Guest guest Posted May 28, 2012 Report Share Posted May 28, 2012 Hi, one has a thought like" lm an idiot", defuse from it, but you still have the thinking , if not Now, or if it goes from defusion, but that doesnt remove the thought that "one thinks their an idiot" for how long they have that belief....Now would Cbt therapy handy here to "maybe say lm not an idiot" Which might be closer to Your Truth or real Belief,.So isnt it like your telling yourself " No lm ok", more inline with improving your self .And say if you had a more destructive ,untrue thoughts ,wouldnt it be helpful to TRY and change the thinking , rather then defuse.. From: elisawestmore ; To: <ACT_for_the_Public >; Subject: Re: Perspective Sent: Mon, May 28, 2012 9:16:28 AM Hey When I am in the grips of some emotion and need to defuse, I find it helpful to detail to myself all the ways the feeling is expressing itself in my body. Like, if I'm feeling anxious, and I become aware that I am anxious, I stop and breathe and go through where I can feel my anxiety like " ok, my chest feels tight, and my shoulders are tense, and my breathing is shallow " ....and I find that by trying to asses how the anxiety manifests itself, you become more and more aware of it, until eventually you find yourself separated from it in that " curious scientist " way. It sounds like when you realise you are anxious, you then become anxious about being anxious. But you don't need to be, you just need to say to yourself " ok, I am anxious, and this is how it feels " . Dont judge yourself for feeling the anxiety, just be aware of it until you feel you can make a choice about whatever you want to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2012 Report Share Posted May 28, 2012 Well that is logicalIt not very psychological.Why?Because when you think " No, I'm OK " there will be a whisperon the background " " No, you are an idiot " . Try it and listen. You will hear it.The usual mental fightThat is especially true if you think " No, I'm OK " in order not to think " I'm an idiot " because then there is this overarching thought " I'm OK will eliminate I'm an idiot " so now OK and idiot are linkedThat is how the mind worksDefusion does change thinking. Defusion leads to the flexibility to do things and yes think things. Out of that variability some things will work better than others.They will gradually become more dominant ... but not 100%and never inside an subtractive ruleThink flexibly Behave in a values based wayLet the mind followIf you know a thought is destructive and untruewhy aren't you already thinking differently?Really do you think you need a psychologist to have the idea you should say " I'm OK " when you think you are not?You've said that a thousand timesThe evidence for reappraisal meaning " think flexibly " is good. Practice thinking from different perspective; use metaphors; play with it. Defusion will help.The evidence for cognitive restructuring meaning " thinkcorrectly so that you don't think this bad thing " (that is, for challenging thoughts) is so weak it is arguably zero.If you want an academic tome reviewing the evidence, it is attached- S C. Foundation ProfessorDepartment of Psychology /298 University of NevadaReno, NV 89557-0062 " Love isn't everything, it's the only thing " hayes@... or stevenchayes@... Fax: Psych Department: Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need be): Blogs: Psychology Today http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mind Huffington Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phdIf you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my training page: http://contextualpsychology.org/steve_hayesor you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.com If you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ information etc), please first check the vast resources at website of the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS): www.contextualpsychology.org. You have to register on the site to download things, but the cost is up to your own values. If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide ACT discussion or RFT discussions, join the ACT list: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join or the RFT list:http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/joinIf you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., " Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) and want to be part of that conversation go to: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join Hi, one has a thought like " lm an idiot " , defuse from it, but you still have the thinking , if not Now, or if it goes from defusion, but that doesnt remove the thought that " one thinks their an idiot " for how long they have that belief....Now would Cbt therapy handy here to " maybe say lm not an idiot " Which might be closer to Your Truth or real Belief,.So isnt it like your telling yourself " No lm ok " , more inline with improving your self .And say if you had a more destructive ,untrue thoughts ,wouldnt it be helpful to TRY and change the thinking , rather then defuse.. From: elisawestmore ; To: <ACT_for_the_Public >; Subject: Re: Perspective Sent: Mon, May 28, 2012 9:16:28 AM Hey When I am in the grips of some emotion and need to defuse, I find it helpful to detail to myself all the ways the feeling is expressing itself in my body. Like, if I'm feeling anxious, and I become aware that I am anxious, I stop and breathe and go through where I can feel my anxiety like " ok, my chest feels tight, and my shoulders are tense, and my breathing is shallow " ....and I find that by trying to asses how the anxiety manifests itself, you become more and more aware of it, until eventually you find yourself separated from it in that " curious scientist " way. It sounds like when you realise you are anxious, you then become anxious about being anxious. But you don't need to be, you just need to say to yourself " ok, I am anxious, and this is how it feels " . Dont judge yourself for feeling the anxiety, just be aware of it until you feel you can make a choice about whatever you want to do. 1 of 1 File(s) Do we need to challenge thoughts in CBT.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2012 Report Share Posted May 28, 2012 I remember challenging thoughts for days, or weeks, or months even, until I was completely worn out. So it wasn't just me then. Kv > > > ** > > > > > > Hi, one has a thought like " lm an idiot " , defuse from it, but you still > > have the thinking , if not Now, or if it goes from defusion, but that > > doesnt remove the thought that " one thinks their an idiot " for how long > > they have that belief....Now would Cbt therapy handy here to " maybe say lm > > not an idiot " Which might be closer to Your Truth or real Belief,.So isnt > > it like your telling yourself " No lm ok " , more inline with improving your > > self .And say if you had a more destructive* **,**u**n**t**r**u**e** *thought > > *s* ,wouldnt it be helpful to *T**R**Y* and change the thinking , rather > > then defuse.. > > > > ------------------------------ > > * ; > > * To: * <ACT_for_the_Public >; > > * Subject: * Re: Perspective > > * Sent: * Mon, May 28, 2012 9:16:28 AM > > > > > > > > Hey > > > > When I am in the grips of some emotion and need to defuse, I find it > > helpful to detail to myself all the ways the feeling is expressing itself > > in my body. > > > > Like, if I'm feeling anxious, and I become aware that I am anxious, I stop > > and breathe and go through where I can feel my anxiety like " ok, my chest > > feels tight, and my shoulders are tense, and my breathing is > > shallow " ....and I find that by trying to asses how the anxiety manifests > > itself, you become more and more aware of it, until eventually you find > > yourself separated from it in that " curious scientist " way. > > > > It sounds like when you realise you are anxious, you then become anxious > > about being anxious. But you don't need to be, you just need to say to > > yourself " ok, I am anxious, and this is how it feels " . Dont judge yourself > > for feeling the anxiety, just be aware of it until you feel you can make a > > choice about whatever you want to do. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2012 Report Share Posted May 28, 2012 I think a thought has a beginning, registered my memory through our experiences directly or arbitrarily, and memory cannot be deleted.Whether it is true or not, any idiot can answer that. No need to waste time adding another thought to counter it.THrough practice, defusion happens in split second. So, CBT or ACT?Let the idiot decide..TC>> Hi, one has a thought like" lm an idiot", defuse from it, but you still have the thinking , if not Now, or if it goes from defusion, but that doesnt remove the thought that "one thinks their an idiot" for how long they have that belief....Now would Cbt therapy handy here to "maybe say lm not an idiot" Which might be closer to Your Truth or real Belief,.So isnt it like your telling yourself " No lm ok", more inline with improving your self .And say if you had a more destructive ,untrue thoughts ,wouldnt it be helpful to TRY and change the thinking , rather then defuse..> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2012 Report Share Posted May 28, 2012 I agree that challenging thoughts isn't helpful, conventional logic isn't comparable to psycho logic.I am facing the greatest challenge in my life: My mother.We had not communicated for 11 years. So grateful am I towards the pioneers and advocates of ACT that the cognition, emotional and behavioral disorders of mine be so quickly arrested. With that, I am able to face the devil, this time round with fresh or hidden perspectives, squarely.I suffered much because I applied common logic to my evaluation of reality into the relationship with my mom, whom is inflicted with compulsion and other disorders thus unable to love and abuses people around her.ACT taught me to pay attention to what's happening within without getting involved, thus expanded the meanings, belief, intensity of past thoughts, reality and emotions.Thanks to L's video link: Zen And The Brain, I suppose I am allo-centric towards internal mechanism as appose to ego-centric. With that, the pain of facing my mom, albeit still very painful, do no escalate into extreme rage as before. The committed priority of love and compassion towards others precede my reactions to the misery of my ego's predicament.I had challenged and avoided thoughts, emotions and behaviors all my life which almost killed me by suicide and dangerous lifestyle of fast motorcycling, gangsterism, hardcore drugs and lustful sex.Now, I strongly believe that challenging and controlling do not work in the long run, and reality can be hastily modified simply by operating from different parts of our brain.TC> > > > > **> > >> > >> > > Hi, one has a thought like" lm an idiot", defuse from it, but you still> > > have the thinking , if not Now, or if it goes from defusion, but that> > > doesnt remove the thought that "one thinks their an idiot" for how long> > > they have that belief....Now would Cbt therapy handy here to "maybe say lm> > > not an idiot" Which might be closer to Your Truth or real Belief,.So isnt> > > it like your telling yourself " No lm ok", more inline with improving your> > > self .And say if you had a more destructive* **,**u**n**t**r**u**e** *thought> > > *s* ,wouldnt it be helpful to *T**R**Y* and change the thinking , rather> > > then defuse..> > >> > > ------------------------------> > > * From: * elisawestmore squirrel_jube@;> > > * To: * ACT_for_the_Public ;> > > * Subject: * Re: Perspective> > > * Sent: * Mon, May 28, 2012 9:16:28 AM> > >> > >> > >> > > Hey > > >> > > When I am in the grips of some emotion and need to defuse, I find it> > > helpful to detail to myself all the ways the feeling is expressing itself> > > in my body.> > >> > > Like, if I'm feeling anxious, and I become aware that I am anxious, I stop> > > and breathe and go through where I can feel my anxiety like "ok, my chest> > > feels tight, and my shoulders are tense, and my breathing is> > > shallow"....and I find that by trying to asses how the anxiety manifests> > > itself, you become more and more aware of it, until eventually you find> > > yourself separated from it in that "curious scientist" way.> > >> > > It sounds like when you realise you are anxious, you then become anxious> > > about being anxious. But you don't need to be, you just need to say to> > > yourself "ok, I am anxious, and this is how it feels". Dont judge yourself> > > for feeling the anxiety, just be aware of it until you feel you can make a> > > choice about whatever you want to do.> > >> > > > > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2012 Report Share Posted May 30, 2012 Hi ,thanks for reply, makes sense and you would know more on this then l would , was putting it on here for some ideas and any experience people have on this subject .When ocd is in involved ,you will try just about anything.Defusion does work for me and helped me greatly, with distancing from feelings and thoughts, and lm still working with it and need to jiggle with it,more practice,more learning to ride this new bike still, so it becomes more dominant, like you say , think flexibly and reappraise from different perspectives.l m aware of trying not to think something, like pink elephant and thought increases ,becoming more aware from a mindful defused position of what you call mental fights ,from the self observer. And the Link made with the words ,ok and idiot, is fascinating to me, and so involved with ocd where links are made very often . Thanks again, for your in put and learning here ,on top of your book . > > > ** > > > > > > Hi, one has a thought like " lm an idiot " , defuse from it, but you still > > have the thinking , if not Now, or if it goes from defusion, but that > > doesnt remove the thought that " one thinks their an idiot " for how long > > they have that belief....Now would Cbt therapy handy here to " maybe say lm > > not an idiot " Which might be closer to Your Truth or real Belief,.So isnt > > it like your telling yourself " No lm ok " , more inline with improving your > > self .And say if you had a more destructive* **,**u**n**t**r**u**e** *thought > > *s* ,wouldnt it be helpful to *T**R**Y* and change the thinking , rather > > then defuse.. > > > > ------------------------------ > > * ; > > * To: * <ACT_for_the_Public >; > > * Subject: * Re: Perspective > > * Sent: * Mon, May 28, 2012 9:16:28 AM > > > > > > > > Hey > > > > When I am in the grips of some emotion and need to defuse, I find it > > helpful to detail to myself all the ways the feeling is expressing itself > > in my body. > > > > Like, if I'm feeling anxious, and I become aware that I am anxious, I stop > > and breathe and go through where I can feel my anxiety like " ok, my chest > > feels tight, and my shoulders are tense, and my breathing is > > shallow " ....and I find that by trying to asses how the anxiety manifests > > itself, you become more and more aware of it, until eventually you find > > yourself separated from it in that " curious scientist " way. > > > > It sounds like when you realise you are anxious, you then become anxious > > about being anxious. But you don't need to be, you just need to say to > > yourself " ok, I am anxious, and this is how it feels " . Dont judge yourself > > for feeling the anxiety, just be aware of it until you feel you can make a > > choice about whatever you want to do. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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