Re: Character assasination

[Guest guest]

I think it has more to do with what is considered choice versus what is

pathology. So many people wonder what actions are personal free will choice,

what is the mental affliction, what is the nature. or what is nurture.

My stance on it is this: Unless we are certifiably insane and cannot possibly

determine right from wrong we must be held accountable for our actions. Some

people were abused and grow up to abuse; I believe these people became attracted

to the idea of power, they learned that violence against the vulnerable was a

cheap way to attain the illusion of power. I believe these people are cowards

and, as cowards, they pick on the vulnerable. After all, the last thing a coward

wants is a fair fight.

Then there are those that were abused and, due to personal choice, chose to

become more compassionate and refused to abuse others. Those are the truly brave

individuals.

It annoys me when criminals claim an abusive childhood as the reason they

damaged society. Yes, some abuse can be so traumatic that it can literally

damage our sanity but, most of the time, we still are able to determine right

from wrong. Bottom line is, those that continued the cycle of abuse took the

selfish way out, those that broke the cycle are brave warriors for good.

Wilkinson wrote:

I suppose that in their own sick way that is how they get control. Kind of the

Lord of the Flies for parents. They were abused so they are taught that it is ok

to abuse. What gets me is that there are many many people who are abused and

then don't go on to do that to their children. It is as if there is a crazy

switch that is turned on or off depending on the circumstances.. Some part of

you says that it is not ok and that the people who are telling you that it is

are liars. It is despicable for any adult to do that to a child. I also do not

believe that anyone who crosses that line is redeemable. In my eyes if they are

not in jail they should not be left alone with any child and they should be told

that if they go near a child their next action would be to plead guilty in

court.

What I am going to ask is very sensitive question and if I am off base you let

me know. But do you think that the reason your mother did not stop what was

going on with you and you sister is because she was trying to buy your

Grandfada's affection? That the two of you were gifts to keep her tenuous

relationship with him? It absolutely turns my stomach to even think about it,

but it does explain her reaction when you told her what had happened and she

blew you off. Your Nada is a very disturbed person and in a way it is not her

fault that she is disturbed. It is her fault that she did not do more to protect

you. You assume that she has guilt about what she has done and said, I hate to

tell you that but I don't think she does. If she had guilt she would be trying

to do what is right by you, and she is not. She is disconnected from her

responsibilities as a parent. Amazing. No doubt that parts of her emotional make

up died when she was molested. Don't let

that happen to you.

I am so sorry this happened to you. It is not fair. But I do believe in Karma,

what goes around comes around. Look at it this way the more progress you make

the less significant they become. You can never forget what happened, but you

can be strong enough to let it not control you. Keep working on it. Be strong.

You will get there, once you decide where there is.

Re: Character assasination

I think it's crazy but it's a different kind of crazy than what we

are taught about growing up. The further into this work I get the

more furious I get that we aren't even taught to watch for and

discern for sociopaths when we are young/er. 1 out of 20 people is a

sociopath. Bpds and npds act like sociopaths to the point that

sometimes you can't tell the difference. I read somewhere that as

far as borderline that is why it's called that, because it is on the

border between a narcissist and a full-blown sociopath (psychopath) .

Someone correct me if I have that wrong. And then there is the thing

of thinking that sociopaths are all serial killers. Most are not,

most aren't even criminals. And of thinking that crazy people drool

and are ill-groomed. ..when those are the extreme cases and the far

more dangerous crazy person, most of the time, is the one that looks

good, smells okay, dresses well, is well-spoken and charming and has

no conscience whatsoever. This is something I can't believe I never

learned about...all this time thinking it was me and I guess I

deserved this. Only after this last year of drawing several into my

life at once and being hurt by their behavior did I finally

say 'something really messed up is going on here'.

I sometimes wonder reading these posts if it's possible the mothers

who flipped back and forth mood-wise so much are multiple

personality. ..there is a new name for that now, I can't remember it.

How is it that they are able to be crazy yet know that it is okay to

torment their children as long as they keep their appearance to the

outside world. How is it they can torment their children and live

with the guilt? How is it that they can be so absolutely insane to

their kids and so without any understanding of what parenting is but

be so astute as to be able to discern almost perfectly exactly how

to toe the line with the outside world so as not to be suspected of

wrong-doing. ..those two things seem so contradictory to me and yet

they are present in the same person; someone who is a very quick-

study and a master manipulator but seems incapable of approximating,

even remotely, normal parenting behavior. Sorry I have no answers I

am just thinking out loud and pretty incredulous.

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[Guest guest]

That is what Narc/Socio do. They have their atennas tuned to the one thing that

can dissuade their behavior, that being " consequences " Remember that N/BP/SO are

always playing to the crowd, except when it is a crowd that they feel has no

potential power over them (children, the vulnerable). Narc are " high on the lie "

and with every new group there is a new lie to display. Have you noticed that

most Narc are usually quiet and mild mannered when first meeting a new person?

They seem almost generous with their ability to let others talk and they will

listen. That serves the main purpose of Narc.They are attempting to " feel people

out " in order to know how/if they can manipulate/abuse them. It is nothing more

than a way of distinguishing prey or categorizing people.

mayalisa728 wrote: I think it's crazy but it's

a different kind of crazy than what we

are taught about growing up. The further into this work I get the

more furious I get that we aren't even taught to watch for and

discern for sociopaths when we are young/er. 1 out of 20 people is a

sociopath. Bpds and npds act like sociopaths to the point that

sometimes you can't tell the difference. I read somewhere that as

far as borderline that is why it's called that, because it is on the

border between a narcissist and a full-blown sociopath (psychopath).

Someone correct me if I have that wrong. And then there is the thing

of thinking that sociopaths are all serial killers. Most are not,

most aren't even criminals. And of thinking that crazy people drool

and are ill-groomed...when those are the extreme cases and the far

more dangerous crazy person, most of the time, is the one that looks

good, smells okay, dresses well, is well-spoken and charming and has

no conscience whatsoever. This is something I can't believe I never

learned about...all this time thinking it was me and I guess I

deserved this. Only after this last year of drawing several into my

life at once and being hurt by their behavior did I finally

say 'something really messed up is going on here'.

I sometimes wonder reading these posts if it's possible the mothers

who flipped back and forth mood-wise so much are multple

personality...there is a new name for that now, I can't remember it.

How is it that they are able to be crazy yet know that it is okay to

torment their children as long as they keep their appearance to the

outside world. How is it they can torment their children and live

with the guilt? How is it that they can be so absolutely insane to

their kids and so without any understanding of what parenting is but

be so astute as to be able to discern almost perfectly exactly how

to toe the line with the outside world so as not to be suspected of

wrong-doing...those two things seem so contradictory to me and yet

they are present in the same person; someone who is a very quick-

study and a master manipulator but seems incapable of approximating,

even remotely, normal parenting behavior. Sorry I have no answers I

am just thinking out loud and pretty incredulous.

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

What is mpd? Oh sorry, it's multiple personality disorder. Yeah, N/BPs seem to

have that but it is a voluntary shifting into a new person. They want to be the

personality that will service their particular whim at that moment.

mayalisa728 wrote: I can relate to this:

then when she's done and she gets out of the car, it's like

> nothing ever happened. WTF?!!?!??!??!

>

When I first got into recovery from alcoholism there was a while where

I thought maybe my mother was mpd or something like that, just because

of these weird 'blanks' she would have.

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[Guest guest]

re your last paragraph, i doubt my mom has any multiple personalities.

she probably has faulty wiring where memory is concerned. and

knowing what is and isn't accepted? i think that's probably learned

behavior. i know my mom had a heckuva childhood and her mom is

COMPLETELY hung up on appearances (even though she blames her obesity

on my mom...very very strange dynamic there). and she doesn't really

seem to know that you can get mad about something and you don't have

to go to extreme madness.

example: my husband was doing the laundry (which he always does...i am

a very lucky girl) and i noticed that he had hung one of my new

sweaters out to dry. at first, i thought JESUSFARKINGCHRIST my

DADGUMNEWSWEATERISRUINED!!! like, my brain jumped there faster than

you could say fast. but then i thought, well, this is the first

sweater made out of wool that i've actually owned and he probably

didn't read the label and after all, it is just a sweater...nothing to

ruin someone's day over.

and then i thought...wow...it's just a sweater...NOTHING TO RUIN

SOMEONE'S DAY OVER...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

so instead of getting mad at him, i went in and said, " hey babe, i

know you're doing the laundry and i like that you do the laundry, but

you have to lay out sweaters flat or they'll get all stretched out.

i'll just wash this one again and see if it goes back to the right

shape. " he still felt bad about this and i was very glad he didn't

have a mom like mine because he would have been DESTROYED.

um, tangent?

NO! I REMEMBER MY POINT! my mom doesn't seem to have the ability to

take a step back and separate what she's feeling from what the

appropriate response to the situation should be. she doesn't fear

children's responses, but she does fear adults' responses, so that's

probably why she can react one way in public and another in private.

bink

>

> I think it's crazy but it's a different kind of crazy than what we

> are taught about growing up. The further into this work I get the

> more furious I get that we aren't even taught to watch for and

> discern for sociopaths when we are young/er. 1 out of 20 people is a

> sociopath. Bpds and npds act like sociopaths to the point that

> sometimes you can't tell the difference. I read somewhere that as

> far as borderline that is why it's called that, because it is on the

> border between a narcissist and a full-blown sociopath (psychopath).

> Someone correct me if I have that wrong. And then there is the thing

> of thinking that sociopaths are all serial killers. Most are not,

> most aren't even criminals. And of thinking that crazy people drool

> and are ill-groomed...when those are the extreme cases and the far

> more dangerous crazy person, most of the time, is the one that looks

> good, smells okay, dresses well, is well-spoken and charming and has

> no conscience whatsoever. This is something I can't believe I never

> learned about...all this time thinking it was me and I guess I

> deserved this. Only after this last year of drawing several into my

> life at once and being hurt by their behavior did I finally

> say 'something really messed up is going on here'.

>

> I sometimes wonder reading these posts if it's possible the mothers

> who flipped back and forth mood-wise so much are multple

> personality...there is a new name for that now, I can't remember it.

> How is it that they are able to be crazy yet know that it is okay to

> torment their children as long as they keep their appearance to the

> outside world. How is it they can torment their children and live

> with the guilt? How is it that they can be so absolutely insane to

> their kids and so without any understanding of what parenting is but

> be so astute as to be able to discern almost perfectly exactly how

> to toe the line with the outside world so as not to be suspected of

> wrong-doing...those two things seem so contradictory to me and yet

> they are present in the same person; someone who is a very quick-

> study and a master manipulator but seems incapable of approximating,

> even remotely, normal parenting behavior. Sorry I have no answers I

> am just thinking out loud and pretty incredulous.

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks . Not trying to sound like my issues are worse than anyone else's,

dammit though, I need to hear that healthy parents don't pull those kind of

stunts.

I hope that everything works out with your " relatives " on YOUR terms and that

you are surrounded ONLY by people that treat you with respect. You deserve it.

I've had to cut ties with some " relatives " for my own safety so I understand the

challenge.

Keep taking care of yourself and your son!

Wilkinson wrote:

Not only yes, but hell yes. This is in no way normal behavior. Admit that you

were trained to react the way you are reacting. You have some real work ahead of

you to try and decouple your behavior and reactions from what your mother did to

you. DID to you. She did this for her own reasons which you may NEVER be able to

understand. Work on getting distance between you and this abhorrent behavior. As

for attracting the wrong sort of people. My God what else do you know? Honey,

you have my deepest sympathies for what you are going through. Be good to

yourself. I cannot even begin to understand what it may be like to walk in your

shoes, but if any of us can pull ourselves out of that hole so can you. For me

the first step was letting go of the illusions I had about my family. That if

only I were " better, " what ever that meant, that my family would be better. Not

gonna happen. You can renegotiate your relationships on you terms. It is up to

your family to

either accept or reject it, but that is their problem not yours.

Right now I am working on letting my brother go for good. I don't like the way

he treats me and I really don't like the way he treats my son. Not going to put

up with it and not going to let anyone hurt my son. Fortunately my mother and I

are renegotiating our relationship, but I am not hopeful that it will turn out

all right. I can't be because I have been let down so many times before. We will

see what will happen.

When you finally accept that you deserve to be treated better you will seek out

people who will treat you better. You deserve to be treated better in every

respect. I think there are healthy people and people who get healthy and that is

a part of growing up. Here is my idea of healthy: it doesn't hurt and you have

nothing to explain if there is nothing to explain.

Be strong.

Re: Re: Character assasination

I'm in a bad place regarding all of this right now. I began therapy several

months ago..it has helped but I'm still in the painful healing process.

My main wound that must heal is that I have developed an absolute terror of

other people. Really, it has been destructive to my functioning as a productive

member of society. Here's the situation:

My Nada would do the cruelest abuses she could think of (having fake heart

attacks, beating me without any warning or provocation, horrible character

assassination, and one psycho episode after the next). She would do all of that

in private without witnesses but, the SECOND any member of the " public " showed

up, she would immediately become " saintly " .

Here's one example: She would often have her fake heart attacks. I had already

learned not to call the paramedics when she did that (the first time I tried to

call for help she forced me intro a choke hold and then dragged me around the

kitchen floor by my hair). Imagine this: A supposed grown woman was on the floor

in fake convulsions, frothing at the mouth. The phone then rang and, like

nothing had happened at all, she immediately got up and answered the phone. She

sounded so sweet and calm. She often changed her demeanor like a light switch.

Another example: She would rage while driving to church. She would scream

obscenities at small kids but, the SECOND, her foot hit the church parking lot,

she became " saintly " again. I would watch her as she went up to get Communion

(for those that aren't Catholic, it is a mortal sin to accept Communion without

confession. She obviously didn't consider screaming obscenities at children to

be sinful at all). I almost expected her head to spin around like the " Exorcist "

movie when she blessed herself with Holy Water or took Communion. It is terrible

when you live with a " mother " who really is just Satan's Sadistic Sister.

How did all that affect me? I don't trust anyone. The sweeter a person is the

more uncomfortable I am around them. I don't have any personal friendships

anymore because the terror of " waiting for the attack " is too much to handle.

Ironically, I can handle myself well in superficial situations. I am a kind,

respectful, and trustworthy person. Other people have noticed that and have

offered their friendships to me. The moment they ask me to socialize with them I

find excuses not to go because I am terrified that they will hurt me. I am

terrified that they are sadists that are scheming to attack when I am

vulnerable.

How do I heal from this? It has sabotaged my career,my mental health, and my

life. I want to heal but I don't know how. Do any of you feel that way? How did

you cope?

sboothdaniels wrote:

I am sooo in that place right now. While therapy has been incredibly

supportive and discovering the real issues of my Nada have been

helpful all of this has also slammed me wide awake to the patterns

(although less) that I have learned through my nadas behavior.

Forgiveness and giving myself a break is not coming easy. I feel

horrible for some of the things I have put my husband through and yes

I do feel in my gut I am to completely blame even though it was a

dynamic. It's that black and white thing all over the right and

wrong. I am doing so much better in my relationships now and yet

still can't find the acceptance button. How come the rewind and play

back buttons are so easy to find? and the darn eject button never

works? Sorry you are having a troubled day Mercy.

Suebee

> >

> >

> > I say as KO's we should be forgiven for our paranoia just a little.

> >

> > Carla

>

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[Guest guest]

>

> Have you noticed that most Narc are usually quiet and mild mannered

when first meeting a new person? They seem almost generous with their

ability to let others talk and they will listen. That serves the main

purpose of Narc.They are attempting to " feel people out " in order to

know how/if they can manipulate/abuse them. It is nothing more than a

way of distinguishing prey or categorizing people.

>

scary...i totally do this. i think i do it to keep myself from

getting screwed over by people, but it is incredibly strange how much

information most people are willing to volunteer to a stranger...and

given my ability to read people and tell whether they are lying or not

AND interpret their reactions to thing fairly accurately, i can have a

pretty good workup of that person in a very short amount of time which

is usually right. i make it a point never to tell anyone anything

that i think they can use against me, no matter how good at listening

they are.

[Guest guest]

The difference is that you don't use it towards malignant purposes. Interesting

but have you ever noticed that its the same methods used towards a different

purpose? For example: The same psychological tricks advertisers use to

manipulate us into a bad idea are the same tactics used to excite people into a

good idea. The same tactics the police use to stake out a criminals house are

the same tactics the criminals use to stalk a person? Maybe its just me, but I

have noticed that its the same stuff used towards a different goal.

bink1227 wrote:

>

> Have you noticed that most Narc are usually quiet and mild mannered

when first meeting a new person? They seem almost generous with their

ability to let others talk and they will listen. That serves the main

purpose of Narc.They are attempting to " feel people out " in order to

know how/if they can manipulate/abuse them. It is nothing more than a

way of distinguishing prey or categorizing people.

>

scary...i totally do this. i think i do it to keep myself from

getting screwed over by people, but it is incredibly strange how much

information most people are willing to volunteer to a stranger...and

given my ability to read people and tell whether they are lying or not

AND interpret their reactions to thing fairly accurately, i can have a

pretty good workup of that person in a very short amount of time which

is usually right. i make it a point never to tell anyone anything

that i think they can use against me, no matter how good at listening

they are.

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Damn, your Nada went out of her way to damage everyone around her. Thank God you

are out of there now!! You don't actually speak to her anymore do you?

bink1227 wrote: i thought it was going

to be a good idea when my parents divorced

because they fought ALL the TIME and if they had some time away from

each other, i thought they could chill out. that isn't what

happened...my mom turned on me and fought ALL the TIME anyway. and

without dad there, i was the closest thing to a rational adult in the

house (and i was 11). i realize that it takes two to tango, but it's

really hard for me not to blame her for the divorce.

also, it adds a whole new level of jealousy and craziness to family

holidays. mom would always " forget " every year that we were going to

go to dad's holiday things and would plan something at the exact same

time across town and freak out when we decided to stick to the plan

and go to dad's thing. and she would get crazy jealous of the time i

spent with dad's sisters. she would often threaten to send me to live

with my dad, but she never did...now THAT would have been nice. see,

there never really was time away from her. there was time preparing

to tell her we were doing something and time waiting for the onslaught

of craziness and time worrying how life would be when we got back and

time hearing how our entire family was out to get us and that they

didn't like us anyway. never a break...not even in the middle of the

night...thinking about this is kind of making me wonder whether i'm a

rational adult or whether i'm so crazy i have deluded myself into

THINKING i'm a rational adult, because it doesn't seem that anything

good could come out of a crazy situation i came from.

sounds like your mom is a big honking hypocrite. why does life have

to be so chaotic for them? why do they HAVE to create these

situations? why can't they just let anybody ever relax around them?

i don't get it.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I say as KO's we should be forgiven for our paranoia just a

> > little.

> > > > >

> > > > > Carla

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

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> > Search.

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

this board is SO WEIRD! it's so strange to have people say what i've

been thinking for so long, yet haven't heard in forever.

i think what we have would be considered low contact: i go over to her

house every other sunday for a couple of hours and hang out with my

little sister who lives there, my other sister, family friends, and a

few cousins (from dad's side of the family, strangely enough), but i

don't talk to her on the phone or email her, and she doesn't have

permission to call my cell phone. i don't give her the number and

forbade everyone in the family from giving it to her. we have a very

superficial relationship, and practically no time alone together. she

doesn't seem very interested in me as a human and it's probably best

that way. she has tried to cause problems between my mom-in-law and i

and i think that she figures i've " chosen " my mom-in-law. the thing

she does most often that causes drama is to refuse to let my little

sister leave the house, but the sis just turned 18, so that probably

won't be a problem anymore.

ALL THREE OF US SISTERS HAVE SURVIVED INTO ADULTHOOD! WOOHOO!!!

bink

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I say as KO's we should be forgiven for our paranoia just a

> > > little.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Carla

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with

Yahoo!

> > > Search.

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

I agree completely.

Re: Character assasination

I think it's crazy but it's a different kind of crazy than what we

are taught about growing up. The further into this work I get the

more furious I get that we aren't even taught to watch for and

discern for sociopaths when we are young/er. 1 out of 20 people is a

sociopath. Bpds and npds act like sociopaths to the point that

sometimes you can't tell the difference. I read somewhere that as

far as borderline that is why it's called that, because it is on the

border between a narcissist and a full-blown sociopath (psychopath) .

Someone correct me if I have that wrong. And then there is the thing

of thinking that sociopaths are all serial killers. Most are not,

most aren't even criminals. And of thinking that crazy people drool

and are ill-groomed. ..when those are the extreme cases and the far

more dangerous crazy person, most of the time, is the one that looks

good, smells okay, dresses well, is well-spoken and charming and has

no conscience whatsoever. This is something I can't believe I never

learned about....all this time thinking it was me and I guess I

deserved this. Only after this last year of drawing several into my

life at once and being hurt by their behavior did I finally

say 'something really messed up is going on here'.

I sometimes wonder reading these posts if it's possible the mothers

who flipped back and forth mood-wise so much are multiple

personality. ..there is a new name for that now, I can't remember it.

How is it that they are able to be crazy yet know that it is okay to

torment their children as long as they keep their appearance to the

outside world. How is it they can torment their children and live

with the guilt? How is it that they can be so absolutely insane to

their kids and so without any understanding of what parenting is but

be so astute as to be able to discern almost perfectly exactly how

to toe the line with the outside world so as not to be suspected of

wrong-doing. ..those two things seem so contradictory to me and yet

they are present in the same person; someone who is a very quick-

study and a master manipulator but seems incapable of approximating,

even remotely, normal parenting behavior. Sorry I have no answers I

am just thinking out loud and pretty incredulous.

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[Guest guest]

sounds like your mom might have attempted to tell someone about her

father, but she got a response like the " bragging " response. i'm

totally not trying to defend her. what she did was bad bad bad. but

it just seems like this kind of language probably originated from

somewhere in her childhood. it just seems like such an odd thing to

say. " wow! look at me! i was completely abused by someone who was

supposed to care about me! am i lucky or what?!?! " what the freaking

hell? talking about painful stuff is not bragging.

does this make sense?

bink

>

> wow, I can't even imagine what is going on in her head, really. I

> don't have a clue. Her defense is that she didn't think her father

> would 'ever touch his grandchildren'. What that means I have no

> idea. Back then no one was talking about sexual abuse, it was very

> hidden. I truly believe that women on both sides of my family bury

> the part of their psyche that remembers the abuse. Because they

> can't 'go there' they can't protect their own children, or any

> children around them. Instead of looking for 'warning signs' that

> predators give out, they either don't see them or they attract them.

> Since it is too painful for *them* to deal with they can't see it in

> the lives of their children and protect them. It's the heighth of

> narcissism, really, you can't get much more narcissistic than that.

> I really believe that my mom got married and left home and believed

> the past was the past. She didn't understand about repetition

> compulsion or any of that stuff, even today very few people do. I

> confronted my dad and her about this once...I said, how on earth

> could you even send your child to stay unsupervised with someone who

> was a *even* chronic alcoholic, a daily drinker. He rode the train

> to come get me and went immediately to the bar on the train and got

> drunk. They were both in complete denial...and they sure don't

> appreciate me bringing this stuff up now, either. To them and to the

> family members I've talked about it to I am just tormenting them

> with the past. I am sorry for my mom but I'm also sorry for my own

> experience. I do believe the guilt of this torments her. Actually,

> you know, the guilt was tormenting her when my brother went NC with

> my family and she lost her grandchild. Now that my brother is back

> on the scene and apparently 'didn't really mean it' about the sexual

> abuse and their refusal to acknowledge it being the reason he went

> NC (he might have been abused as well) something seems to have

> shifted, and not for the better, in our relationship. This is in the

> past few months.

>

> I am much more angry with her about her treatment of me when I

> started showing emotional problems from the abuse than the initial

> abuse happening. I don't know why that is. I guess because when I

> was that young she was in denial and no one was talking about it.

> When I was older, everyone was talking about it, I had a meltdown

> and started therapy (and became addicted) and she told me it was

> like my sister and I " bragged about " having been sexually abused. Of

> course she " doesn't remember " saying that now. I remember exactly

> where I was standing, what I was wearing, etc, when she said that.

> Thanks so much for your posts on here, and your questions, they have

> gotten me thinking.

>

[Guest guest]

" Have you noticed that most Narc are usually quiet and mild mannered when first

meeting a new person? "

Many of those I have met who fall into this catagory, are very very good at

this. They are testing the waters and when they see an opportunity they go for

it. They don't want to push too hard, because they might scare off potential

prey. Once they have you figured out, then they test the boundaries and if they

find you have none it is open season.

Then it is all about tearing you down so that they can shine.

A sick mirror.

Re: Re: Character assasination

That is what Narc/Socio do. They have their atennas tuned to the one thing that

can dissuade their behavior, that being " consequences " Remember that N/BP/SO are

always playing to the crowd, except when it is a crowd that they feel has no

potential power over them (children, the vulnerable). Narc are " high on the lie "

and with every new group there is a new lie to display. Have you noticed that

most Narc are usually quiet and mild mannered when first meeting a new person?

They seem almost generous with their ability to let others talk and they will

listen. That serves the main purpose of Narc.They are attempting to " feel people

out " in order to know how/if they can manipulate/abuse them. It is nothing more

than a way of distinguishing prey or categorizing people.

mayalisa728 <mayalisa728@ yahoo.com> wrote: I think it's crazy but it's a

different kind of crazy than what we

are taught about growing up. The further into this work I get the

more furious I get that we aren't even taught to watch for and

discern for sociopaths when we are young/er. 1 out of 20 people is a

sociopath. Bpds and npds act like sociopaths to the point that

sometimes you can't tell the difference. I read somewhere that as

far as borderline that is why it's called that, because it is on the

border between a narcissist and a full-blown sociopath (psychopath) .

Someone correct me if I have that wrong. And then there is the thing

of thinking that sociopaths are all serial killers. Most are not,

most aren't even criminals. And of thinking that crazy people drool

and are ill-groomed. ..when those are the extreme cases and the far

more dangerous crazy person, most of the time, is the one that looks

good, smells okay, dresses well, is well-spoken and charming and has

no conscience whatsoever. This is something I can't believe I never

learned about...all this time thinking it was me and I guess I

deserved this. Only after this last year of drawing several into my

life at once and being hurt by their behavior did I finally

say 'something really messed up is going on here'.

I sometimes wonder reading these posts if it's possible the mothers

who flipped back and forth mood-wise so much are multple

personality. ..there is a new name for that now, I can't remember it.

How is it that they are able to be crazy yet know that it is okay to

torment their children as long as they keep their appearance to the

outside world. How is it they can torment their children and live

with the guilt? How is it that they can be so absolutely insane to

their kids and so without any understanding of what parenting is but

be so astute as to be able to discern almost perfectly exactly how

to toe the line with the outside world so as not to be suspected of

wrong-doing. ..those two things seem so contradictory to me and yet

they are present in the same person; someone who is a very quick-

study and a master manipulator but seems incapable of approximating,

even remotely, normal parenting behavior. Sorry I have no answers I

am just thinking out loud and pretty incredulous.

------------ --------- --------- ---

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[Guest guest]

Thank you. I'm glad I can in some small way to help you regain your

perspective. Your mom's behavior might be normal on a Saturday Night Live skit,

but it is not normal anywhere else. I know that I am dating myself but Jane

Curtain could have taken everything you wrote and turned it into one scary funny

skit. We could call it Psycho Mother's Day. I don't know why I find that worth a

chuckle and I am in no way making light of what you have gone through. But it is

so over the top, that it is just this side of ridiculous. And that is your mom's

problem not yours.

Be strong.

Re: Re: Character assasination

I'm in a bad place regarding all of this right now. I began therapy several

months ago..it has helped but I'm still in the painful healing process.

My main wound that must heal is that I have developed an absolute terror of

other people. Really, it has been destructive to my functioning as a productive

member of society. Here's the situation:

My Nada would do the cruelest abuses she could think of (having fake heart

attacks, beating me without any warning or provocation, horrible character

assassination, and one psycho episode after the next). She would do all of that

in private without witnesses but, the SECOND any member of the " public " showed

up, she would immediately become " saintly " .

Here's one example: She would often have her fake heart attacks. I had already

learned not to call the paramedics when she did that (the first time I tried to

call for help she forced me intro a choke hold and then dragged me around the

kitchen floor by my hair). Imagine this: A supposed grown woman was on the floor

in fake convulsions, frothing at the mouth. The phone then rang and, like

nothing had happened at all, she immediately got up and answered the phone. She

sounded so sweet and calm. She often changed her demeanor like a light switch.

Another example: She would rage while driving to church. She would scream

obscenities at small kids but, the SECOND, her foot hit the church parking lot,

she became " saintly " again. I would watch her as she went up to get Communion

(for those that aren't Catholic, it is a mortal sin to accept Communion without

confession. She obviously didn't consider screaming obscenities at children to

be sinful at all). I almost expected her head to spin around like the " Exorcist "

movie when she blessed herself with Holy Water or took Communion. It is terrible

when you live with a " mother " who really is just Satan's Sadistic Sister.

How did all that affect me? I don't trust anyone. The sweeter a person is the

more uncomfortable I am around them. I don't have any personal friendships

anymore because the terror of " waiting for the attack " is too much to handle.

Ironically, I can handle myself well in superficial situations. I am a kind,

respectful, and trustworthy person. Other people have noticed that and have

offered their friendships to me. The moment they ask me to socialize with them I

find excuses not to go because I am terrified that they will hurt me. I am

terrified that they are sadists that are scheming to attack when I am

vulnerable.

How do I heal from this? It has sabotaged my career,my mental health, and my

life.. I want to heal but I don't know how. Do any of you feel that way? How did

you cope?

sboothdaniels wrote:

I am sooo in that place right now. While therapy has been incredibly

supportive and discovering the real issues of my Nada have been

helpful all of this has also slammed me wide awake to the patterns

(although less) that I have learned through my nadas behavior.

Forgiveness and giving myself a break is not coming easy. I feel

horrible for some of the things I have put my husband through and yes

I do feel in my gut I am to completely blame even though it was a

dynamic. It's that black and white thing all over the right and

wrong. I am doing so much better in my relationships now and yet

still can't find the acceptance button. How come the rewind and play

back buttons are so easy to find? and the darn eject button never

works? Sorry you are having a troubled day Mercy.

Suebee

> >

> >

> > I say as KO's we should be forgiven for our paranoia just a little.

> >

> > Carla

>

------------ --------- --------- ---

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[Guest guest]

I think she was just embarassed about it and was trying to shut us up

from talking about it. Just a typical narcissistic reaction.

[Guest guest]

" I am much more angry with her about her treatment of me when I

started showing emotional problems from the abuse than the initial

abuse happening. I don't know why that is. "

She was your mother and as such should have been on your side. It is

heartbreaking to hear your story and yet you are confirming what I have always

suspected, child abuse does not come crashing in out of the blue. There are many

many signs and you have to be open to them to keep your children safe. Being a

single mom I am truly terrified that my son might be taken advantage of because

he lacks a father figure. That is why he is so attached to his Uncle, because he

is a dominant male figure in his life and he needs that. That my brother is so

cold to him breaks my heart and is part of the reason I want to cut my brother

loose. Because my son feels he has to work extra hard to get my brother's

attention, he is being trained for how other males might interact with him. I

will not have my brother set my son's boundaries.

Because that is just wrong. My boy should have a loving and safe relationship

with an adult male in order for him to grow up to be a loving and safe man. I am

glad you are in a place to share your story, because it helps me to understand

how to view men who are prone to that kind of monsterous behavior. I will be

sure to check out any adult male's extended family before I let that man have

any sort of friendship or relationship (big brothers, big sisters or stepfather)

with my son. By being honest you are helping me protect my son and I thank you

for it.

Re: Character assasination

wow, I can't even imagine what is going on in her head, really. I

don't have a clue. Her defense is that she didn't think her father

would 'ever touch his grandchildren' . What that means I have no

idea. Back then no one was talking about sexual abuse, it was very

hidden. I truly believe that women on both sides of my family bury

the part of their psyche that remembers the abuse. Because they

can't 'go there' they can't protect their own children, or any

children around them. Instead of looking for 'warning signs' that

predators give out, they either don't see them or they attract them.

Since it is too painful for *them* to deal with they can't see it in

the lives of their children and protect them. It's the heighth of

narcissism, really, you can't get much more narcissistic than that.

I really believe that my mom got married and left home and believed

the past was the past. She didn't understand about repetition

compulsion or any of that stuff, even today very few people do. I

confronted my dad and her about this once...I said, how on earth

could you even send your child to stay unsupervised with someone who

was a *even* chronic alcoholic, a daily drinker. He rode the train

to come get me and went immediately to the bar on the train and got

drunk. They were both in complete denial...and they sure don't

appreciate me bringing this stuff up now, either. To them and to the

family members I've talked about it to I am just tormenting them

with the past. I am sorry for my mom but I'm also sorry for my own

experience. I do believe the guilt of this torments her. Actually,

you know, the guilt was tormenting her when my brother went NC with

my family and she lost her grandchild. Now that my brother is back

on the scene and apparently 'didn't really mean it' about the sexual

abuse and their refusal to acknowledge it being the reason he went

NC (he might have been abused as well) something seems to have

shifted, and not for the better, in our relationship. This is in the

past few months.

I am much more angry with her about her treatment of me when I

started showing emotional problems from the abuse than the initial

abuse happening. I don't know why that is. I guess because when I

was that young she was in denial and no one was talking about it.

When I was older, everyone was talking about it, I had a meltdown

and started therapy (and became addicted) and she told me it was

like my sister and I " bragged about " having been sexually abused. Of

course she " doesn't remember " saying that now. I remember exactly

where I was standing, what I was wearing, etc, when she said that.

Thanks so much for your posts on here, and your questions, they have

gotten me thinking.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

It doesn't come from a book it is just what I have observed in my experience.

There have been some discussions about the connection between narcisssism, drug

addiction, and mental health issues. A " dry drunk " would be considered a

narcissist that once drank but, now even being sober, still utilizes the same

projection, deflection, and denial that an alcoholic uses. Interesting, these

are the exact same tactics used by any Narcissist whether they use substances or

not.

mayalisa728 wrote: okay, that helps, thanks. I

am still very fuzzy on all this but if I

look at their behavior with 'consequences' being the thing that

motivates them in all instances, or not, it seems to be a unifying

thread. When you say 'high on the lie' etc as regards to narcissists,

does that come from a specific book? I'd like to read more about this

and would love some suggestions for reading material.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Sorry, I should have clarified. Narcissists are motivated by " whim " and they

only modify their behavior due to fear of " consequences " . One example, if a Narc

feels the whim to slap a person across the face they don't judge the situation

in terms of right/wrong, fair/unfair. They will slap that person if they feel

that they can get away with it without consequences. Usually a Narc will abuse

someone that is vunerable but never hit, for example, a 300 pound bodybuilder.

Does that make any sense?

Heon wrote:

It doesn't come from a book it is just what I have observed in my

experience. There have been some discussions about the connection between

narcisssism, drug addiction, and mental health issues. A " dry drunk " would be

considered a narcissist that once drank but, now even being sober, still

utilizes the same projection, deflection, and denial that an alcoholic uses.

Interesting, these are the exact same tactics used by any Narcissist whether

they use substances or not.

mayalisa728 wrote: okay, that helps, thanks. I am still

very fuzzy on all this but if I

look at their behavior with 'consequences' being the thing that

motivates them in all instances, or not, it seems to be a unifying

thread. When you say 'high on the lie' etc as regards to narcissists,

does that come from a specific book? I'd like to read more about this

and would love some suggestions for reading material.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Makes extreme sense.

Re: Re: Character assasination

Sorry, I should have clarified. Narcissists are motivated by " whim " and they

only modify their behavior due to fear of " consequences " . One example, if a

Narc feels the whim to slap a person across the face they don't judge the

situation in terms of right/wrong, fair/unfair.. They will slap that person if

they feel that they can get away with it without consequences. Usually a Narc

will abuse someone that is vunerable but never hit, for example, a 300 pound

bodybuilder.

Does that make any sense?

Heon <mheonyahoo (DOT) com> wrote:

It doesn't come from a book it is just what I have observed in my experience.

There have been some discussions about the connection between narcisssism, drug

addiction, and mental health issues. A " dry drunk " would be considered a

narcissist that once drank but, now even being sober, still utilizes the same

projection, deflection, and denial that an alcoholic uses. Interesting, these

are the exact same tactics used by any Narcissist whether they use substances or

not.

mayalisa728 <mayalisa728@ yahoo.com> wrote: okay, that helps, thanks. I am still

very fuzzy on all this but if I

look at their behavior with 'consequences' being the thing that

motivates them in all instances, or not, it seems to be a unifying

thread. When you say 'high on the lie' etc as regards to narcissists,

does that come from a specific book? I'd like to read more about this

and would love some suggestions for reading material.

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __

[Guest guest]

I love that phrase 'high on the lie' and it would be great if at some

point you could write out the bullet points...I have witnessed

the 'high on the lie' behavior in a friend of mine, slandering people

and then eating them alive when they tried to defend themselves

against her, despite the fact that she was completely in the wrong

with what she was doing and the truth was not on her side. Her

presence was so strong that she got away with it, and you could just

feel the satifaction she was getting from hurting someone coming out

of her pores, it was like hurting people was her 'raison d'etre'; she

could have been a junkie or a kleptomaniac but instead her 'fix' was

playing these games, breaking up couples and wooing the man to her

side. It was sick and bizarre, but clearly she got a 'high' from it.

[Guest guest]

she got away with it by looks, charm, money, and charisma. I should

have said former friend rather than friend. She does something I've

never seen anyone do, which is cultivate suitors behind the scenes so

that they will rush to her defense when she is going after one of her

victims. I realized that she was making each potential suitor think

they were 'the one' or close to being 'the one'...whereas normal

people would take care not to lead anyone on she would tease people,

even tell them she 'loved them' and call them 'darling' and tell them

how 'wonderful' they were. Because she looked like a model (or an

older version of a model) men just fell all over themselves for her.

Really a vicious person that had the ability to come out smelling like

a rose because her suitors were so ga-ga over her and would defend her

against people whom she had genuinely wronged; she really seemed to

love 'stealing' men from women who were interested in them, when the

relationship was new. She betrayed my trust in a really public and

vicious way, but live and learn. I needed to know there were bad

people in the world, not violent criminals but people like her who

thrive on causing others emotional pain for sport.

[Guest guest]

yes, it's very, very true. I've never met anyone who takes so much

pure pleasure from causing other women pain. It was a hard lesson to

learn but I am glad I understand that there are people out there who

are all shiny on the outside but whose insides are black grimey goop.

Looks good does not equal is good.

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry that happened. People like that have several short term relationships

but most people (unless they are fellow sociopaths/narcs) drop them after a year

or so.

mayalisa728 wrote: she got away with it by

looks, charm, money, and charisma. I should

have said former friend rather than friend. She does something I've

never seen anyone do, which is cultivate suitors behind the scenes so

that they will rush to her defense when she is going after one of her

victims. I realized that she was making each potential suitor think

they were 'the one' or close to being 'the one'...whereas normal

people would take care not to lead anyone on she would tease people,

even tell them she 'loved them' and call them 'darling' and tell them

how 'wonderful' they were. Because she looked like a model (or an

older version of a model) men just fell all over themselves for her.

Really a vicious person that had the ability to come out smelling like

a rose because her suitors were so ga-ga over her and would defend her

against people whom she had genuinely wronged; she really seemed to

love 'stealing' men from women who were interested in them, when the

relationship was new. She betrayed my trust in a really public and

vicious way, but live and learn. I needed to know there were bad

people in the world, not violent criminals but people like her who

thrive on causing others emotional pain for sport.

---------------------------------

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