Re: Paramedic liability in death may face trial

[Guest guest]

Need to also think twice about the dangers of entering someone's home

without permission. Getting the police involved would be good, but it's not

always easy to get them to a scene soon enough.

Maxine

[texasems-L] Paramedic liability in death may face trial

>

>

> > Did anyone else see this??

> >

> > Tim

> >

> > =================

> >

> >

http://chicagotribune.com/news/metro/chicago/article/0,2669,ART-46274,FF.htm

l

> >

> > Paramedic liability in death may face trial

> >

> > Maurice Possley

> > Tribune Staff

> > Writer

> > August 11, 2000

> >

> >

> > In a ruling that could have a far-reaching impact on the delivery of

> > emergency services, the Illinois Supreme Court ruled Thursday that

paramedics

> > can be held liable for damages if they fail to locate a patient who

calls for

> > help.

> >

[Guest guest]

We have (as I am sure all or most of you do) some places in our service area

with extensive historys of violence--attacking law officers with knives,

repeated prison sentences, family members who have committed acts of violence

against each other, bank break-ins, etc. Then you add drug and alcohol abuse

to the picture and these people don't think half straight on a good day! In

the middle of the day with them smiling and holding the door for me, I won't

enter their house without a police officer present--I sure won't open a

closed door and go in unannounced!

Maxine

In a message dated 8/25/00 3:44:21 PM Central Daylight Time,

paramedicwright@... writes:

> This could set a very lethal precedence. I've been in too many situations

> where forcing entry could have got me and my partner killed or seriously

> injured. Still other times forcing entry would have needlessly caused

> damage because in fact it was a false alarm.

>

> Unless medics are going to be armed and properly trained/authorized to

> utilize force with weapons to defend ourselves, than we all have to be even

> more careful if we have to force entry unarmed.

[Guest guest]

This could set a very lethal precedence. I've been in too many situations

where forcing entry could have got me and my partner killed or seriously

injured. Still other times forcing entry would have needlessly caused

damage because in fact it was a false alarm.

Unless medics are going to be armed and properly trained/authorized to

utilize force with weapons to defend ourselves, than we all have to be even

more careful if we have to force entry unarmed.

Tony

[texasems-L] Paramedic liability in death may face trial

> Did anyone else see this??

>

> Tim

>

> =================

>

>

http://chicagotribune.com/news/metro/chicago/article/0,2669,ART-46274,FF.htm

l

>

> Paramedic liability in death may face trial

>

> Maurice Possley

> Tribune Staff

> Writer

> August 11, 2000

>

>

> In a ruling that could have a far-reaching impact on the delivery of

> emergency services, the Illinois Supreme Court ruled Thursday that

paramedics

> can be held liable for damages if they fail to locate a patient who calls

for

> help.

>

> The court revived a lawsuit against the City of Chicago and two paramedics

> that alleges a woman stricken by an asthma attack called 911 but died

after

> the paramedics sent to her apartment left without treating her. The suit

> claims her front door was unlocked and that paramedics failed to even try

> and open it.

>

> The lawsuit, brought on behalf of the estate of Kazmierowski, had

> been dismissed by a Cook County Circuit Court judge, and the dismissal was

> upheld by the Illinois Appellate Court. In both instances, the courts held

> that the long-standing state immunity provisions granted public agencies

> protected the paramedics from liability.

>

> The Supreme Court, by a vote of 4-3, upheld the immunity in most

> circumstances, but ordered that a trial be held to determine whether the

two

> Chicago Fire Department paramedics engaged in " willful and wanton

> misconduct " by failing to try to open the door. Such conduct, defined as

> intentional or committed under circumstances that exhibit a reckless

> disregard for the safety of others, isn't protected by immunity, the court

> said.

>

> Lawyers for the city had argued that the misconduct exception to the

> immunity provision should not apply in a situation where emergency

personnel

> had not yet located the patient.

>

> Justice Ben , writing for the majority, noted that emergency

services

> have been interpreted to include transportation of patients and declared,

> " If transporting a patient to a hospital is an aspect of life support

> services, then so too should locating a patient in the first place. "

>

> " This is a very important decision because it extends the responsibilities

> and accountabilities of emergency services personnel to locating the

> critically ill patient before they ever physically come in contact with

the

> person, " said A. " Pat " Boyle, attorney for Kazmierowski's estate.

>

> " Can you imagine a more terrifying situation than making a 911 call,

waiting

> and hearing help just feet away and then the last sounds you hear are the

> retreating steps of the help you so urgently needed? " Boyle said. " This

> means that it is no excuse to say that the door is locked, that we can't

get

> through the door or that the telephone was not working when we called

back. "

>

> Fire Department officials declined to comment. A department spokesman said

> previously that the decision to enter a residence is a " judgment call "

made

> by paramedics on the scene and that they were not required to turn the

knob.

>

> Thursday's decision suggests that failing to turn the knob could be

> interpreted as misconduct that is not immune from monetary damages.

>

> Hoyle, spokeswoman for the city's Legal Department, said, " We do

> believe that if we do have to try this case, the facts will show that the

> paramedics did not act willfully and wantonly.

>

> " The paramedics in question spent at least 15 minutes trying to determine

if

> anyone was in the apartment and left after concluding that no one was in

> there. They thought no one was in there. "

>

> Hoyle said city lawyers were considering whether to file a request for

> reconsideration by the Supreme Court because of the " potentially alarming "

> consequences for all municipalities that provide emergency services.

>

> " This might put a burden on paramedics to act like law enforcement-to

break

> down the door or enter to avoid the potential of a situation such as

this, "

> Hoyle said. " We get thousands of calls a year where no one is there when

> paramedics arrive, either because the person has already gone on their own

> to a hospital or because it is a false alarm. "

>

> According to court records and interviews, Kazmierowski, 28, was alone in

> her apartment when she suffered an asthma attack Oct. 24, 1995. She dialed

> 911 and, struggling to breathe, said, " I need help. I'm having an asthma

> attack. ... I think I'm going to die. "

>

> Paramedics were dispatched to the third-floor apartment at 4520 N.

Greenview

> Ave. and knocked on the door. Inside, a dog barked, but no one came to the

> door.

>

> The paramedics called their dispatcher, who had failed to keep

Kazmierowski

> on the line, as required by department regulations.

>

> The dispatcher telephoned the apartment, but the call went into an

answering

> machine. The paramedics then went through a neighbor's apartment to get to

> the rear and knock on Kazmierowski's back door, where there was no answer.

>

> After 15 minutes, the paramedics left.

>

> Later that day, Kazmierowski's boyfriend, Dave Hawkins, came home from

work

> and found her dead in their bedroom. Hawkins said he found the door

> unlocked-just as he said he had left it when he departed for work that

> morning.

>

> Lawyers for the city have said previously that the paramedics say they

> cannot remember if they tried to open the door.

>

> Kazmierowski's father, , of Cheboygan, Mich., said in a telephone

> interview, " I think the Supreme Court certainly interpreted the law

properly

> and in the simple English meaning of the words.

>

> " This is a case that could make the city of Chicago a whole lot safer. I

> don't think the citizens of Chicago realize how far out there they are

> dangling when they call 911. In effect, if you call 911, you better call

> somebody else too. "

>

> Hawkins added, " This confirms what I've been saying all along-that 911 and

> paramedics must be accountable. There is no excuse for almost or halfway

> succeeding at this. 's death was so untimely and tragic. I miss her

> terribly, but today I was thinking that it is like her to help people,

even

> after her death. "

>

> The decision turned on the court's interpretation of the state's Emergency

> Medical Services Systems Act, which sets out the immunity provisions for

> paramedics.

>

> Justice Heiple wrote a dissent that took issue with the majority's

> decision that locating a patient is part of emergency services.

>

> " There is absolutely nothing in the statute to support such a reading, "

> Heiple wrote. " Defendants never even began to provide life support

services

> because they did not even see the patient. "

>

> The majority opinion noted that the lawsuit alleged that paramedics are

> trained to " Try Before You Pry, " meaning that before breaking down a door,

> they should try to turn the knob.

>

> " Locating a person in need of emergency medical treatment is the first

step

> in providing life support services. Not even that first step was taken

> here, " the court said.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Another good point.

Eddie

[texasems-L] Paramedic liability in death may face trial

> >

> >

> > > Did anyone else see this??

> > >

> > > Tim

> > >

> > > =================

> > >

> > >

> http://chicagotribune.com/news/metro/chicago/article/0,2669,ART-46274,FF.htm

> l

> > >

> > > Paramedic liability in death may face trial

> > >

> > > Maurice Possley

> > > Tribune Staff

> > > Writer

> > > August 11, 2000

> > >

> > >

> > > In a ruling that could have a far-reaching impact on the delivery of

> > > emergency services, the Illinois Supreme Court ruled Thursday that

> paramedics

> > > can be held liable for damages if they fail to locate a patient who

> calls for

> > > help.

> > >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It is best to leave forced entry to those walking the thin blue line. More

than likely they have the experience in doing so and if it gets bad for

whatever reason, you have an armed officer to cover your butt.

I have had the opportunity in forcing a door. Had it not worked out the way

it did the lady would have died. It was one of those at the right place at

the right time situations and in the end all was ok minus a busted up door

frame.

Forcing a door and not knowing what lies on the other side, is a very bad

thing. You might be walking into a crime scene with the bad guy still

there. The possibilities are unlimited, as to what you may find. I would

take the safest route and let the uniforms (and the firearm) handle the HOO

AHH stuff.

Just my thougts.

- Re: [texasems-L] Paramedic liability in death may face trial

This could set a very lethal precedence. I've been in too many situations

where forcing entry could have got me and my partner killed or seriously

injured. Still other times forcing entry would have needlessly caused

damage because in fact it was a false alarm.

Unless medics are going to be armed and properly trained/authorized to

utilize force with weapons to defend ourselves, than we all have to be even

more careful if we have to force entry unarmed.

Tony

[texasems-L] Paramedic liability in death may face trial

> Did anyone else see this??

>

> Tim

>

> =================

>

>

http://chicagotribune.com/news/metro/chicago/article/0,2669,ART-46274,FF.htm

l

>

> Paramedic liability in death may face trial

>

> Maurice Possley

> Tribune Staff

> Writer

> August 11, 2000

>

>

> In a ruling that could have a far-reaching impact on the delivery of

> emergency services, the Illinois Supreme Court ruled Thursday that

paramedics

> can be held liable for damages if they fail to locate a patient who calls

for

> help.

>

> The court revived a lawsuit against the City of Chicago and two paramedics

> that alleges a woman stricken by an asthma attack called 911 but died

after

> the paramedics sent to her apartment left without treating her. The suit

> claims her front door was unlocked and that paramedics failed to even try

> and open it.

>

> The lawsuit, brought on behalf of the estate of Kazmierowski, had

> been dismissed by a Cook County Circuit Court judge, and the dismissal was

> upheld by the Illinois Appellate Court. In both instances, the courts held

> that the long-standing state immunity provisions granted public agencies

> protected the paramedics from liability.

>

> The Supreme Court, by a vote of 4-3, upheld the immunity in most

> circumstances, but ordered that a trial be held to determine whether the

two

> Chicago Fire Department paramedics engaged in " willful and wanton

> misconduct " by failing to try to open the door. Such conduct, defined as

> intentional or committed under circumstances that exhibit a reckless

> disregard for the safety of others, isn't protected by immunity, the court

> said.

>

> Lawyers for the city had argued that the misconduct exception to the

> immunity provision should not apply in a situation where emergency

personnel

> had not yet located the patient.

>

> Justice Ben , writing for the majority, noted that emergency

services

> have been interpreted to include transportation of patients and declared,

> " If transporting a patient to a hospital is an aspect of life support

> services, then so too should locating a patient in the first place. "

>

> " This is a very important decision because it extends the responsibilities

> and accountabilities of emergency services personnel to locating the

> critically ill patient before they ever physically come in contact with

the

> person, " said A. " Pat " Boyle, attorney for Kazmierowski's estate.

>

> " Can you imagine a more terrifying situation than making a 911 call,

waiting

> and hearing help just feet away and then the last sounds you hear are the

> retreating steps of the help you so urgently needed? " Boyle said. " This

> means that it is no excuse to say that the door is locked, that we can't

get

> through the door or that the telephone was not working when we called

back. "

>

> Fire Department officials declined to comment. A department spokesman said

> previously that the decision to enter a residence is a " judgment call "

made

> by paramedics on the scene and that they were not required to turn the

knob.

>

> Thursday's decision suggests that failing to turn the knob could be

> interpreted as misconduct that is not immune from monetary damages.

>

> Hoyle, spokeswoman for the city's Legal Department, said, " We do

> believe that if we do have to try this case, the facts will show that the

> paramedics did not act willfully and wantonly.

>

> " The paramedics in question spent at least 15 minutes trying to determine

if

> anyone was in the apartment and left after concluding that no one was in

> there. They thought no one was in there. "

>

> Hoyle said city lawyers were considering whether to file a request for

> reconsideration by the Supreme Court because of the " potentially alarming "

> consequences for all municipalities that provide emergency services.

>

> " This might put a burden on paramedics to act like law enforcement-to

break

> down the door or enter to avoid the potential of a situation such as

this, "

> Hoyle said. " We get thousands of calls a year where no one is there when

> paramedics arrive, either because the person has already gone on their own

> to a hospital or because it is a false alarm. "

>

> According to court records and interviews, Kazmierowski, 28, was alone in

> her apartment when she suffered an asthma attack Oct. 24, 1995. She dialed

> 911 and, struggling to breathe, said, " I need help. I'm having an asthma

> attack. ... I think I'm going to die. "

>

> Paramedics were dispatched to the third-floor apartment at 4520 N.

Greenview

> Ave. and knocked on the door. Inside, a dog barked, but no one came to the

> door.

>

> The paramedics called their dispatcher, who had failed to keep

Kazmierowski

> on the line, as required by department regulations.

>

> The dispatcher telephoned the apartment, but the call went into an

answering

> machine. The paramedics then went through a neighbor's apartment to get to

> the rear and knock on Kazmierowski's back door, where there was no answer.

>

> After 15 minutes, the paramedics left.

>

> Later that day, Kazmierowski's boyfriend, Dave Hawkins, came home from

work

> and found her dead in their bedroom. Hawkins said he found the door

> unlocked-just as he said he had left it when he departed for work that

> morning.

>

> Lawyers for the city have said previously that the paramedics say they

> cannot remember if they tried to open the door.

>

> Kazmierowski's father, , of Cheboygan, Mich., said in a telephone

> interview, " I think the Supreme Court certainly interpreted the law

properly

> and in the simple English meaning of the words.

>

> " This is a case that could make the city of Chicago a whole lot safer. I

> don't think the citizens of Chicago realize how far out there they are

> dangling when they call 911. In effect, if you call 911, you better call

> somebody else too. "

>

> Hawkins added, " This confirms what I've been saying all along-that 911 and

> paramedics must be accountable. There is no excuse for almost or halfway

> succeeding at this. 's death was so untimely and tragic. I miss her

> terribly, but today I was thinking that it is like her to help people,

even

> after her death. "

>

> The decision turned on the court's interpretation of the state's Emergency

> Medical Services Systems Act, which sets out the immunity provisions for

> paramedics.

>

> Justice Heiple wrote a dissent that took issue with the majority's

> decision that locating a patient is part of emergency services.

>

> " There is absolutely nothing in the statute to support such a reading, "

> Heiple wrote. " Defendants never even began to provide life support

services

> because they did not even see the patient. "

>

> The majority opinion noted that the lawsuit alleged that paramedics are

> trained to " Try Before You Pry, " meaning that before breaking down a door,

> they should try to turn the knob.

>

> " Locating a person in need of emergency medical treatment is the first

step

> in providing life support services. Not even that first step was taken

> here, " the court said.

>

>

>

>

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