time I saw or talked to my mother. I figured she

wouldn't take my advice and she didn't. For the next year all she

pretty much did was try and justify her actions. (This was in

writing, we still write to each other.) Eventually, she apologized

for everything and even sent me a note to give to my SIL apologizing

for her actions. But I knew she wasn't really sorry. She was only

sorry she had to pay the consequences for her actions. It's like the

criminal who's not sorry for the crime, only sorry he got caught, and

expressing remorse might get the sentence reduced. I wasn't falling

for that this time. She had to change and I told her as much. Of

course, I know that trying to change anyone is a futile effort. What

I'm trying to do is get her to help herself. I've since learned in

this group and elsewhere that hoping for a BP to change is pretty much

a dead end. So here I am, in the holding pattern with my mom and

trying to accept the fact that I may never see her again. But the

truth is: I'm happier without her.

And that's the end of the story. Sort of..

.................

if you understand nothing else from this rambling tale,

understand this: When you get married, YOUR HUSBAND IS YOUR FIRST

PRIORITY, NOT YOUR MOTHER. Of course, priorities are flexible and if

other people really need you, your husband can take a back seat

temporarily. Like my husband did when my mom really was sick.

Ideally, he should do this willingly and understandingly. In fact,

when I told my husband my mom had cancer, the first words out of his

mouth were " When are you flying out? " He was fine about it. He came

to visit (with his mom) over Christmas, and was I glad to see him.

And he was glad to see me. He proved it. I won't say how.

Of course, this works the other way too. You should be your husband's

first priority as well. My husband proved this to me as well. Why

did he get off that plane with his mother? It wasn't like he didn't

have enough to handle, with his own mother. And it wasn't because, as

my BP mom said in the airport, he wanted to control her (my mother).

This is something my mother never understood and I only got later.

If my husband was putting his mother first, (as my mother thinks) he

would have said, " Honey, you know I've got my mother here, I can't get

off the plane. " But he got up, got his mother and got off that plane

with me, at terrible inconvenience to himself and some detriment to

his mother. (Being in a confusing situation is bad enough for most of

us. For someone with Alzheimer's it can be positively disastrous.

And it was, for my MIL, as it turned out.) He got off that plane, and

he did it for me. He knew I needed help. He put me first. And that

is as it should be.

While you are contemplating moving back to your mother to " take care

of her " , remember this: If your mother gets you into her clutches, she

will do everything and anything to keep you there. She will also do

any and everything to brainwash you into believing that this is right

and proper. It isn't! Don't be fooled! I still feel guilty about my

mom sometimes. I still sometimes think that maybe I should move back

with her. I still think that maybe it is right to sacrifice myself to

my mother. I have to remind myself that this is hogwash. I have to

remind myself I have nothing to feel guilty about. I did the best I

could for her. My mother is not entitled to have my whole life.

I spent so many years living with a BP that I didn't know what was

" normal " . Being in the " normal " world looked positively weird at

first. I think this is where you are right now. I still have to

touch base with people sometimes (particularly my therapist) to make

sure that I'm not the crazy one. It does get easier. Continue coming

to this group, and read the books " Stop Walking on Eggshells " and

" Understanding the Borderline Mother. " (I'm just finishing up UBM

myself and wow, what insights. I would have totally handled the

mother situation differently had I known about all this.

Again...hindsight...20/20)

I hope you and everyone else hasn't fallen asleep by this very

long tale. I just wanted to share this so you could understand that

1)You have to put your husband first and 2)Trying to please your

mother all the time simply doesn't work. Something has to give. If

you want to continue to have a relationship with your mother you have

to set some boundaries.

Take care of yourself. You have my best wishes and prayers. Everyone

here will be pulling for you. We've all been through it.

[Guest guest]

You weren't kidding - this was a long one, but I read the whole thing and it's

another time I am amazed at what one BP person can do to a family (and a major

airline). Unbelievable. I am married to a prince of guy that sounds like your

husband. My bp nada is never angrier than when she sees me with my husband

getting along. I've been married for 25 years and it's been a dream marriage.

My nada cannot take it. She hates my MIL although she cannot say why. She

calls my husband a momma's boy, although he is the type that would drop anything

to do something for me even it meant not doing something for his mom. The

stories we share here are so complex, but I try to read every one of them

because I always learn something in the process. Thanks for sharing.

Tag

Re: New Person

you just told my story. This is sort of what happened with me

and my BP mother. I think the dynamics are the same. I moved to the

east coast the year before I was married to be with my fiance. We went

back to the west coast for the wedding. And went back east after the

wedding. Mom always assumed I would come home in a year or two,

because my husband's job was temporary. (2 years) She figured he'd do

the time, get a job out west and we'd come back. To be perfectly

honest, that's the way I thought it would go too.

It didn't work out that way. My husband got a permanent job on the

east coast and here we stayed. Mom has never forgiven me. And I don't

think she has forgiven my husband either. In fact, she said my

husband " took my daughter away from me " . Direct quote.. Like I'm some

toy or possession. That really pissed me off. Even more than I was

pissed off at the time.

I've been meaning to tell this story for awhile and maybe nows the

time to do it. It is the reason I went LC/NC with my mom. Hold on,

it's a long one.

..........

Not long after 9/11, my mother was diagnosed with Non-Hodgkin' s

Lymphoma - cancer. I put my life on hold, quit my job and left my

husband for 4 months to go help her through chemo. It was rough

because I knew what my mother was like and more than a few days with

her sets me on edge. I went home at the end of January. I simply

couldn't put off my own life any more. She was through chemo, I saw

her through the first of the radiation and I figured she really didn't

need me any more.

So I went home to my husband and his mother. Yes, my mother-in-law

(MIL) was living with us at the time, something my mother deeply

resented (I found out later.) My MIL could no longer live by herself.

She was in the early/moderate stages of Alzheimer's disease. (AD) My

husband has a sister and my MIL lived with her for a time, but it was

pretty disastrous. My MIL and her daughter didn't really get along,

and MIL hadn't gotten her medication totally straightened out yet.

She was extremely paranoid. (This is one of the effects of AD.

Hallucinating is another. She did that later.) She tried to climb

out the windows at my sister-in-law' s (SIL) house because she didn't

know where she was. At one time, she threatened SILs daughter (her

own granddaughter) because she didn't know who she was. SIL was at

her wits end. So my husband said he'd take her. I didn't exactly

relish the thought of living with my MIL, but I knew that this was the

best solution at the time. We didn't exactly have the space, we were

in a rental and hadn't quite gotten around to buying a house yet. But

we were coping. Husband got her on some new medication and into an

experimental drug program at town, so then she had to stay with

us after that. At least til the study was finished.

So anyway, such was the situation at the end of 2002. Now the real

story begins.

My mom was cancer free by this time. Since my grandmother had died in

2000, I knew my mom was by herself for the holidays. So I invited her

to spend them with us. I felt sorry for her. The day after

Christmas, we were flying to Florida to visit my SIL and her family

for New Years. And here's where I screwed up. I invited my mom to

come with us. Oh, what a mistake. (I'd cleared it with my SIL of

course. She kinda felt sorry for my mom too, at the time)

I figured mom would enjoy a warm winter vacation. So wrong. That

week in Florida was hell. My mom was pissy the entire time and my

husband and I spent most of our time " walking on eggshells " around her

and bending over backwards trying to please her. My SIL didn't see

much of this, because she was spending a lot of time with my MIL.

Something that was completely misinterpreted by my mother. Everything

came to a head on our last day.

On the pretext of thanking my SIL for her hospitality (HA!) my mom

proceeded to insinuate that my SIL was a bad daughter for not having

her mother live with her. She just went on and on, got my niece

involved ( " Don't you want your grandma to live with you? " ), and when

my SIL tried to explain some of the situation and that their finances

were a little tight at the time, mom proceeded to tell her how to

spend her money. I was standing there listening to all this bulls***

coming from mom's mouth and was completely speechless. My SIL later

told me it felt like she was being attacked; I knew how she felt

because mom had often done the same thing to me and that's what it

feels like. It was like watching an accident happen and you could do

nothing to prevent it. And I didn't know what to do. (I certainly

know what to do now, I know a lot more about BPD and border setting

than I did then, but hindsight is 20/20.)

Anyway, the conversation finished and we all went out to the car. (We

were all going to lunch, then coming back, getting the luggage and

going to the airport.) As my SIL was starting up the car, she let my

mom have it. Told her it was none of her business how she spent her

money and that she (my mom) had no business telling her how to run her

life. All of which was true. At this the whole car was speechless.

Then mom spoke up, said maybe she wouldn't go to lunch with us since

we didn't want her. SIL said fine, and let her back in the house.

At that very moment, I realized that mom expected me to go with her

and at the very next moment, I realized what at least part of this

whole scene was about. She was trying to drive a wedge between my

husband and me. She was using my SIL to create a polarizing

situation. Mom on one side, SIL on the other. She of course expected

my husband to take his sister's side. And of course she expected me

to take her side. She was trying to force me to choose between my

husband and her. And I was infuriated. By that time, I'd learned

enough about " normal " people to realize mothers aren't supposed to do

this. But I didn't know enough specifically about BPD, and " queens "

in particular. (mom is a BP queen, you'll find out what that means

soon.) I wasn't sure how to defuse the situation and I was pretty sure

that when we got back to the house, my mom would be gone.

(Another side note for giggles-This happened later: My mom expected me

to take her side, and my husband to take his sister's. She got that

wrong too. I thought SIL had every right to tell my mom off after

what she'd said to her. My husband said his sister needed to learn to

keep her mouth shut. Irony anyone??)

Getting between my husband and me was only part of the equation, and I

knew that. Mom was also upset because it seemed like MIL was getting

all the attention. SIL spent a lot of time with MIL that week, not

because she missed her mom so much, but because she wanted to give us

(me and husband) a break. We were the ones who had to care for her

full time. SIL wanted us to have a vacation (of sorts) and spend time

with MY mom. Being abnormal, mom totally misconstrued this. She saw

it as MIL and her daughter and granddaughter are very close. Why

isn't she with her daughter? Mom also saw that SIL and her husband

had a house of their own with an attached in-law suite, and newer

model cars. My husband was driving a 20 year old car with no AC or

radio, I was driving a 10 year old car, and we were living in a

cramped rental with only 1 full bathroom. Mom had to sleep in the

living room on the sofabed because MIL had the spare room. This is

what mom saw. She saw me and my husband struggling, and my husband's

sister and her family living off the fat of the land, with an in-law

suite. The perfect place for my MIL. But mom didn't know the whole

story, not that it was any of her business.

My MIL wouldn't stay in the in-law by herself, she was terrified to be

alone. When she was with my SIL she usually slept in her

granddaughters room. I already mentioned the paranoia and threatening

her granddaughter. If someone was threatening your child, wouldn't

you be afraid to have her in your home? Even if it was your own

mother? And my SIL and my MIL never, ever got along. My husband was

my MIL's favorite child and he has always been better able to handle

his mother. She didn't fight with him like she did with her daughter..

As for the financial situation, in spite of what it looked like on

the surface, my husband and I actually were better off than his sister

and her husband. They were trying to get a new business off the

ground and so they weren't terribly liquid. We didn't have that

problem. Since husband and I had no children, we also didn't have

that to suck us dry. (kids are expensive) It wasn't that we couldn't

afford a house and car, we just hadn't gotten around to it yet. (We

since have.)

That's the back story. If my mom knew she may not have gone off on my

SIL like she did. (If she knew she probably would have flown out to

try and buy us a house and car. Aaaagh.) But it wasn't any of her

business how we live our lives. Of course a BP doesn't understand that.

But that's not the end of the story, I haven't gotten to the airport

yet, that's the best part.

When we got back to my SIL's after lunch, my mother and her luggage

was gone. (as I figured she would be) She did leave a note. She said

she'd called a cab and gone to the airport (which I figured she had)

She also said that my SIL had no right to say what she did. (Of

course) What else was there to do? We gathered the bags and my SIL

dropped us at the airport. There we found my mother, at the gate.

She had several drinks in her by that time and was pretty much in the

bag. Oh boy. Mom is bad enough sober. Drunk, she's even worse. She

kept saying to me that the cancer had come back and she was dying,

which I knew wasn't true. (I'd checked with one of her friends, one

who'd know.) I just prayed we'd get through the flight without

incident. No such luck.

After we got on on the plane, (mom had upgraded to first class, like

the queen she thinks she is; my husband, MIL and I were still in

coach.) I heard the flight attendant page someone. My husband said

" oh, no " . I heard the page again. Sure enough, it was for me.

" S***, says I, and pressed the button to call the attendant. I was

needed up in first class. I found mom in her seat, puking into a bag.

The attendant said that mom said she had cancer, and that's why she

was sick. I said, that's not true, she's just drunk off her ass,

that's why she's sick. Well at any rate, the plane couldn't take off

with her in that condition, she'd have to get off the plane. And

she'd have to go to a hospital, and get a doctors ok to fly. And so,

like a dutiful, stupid daughter, I went back to coach and got my

carry-on. Told my husband the sitch, and he sighed, collected his

mother and his carry-on and we all left the plane together. The plane

left without us. Now what? I talked to the gate attendant and she

reiterated that we had to get mom to a hospital. Mom didn't want to

go to a hospital. I had the gate attendant call an ambulance,

figuring she'd have to go with them. Wrong again. EMTs got there and

she refused to go. She had the right to refuse care. So they left.

So, there we were, in Miami International airport, me stupidly trying

to talk sense into my mother, my mother getting increasingly

irrational and hysterical, and my husband trying to calm my mom down

and keep an eye on his own mother, addled by AD. (This is the point

where she accused my husband of " taking me away from her. " )It was not

a pretty picture.

My husband then called his sister and told her to get her butt back to

the airport and get her mother, he couldn't handle both mothers at the

same time. So she did. (And apologized profusely to me. Poor girl,

how could she have any idea my mom was so whacked? And truly, I

didn't think this was her fault.) And then he called his father, who

lived not too far from the airport. This was something I wasn't too

pleased with. So far, my father-in-law hadn't heard of this sitch and

frankly I was embarrassed by this whole thing. But my husband said,

" we need local help here. " (FYI, my husband's parents are divorced)

So his father came to get the rest of us and took us to the closest

hospital where we tried to get my mother admitted.. This was quite a

process because mom didn't want to be admitted. She cussed out the

clerks, insulted half of Miami by declaring hatred of all Hispanics,

(this would include my husband and his family, by the way) and

generally made a complete ass of herself. What finally got her

admitted was that she tried to hit me in front of the clerk. Danger

to self or others-involuntary admission. Even after she got a bed and

a chart, she wouldn't quit. She tried to escape by a back door and

the nurses caught her in the street, in a hospital gown, trying to

hitch a ride. To where, I'm not sure. After pumping her full of

Haldol (or Thorazine, I don't remember) she finally calmed down and my

husband and I went to a hotel for the night.

The next morning we went back to the hospital to see what the sitch

was with mom. The doctor said although he wanted to admit her to the

psych ward for observation, she was no longer a danger to herself or

others and he had no legal recourse to keep her. She knew her rights

and was signing herself out. So husband called his dad again and he

took us to the airport. Husband called his sis and she brought her

mom to the airport. We met her there. The next flight wasn't until

that evening so we waited in the airport for 8 hours to fly out. A

very long day. Mom didn't say much thank deities. She was still

pretty woozy from the drugs she'd been given. We got on the plane and

flew home without incident, mom in first class again and the rest of

us in coach. Mom gave us the slip after we got back to Baltimore. We

looked everywhere but she was gone. It turned out she'd gone to a

hotel, and was planning to fly back home to California as soon as

possible. But would I bring her her laptop? It was still at our house.

I couldn't get her laptop to her for 2 days because immediately after

we got home, we had a major snowstorm. All the roads were blocked.

This gave me time to think about everything that had happened. Mom

had just put me and my husband through sheer hell. She stopped a

major airline flight from taking off. She had insulted my husbands

family and in the process, was trying to drive a wedge between me and

my husband. For me, in all of this, that was the unacceptable bottom

line. She was trying to get between me and my husband.

I decided that I just couldn't do this anymore. I couldn't deal with

my mother as she was. If I was going to have a relationship with her,

she would have to get help. If I kept going on as I was, I was going

to wind up in the funny farm. So I wrote my mom a letter, to give her

when I gave her the laptop. In it I stated the conditions that would

have to be met before I would see or talk to her again.. Basically, I

said she had to get help, and medication, and that I would have to

talk to her therapist, because I knew my mom would lie to her, charm

her six ways from Sunday, and nothing would get accomplished. And I

said she couldn't drink around me ever again. She simply nodded

curtly and got in the car and I took her to the airport and she

boarded a flight for home.

That was the last time I saw or talked to my mother. I figured she

wouldn't take my advice and she didn't. For the next year all she

pretty much did was try and justify her actions. (This was in

writing, we still write to each other.) Eventually, she apologized

for everything and even sent me a note to give to my SIL apologizing

for her actions. But I knew she wasn't really sorry. She was only

sorry she had to pay the consequences for her actions. It's like the

criminal who's not sorry for the crime, only sorry he got caught, and

expressing remorse might get the sentence reduced. I wasn't falling

for that this time. She had to change and I told her as much. Of

course, I know that trying to change anyone is a futile effort. What

I'm trying to do is get her to help herself. I've since learned in

this group and elsewhere that hoping for a BP to change is pretty much

a dead end. So here I am, in the holding pattern with my mom and

trying to accept the fact that I may never see her again. But the

truth is: I'm happier without her.

And that's the end of the story. Sort of..

............. ....

if you understand nothing else from this rambling tale,

understand this: When you get married, YOUR HUSBAND IS YOUR FIRST

PRIORITY, NOT YOUR MOTHER. Of course, priorities are flexible and if

other people really need you, your husband can take a back seat

temporarily. Like my husband did when my mom really was sick.

Ideally, he should do this willingly and understandingly. In fact,

when I told my husband my mom had cancer, the first words out of his

mouth were " When are you flying out? " He was fine about it. He came

to visit (with his mom) over Christmas, and was I glad to see him.

And he was glad to see me. He proved it. I won't say how.

Of course, this works the other way too. You should be your husband's

first priority as well. My husband proved this to me as well. Why

did he get off that plane with his mother? It wasn't like he didn't

have enough to handle, with his own mother. And it wasn't because, as

my BP mom said in the airport, he wanted to control her (my mother).

This is something my mother never understood and I only got later.

If my husband was putting his mother first, (as my mother thinks) he

would have said, " Honey, you know I've got my mother here, I can't get

off the plane. " But he got up, got his mother and got off that plane

with me, at terrible inconvenience to himself and some detriment to

his mother. (Being in a confusing situation is bad enough for most of

us. For someone with Alzheimer's it can be positively disastrous.

And it was, for my MIL, as it turned out.) He got off that plane, and

he did it for me. He knew I needed help. He put me first. And that

is as it should be.

While you are contemplating moving back to your mother to " take care

of her " , remember this: If your mother gets you into her clutches, she

will do everything and anything to keep you there. She will also do

any and everything to brainwash you into believing that this is right

and proper. It isn't! Don't be fooled! I still feel guilty about my

mom sometimes. I still sometimes think that maybe I should move back

with her. I still think that maybe it is right to sacrifice myself to

my mother. I have to remind myself that this is hogwash. I have to

remind myself I have nothing to feel guilty about. I did the best I

could for her. My mother is not entitled to have my whole life.

I spent so many years living with a BP that I didn't know what was

" normal " . Being in the " normal " world looked positively weird at

first. I think this is where you are right now. I still have to

touch base with people sometimes (particularly my therapist) to make

sure that I'm not the crazy one. It does get easier. Continue coming

to this group, and read the books " Stop Walking on Eggshells " and

" Understanding the Borderline Mother. " (I'm just finishing up UBM

myself and wow, what insights. I would have totally handled the

mother situation differently had I known about all this.

Again...hindsight. ..20/20)

I hope you and everyone else hasn't fallen asleep by this very

long tale. I just wanted to share this so you could understand that

1)You have to put your husband first and 2)Trying to please your

mother all the time simply doesn't work. Something has to give. If

you want to continue to have a relationship with your mother you have

to set some boundaries.

Take care of yourself. You have my best wishes and prayers.. Everyone

here will be pulling for you. We've all been through it.

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[Guest guest]

Tag-

I can totally relate to your post. I am also lucky to

be married to a wonderful NORMAL man, and my nada

constantly makes little comments to pick him apart. I

finally made a very firm and direct comment back that

I would absolutely not tolerate her attitude nor did I

EVER want to hear another nasty little comment or it

would be the end of our relationship.

And my nada HATES my MIL. And I know exactly why:

because I LOVE my MIL!! My nada cannot stand that I

love my MIL. She is constantly trying to paint her as

some kind of controlling over-involved horrible

person, and it's just not true. My MIL can be somewhat

bossy, but insomuch as that's just her personality,

and anytime I have asked her (politely) to back off a

bit, she is FINE with that- she's just very organized

and has a way of doing things, but recognizes she can

be bossy and wants to let me do things the way I'm

most comfortable. But my NADA tries to turn this into

how awful and controlling my MIL is. She told my whole

extended family about my " awful " MIL before my wedding

and they were terrified for me!! LOL!! I had to set

them straight, and tell them that my MIL is a dream

mom compared to the one I got at birth!

It also makes nada mad that we do so much with my

in-laws. We take family vacations (where everyone gets

along, and no one does the silent treatment and we

actually ENJOY ourselves instead of praying for

" vacation " to be over!). My in-laws are like the

Cleavers, they are so normal and loving. Of course

we'd rather spend time with them! It isn't stressful,

or tense- it's what family is SUPPOSED to be. I look

up to my MIL and FIL so much- they're really helping

me realize how GOOD family can be, and what I want my

daughter to have in terms of parents: they are

excellent role models.

~B

" You weren't kidding - this was a long one, but I read

the whole thing and it's another time I am amazed at

what one BP person can do to a family (and a major

airline). Unbelievable. I am married to a prince of

guy that sounds like your husband. My bp nada is never

angrier than when she sees me with my husband getting

along. I've been married for 25 years and it's been a

dream marriage. My nada cannot take it. She hates my

MIL although she cannot say why. She calls my husband

a momma's boy, although he is the type that would drop

anything to do something for me even it meant not

doing something for his mom. The stories we share here

are so complex, but I try to read every one of them

because I always learn something in the process.

Thanks for sharing.

Tag "

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[Guest guest]

B - you're right - my nada hates my MIL for all the reasons you listed. My nada

comes alive when she talks about how much she hates my MIL - they never see each

other and I never bring her up, but my nada takes so much pleasure in hating

her. My MIL is such a wonderful person, like your's.

Tag

Re: New Person

Tag-

I can totally relate to your post. I am also lucky to

be married to a wonderful NORMAL man, and my nada

constantly makes little comments to pick him apart. I

finally made a very firm and direct comment back that

I would absolutely not tolerate her attitude nor did I

EVER want to hear another nasty little comment or it

would be the end of our relationship.

And my nada HATES my MIL. And I know exactly why:

because I LOVE my MIL!! My nada cannot stand that I

love my MIL. She is constantly trying to paint her as

some kind of controlling over-involved horrible

person, and it's just not true. My MIL can be somewhat

bossy, but insomuch as that's just her personality,

and anytime I have asked her (politely) to back off a

bit, she is FINE with that- she's just very organized

and has a way of doing things, but recognizes she can

be bossy and wants to let me do things the way I'm

most comfortable. But my NADA tries to turn this into

how awful and controlling my MIL is. She told my whole

extended family about my " awful " MIL before my wedding

and they were terrified for me!! LOL!! I had to set

them straight, and tell them that my MIL is a dream

mom compared to the one I got at birth!

It also makes nada mad that we do so much with my

in-laws. We take family vacations (where everyone gets

along, and no one does the silent treatment and we

actually ENJOY ourselves instead of praying for

" vacation " to be over!). My in-laws are like the

Cleavers, they are so normal and loving. Of course

we'd rather spend time with them! It isn't stressful,

or tense- it's what family is SUPPOSED to be. I look

up to my MIL and FIL so much- they're really helping

me realize how GOOD family can be, and what I want my

daughter to have in terms of parents: they are

excellent role models.

~B

" You weren't kidding - this was a long one, but I read

the whole thing and it's another time I am amazed at

what one BP person can do to a family (and a major

airline). Unbelievable. I am married to a prince of

guy that sounds like your husband. My bp nada is never

angrier than when she sees me with my husband getting

along. I've been married for 25 years and it's been a

dream marriage. My nada cannot take it. She hates my

MIL although she cannot say why. She calls my husband

a momma's boy, although he is the type that would drop

anything to do something for me even it meant not

doing something for his mom. The stories we share here

are so complex, but I try to read every one of them

because I always learn something in the process.

Thanks for sharing.

Tag "

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[Guest guest]

Thank you so much for all your advice and the stories you have shared.

I have started seeing a therapist and she is helping me work through

all this craziness. Yes, I do question my own sanity in all this. I

will be continuing with therapy when I do relocate(unfortunately it is

something I am doing, but am not sure of its permanence). I have

already resigned from my job here and am staring new work there soon. I

will keep coming back to read the message boards. You all have been

very kind. Please pray for my family.

Thanks again.