Re: Empathy??

January 8, 2008

In my ramblings I forgot to add my little story.

A few years ago a man I worked withs daughter was hit by a drunk

driver that fail to stop at a red light. 19 years old, graduated 2

weeks before that, one of the top students in her class. She died two

weeks later from head injuries she got because some ass thought

getting drunk and driving would be a good idea.

I felt a little bad for her parents, but mostly for her. A girl whos

life was just getting started was ended by a fool. Am I alone here

having empathy for this girl?

January 8, 2008

I am like you. I feel bad for the girl who died because she was so young and had

her whole

life ahead of her. I feel bad for her parents because their very much loved,

beautiful

daughter was taken away from them.

I do not feel bad for people who willingly take drugs and screw up their lives.

I do not feel

bad for alcoholics and people who smoke when they get scerosis of the liver or

lung and

throat cancer. I do not feel bad for those people who prefer to buy lots of toys

instead of

paying the mortgage and property taxes. I feel that if you do these things you

can expect

for something bad to happen.

All my life my mother has smoked at least two packs of cigarettes a day. She

also took

tons of artifical hormones in the form of birth control pills. ( So she could

have her

menstral cycle scheduled and conveinent for her) She took HRT Hormone

replacement

therapy when she started going thru menopause. She did not like the hot flashes.

I have

never known anyone to die of hot flashes and have always been very sceptical of

fake

hormones. I told my mother of this 25 years ago but she did it anyway. I do not

feel sorry

that she got breast cancer and had to have a mastectomy. She was very sick for a

long

time. It was totally uncalled for because she did things that she should not

have done. She

took fake hormones for 35 years and combined it with smoking. I do not feel bad

for her.

Please understand that the biggest reason I do not feel bad for her is because

she is one of

the meanest people I have ever known.

Kellie

> I felt a little bad for her parents, but mostly for her. A girl whos

> life was just getting started was ended by a fool. Am I alone here

> having empathy for this girl?

>

January 8, 2008

Empathy? EMPATHY?!

Allegedly, the NTs have all of that

and we have absolutely none of that.

(At least, so the NT " helping professionals " tell us and tell each other,

and — so they tell us —

as NTs, they have a monopoly on empathy, so they should know.)

So ... will someone *please*,

PLEASE explain to me

WHY ...

if the NTs have all this wonderful, wonderful " empathy " and we don't,

just why *they* bully *us?

Kate Gladstone

January 8, 2008

So ... will someone *please*,

> PLEASE explain to me

> WHY ...

> if the NTs have all this wonderful, wonderful " empathy " and we don't,

> just why *they* bully *us?

Kate this made my day, thank you. Never even thought of it like that.

January 8, 2008

>>>>>Allegedly, the NTs have all of that

and we have absolutely none of that.

(At least, so the NT " helping professionals " tell us and tell each

other,

and — so they tell us —

as NTs, they have a monopoly on empathy, so they should know.)

So ... will someone *please*,

PLEASE explain to me

WHY ...

if the NTs have all this wonderful, wonderful " empathy " and we don't,

just why *they* bully *us?>>>>>

I think I " feel " differently. I mean they are that way just because its

their wiring just the way we have our wiring.

I always hated the idea that comes around full circle every so often, the

us/them thing. The 'wouldn't it be nice with an autistic island and no NTs

type' thinking.

Being judged so often so much I always subscribed to the mindset that I

better accept all the NT diiferences because i always wanted them to accept

mine.

I wouldn't want a world with just people 'like me.'

No more than I'd want any NT person going around saying'gosh I wish the

world had only NT people in it, how great it'd be like that.

Its hard to be accepting but its better with everyone's differences. It has

to be this way for a reason.

I always think the world has come so far (in general) then i see some

example on tv in the news or something of racism and I say wow we are a

backward world.

Thats where my head is right now which is far away from this actual post

topic.

I'm just thinking its ok for us all to have differences.

we can fill each other in.

Thats why I never understood those match.com things. I mean who would want a

match when opposites are supposed to attract and people are supposed to be

compliments of each other and fill in for another's shortcomings and so

forth.

Sorry for the ramble, Claritin is working on my brain.

kimberly.

> So ... will someone *please*,

> > PLEASE explain to me

> > WHY ...

> > if the NTs have all this wonderful, wonderful " empathy " and we don't,

> > just why *they* bully *us?

>

> Kate this made my day, thank you. Never even thought of it like that.

>

--

" You must do the very thing you think you cannot do-- " Eleanor Roosevelt

January 8, 2008

----- Original Message -----

>

> I do have empathy sometimes, but only when it is out of their

> control. I do not feel sorry for people, nor am I able to put myself

> in their position when THEY did this to themselves. I do not feel

> sorry for someone who ODed on drugs, nor someone who loses their house

> because they decided some stupid item was more important than their

> taxes. I would hope I receive the same in return, don't feel sorry for

> me because I did something stupid.

I agree. I don't feel sorry for people who are in bad situations because of

their own stupidity. If something bad happens to people through no fault of

their own, then yes, I can get quite emotional about it, depending on the

case. Did you see that piece on CNN a couple of months ago about the young

father who's left to rear triplets by himself because his wife died giving

bith to them? I almost cried, I felt so sorry for him.

>

> Now anyone other than me and my mother would not have known without

> asking the 2nd what she was really feeling. Had they asked her she

> would have lied for fear of being looked down on for disliking her

> father.

So one daughter liked him and the other one didn't? Did he play favorites?

D.

January 8, 2008

----- Original Message -----

So ... will someone *please*,

PLEASE explain to me

WHY ...

if the NTs have all this wonderful, wonderful " empathy " and we don't,

just why *they* bully *us?

***Very good question...

D.

January 8, 2008

> So one daughter liked him and the other one didn't? Did he play

favorites?

The youngest wasn't old enough to remeber all the bad things he had

done, broken promises... that kind of thing.

January 8, 2008

Have to be carefull with the news. The media likes to make things

seem worse than they are.

They make it look like crime is getting worse, in truth crime rates

in the US have been going down for some time.

They would have you believe man made global warming, 10 mins of

research on the internet can tell you what facts and truths there are.

I say man made because the earth is warming, but not as fast as they

act like it is, and if we are the cause has not been proven. Fact is

they cant predict weather more than 3 days in advance with any kind of

accuarcy, to say we know what the world will be like in 50 years is a

hand full of scientist tossing numbers out for fun.

I am not sure if you got the point of my post or not. In case you

didn't understand, its the fact we are getting painted as these

uncaring people, they make us sound selfish. I wanted to know if I was

alone with in this or if others also felt the same. It seems I am not

alone and others have empathy as well.

January 8, 2008

----- Original Message -----

> Have to be carefull with the news. The media likes to make things

> seem worse than they are.

Yes, they sensationalize things; now more than ever.

>

> They make it look like crime is getting worse, in truth crime rates

> in the US have been going down for some time.

One day they say it's gone up the next they say it's gone down.

>

> They would have you believe man made global warming, 10 mins of

> research on the internet can tell you what facts and truths there are.

> I say man made because the earth is warming, but not as fast as they

> act like it is, and if we are the cause has not been proven.

I believe it's a natural phenomenon, but we are contributing to it.

Fact is

> they cant predict weather more than 3 days in advance with any kind of

> accuarcy, to say we know what the world will be like in 50 years is a

> hand full of scientist tossing numbers out for fun.

Glaciers are melting at an alarming rate.

>

> I am not sure if you got the point of my post or not. In case you

> didn't understand, its the fact we are getting painted as these

> uncaring people, they make us sound selfish.

Most people are uncaring. As long as their lives aren't affected negatively,

they just go about their lives like nothing's happening.

D.

January 8, 2008

Kate,

I feel really badly for you that you have been bullied by mindblind NTs. I

have gotten both good and bad reactions from them, too. Of course, some NTs

have no clue how ASpies oir other autistoc folk think.

I recently attended a seminar at which it was stated that the average NT is

mindblind until the age of 3.5 ot 4.5, but the average AS is mindblind till

somewhere between 9 and 13. i believe that if we have theory of mind, then we

can empathize-- we just may not do it as often, or realize what we are doing.

Here is the definition, as I learned by experience (I remember the first time

I did it- I was 13):

To empathize, you discern the feelings of another person. Then, you won them

as your own. I learned from my mother that this is fine- it is not cheating or

lying to feel what someone else feels for the moment- it is a great kind of

sharing. (The first time I did it, I thought it was cheating.) Finally, if you

like (not required, but part of the experience), you share that you feel the way

you know the other person does- and he or she then gets that you are

empathizing.

For example,

If I see someone bang his or her knee, I can hold mine, imagine the pain the

other person feels (I can feel this quite acutely if I actually bang my knee!),

and say, " ouch! That has to hurt! " to get it right, actually imagine banging

your own knee- an NT can read this, and it will make sharing a feeling more

complere.

On the other hand, if an NT shares a feeling with me, I often try to

acknowledge my appreciation of that, because it is like a person from a foreign

land sharing a special tradition with me. It is also fun for me to see how NTs

feel a bit the same as I do, at times. It tells me that they care, and are

trying to carry a bit of the weight tha is on my shoulders. Even if they cannot

do it, I appreciate the love that is conveyed, and it helps me feel that I am

accepted, even if not fully understood. I am still learning to recognize all

the times and ways that this happens, though.

One thing I cannot identify with is phoniness. If I see it, I tend to try to

get away as fast as I can. Is anyone else here like that? I know one NT who

feels that way, but many others who do not.

Kate Gladstone wrote:

Empathy? EMPATHY?!

Allegedly, the NTs have all of that

and we have absolutely none of that.

(At least, so the NT " helping professionals " tell us and tell each other,

and — so they tell us —

as NTs, they have a monopoly on empathy, so they should know.)

So ... will someone *please*,

PLEASE explain to me

WHY ...

if the NTs have all this wonderful, wonderful " empathy " and we don't,

just why *they* bully *us?

Kate Gladstone

January 9, 2008

ituation, feelings, and motives.

>

> Similar to pity.

I would throw another word into the mix: compassion. We can maybe

have compassion for someone in a bad situation whether due to their

own actions or not. Everyone makes bad choices somewhere along the

line, sometimes with eyes wide open. But they do it because they

think it will help at some level for their happiness.

In Buddhism the premise is that everyone is the same in this one way:

they want to feel happy and they do not want to suffer. There are

many different ways of seeking happiness and seeking to avoid or

reduce suffering. And some are ways that to other people appear self

defeating.

Compassion isn't about feeling sorry for people. It's more about

wishing it was better for them and if possible helping them (which

isn't always possible)

Genyin

--

" I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!

The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building. "

M. Schultz

January 9, 2008

> n. Fact is

> they cant predict weather more than 3 days in advance with any kind of

> accuarcy, to say we know what the world will be like in 50 years is a

> hand full of scientist tossing numbers out for fun.

>

Funny how they predicted there would be lots more flooding and there

is. I remember the first year of major flooding in the UK and now it

happens at least annually.

Genyin

--

" I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!

The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building. "

M. Schultz

January 9, 2008

----- Original Message -----

One thing I cannot identify with is phoniness. If I see it, I tend to try

to get away as fast as I can. Is anyone else here like that? I know one NT

who feels that way, but many others who do not.

**Oh yes! I hate phoniness with a passion.

D.

January 9, 2008

----- Original Message -----

>

> Compassion isn't about feeling sorry for people. It's more about

> wishing it was better for them and if possible helping them (which

> isn't always possible)

Often just lending a sympathetic ear is all they need.

D.

January 9, 2008

Genyin wrote:

>Compassion isn't about feeling sorry for people. It's more about

>wishing it was better for them and if possible helping them (which

>isn't always possible)

Quakers sometimes say to a person in a difficult situation, " I will

hold you in the light. " That means anything from (depending on the

depth of the person's spiritual practice) " I will be thinking of you "

to " I will be aiming my spiritual power towards helping you be open

to the truth that is within you " (assuming the truth will help

resolve the situation or at least make it understandable/bearable).

Jane

January 9, 2008

>

> Empathy - Identification with and understanding of another's

> situation, feelings, and motives.

>

> Similar to pity.

>

> I am posting this to find out if I am alone on this or not.

>

> I do have empathy sometimes, but only when it is out of their

> control. I do not feel sorry for people, nor am I able to put myself

> in their position when THEY did this to themselves. I do not feel

> sorry for someone who ODed on drugs, nor someone who loses their

> house because they decided some stupid item was more important than

> their taxes. I would hope I receive the same in return, don't feel

> sorry for me because I did something stupid.

>

I don't understand what you mean about the person who lost their

house, but I do feel sorry for someone who's ODed on drugs. I do

things that harm myself (not drugs, but other stuff) and I understand

what it's like. Either they don't know it'll have that effect, don't

see any other choice, or feel they deserve to be harmed. All of those

I have empathy for, especially the second two which are really

painful.

I don't have empathy for people who act like their problems are way

worse than they really are, like a parent who wanted an NT child

saying they'd rather have a child with cancer than autism. I feel far

more empathy for their child hearing that than for them.

> I feel sorry for the people killed by drunk drivers. I feel and

> understand others pains for things like this.

>

> I may not show empathy but I sure as hell do have empathy

> sometimes.

> The idea that I should try and make someone feel better about a bad

> situation they are in to me is foolish. Saying " I know how you feel "

> is stupid to me. I cant know how someone feels unless they say so,

> nor can any other NT that thinks other wise. You can only guess if

> not told. Everyones life experience is different.

>

I often say 'I think I know how you feel', describe what I think

they're feeling, and ask if I'm right. Personally, if someone did

that with me it would really help. What I don't like is someone

saying it's normal to feel that way. Either I feel sad for everyone

else suffering like I do or I feel erased because they don't

understand me.

> People would assume at my fathers funeral that my sisters where

> crying because of the loss of their father. But they would only be

> right on one of them. The other it was anger and frustration at her

> father for being such a terrible man for so much of his life.

>

> Now I felt true and real empathy for them, one because she lost

> someone close to her, the other for the hate she had for him.

>

Personally, I'd have trouble understanding the one who missed him if

I knew he'd been a terrible man. I'd have to work at it. I tend to

expect bad people to be unloveable.

> Now anyone other than me and my mother would not have known without

> asking the 2nd what she was really feeling. Had they asked her she

> would have lied for fear of being looked down on for disliking her

> father. Most people telling her " I know how you feel " would be

> wrong, because they don't, only she really does.

>

> ok rant over.

>

> btw Anyone else get an invite to ASAN? I didnt sign up for it.

>

I have signed up for it. I don't remember if I got an invite but

maybe I did.

Ettina

January 9, 2008

Bullying is not an inherent NT behavior. It is the behavior that

people (possibly especially NTs, but certainly others too) tend to do

in a highly competitive social hierarchy where someone must be at the

bottom. If you read Peltzer's A Brother's Journey it

describes the reasons for bullying pretty well. Peltzer grew

up in a family where his brother was constantly being abused by

his mother, who at the same time was a much better parnt to her other

children. was her second least favorite child, above ,

and to make sure he *stayed* better off than he bullied him and

tried to get him in trouble with their mother. (Then was

removed by social services, who made the colossally stupid decision

of *only* taking and left to take his brother's place

as the designated victim of his mother's abuse.)

Ettina

>

> > So ... will someone *please*,

> > > PLEASE explain to me

> > > WHY ...

> > > if the NTs have all this wonderful, wonderful " empathy " and we

don't,

> > > just why *they* bully *us?

> >

> > Kate this made my day, thank you. Never even thought of it like

that.

> >

>

> --

> " You must do the very thing you think you cannot do-- " Eleanor

Roosevelt

>

January 9, 2008

Re:

> Bullying is not an inherent NT behavior. It is the behavior that

> people (possibly especially NTs, but certainly others too) tend to do

> in a highly competitive social hierarchy where someone must be at the

> bottom. ...

Still, why wouldn't having empathy (which the NTs, including the

avowed bullies, claim they have and we don't) make NTs less likely to

bully?

Even NTs at the top of the heap with no fear of ever approaching the bottom,

NTs who proudly *admit* that they bully us " non-empathetic " folks (and

who have no problem with calling it bullying because they see bullying

as A Very Good Thing: " the HUMAN thing to do, " as one teacher told me)

....

even NTs who have the proud and open support of other NTs in bullying,

as long as they bully only Aspies

(I've had NT classmates whose parents/teachers openly and even

*officially* approved, endorsedm and actually *commanded* bullying of

what one school principal called " that fundamentally and inherently

'wrong' type of child " — meaning what we, today, would call an Aspie —

while taking great care to prevent and publicly disapprove the

bullying of NTs in wheelchairs or NTs with Seeing Eye dogs or NTs with

hearing aids or socially unpopular skin-colors or whatever ... )

.... even *these* NTs claim vast empathy (and claim an NT monopoly on

empathy) while they joyously bully away.

Why?

What makes *us* the perfect victims (even better victims than folks in

wheelchairs or whatever)? What makes *us " so specially useful and

convenient (even more convenient than blind people or deaf people or

people on crutches or what-have-you) to folks who need someone, anyone

to put into that " socially necessary Designated Victim slot " (as one

of my former therapists called it)?

I don't mean that NTs *never* get bullied: I do mean that we get

bullied much more often, much more severely — and with much more

social approval and support for the bullies — than any group of NTs I

can think of.

(Based on past experiences, I feel morally certain that, if I walked

into a room which had some NTs bullying one of their number — say, a

highly " bully-able " blind, homosexual midget NT in a wheelchair — as

soon as I walked into the room, the other NTs would let the previous

victim alone and turn on me instead: a much better victim, obviously

" naturally suited for the purpose of being the ideal victim that

provides the perfect release " as my fifth-grade art-teacher very

carefully explained because she wanted to " help " me to " accept this "

as my " natural place in society " which I needed to fill because it

would do everyone else so much good: I had no right to object to

giving my classmates the perfect opportunity to " express and develop

this aspect of the human personality. " As the art-teacher saw it,

trying to stop others from expressing their " natural and healthy

instincts and drives in this direction " made as little sense (and

suggested as much cruelty in my nature) as forbidding paper and canvas

to a gifted young artist who had a wonderful set of paints and the

will to try them out. How *dared* I object, when my mere objection (to

serving as an object for their use and delight) might thwart their

free expression, their full development, and (of course) their

self-esteem?!?!?!

Kate Gladstone

January 9, 2008

I don't understand what you mean about the person who lost their

house, but I do feel sorry for someone who's ODed on drugs. I do

things that harm myself (not drugs, but other stuff) and I understand

what it's like. Either they don't know it'll have that effect, don't

see any other choice, or feel they deserve to be harmed. All of those

I have empathy for, especially the second two which are really

painful.

I don't have empathy for people who act like their problems are way

worse than they really are, like a parent who wanted an NT child

saying they'd rather have a child with cancer than autism. I feel far

more empathy for their child hearing that than for them.

I have seen people on TV looking for sympathy because they lost their

house because they didn't pay taxes, mind you they didn't lose their

job, just decided not to pay taxes. I guess I kind of feel sorry about

that level of ignorance but thats about it.

Near every drug addict I have met has played the blame game. They

blame everyone else for their problems. Its their dead mother,

government or whatevers problem. Alcholoics are the worst I have

found, they like to blame god.

I have known four drug addicts that died from ODs, they knew what

they where doing, thought they where cool, didn't listen to anyone

that tried to help them and they died for it.

My mother was on heavy doses of different kinds of pain killers for

back trouble, she has had like 4 back surgerys I think, around the

time she started to become a danger to herself and we where going to

have to step in and help she fixed the problem herself. She didn't

blame her pain, god or anything else. She decided she didn't like what

was happening to her and would rather live in pain.

She now takes very little pain medication and deals with pain but she

is happy to not be a pill popper anymore.

Self mutilation is not normally something that is easy to stop, not

normally a habit you pick up by choice. Have you tried to stop

yourself? have you tried to get help from others? I am guessing you

have, most addicts do not seek help, want help or even care. Here in

this country people like to feel sorry for them, say its not their

fault, give them government money the rest of us pay because they have

a problem. Anyone who thinks this is fair imo is a sick person

themselves. I have no problem helping people that have trouble that

they didnt cause. I have no problem helping many of the homeless, many

of them really are ina bad situation that is very very hard to get

out of, of course there are the homeless because they are an addict

people that I dont like but not all of them are that way.

In many other countries they arnt so nice to drug addicts, THEY

created the problem, THEY need to fix it.

January 9, 2008

Kate Gladstone

When you don't do the same in return you are a primary target. My

uncle who is not autistic but is the most passive person I have ever

met got picked on all through school and much of his adult life. The

only times the harassment stopped was when he physicaly attacked them

for it. This didn't happen often so he was picked on a lot.

You can not look at these things with logic, it doesn't work. The

bully types are almost always unhappy with themselves and unless you

can do something to scare them or bring up whatever their problem is

with themselves they will continue.

I don't think this bullying is showing that they don't have empathy,

more that they feel good by making themselves feel superior and don't

care what it takes to get there.

January 9, 2008

> What makes *us* the perfect victims (even better victims than folks in

> wheelchairs or whatever)? What makes *us " so specially useful and

> convenient (even more convenient than blind people or deaf people or

> people on crutches or what-have-you) to folks who need someone, anyone

> to put into that " socially necessary Designated Victim slot " (as one

> of my former therapists called it)?

Partly becasue we appear to them as inadequate rather than just

different. NTs value social skills but it's so inintrisic to them

that they don't even know that. They may perceive the Aspie as

inadequate without wondering even what they are comparing xyr with.

The peson in a wheelchair is obvioiusly compared with the fully

ambualnt person, the short person compared to the tall person. So

they can reason that tall people are not so di8fferent from short

people except on terms of height. ect. But Aspie is different by

virtue of appearing awkward or rude and that doesn't bring an instant

comparison and logical mitigation. They just see awkwardness or

rudeness.

I apologise for spelling errors - will be back on m y laptop tomorrow night.

Genyin

--

" I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!

The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building. "

M. Schultz

January 9, 2008

with themselves they will continue.

>

> I don't think this bullying is showing that they don't have empathy,

> more that they feel good by making themselves feel superior and don't

> care what it takes to get there.

>

I think bullying oftern shows that the bullies have great empathy -

they know what will cause most distress. Empathy doesn't have to be

used in positive ways.

Genyin

--

" I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!

The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building. "

M. Schultz

January 9, 2008