Re: studying how to prevent us

[Guest guest]

that is interesting...

[Guest guest]

" benefit of intensive and early therapy on the mysterious disorder. "

If I read that right they are trying to teach autistics to be NT...

These teach autistics to be normal people need to be slapped. Hiding

what you are is never good. I would be much worse off if I had been

told all my life I was and should be just like everyone else.

I hope I am wrong on my understanding of what they are doing.

[Guest guest]

Genyin,

I can relate to the idea that one should win people by ones gentleness. That

is what jesus Christ said when He was on earth. Still, I do not respect the

idea of shocking another person. I respect those poor little kids, too.

As to just letting people find their own way, that can ge good and bad. It is

written in my faith that " faith comes by hearing... " . The idea is the

standard one in education: If you do not teach, then you cannot assume that

anyone will learn. Of course, one does not have to beat someone over the head

with a book. I am not sure what Ghandi would say about this, but he certainly

spoke words from which people could learn.

Here is an example I am living with today: In my efforts to communicate more

effectively with the NTs in my life, I have asked them to tell me when I amke

social errors, so thatr I can explore them, and learn. My idea is not just to

do whatever anyone says, but to ask questions- to learn the theory of mind that

goes with the situation- so that I can make a more skillful decision nexty time

a similar situation arises. Of course, the final result will be to be a nicer

person to my friends, so that they will feel badly less often (at least where I

am concerned). Here is the paradox: At least in the United States, it is

considered rule to tell someone when he or she made a social error, at least

much of the time. That makes it tough for me! Since I do not interpret

non-verbal cues well, I cannot just get it on my own. I am asking for help, and

truly mean it. Still, it is an error to ask- I think- based on the responses I

am getting.

Are " manners " a hindrance to autistic folk? Is this another paradox?

Kelsang Genyin wrote:

> That sounds interesting- almost like a paradox. We respect their not

respecting us. I konw that there is theory of mind to back this up, but I am not

completely sure what it is yet.

Hmm, not that we respect their view but we respect them. That's my

interpretation anyway. In Buddhism (and Ghandi had some Buddhist

influences) we see people ( and all living beings) as fundamentally

pure but that purity is obscured. One way to respect people is to

help them uncover their own pure nature. Not by lecturing them, but

by encouraging whatever good bits they show us and ignoring or guiding

them round or away from the not so good bits.

>

> I know that when we love someone, we need not agree with them to love them.

Still, that is quite different from respect- or is it?

It depends in what sense you mean " love " . A lot of love is mixed with

what we want from a person, even if it is simply their company. Or to

feel we are useful. That kind of love may involve very little

respect.

But if we love people because we know they are better than they may

appear to be then it isn't so conditional. If we love them because

we're all trying to do our best in the messes we find ourselves in

then that is more pure too. No one really wants to be a bad person.

Curebie types want the best for their kids but they are misguided

about what *is* best. And that can make them do or sanction terrible

things, knowingly or out of ignorance about what is really involved

and how it will impact on the child. Some of them really believe that

electric shocks are better than the kid behaving in autistic ways.

And often it's their suppressed guilt about what they are doing that

makes them turn so nastily on those who outrightly oppose it.

We need to educate, but we need to educate with love not condemnation.

Shouting down curebie types won't help. Smacking them down would be

worse, not that we can anyway.

I don't know exactly how we do it, but it's about our attitude rather

than what we say and do. We can disagree strongly but if we respect

people, love them, somehow it will be different than if we don't.

Genyin

--

" I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!

The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building. "

M. Schultz

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

> I can relate to the idea that one should win people by ones gentleness. That

is what jesus Christ said when He was on earth. Still, I do not respect the

idea of shocking another person. I respect those poor little kids, too.

That's not what I said. I said we respect the person - not

necessarily what they believe in. That means that we can oppose wrong

beliefs but we do so with a loving mind towards the person who has

those destructive beliefs. We separate the person from their

delusions in our own minds. Then we try to change the delusions while

respecting the person.

>

> As to just letting people find their own way, that can ge good and bad. It

is written in my faith that " faith comes by hearing... " . The idea is the

standard one in education: If you do not teach, then you cannot assume that

anyone will learn. Of course, one does not have to beat someone over the head

with a book. I am not sure what Ghandi would say about this, but he certainly

spoke words from which people could learn.

I didn't say we let them find their own way either. Of course we must

educate. But if we try to force our ideas on others that isn't

educating. Even if our ideas are better it is still tyranny. So with

respect for the person we explain where we're coming from, listen to

where they are coming from ... they have to know that we realise they

are doing their best with the information they have and believe or

they will simply feel attacked. There's a different flavour to

someone who respects you trying to help than there is to someone who

is simply repelled by you.

And when they don't respect us back we must still respect them. The

person. Not the view they hold at this time.

>

> Here is an example I am living with today: In my efforts to communicate more

effectively with the NTs in my life, I have asked them to tell me when I amke

social errors, so thatr I can explore them, and learn. My idea is not just to

do whatever anyone says, but to ask questions- to learn the theory of mind that

goes with the situation- so that I can make a more skillful decision nexty time

a similar situation arises. Of course, the final result will be to be a nicer

person to my friends, so that they will feel badly less often (at least where I

am concerned). Here is the paradox: At least in the United States, it is

considered rule to tell someone when he or she made a social error, at least

much of the time. That makes it tough for me! Since I do not interpret

non-verbal cues well, I cannot just get it on my own. I am asking for help, and

truly mean it. Still, it is an error to ask- I think- based on the responses I

am getting.

Yeah, people would rather feel discomfort and have us go through

remorseful agonies when we realise what we did and it's too late to

correct, than assist us at the time. trouble is they are more bound

by social rules than they are by any obligation as it were to help the

socially incompetent. But that is what they have learned is

important, so we can acknowledge that without condemning it.

>

> Are " manners " a hindrance to autistic folk? Is this another paradox?

I guess knowing how and when to use manners is part of our fundamental

disability.

Genyin

--

" I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!

The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building. "

M. Schultz

[Guest guest]

Kelsang,

It appears that I have been too literal. I now get what you were saying.

Thanks! I agree with the way you have put this.

BTW, I was never in favor of actually slapping anyone, either. : ~ )

Kelsang Genyin wrote:

> I can relate to the idea that one should win people by ones gentleness. That

is what jesus Christ said when He was on earth. Still, I do not respect the idea

of shocking another person. I respect those poor little kids, too.

That's not what I said. I said we respect the person - not

necessarily what they believe in. That means that we can oppose wrong

beliefs but we do so with a loving mind towards the person who has

those destructive beliefs. We separate the person from their

delusions in our own minds. Then we try to change the delusions while

respecting the person.

>

> As to just letting people find their own way, that can ge good and bad. It is

written in my faith that " faith comes by hearing... " . The idea is the standard

one in education: If you do not teach, then you cannot assume that anyone will

learn. Of course, one does not have to beat someone over the head with a book. I

am not sure what Ghandi would say about this, but he certainly spoke words from

which people could learn.

I didn't say we let them find their own way either. Of course we must

educate. But if we try to force our ideas on others that isn't

educating. Even if our ideas are better it is still tyranny. So with

respect for the person we explain where we're coming from, listen to

where they are coming from ... they have to know that we realise they

are doing their best with the information they have and believe or

they will simply feel attacked. There's a different flavour to

someone who respects you trying to help than there is to someone who

is simply repelled by you.

And when they don't respect us back we must still respect them. The

person. Not the view they hold at this time.

>

> Here is an example I am living with today: In my efforts to communicate more

effectively with the NTs in my life, I have asked them to tell me when I amke

social errors, so thatr I can explore them, and learn. My idea is not just to do

whatever anyone says, but to ask questions- to learn the theory of mind that

goes with the situation- so that I can make a more skillful decision nexty time

a similar situation arises. Of course, the final result will be to be a nicer

person to my friends, so that they will feel badly less often (at least where I

am concerned). Here is the paradox: At least in the United States, it is

considered rule to tell someone when he or she made a social error, at least

much of the time. That makes it tough for me! Since I do not interpret

non-verbal cues well, I cannot just get it on my own. I am asking for help, and

truly mean it. Still, it is an error to ask- I think- based on the responses I

am getting.

Yeah, people would rather feel discomfort and have us go through

remorseful agonies when we realise what we did and it's too late to

correct, than assist us at the time. trouble is they are more bound

by social rules than they are by any obligation as it were to help the

socially incompetent. But that is what they have learned is

important, so we can acknowledge that without condemning it.

>

> Are " manners " a hindrance to autistic folk? Is this another paradox?

I guess knowing how and when to use manners is part of our fundamental

disability.

Genyin

--

" I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!

The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building. "

M. Schultz

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

> It appears that I have been too literal. I now get what you were saying.

Thanks! I agree with the way you have put this.

>

> BTW, I was never in favor of actually slapping anyone, either. : ~ )

Glad to hear that!

btw, in Tibetan the surname is written first, so please call me Genyin

rather than Kelsang.

Genyin

--

" I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!

The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building. "

M. Schultz

[Guest guest]

Genyin,

I remember that from the other list. Did I slip? Too many typos....sigh....

: ~ )

Kelsang Genyin wrote:

> It appears that I have been too literal. I now get what you were saying.

Thanks! I agree with the way you have put this.

>

> BTW, I was never in favor of actually slapping anyone, either. : ~ )

Glad to hear that!

btw, in Tibetan the surname is written first, so please call me Genyin

rather than Kelsang.

Genyin

--

" I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!

The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building. "

M. Schultz

---------------------------------

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Guest guest]

> Genyin,

>

> I remember that from the other list. Did I slip? Too many typos....sigh....

: ~ )

No worries, I know you know, but it's something I keep on top of as if

one person starts getting it wrong frequently it tends to have a knock

on effect with others.

Genyin

--

" I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!

The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building. "

M. Schultz

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

>

> We respect their not respecting us. I konw that there is theory of mind

> to back this up, but I am not completely sure what it is yet.

>

> I know that when we love someone, we need not agree with them to love

> them. Still, that is quite different from respect- or is it?

Agree to disagree.

D.

[Guest guest]

There is a big problem with this entire discussion. We can not fight

and win battles using autistic ideas. Common sense and logic get you

no where with the masses. People have sense, they have logic, but it

groups these traits vanish.

The answer that is so simple to us is NOT easy for groups of NTs to

understand.

Fear and violence gets stuff done, I know this makes no sense, its

really not needed if people would just listen to each other but they

don't. Want proof? Look at our political elections, money and lies

wins, truth and doing whats right does not. There have been studies

that have shown that people remember lies as truth better than they do

the truth.

I was not picked on in school. I was well liked. Looking back I was

the biggest ass in my class. I treated people like dirt if they

crossed me for any reason. I made jokes out of everything. I also love

martial arts, contact sports and was good at both. This taught kids in

my class that although I was small and odd I was not to be messed

with, if my quicker wit didn't get them my anger would. Lucky for me I

talked my way out of all but one fight.

People think the wrong type of people are cool. They envy greed,

violence and being in the " in crowd " .

We as someone else stated here do not stand out as well as other

groups do, you wont mistake a person with downs for anything else, nor

an Asian, black or women. These groups all have physical traits that

scream I am " this " . For the most part we don't.

I am not saying go out and be an ass, or beat people up. Violence is

often the answer no matter what anyone says, but its a fools answer

and one I am not willing to accept.

If you think any of these minoirty groups dont still have problems

even after all this time you are looking in the wrong place. They

still have issues with unfair treatment. These people are all in much

larger groups than us, and they have those wonderful physical traits.

In this NT world we live in size of your group matters, these are

voters and getting them on your side is good. When your as small of a

group as we are, and near impossible for the average person to spot

you get put on the usefull voter to have but not required list.

What we need to do to fix our problems is make them envy us. We need

more parents who say my child is autistic and I wouldn't have them any

other way. We need more autistics to do NT like things, show off your

high income if you have it, flaunt your ability to remember

everything, do all the stupid flashy things they do. Autism is still

viewed as bad and until this changes nothing else will. We need people

to wish they where like us. Many of the things listed here we dont

care about, we only care what we think, we buy stuff because we like

it not because someone else does. Even though I believe this is what

needs to be done I still cant get past the fact it is stupid beyond

all belief.

We also need a way to make ourselves known by look, we need people to

be able to glance at us and say he is autistic, but before this would

be of any use we need the above to happen.

And by the way I wouldnt slap the people trying to teach autistics to

be NT either. Hit someone for a handicap is not right, even if

ignorance is curable.

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>People think the wrong type of people are cool. They envy greed,

>violence and being in the " in crowd " .

Whenever I hear about some corporate bigwig getting double-digit

millions (e.g., 45 million) dollars a year, I wonder why everyone

doesn't rise up and say, " That is so ugly! "

>What we need to do to fix our problems is make them envy us. We need

>more parents who say my child is autistic and I wouldn't have them any

>other way. We need more autistics to do NT like things, show off your

>high income if you have it, flaunt your ability to remember

>everything, do all the stupid flashy things they do.

I disagree. All that does is privilege *some* autistics, leaving the

rest of us stuck in a " these are the bad/useless autistics " category.

Jane

[Guest guest]

> Whenever I hear about some corporate bigwig getting double-digit

> millions (e.g., 45 million) dollars a year, I wonder why everyone

> doesn't rise up and say, " That is so ugly! "

What I want to know is why people that have that kind of income keep

working. for 3million I could live the rest of my life, with ease, in

my perfect location and life style. Thats a big over avg lifetime

earnings In the U.S.A. but if I could do that in 1-2 years oh my god I

would quit my job without thinking twice.

> >What we need to do to fix our problems is make them envy us. We

need more parents who say my child is autistic and I wouldn't have

them any other way. We need more autistics to do NT like things, show

off your high income if you have it, flaunt your ability to remember

everything, do all the stupid flashy things they do.

I disagree. All that does is privilege *some* autistics, leaving the

rest of us stuck in a " these are the bad/useless autistics " category.

Jane

Doesn't really matter if you disagree, they will never ever go for

it. If they ever took 5secs to figure out so many of us have the power

to do as much as we do, even more so if we got them out of our way

they would lose their fricken minds.

By the age of 22 I was making 45k a year, in an area where living

exspense is about 1/4 of that. Basicly I could pay all my bills with 1

weeks work and leave 3 weeks worth free to do whatever I wanted. I am

now unemployed for almost a year at 24, and this is because they

couldn't leave me the hell alone, they tried to force me to play their

social games, when I didn't I was fired, and no this is no joke.

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

>

> What I want to know is why people that have that kind of income keep

> working. for 3million I could live the rest of my life, with ease, in

> my perfect location and life style. Thats a big over avg lifetime

> earnings In the U.S.A. but if I could do that in 1-2 years oh my god I

> would quit my job without thinking twice.

So would I, but most people seem to always want more, more, more. They're

never satisfied. It's like they have this big black hole inside of them that

can never be filled.

> By the age of 22 I was making 45k a year, in an area where living

> exspense is about 1/4 of that. Basicly I could pay all my bills with 1

> weeks work and leave 3 weeks worth free to do whatever I wanted. I am

> now unemployed for almost a year at 24, and this is because they

> couldn't leave me the hell alone, they tried to force me to play their

> social games, when I didn't I was fired, and no this is no joke.

Maybe you should've sued them for wrongful dismissal. What happened, if you

don't mind my asking?

D.

[Guest guest]

Maybe you should've sued them for wrongful dismissal. What happened,

if you don't mind my asking?

The company was in a state of rebuilding after being sold from major

losses when I started. I was cut off from the main branch so I only

had to deal with a few people, around 50 total. Because most people in

my position from the other parts of the company where rude and treated

other position types(mechanics, janitors, building mantiance) like

idiots and I didnt I was very well liked. All these people learned

they could ask me questions and I would do my best to help them fix

the problem. Others would go as far as to act like they didnt even

hear anyone talking to them.

I was liked even more for the fact I could do in less time more then

these other rude people could.

My bosses, 3 really all judged you by your skill, not are ability to

socialize. So I was praised, they loved the fact I could do everything

these 20+ year vets could and then some.

Then a few months in, about 6, I was promoted and they hired 3 people

for me to train and supervise. The company had grown a bit already at

this point so work load was getting to much for me alone.

Not entirely found of being put there but the pay was good, the guys

under me did their best to learn and listen even though I was much

younger than any of them. But they did make mistakes, careless ones

that I didn't, and of course whatever they do wrong comes to me first.

Not a fan of that but wasnt to bad until...

The other branch has a supvisor change, This guy was, to be nice an

ass. He would yell (like fricken scream) at his employs in front of

others, treated people like children. He was not quilified for the

job, refused to be wrong about anything, I could go on all night about

this guy.

Now with the company growth I now had to deal with the other branch,

about 400 extra people on top of the now 130+ people in my area. The

way things worked around there changed so it couldnt be helped.

This guy did not like me, I made him look bad, repeatedly. My boss,

top dog in my branch, and very respected in the entire company decided

it would be fun to point out where I am making him look bad, the

complements where nice but this created big problems. This guy started

to complain about every little thing he could, constant bitching about

me. Like as much as 3 times a day for things that had been done that

way for years before I got there. After awhile my boss got frustrated

with the constant complaints and starting kissing up to try and shut

him up.

By this point the guys under me are very well trained and can do

their job without me. I started getting pulled out of important jobs,

and guys under me being a signed them. Things I used to be told before

anyone else, if anyone else even knew about I no longer was told, At

this point I saw it coming.

In about 6months at the end I went from my bosses cure all for every

problem in my field and a few that where not, from being the best he

had ever seen in my position(and he had been doing this for a long

time) to getting bitched at constantly by him.

Its odd going from the guy they call in every time the company is in

trouble and needs a fix asap, when they have a choice of 20+ people in

my position all of which have a lot more experience, when the company

could lose millions in a few hours if the problem isn't solved now. To

being the guy no one talks to, is never asked to do anything, to be

the last to know about anything important.

In the end I was over stressed, the job as a no body was stressful,

physical and mental. Mistakes in my area could mean deaths or millions

lost or both. So not much room for error. I had 3 people under me to

watch and keep tabs on. never anywhere near each other, and to keep

watch on stock to make sure we had everything we needed. Deal with QC

people, along with dealing with 500+ people total every day.

I started having acid problems and alergys got worse, MAJOR family

crisis, missed some work and they let me go. Lucky for them I was

still a temp..... I hate temp services.

I got another job a few months later, it lasted 5 months, I couldnt

take it anymore. This place was hell. Never seen any factory run so

poor. Everything in this place was about social skills. People would

never do their jobs, constant gossiping everywhere. The worst part was

all three of the top bosses where buddies. Boss A was college buddies

with Boss B, he was also room mates with Boss As husband in college,

Boss As husband was promoted to supervisor with no experiece with ANY

of the job requirments, never in managment, nothing. This dude was put

in control of the most important area in the building. This area was

failing because of him but they didnt get it. They asked me for help

fixing the problems, figure out what the problem is and help us with

ideas on how to fix it. How do you explain that 70% of a companies

workforce and the bosses all need to be fired to fix the problem? I

dont know because I dont understand these games people play.

I walked out one day, went home and never went back, I have been

broke since, my wife has had to support us with what little she can

make, we live in my mothers house and we havnt been this happy since

before I got that first job.... sad really, these companies have such

great potental and blow it all away not watching what middle managment

is doing to them.

Get all that?

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

>

>

> Get all that?

I got it loud and clear. I know all about companies and stores being managed

poorly. I just left a place that was hell to work in. I hope you'll find

something soon that fits your needs. Good luck!

D.

[Guest guest]

I think we should try to change the whole system instead of just

clawing up a bit higher on the social hierarchy. That way, we won't

push others down as we go up.

I think the reason other minorities still have problems is that our

society still accepts a lot of underlying ideas that caused their

problems in the first place, because they didn't really challenge

those ideas.

Here's a blog entry I made about this:

http://abnormaldiversity.blogspot.com/2006/07/making-up-for-

difference.html

Ettina

>

> There is a big problem with this entire discussion. We can not

fight

> and win battles using autistic ideas. Common sense and logic get you

> no where with the masses. People have sense, they have logic, but it

> groups these traits vanish.

>

> The answer that is so simple to us is NOT easy for groups of NTs to

> understand.

>

> Fear and violence gets stuff done, I know this makes no sense, its

> really not needed if people would just listen to each other but they

> don't. Want proof? Look at our political elections, money and lies

> wins, truth and doing whats right does not. There have been studies

> that have shown that people remember lies as truth better than they

do

> the truth.

>

> I was not picked on in school. I was well liked. Looking back I was

> the biggest ass in my class. I treated people like dirt if they

> crossed me for any reason. I made jokes out of everything. I also

love

> martial arts, contact sports and was good at both. This taught kids

in

> my class that although I was small and odd I was not to be messed

> with, if my quicker wit didn't get them my anger would. Lucky for

me I

> talked my way out of all but one fight.

>

> People think the wrong type of people are cool. They envy greed,

> violence and being in the " in crowd " .

>

> We as someone else stated here do not stand out as well as other

> groups do, you wont mistake a person with downs for anything else,

nor

> an Asian, black or women. These groups all have physical traits that

> scream I am " this " . For the most part we don't.

>

> I am not saying go out and be an ass, or beat people up. Violence

is

> often the answer no matter what anyone says, but its a fools answer

> and one I am not willing to accept.

>

> If you think any of these minoirty groups dont still have problems

> even after all this time you are looking in the wrong place. They

> still have issues with unfair treatment. These people are all in

much

> larger groups than us, and they have those wonderful physical

traits.

> In this NT world we live in size of your group matters, these are

> voters and getting them on your side is good. When your as small of

a

> group as we are, and near impossible for the average person to spot

> you get put on the usefull voter to have but not required list.

>

> What we need to do to fix our problems is make them envy us. We

need

> more parents who say my child is autistic and I wouldn't have them

any

> other way. We need more autistics to do NT like things, show off

your

> high income if you have it, flaunt your ability to remember

> everything, do all the stupid flashy things they do. Autism is still

> viewed as bad and until this changes nothing else will. We need

people

> to wish they where like us. Many of the things listed here we dont

> care about, we only care what we think, we buy stuff because we like

> it not because someone else does. Even though I believe this is what

> needs to be done I still cant get past the fact it is stupid beyond

> all belief.

>

> We also need a way to make ourselves known by look, we need people

to

> be able to glance at us and say he is autistic, but before this

would

> be of any use we need the above to happen.

>

> And by the way I wouldnt slap the people trying to teach autistics

to

> be NT either. Hit someone for a handicap is not right, even if

> ignorance is curable.

>