Values

[Guest guest]

Before I get into values, I would like to say Hello to Jo. I was so moved and

learned from your post. You write quite well. I could also see your a seeker of

knowledge and open-minded. The group is made up of wonderfull people indeed.

I too am struggling with values. I saw on another Act list a brief conversation

about values not being things like money , home or even a job. These are goals

not values. But they did mention about being loving giving and accepting it.

That rang true for me. I value connection and contribution. Is that what I am

suppose to move toward actions that put me in a more connected, contributing

enviroment?

Then of course then you have to know your choices to how you would do that in

your own circumstances.

Lin

[Guest guest]

Values are currently a significant area of study for me, Lin. They are elusive at times, and usually so hard to define with words that I tend to get lost in the mental canvas and forget to glance back at the thing I am painting.

During the happy Father's Day exchanges today, I heard that a friend's son is learning to bow hunt. I thought about getting back into archery, which is an enjoyable sport for me. Then I thought about hunting, and, for just a moment, I imagined an arrow thudding into my dog (don't ask me - this stuff just bubbles up). I realized immediately, without words or conscious thought, that I could not send an arrow into a living creature without desperate need. Maybe not even then. It was an emotional, immediate, intense sureity.

So, there is a value for me: hurting or killing another creature is wrong for me. I guess words can only take us so for toward figuring such things out.D

 

Before I get into values, I would like to say Hello to Jo. I was so moved and learned from your post. You write quite well. I could also see your a seeker of knowledge and open-minded. The group is made up of wonderfull people indeed.

I too am struggling with values. I saw on another Act list a brief conversation about values not being things like money , home or even a job. These are goals not values. But they did mention about being loving giving and accepting it. That rang true for me. I value connection and contribution. Is that what I am suppose to move toward actions that put me in a more connected, contributing enviroment?

Then of course then you have to know your choices to how you would do that in your own circumstances.

Lin

-- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKing@...

[Guest guest]

I so agree with you, Darrell. I could not deliberately kill another living creature (unless my life depended on it, I suppose). When, out of surprise, I killed a large black ant that bit me on the leg while I was reading yesterday, I felt very bad and apologized to it as it cascaded down the toilet bowl into its watery grave. It would have been easy for me to simply take it outside, but I reacted in fear and dismay when it bit me. Yes, I eat meat ... even venison when offered ... does that make me a hypocrite? I am kind to creatures whenever possible and support humane farming efforts while I continue to eat meat that has been more humanely raised and slaughtered than what has become the norm: profit trumps humaneness. I grew up on a farm where the cattle grazed in the meadows and the chickens ranged freely outside in warm weather and were brought into spacious chicken houses when it got cold. That is no longer deemed cost-effective and the animals experience much suffering as they are fattened as quickly as possible in confined spaces with no regard for their quality of life or suffering.A challenge for me is not being judgmental of those who hunt for sport; I simply cannot wrap my brain around that. However, a skilled hunter can kill an animal painlessly - I can tolerate that; those who enjoy seeing them suffer have no understanding or compassion from me, I'm afraid. A complex topic that seems to get me going...Sorry to digress off topic so much.HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 11:44:10 AMSubject: Re: Values

Values are currently a significant area of study for me, Lin. They are elusive at times, and usually so hard to define with words that I tend to get lost in the mental canvas and forget to glance back at the thing I am painting.

During the happy Father's Day exchanges today, I heard that a friend's son is learning to bow hunt. I thought about getting back into archery, which is an enjoyable sport for me. Then I thought about hunting, and, for just a moment, I imagined an arrow thudding into my dog (don't ask me - this stuff just bubbles up). I realized immediately, without words or conscious thought, that I could not send an arrow into a living creature without desperate need. Maybe not even then. It was an emotional, immediate, intense sureity.

So, there is a value for me: hurting or killing another creature is wrong for me. I guess words can only take us so for toward figuring such things out.D

Before I get into values, I would like to say Hello to Jo. I was so moved and learned from your post. You write quite well. I could also see your a seeker of knowledge and open-minded. The group is made up of wonderfull people indeed.

I too am struggling with values. I saw on another Act list a brief conversation about values not being things like money , home or even a job. These are goals not values. But they did mention about being loving giving and accepting it. That rang true for me. I value connection and contribution. Is that what I am suppose to move toward actions that put me in a more connected, contributing enviroment?

Then of course then you have to know your choices to how you would do that in your own circumstances.

Lin

-- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKing@...

[Guest guest]

Helena,I think sometimes the way we symbolically cut reality up into concepts, especially using words, gets in the way of finding values. Your post matched quite a few well-worn struggles of my own!

I also avoid hurting even insects whenever I can. If I do, as with your example, I accept it and move on. According to a strict made-up no-kill concept, I should never kill and, of I do, feel all kinds of angst and regret. In reality, though, I live in this moment and stuff happens. Sometimes I avoid hurting, and sometimes I am part of it. If, consistently, I avoid it despite those inevitable incidents, and that is what it is, good enough for me.

If I make an impossible absolute image and then inevitably fail to live up to it, I have stress and my values are hidden in the confusion. If I just look for my value in each moment and do my best at that moment, life is OK.

I guess the trick is to get good at locating my values in their natural habitat rather than looking to my stories for them...?

DOn Sunday, June 17, 2012, hbbr wrote:

 I so agree with you, Darrell.  I could not deliberately kill another living creature (unless my life depended on it, I suppose).  When, out of surprise, I killed a large black ant that bit me on the leg while I was reading yesterday, I felt very bad and apologized to it as it cascaded down the toilet bowl into its watery grave.  It would have been easy for me to simply take it outside, but I reacted in fear and dismay when it bit me.  Yes, I eat meat ... even venison when offered ... does that make me a hypocrite?  

I am kind to creatures whenever possible and support humane farming efforts while I continue to eat meat that has been more humanely raised and slaughtered than what has become the norm:  profit trumps humaneness.  I grew up on a farm where the cattle grazed in the meadows and the chickens ranged freely outside in warm weather and were brought into spacious chicken houses when it got cold.  That is no longer deemed cost-effective and the animals experience much suffering as they are fattened as quickly as possible in confined spaces with no regard for their quality of life or suffering.

A challenge for me is not being judgmental of those who hunt for sport; I simply cannot wrap my brain around that. However, a skilled hunter can kill an animal painlessly - I can tolerate that; those who enjoy seeing them suffer have no understanding or compassion from me, I'm afraid.  A complex topic that seems to get me going...

Sorry to digress off topic so much.Helena

-- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKing@...

[Guest guest]

If your not your thoughts then who are you? Interesting topic and complex subject,anyone have any veiws on this .

From:

Darrell King ;

To:

ACT_for_the_Public <ACT_for_the_Public >;

Subject:

Re: Values

Sent:

Sun, Jun 17, 2012 4:42:20 PM

Helena,I think sometimes the way we symbolically cut reality up into concepts, especially using words, gets in the way of finding values. Your post matched quite a few well-worn struggles of my own!

I also avoid hurting even insects whenever I can. If I do, as with your example, I accept it and move on. According to a strict made-up no-kill concept, I should never kill and, of I do, feel all kinds of angst and regret. In reality, though, I live in this moment and stuff happens. Sometimes I avoid hurting, and sometimes I am part of it. If, consistently, I avoid it despite those inevitable incidents, and that is what it is, good enough for me.

If I make an impossible absolute image and then inevitably fail to live up to it, I have stress and my values are hidden in the confusion. If I just look for my value in each moment and do my best at that moment, life is OK.

I guess the trick is to get good at locating my values in their natural habitat rather than looking to my stories for them...?

DOn Sunday, June 17, 2012, hbbr wrote:

 I so agree with you, Darrell.  I could not deliberately kill another living creature (unless my life depended on it, I suppose).  When, out of surprise, I killed a large black ant that bit me on the leg while I was reading yesterday, I felt very bad and apologized to it as it cascaded down the toilet bowl into its watery grave.  It would have been easy for me to simply take it outside, but I reacted in fear and dismay when it bit me.  Yes, I eat meat ... even venison when offered ... does that make me a hypocrite?  

I am kind to creatures whenever possible and support humane farming efforts while I continue to eat meat that has been more humanely raised and slaughtered than what has become the norm:  profit trumps humaneness.  I grew up on a farm where the cattle grazed in the meadows and the chickens ranged freely outside in warm weather and were brought into spacious chicken houses when it got cold.  That is no longer deemed cost-effective and the animals experience much suffering as they are fattened as quickly as possible in confined spaces with no regard for their quality of life or suffering.

A challenge for me is not being judgmental of those who hunt for sport; I simply cannot wrap my brain around that. However, a skilled hunter can kill an animal painlessly - I can tolerate that; those who enjoy seeing them suffer have no understanding or compassion from me, I'm afraid.  A complex topic that seems to get me going...

Sorry to digress off topic so much.Helena

-- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKing@...

[Guest guest]

hiA famous philosopher called Immanuel Kant, said I think therefore I am. So that he saw thinking as evidence of our existence. Peace and best wishes from your friend FrancisTo: ACT_for_the_Public ; DarrellGKing@...From: btlot@...Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 10:01:06 -0700Subject: Re: Values

If your not your thoughts then who are you? Interesting topic and complex subject,anyone have any veiws on this .

From:

Darrell King ;

To:

ACT_for_the_Public <ACT_for_the_Public >;

Subject:

Re: Values

Sent:

Sun, Jun 17, 2012 4:42:20 PM

Helena,I think sometimes the way we symbolically cut reality up into concepts, especially using words, gets in the way of finding values. Your post matched quite a few well-worn struggles of my own!

I also avoid hurting even insects whenever I can. If I do, as with your example, I accept it and move on. According to a strict made-up no-kill concept, I should never kill and, of I do, feel all kinds of angst and regret. In reality, though, I live in this moment and stuff happens. Sometimes I avoid hurting, and sometimes I am part of it. If, consistently, I avoid it despite those inevitable incidents, and that is what it is, good enough for me.

If I make an impossible absolute image and then inevitably fail to live up to it, I have stress and my values are hidden in the confusion. If I just look for my value in each moment and do my best at that moment, life is OK.

I guess the trick is to get good at locating my values in their natural habitat rather than looking to my stories for them...?

D

I so agree with you, Darrell. I could not deliberately kill another living creature (unless my life depended on it, I suppose). When, out of surprise, I killed a large black ant that bit me on the leg while I was reading yesterday, I felt very bad and apologized to it as it cascaded down the toilet bowl into its watery grave. It would have been easy for me to simply take it outside, but I reacted in fear and dismay when it bit me. Yes, I eat meat ... even venison when offered ... does that make me a hypocrite?

I am kind to creatures whenever possible and support humane farming efforts while I continue to eat meat that has been more humanely raised and slaughtered than what has become the norm: profit trumps humaneness. I grew up on a farm where the cattle grazed in the meadows and the chickens ranged freely outside in warm weather and were brought into spacious chicken houses when it got cold. That is no longer deemed cost-effective and the animals experience much suffering as they are fattened as quickly as possible in confined spaces with no regard for their quality of life or suffering.

A challenge for me is not being judgmental of those who hunt for sport; I simply cannot wrap my brain around that. However, a skilled hunter can kill an animal painlessly - I can tolerate that; those who enjoy seeing them suffer have no understanding or compassion from me, I'm afraid. A complex topic that seems to get me going...

Sorry to digress off topic so much.Helena

-- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKing@...

[Guest guest]

Darrell, thanks - very helpful to me. I have to remind myself often that "stuff happens" and at times I may be part of the pain I am usually so careful not to inflict on living creatures. Having a rigid value of "never hurting or killing a living creature" can lead to angst and self-recrimination. Doing the best I can in any given moment and seeing that as "good enough" is self-acceptance. Thanks for your input; it helped clarify my values around being kind to animals and how to "live up to" my standards by simply doing my best in the moment, even when not perfect.Turning to the question: "If you are not your thoughts, then who are you?" Sometimes it helps me get clarity by turning the question around: If you are your thoughts, who does that make you? The substance and content of your thoughts? So ... if you think you are a failure or a success or stupid or smart, you are that simply because you think so? You can see the nonsense in that approach. Yet we tend to believe our thoughts about ourselves, especially the negative ones, because they FEEL so true, even though they are not always true (some are). If anything defines us, it is what we do, not what we think. "I think; therefore I am" asserts that we are sentient creatures who exist but it does not define who we are. It is not what we think but what we DO that defines us. Enter values - and why they are so important, because values inform and guide what we do. We do not so much create our thoughts as we observe them. They are created by physiological systems in our bodies and brains that respond to our neurotransmitters, our hormones, our memories, our conditioning, our prior experiences, our genes and our environment, etc. - and the brain's response to danger of any kind is somewhat primitive in how it tries to protect us. It responds to emotional crises as though we are fleeing from a fierce tiger. Do we need that surge of adrenalin to respond to a fear of not belonging? No, but the brain responds to the "danger" signal, not differentiating between fear of failing and fear of being eaten alive. Sorry for posting so much today; I'm in a contemplative state of mind and need to turn it off for awhile. Think I'll go for a walk and get something moving besides my brain cells : )HelenaTo: ACT_for_the_Public ; DarrellGKing@...From: btlot@...Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 10:01:06 -0700Subject: Re: Values

If your not your thoughts then who are you? Interesting topic and complex subject,anyone have any veiws on this .

From:

Darrell King ;

To:

ACT_for_the_Public <ACT_for_the_Public >;

Subject:

Re: Values

Sent:

Sun, Jun 17, 2012 4:42:20 PM

Helena,I think sometimes the way we symbolically cut reality up into concepts, especially using words, gets in the way of finding values. Your post matched quite a few well-worn struggles of my own!

I also avoid hurting even insects whenever I can. If I do, as with your example, I accept it and move on. According to a strict made-up no-kill concept, I should never kill and, of I do, feel all kinds of angst and regret. In reality, though, I live in this moment and stuff happens. Sometimes I avoid hurting, and sometimes I am part of it. If, consistently, I avoid it despite those inevitable incidents, and that is what it is, good enough for me.

If I make an impossible absolute image and then inevitably fail to live up to it, I have stress and my values are hidden in the confusion. If I just look for my value in each moment and do my best at that moment, life is OK.

I guess the trick is to get good at locating my values in their natural habitat rather than looking to my stories for them...?

D

I so agree with you, Darrell. I could not deliberately kill another living creature (unless my life depended on it, I suppose). When, out of surprise, I killed a large black ant that bit me on the leg while I was reading yesterday, I felt very bad and apologized to it as it cascaded down the toilet bowl into its watery grave. It would have been easy for me to simply take it outside, but I reacted in fear and dismay when it bit me. Yes, I eat meat ... even venison when offered ... does that make me a hypocrite?

I am kind to creatures whenever possible and support humane farming efforts while I continue to eat meat that has been more humanely raised and slaughtered than what has become the norm: profit trumps humaneness. I grew up on a farm where the cattle grazed in the meadows and the chickens ranged freely outside in warm weather and were brought into spacious chicken houses when it got cold. That is no longer deemed cost-effective and the animals experience much suffering as they are fattened as quickly as possible in confined spaces with no regard for their quality of life or suffering.

A challenge for me is not being judgmental of those who hunt for sport; I simply cannot wrap my brain around that. However, a skilled hunter can kill an animal painlessly - I can tolerate that; those who enjoy seeing them suffer have no understanding or compassion from me, I'm afraid. A complex topic that seems to get me going...

Sorry to digress off topic so much.Helena

-- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKing@...

[Guest guest]

Well put - behaviors. Definitely.D

 

Hey Helena,

I think you hit the bottom line with this statement, " It is not what we think but what we DO that defines us " particularly when it comes to values. The other day my friend was telling me of a struggle he was having. He said, " ...I go to the fridge at night and start eating all the Mars Bars, I don't know why I do it, I just consume all my calories in one sitting... " My friend rides his bike everyday, goes walking and makes every effort to keep himself healthy, I empathized with his struggle. I really wanted to give him something that would make it easier for him to stay true to his values. Urge surfing came to mind.

We discussed watching his thoughts at every step he took towards the fridge. We discussed the fact that sometimes his mind will say " Bugger it, I'm going to have that mars bar anyway " and at other times he may just want to say no because he took the time to really consider the choice. The conversation went on and I went through the usual ACT speak...ok so your mind is telling you, 'I want, I want...', is that really what you want? " No " he says. So your behaviour is driven by that thought, 'I want' but you don't really want it. I could see the massive divide between what he values and the way he was behaving.

I asked him if he thinks he can get rid of the thought 'I want', he laughed and said, " As if! " I laughed with him and said, " So you can't change the thought then? " , " You're kidding right? " he says. Ok then, I say to him, what about the behaviour then, walking to the fridge, opening it, reaching for the mars bar, opening the wrapper and eating that mars bar. Is it possible to change any of that I ask. He fell silent and there was a pause. Finally he says, " What was that thing you said before about surfing? "

Having this conversation with my friend concreted the differences between thoughts and action for me. Values are definitely not something you think but something that you do.

(Learning more everyday about living, loving and laughing :-)

>

> Darrell, thanks - very helpful to me. I have to remind myself often that " stuff happens " and at times I may be part of the pain I am usually so careful not to inflict on living creatures. Having a rigid value of " never hurting or killing a living creature " can lead to angst and self-recrimination. Doing the best I can in any given moment and seeing that as " good enough " is self-acceptance. Thanks for your input; it helped clarify my values around being kind to animals and how to " live up to " my standards by simply doing my best in the moment, even when not perfect.

>

>

>

> Turning to the question: " If you are not your thoughts, then who are you? " Sometimes it helps me get clarity by turning the question around: If you are your thoughts, who does that make you? The substance and content of your thoughts? So ... if you think you are a failure or a success or stupid or smart, you are that simply because you think so? You can see the nonsense in that approach. Yet we tend to believe our thoughts about ourselves, especially the negative ones, because they FEEL so true, even though they are not always true (some are). If anything defines us, it is what we do, not what we think. " I think; therefore I am " asserts that we are sentient creatures who exist but it does not define who we are. I t is not what we think but what we DO that defines us. Enter values - and why they are so important, because values inform and guide what we do.

>

>

> We do not so much create our thoughts as we observe them. They are created by physiological systems in our bodies and brains that respond to our neurotransmitters, our hormones, our memories, our conditioning, our prior experiences, our genes and our environment, etc. - and the brain's response to danger of any kind is somewhat primitive in how it tries to protect us. It responds to emotional crises as though we are fleeing from a fierce tiger. Do we need that surge of adrenalin to respond to a fear of not belonging? No, but the brain responds to the " danger " signal, not differentiating between fear of failing and fear of being eaten alive.

>

>

>

> Sorry for posting so much today; I'm in a contemplative state of mind and need to turn it off for awhile. Think I'll go for a walk and get something moving besides my brain cells : )

>

>

> Helena >

> ;

> To: ACT_for_the_Public <ACT_for_the_Public >;

> Subject: Re: Values

> Sent: Sun, Jun 17, 2012 4:42:20 PM

>

>

>

>

> Helena,

>

>

> I think sometimes the way we symbolically cut reality up into concepts, especially using words, gets in the way of finding values. Your post matched quite a few well-worn struggles of my own!

>

>

> I also avoid hurting even insects whenever I can. If I do, as with your example, I accept it and move on. According to a strict made-up no-kill concept, I should never kill and, of I do, feel all kinds of angst and regret. In reality, though, I live in this moment and stuff happens. Sometimes I avoid hurting, and sometimes I am part of it. If, consistently, I avoid it despite those inevitable incidents, and that is what it is, good enough for me.

>

>

> If I make an impossible absolute image and then inevitably fail to live up to it, I have stress and my values are hidden in the confusion. If I just look for my value in each moment and do my best at that moment, life is OK.

>

>

> I guess the trick is to get good at locating my values in their natural habitat rather than looking to my stories for them...?

>

>

> D

-- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKing@...