Re: Nada's sense of self

[Guest guest]

Hi maparise17,

First let me say what a beautiful post. So much of what you write is

the heart of it. Noticing the false sense of self and her life for me

is the most painful element to my relationship with my Nada. I live

an honest life and yet I can't be honest with her. It is like I enter

a one dimensional space with her and I don't exsist for a few hours.

And yes I realize even though her world is not what she seems to think

it is non-the-less her pain is real. I allow my mom her fantasy too,

but am learning a compromise here so I don't have to be affected by

her character assination moments. Thanks for sharing a tender and

honest moment with us. And on a lighter note.....I bet the person

that made that damn pillow is a bpd!!

Namaste Suebee

-- In WTOAdultChildren1 , " maparise17 "

wrote:

>

> Yesterday I was spending time with my nada. We were at a gift shop

> and their was a small pillow that said something to the effect, " All

> that I love about my mother is everything she is about. " My nada saw,

> showed me and began crying. I don't even know why she was crying. I

> don't if I was suppose to love her for all she was about. If that is

> how she loved her mother, because she adored her mother and has

> repeated me to since I was old enough to understand how she valued

> her mother. She also add repeatedly the world would be a better

> place, if we all just loved and took care of our mothers. Which

> eventually expanded to made up stories about people taking care of

> their mothers.

> It became an obession with her, then the emotional black mailing

> started with my daughter and stories about grandchildren and

> grandparents...this was when my daughter was an adult.

>

> I think to myself, she has such a false sense of who she is and

> what her life has been, at least to me. I hate it, yet it is her

> reality. I have tried making her see my feelings and side. Only when

> it seems to be benefiting nada, does she accept those feelings.

>

> So I allow her to maintain her fantasy about her life, since I am

> powerless to change her. I put up boundaries when she becomes what I

> call crazy and know that I am trying to lead a more healthier

> lifestyle. Sometimes it is a moment at a time.

>

> Thanks for listening,

> Malinda

>

[Guest guest]

something tells me there are some serious issues about her mom that

she is in complete denial about. wow.

I can relate. These mothers never seem to grasp they gave birth to a

human, not a puppy. If they could have frozen us at the age of 7 they

probably would have. Can you imagine going somewhere with your mom,

and you are about 3 or 4 feet tall, and dressed in ankle socks and

patent leather shoes and a ruffly dress, with bows in your hair, and

the clerk says,

" My, you are a cute little girl, how old are you? " and you smile

proudly and say, " 37! " . And your nada just stand there beaming. What a

great twilight zone episode that would make. But that is their ideal

version of reality, that we never grow up and become people in our own

right, they think " this isn't what I bargained for. "

[Guest guest]

I've posted this before but I have to do it again because it is just the

weirdest thing. My exhusband's mother was bpd. One day he went to see her

and she was sitting on the couch surrounded by photos of him when he was

little. SHe also had this weird pamphlet. THe pamphlet was from a company

that would make a doll that looks like your child did at a certain age. I

think the doll was life sized. She wanted him to help her pick out a photo

because she couldn't decide what age she wanted the doll to be.

AAAAAGH! Nightmare stuff!

>

> something tells me there are some serious issues about her mom that

> she is in complete denial about. wow.

>

> I can relate. These mothers never seem to grasp they gave birth to a

> human, not a puppy. If they could have frozen us at the age of 7 they

> probably would have. Can you imagine going somewhere with your mom,

> and you are about 3 or 4 feet tall, and dressed in ankle socks and

> patent leather shoes and a ruffly dress, with bows in your hair, and

> the clerk says,

> " My, you are a cute little girl, how old are you? " and you smile

> proudly and say, " 37! " . And your nada just stand there beaming. What a

> great twilight zone episode that would make. But that is their ideal

> version of reality, that we never grow up and become people in our own

> right, they think " this isn't what I bargained for. "

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! that's terrifying,

mostly because it's true...

bink

>

> something tells me there are some serious issues about her mom that

> she is in complete denial about. wow.

>

> I can relate. These mothers never seem to grasp they gave birth to

a

> human, not a puppy. If they could have frozen us at the age of 7

they

> probably would have. Can you imagine going somewhere with your mom,

> and you are about 3 or 4 feet tall, and dressed in ankle socks and

> patent leather shoes and a ruffly dress, with bows in your hair,

and

> the clerk says,

> " My, you are a cute little girl, how old are you? " and you smile

> proudly and say, " 37! " . And your nada just stand there beaming.

What a

> great twilight zone episode that would make. But that is their

ideal

> version of reality, that we never grow up and become people in our

own

> right, they think " this isn't what I bargained for. "

>

[Guest guest]

Malinda -- My mother does this, too!

She dramatically will pick out any reference to " mother " and beef it

up like we're all supposed to read between the lines and hold her up

like she's a goddess or something. It's almost like there's an

orchestra in the background, cued up to play when they hear the

word " mother " --

I think they want us to focus on the magic of that word, and not on

the ways they let us down when they were " mothering " . It's like

they want us to make the word " mother " into more of a noun, and

cease thinking of it as a verb.

-Kyla

>

> Yesterday I was spending time with my nada. We were at a gift

shop

> and their was a small pillow that said something to the effect, "

All

> that I love about my mother is everything she is about. " My nada

saw,

> showed me and began crying. I don't even know why she was crying.

I

> don't if I was suppose to love her for all she was about. If that

is

> how she loved her mother, because she adored her mother and has

> repeated me to since I was old enough to understand how she valued

> her mother. She also add repeatedly the world would be a better

> place, if we all just loved and took care of our mothers. Which

> eventually expanded to made up stories about people taking care of

> their mothers.

> It became an obession with her, then the emotional black mailing

> started with my daughter and stories about grandchildren and

> grandparents...this was when my daughter was an adult.

>

> I think to myself, she has such a false sense of who she is

and

> what her life has been, at least to me. I hate it, yet it is her

> reality. I have tried making her see my feelings and side. Only

when

> it seems to be benefiting nada, does she accept those feelings.

>

> So I allow her to maintain her fantasy about her life, since I

am

> powerless to change her. I put up boundaries when she becomes what

I

> call crazy and know that I am trying to lead a more healthier

> lifestyle. Sometimes it is a moment at a time.

>

> Thanks for listening,

> Malinda

>

[Guest guest]

Malinda,

Good for you for realizing you can't change her and thanks for

posting this. Are they all this way? I would like to say that I

would have left her at the gift shop, but I wouldn't. I would have

remained silent and it would have made my blood boil. My NADA loves

to pull the mother card--as if respect remains with the position

regardless of the abuse. I have " enjoyed " reading the replies as

much as the post--mothering is a verb--that should be on a t-shirt.

When my NADA acts like that, I remain silent but there is definetly

an emotional cost. I want to yell at her, but like you, I have

finally come to the conclusion that it won't do any good because she

will either 1) deny, deny, deny or 2) cry and claim she's the worst

mother in the world (until she forgets that conversation and pulls

the " mother card " again). There is no point in even having the

conversation because they will continue to live in their fantasy--I

haven't really made peace with that yet, but I am trying. I thank

God for being a grown-up and no longer being her potted plant---wait,

I mean small, defenseless child with ribbons in my hair.

Bunny Montgomery

>

> Yesterday I was spending time with my nada. We were at a gift

shop

> and their was a small pillow that said something to the effect, "

All

> that I love about my mother is everything she is about. " My nada

saw,

> showed me and began crying. I don't even know why she was crying. I

> don't if I was suppose to love her for all she was about. If that

is

> how she loved her mother, because she adored her mother and has

> repeated me to since I was old enough to understand how she valued

> her mother. She also add repeatedly the world would be a better

> place, if we all just loved and took care of our mothers. Which

> eventually expanded to made up stories about people taking care of

> their mothers.

> It became an obession with her, then the emotional black mailing

> started with my daughter and stories about grandchildren and

> grandparents...this was when my daughter was an adult.

>

> I think to myself, she has such a false sense of who she is and

> what her life has been, at least to me. I hate it, yet it is her

> reality. I have tried making her see my feelings and side. Only

when

> it seems to be benefiting nada, does she accept those feelings.

>

> So I allow her to maintain her fantasy about her life, since I

am

> powerless to change her. I put up boundaries when she becomes what

I

> call crazy and know that I am trying to lead a more healthier

> lifestyle. Sometimes it is a moment at a time.

>

> Thanks for listening,

> Malinda

>

[Guest guest]

wow, that is a brilliant point, they do think of it as a noun instead

of a verb. Also, they think of it as attending to physical needs but

when the child is old enough to have needs beyond the physical they

are so emotionally stunted they can't meet them. So rather than face

the nightmare of their inadequacy to emotionally parent a child they

just amputate those parts of the the child that have needs they can't

fulfill. Ick.

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

I've been reading the posts under the topic " Nada's sense of self "

and they creep me out, I have to be honest. They are so confronting

and recognizable. My mother, wo has not been diagnosed with BPD or

with any other mental illness (because she refuses any treatment) but

shares SO many characteristics with the " profile " (and I share SO

many of the experiences you've all made), alternatingly wanted and in

a way wants us to be grown-ups and small children -- depending on

what she needed or needs more at a certain moment in time and in a

certain mood. The image with the dolls is striking too, I have often

thought " it is as if she has some kind of pre-fixed image of us, her

two daughters in her mind, and if we do not respond to these --- o

my! One of the " topics " in our relationship that demonstrate this

best is the HAIR-ISSUE, that only emerged when I was already an

adolescent. Before she'd always been OK with my long hair, but then

all of a sudden, after I came back from an exchange in Germany and

had not lived in my parents' house for some months, it was like she

urgently needed to punish me. She started to insult me and humiliate

me in every possible way related to my looks (I'd gained weight, she

said; I'd become less handsome a.s.o.) and mainly the hair. She made

comparisons with " madwomen " (she!!), " wild people from the forest " ,

and most humiliating of all with a prostitute (I try to translate the

names she called me into English, sorry if the nuances get lost). I

tried to stick to my long hair, since I loved it and it was

objectively beautiful. She could not take it any longer and one day

she just took scissors and cut it. I was terrified because with

scissors one can be dangerous, and my mother with scissors and in

rage is a VERY dangerous combination. I hate myself for not having

resisted more, but as I say, I was so scared and ever since I was a

child I reacted to her physical aggressions with paralysis. It is

still one of the most painful scenes and it was traumatic, every time

again when I had to go to the hairdresser or even wash or comb my

hair I lived through this moment of deepest humiliation again. It

felt like a vicious violence, a violation. One day, many years later,

my grandmother had died and we drove back home from the funeral. My

hair grew long again, as it is today and I think always will be. My

mother had an " almost monologue " in the car, about death and how

funerals should be and what her funeral should look like (something I

can't remember not having known...) and then she said, God, I could

not believe what she said: she actually turned to me and said to me

and it was really so out of place for so many reasons: " Yes, and if

you die, I can finally cut your hair. " If I write it down I still

feel a knot in my stomach and I almost think I shouldn't write it

down, it is so shameful and maybe I hurt other people's feelings,

bring back your memories... but on the other hand, I would like to

hear -- how should I see this? Is this indeed an extreme example of

the issue we were discussing, the image BPD's seem to have of other

people and how they go about it if reality does not meet this image?

Or if the child, no longer a helpless child with ribbons in her hair,

refuses to be a puppet on a string or a doll from a catalogue any

longer?

x

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Bunny,

Thanks for your feedback. It is amazing how all our experiences are

similiar. Yes, I think they all shared some common characteristics.

Sometimes the way they manifest those characteristics vary. Somehow,

we do survive. Personally I now view my silence as a moment of

empowerment for me. I feel like I am reacting, and my silence, like

my words do say something. In my silence I maintain my verbal

distance and insert a boundary.

I too thank God I am not that small defenseless child. Even after I

physically grew up, that spirit of that defenseless child lived on

inside of me.

Thanks for sharing,

Malinda

> >

> > Yesterday I was spending time with my nada. We were at a gift

> shop

> > and their was a small pillow that said something to the effect, "

> All

> > that I love about my mother is everything she is about. " My nada

> saw,

> > showed me and began crying. I don't even know why she was crying.

I

> > don't if I was suppose to love her for all she was about. If that

> is

> > how she loved her mother, because she adored her mother and has

> > repeated me to since I was old enough to understand how she

valued

> > her mother. She also add repeatedly the world would be a better

> > place, if we all just loved and took care of our mothers. Which

> > eventually expanded to made up stories about people taking care

of

> > their mothers.

> > It became an obession with her, then the emotional black mailing

> > started with my daughter and stories about grandchildren and

> > grandparents...this was when my daughter was an adult.

> >

> > I think to myself, she has such a false sense of who she is

and

> > what her life has been, at least to me. I hate it, yet it is her

> > reality. I have tried making her see my feelings and side. Only

> when

> > it seems to be benefiting nada, does she accept those feelings.

> >

> > So I allow her to maintain her fantasy about her life, since

I

> am

> > powerless to change her. I put up boundaries when she becomes

what

> I

> > call crazy and know that I am trying to lead a more healthier

> > lifestyle. Sometimes it is a moment at a time.

> >

> > Thanks for listening,

> > Malinda

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Oh my gosh. Creepy creepy creepy. The thing with cutting your hair

after you die is way out of line. Maybe you could get a living will

or advanced directives?

My mom used to get all weepy if I didn't get her those sappy " You're

the best mom ever and I'd give you both of my kidneys and go on

dialysis myself so you could pee like a normal person " kind of

birthday and mother's day cards. I just didn't feel it, so I kept

giving her the joking variety. And then one year I plain forgot her

birthday. You'd think I had attempted murder. The tears! The

drama!

>

> Hi all,

> I've been reading the posts under the topic " Nada's sense of self "

> and they creep me out, I have to be honest. They are so

confronting

> and recognizable. My mother, wo has not been diagnosed with BPD or

> with any other mental illness (because she refuses any treatment)

but

> shares SO many characteristics with the " profile " (and I share SO

> many of the experiences you've all made), alternatingly wanted and

in

> a way wants us to be grown-ups and small children -- depending on

> what she needed or needs more at a certain moment in time and in a

> certain mood. The image with the dolls is striking too, I have

often

> thought " it is as if she has some kind of pre-fixed image of us,

her

> two daughters in her mind, and if we do not respond to these --- o

> my! One of the " topics " in our relationship that demonstrate this

> best is the HAIR-ISSUE, that only emerged when I was already an

> adolescent. Before she'd always been OK with my long hair, but

then

> all of a sudden, after I came back from an exchange in Germany and

> had not lived in my parents' house for some months, it was like

she

> urgently needed to punish me. She started to insult me and

humiliate

> me in every possible way related to my looks (I'd gained weight,

she

> said; I'd become less handsome a.s.o.) and mainly the hair. She

made

> comparisons with " madwomen " (she!!), " wild people from the

forest " ,

> and most humiliating of all with a prostitute (I try to translate

the

> names she called me into English, sorry if the nuances get lost).

I

> tried to stick to my long hair, since I loved it and it was

> objectively beautiful. She could not take it any longer and one

day

> she just took scissors and cut it. I was terrified because with

> scissors one can be dangerous, and my mother with scissors and in

> rage is a VERY dangerous combination. I hate myself for not having

> resisted more, but as I say, I was so scared and ever since I was

a

> child I reacted to her physical aggressions with paralysis. It is

> still one of the most painful scenes and it was traumatic, every

time

> again when I had to go to the hairdresser or even wash or comb my

> hair I lived through this moment of deepest humiliation again. It

> felt like a vicious violence, a violation. One day, many years

later,

> my grandmother had died and we drove back home from the funeral.

My

> hair grew long again, as it is today and I think always will be.

My

> mother had an " almost monologue " in the car, about death and how

> funerals should be and what her funeral should look like

(something I

> can't remember not having known...) and then she said, God, I

could

> not believe what she said: she actually turned to me and said to

me

> and it was really so out of place for so many reasons: " Yes, and

if

> you die, I can finally cut your hair. " If I write it down I still

> feel a knot in my stomach and I almost think I shouldn't write it

> down, it is so shameful and maybe I hurt other people's feelings,

> bring back your memories... but on the other hand, I would like to

> hear -- how should I see this? Is this indeed an extreme example

of

> the issue we were discussing, the image BPD's seem to have of

other

> people and how they go about it if reality does not meet this

image?

> Or if the child, no longer a helpless child with ribbons in her

hair,

> refuses to be a puppet on a string or a doll from a catalogue any

> longer?

> x

> Katrina

>

[Guest guest]

Kyla,

Amazing how similiar the nadas can be... Oh yes, my encounters are

that dramatic too...I know it is not funny,when you wrote about the

orchestra playing in the background, it made me smile.

Thanks for sharing,

Malinda

> >

> > Yesterday I was spending time with my nada. We were at a gift

> shop

> > and their was a small pillow that said something to the effect, "

> All

> > that I love about my mother is everything she is about. " My nada

> saw,

> > showed me and began crying. I don't even know why she was crying.

> I

> > don't if I was suppose to love her for all she was about. If that

> is

> > how she loved her mother, because she adored her mother and has

> > repeated me to since I was old enough to understand how she

valued

> > her mother. She also add repeatedly the world would be a better

> > place, if we all just loved and took care of our mothers. Which

> > eventually expanded to made up stories about people taking care

of

> > their mothers.

> > It became an obession with her, then the emotional black mailing

> > started with my daughter and stories about grandchildren and

> > grandparents...this was when my daughter was an adult.

> >

> > I think to myself, she has such a false sense of who she is

> and

> > what her life has been, at least to me. I hate it, yet it is her

> > reality. I have tried making her see my feelings and side. Only

> when

> > it seems to be benefiting nada, does she accept those feelings.

> >

> > So I allow her to maintain her fantasy about her life, since

I

> am

> > powerless to change her. I put up boundaries when she becomes

what

> I

> > call crazy and know that I am trying to lead a more healthier

> > lifestyle. Sometimes it is a moment at a time.

> >

> > Thanks for listening,

> > Malinda

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Mayalisa,

You wrote- " They just amputate those parts of the the child that have

needs they can't fulfill. " --- That was such a graphic, but profound

analogy of our relationship with our BP parents.

Thank you....truer words were never written, then what you wrote. There

in lies our first realization we are not complete and where our

feelings of not being whole get their first roots.

Thanks for your insights,

Malinda

[Guest guest]

Suebee,

Thanks for your kind and supportive words....the affirmations we give

each other are so profound. : )

Malinda

> >

> > Yesterday I was spending time with my nada. We were at a gift

shop

> > and their was a small pillow that said something to the effect, "

All

> > that I love about my mother is everything she is about. " My nada

saw,

> > showed me and began crying. I don't even know why she was crying.

I

> > don't if I was suppose to love her for all she was about. If that

is

> > how she loved her mother, because she adored her mother and has

> > repeated me to since I was old enough to understand how she

valued

> > her mother. She also add repeatedly the world would be a better

> > place, if we all just loved and took care of our mothers. Which

> > eventually expanded to made up stories about people taking care

of

> > their mothers.

> > It became an obession with her, then the emotional black mailing

> > started with my daughter and stories about grandchildren and

> > grandparents...this was when my daughter was an adult.

> >

> > I think to myself, she has such a false sense of who she is

and

> > what her life has been, at least to me. I hate it, yet it is her

> > reality. I have tried making her see my feelings and side. Only

when

> > it seems to be benefiting nada, does she accept those feelings.

> >

> > So I allow her to maintain her fantasy about her life, since

I am

> > powerless to change her. I put up boundaries when she becomes

what I

> > call crazy and know that I am trying to lead a more healthier

> > lifestyle. Sometimes it is a moment at a time.

> >

> > Thanks for listening,

> > Malinda

> >

>

[Guest guest]

that is scary i'm so sorry. Do you have a living will? I've been thinking of

doing one to protect my dead body from my nada, too.

>

> Hi all,

> I've been reading the posts under the topic " Nada's sense of self "

> and they creep me out, I have to be honest. They are so confronting

> and recognizable. My mother, wo has not been diagnosed with BPD or

> with any other mental illness (because she refuses any treatment) but

> shares SO many characteristics with the " profile " (and I share SO

> many of the experiences you've all made), alternatingly wanted and in

> a way wants us to be grown-ups and small children -- depending on

> what she needed or needs more at a certain moment in time and in a

> certain mood. The image with the dolls is striking too, I have often

> thought " it is as if she has some kind of pre-fixed image of us, her

> two daughters in her mind, and if we do not respond to these --- o

> my! One of the " topics " in our relationship that demonstrate this

> best is the HAIR-ISSUE, that only emerged when I was already an

> adolescent. Before she'd always been OK with my long hair, but then

> all of a sudden, after I came back from an exchange in Germany and

> had not lived in my parents' house for some months, it was like she

> urgently needed to punish me. She started to insult me and humiliate

> me in every possible way related to my looks (I'd gained weight, she

> said; I'd become less handsome a.s.o.) and mainly the hair. She made

> comparisons with " madwomen " (she!!), " wild people from the forest " ,

> and most humiliating of all with a prostitute (I try to translate the

> names she called me into English, sorry if the nuances get lost). I

> tried to stick to my long hair, since I loved it and it was

> objectively beautiful. She could not take it any longer and one day

> she just took scissors and cut it. I was terrified because with

> scissors one can be dangerous, and my mother with scissors and in

> rage is a VERY dangerous combination. I hate myself for not having

> resisted more, but as I say, I was so scared and ever since I was a

> child I reacted to her physical aggressions with paralysis. It is

> still one of the most painful scenes and it was traumatic, every time

> again when I had to go to the hairdresser or even wash or comb my

> hair I lived through this moment of deepest humiliation again. It

> felt like a vicious violence, a violation. One day, many years later,

> my grandmother had died and we drove back home from the funeral. My

> hair grew long again, as it is today and I think always will be. My

> mother had an " almost monologue " in the car, about death and how

> funerals should be and what her funeral should look like (something I

> can't remember not having known...) and then she said, God, I could

> not believe what she said: she actually turned to me and said to me

> and it was really so out of place for so many reasons: " Yes, and if

> you die, I can finally cut your hair. " If I write it down I still

> feel a knot in my stomach and I almost think I shouldn't write it

> down, it is so shameful and maybe I hurt other people's feelings,

> bring back your memories... but on the other hand, I would like to

> hear -- how should I see this? Is this indeed an extreme example of

> the issue we were discussing, the image BPD's seem to have of other

> people and how they go about it if reality does not meet this image?

> Or if the child, no longer a helpless child with ribbons in her hair,

> refuses to be a puppet on a string or a doll from a catalogue any

> longer?

> x

> Katrina

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Katrina,

First I want to say I am so sorry, and I hope this post I started

caused no pain to you. You have nothing to be ashamed of. Your

reactions were understandable.

At your grandmother's funeral and your mother is still on your hair...

OMG. You wear your hair however you want. Just keep remembering, this

is your mother's stuff.

No matter how long your hair is-your are no longer that little girl.

You are no longer a victim. You are a woman with a spirit and voice

and use both of them to help you be and look anyway you want to.

Thanks for sharing,

Malinda.

>

> Hi all,

> I've been reading the posts under the topic " Nada's sense of self "

> and they creep me out, I have to be honest. They are so confronting

> and recognizable. My mother, wo has not been diagnosed with BPD or

> with any other mental illness (because she refuses any treatment)

but

> shares SO many characteristics with the " profile " (and I share SO

> many of the experiences you've all made), alternatingly wanted and

in

> a way wants us to be grown-ups and small children -- depending on

> what she needed or needs more at a certain moment in time and in a

> certain mood. The image with the dolls is striking too, I have

often

> thought " it is as if she has some kind of pre-fixed image of us,

her

> two daughters in her mind, and if we do not respond to these --- o

> my! One of the " topics " in our relationship that demonstrate this

> best is the HAIR-ISSUE, that only emerged when I was already an

> adolescent. Before she'd always been OK with my long hair, but then

> all of a sudden, after I came back from an exchange in Germany and

> had not lived in my parents' house for some months, it was like she

> urgently needed to punish me. She started to insult me and

humiliate

> me in every possible way related to my looks (I'd gained weight,

she

> said; I'd become less handsome a.s.o.) and mainly the hair. She

made

> comparisons with " madwomen " (she!!), " wild people from the forest " ,

> and most humiliating of all with a prostitute (I try to translate

the

> names she called me into English, sorry if the nuances get lost). I

> tried to stick to my long hair, since I loved it and it was

> objectively beautiful. She could not take it any longer and one day

> she just took scissors and cut it. I was terrified because with

> scissors one can be dangerous, and my mother with scissors and in

> rage is a VERY dangerous combination. I hate myself for not having

> resisted more, but as I say, I was so scared and ever since I was a

> child I reacted to her physical aggressions with paralysis. It is

> still one of the most painful scenes and it was traumatic, every

time

> again when I had to go to the hairdresser or even wash or comb my

> hair I lived through this moment of deepest humiliation again. It

> felt like a vicious violence, a violation. One day, many years

later,

> my grandmother had died and we drove back home from the funeral. My

> hair grew long again, as it is today and I think always will be. My

> mother had an " almost monologue " in the car, about death and how

> funerals should be and what her funeral should look like (something

I

> can't remember not having known...) and then she said, God, I could

> not believe what she said: she actually turned to me and said to me

> and it was really so out of place for so many reasons: " Yes, and if

> you die, I can finally cut your hair. " If I write it down I still

> feel a knot in my stomach and I almost think I shouldn't write it

> down, it is so shameful and maybe I hurt other people's feelings,

> bring back your memories... but on the other hand, I would like to

> hear -- how should I see this? Is this indeed an extreme example of

> the issue we were discussing, the image BPD's seem to have of other

> people and how they go about it if reality does not meet this

image?

> Or if the child, no longer a helpless child with ribbons in her

hair,

> refuses to be a puppet on a string or a doll from a catalogue any

> longer?

> x

> Katrina

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you to ALL of you who responded to my post. Your affirmations

and kind words mean so much to me. I am back posting and writing

again. I always feel so much like I am home, in the midst of all of

you.

Blessings,

Malinda

>

> Yesterday I was spending time with my nada. We were at a gift

shop

> and their was a small pillow that said something to the effect, "

All

> that I love about my mother is everything she is about. " My nada

saw,

> showed me and began crying. I don't even know why she was crying. I

> don't if I was suppose to love her for all she was about. If that

is

> how she loved her mother, because she adored her mother and has

> repeated me to since I was old enough to understand how she valued

> her mother. She also add repeatedly the world would be a better

> place, if we all just loved and took care of our mothers. Which

> eventually expanded to made up stories about people taking care of

> their mothers.

> It became an obession with her, then the emotional black mailing

> started with my daughter and stories about grandchildren and

> grandparents...this was when my daughter was an adult.

>

> I think to myself, she has such a false sense of who she is and

> what her life has been, at least to me. I hate it, yet it is her

> reality. I have tried making her see my feelings and side. Only

when

> it seems to be benefiting nada, does she accept those feelings.

>

> So I allow her to maintain her fantasy about her life, since I

am

> powerless to change her. I put up boundaries when she becomes what

I

> call crazy and know that I am trying to lead a more healthier

> lifestyle. Sometimes it is a moment at a time.

>

> Thanks for listening,

> Malinda

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Malinda, for your understanding and comforting words; and

all of you for the affirmation and support. Thank you also to the

person, CARLA I think, who reposted my first post on Saturday, that

was very thoughful of you, thanks--I had not figured out the system

with the threads yet and I posted under a different thread.

I am reading and feeling pain but not caused by any of you--it's an

echo pain, pain of memory. I am feeling a bit overwhelmed because so

many of these experiences you all relate are so recognizable, it's

like a jigsawpuzzle where a very important central piece was missing

all the time, during the three pervious years of therapy even, and

now--through reading and browsing about the BP disorder on the net

and stumbling on this forum (never felt so lucky about stumbling!) it

seems to fall into its place. I feel grateful for your support and

presence.

One of the things that I've always felt especially ashamed of is that

the abuse went on for such a long time, way into adolescence and

early adulthood. And I don't mean the occasional abuse which I now

and then still can't avoid (I still have relatively much contact with

my mother, father, sister a.s.o.), but the abuse on a daily basis. I

lived at home till I was 25, my mother is also physically weak and

I/she made me her nurse; while my father expected me to be the

housemaid, so I indeed took it all on me the way I'd done that since

I was an eight year old when my mother had her first prolonged

depressive episode. I was, thank God, successful in my studies and

felt like two totally different selves: the one outside and the one

inside the house. I've always felt shame because I TOTALLY LET

MYSELF, I let myself be scolded, insulted, humiliated, beaten-- and I

feel shame now because I still am affected so strongly by all this,

while the people in my environment, well meaning people, always tell

me to " move on with my own life " , forget about the past, leave the

past the past. And I can't. But I see in your posts that you also,

like me, almost on a daily basis, are still struggling with

this " legacy " ... that helps and make me feel somewhat less ashamed

about it. I think people whose parents were not mentally ill cannot

grasp the IMPACT these people can have on someone, esp. their

children, from the first day on...

With sympathy,

Katrina

> >

> > Hi all,

> > I've been reading the posts under the topic " Nada's sense of

self "

> > and they creep me out, I have to be honest. They are so

confronting

> > and recognizable. My mother, wo has not been diagnosed with BPD

or

> > with any other mental illness (because she refuses any treatment)

> but

> > shares SO many characteristics with the " profile " (and I share SO

> > many of the experiences you've all made), alternatingly wanted

and

> in

> > a way wants us to be grown-ups and small children -- depending on

> > what she needed or needs more at a certain moment in time and in

a

> > certain mood. The image with the dolls is striking too, I have

> often

> > thought " it is as if she has some kind of pre-fixed image of us,

> her

> > two daughters in her mind, and if we do not respond to these ---

o

> > my! One of the " topics " in our relationship that demonstrate this

> > best is the HAIR-ISSUE, that only emerged when I was already an

> > adolescent. Before she'd always been OK with my long hair, but

then

> > all of a sudden, after I came back from an exchange in Germany

and

> > had not lived in my parents' house for some months, it was like

she

> > urgently needed to punish me. She started to insult me and

> humiliate

> > me in every possible way related to my looks (I'd gained weight,

> she

> > said; I'd become less handsome a.s.o.) and mainly the hair. She

> made

> > comparisons with " madwomen " (she!!), " wild people from the

forest " ,

> > and most humiliating of all with a prostitute (I try to translate

> the

> > names she called me into English, sorry if the nuances get lost).

I

> > tried to stick to my long hair, since I loved it and it was

> > objectively beautiful. She could not take it any longer and one

day

> > she just took scissors and cut it. I was terrified because with

> > scissors one can be dangerous, and my mother with scissors and in

> > rage is a VERY dangerous combination. I hate myself for not

having

> > resisted more, but as I say, I was so scared and ever since I was

a

> > child I reacted to her physical aggressions with paralysis. It is

> > still one of the most painful scenes and it was traumatic, every

> time

> > again when I had to go to the hairdresser or even wash or comb my

> > hair I lived through this moment of deepest humiliation again. It

> > felt like a vicious violence, a violation. One day, many years

> later,

> > my grandmother had died and we drove back home from the funeral.

My

> > hair grew long again, as it is today and I think always will be.

My

> > mother had an " almost monologue " in the car, about death and how

> > funerals should be and what her funeral should look like

(something

> I

> > can't remember not having known...) and then she said, God, I

could

> > not believe what she said: she actually turned to me and said to

me

> > and it was really so out of place for so many reasons: " Yes, and

if

> > you die, I can finally cut your hair. " If I write it down I still

> > feel a knot in my stomach and I almost think I shouldn't write it

> > down, it is so shameful and maybe I hurt other people's feelings,

> > bring back your memories... but on the other hand, I would like

to

> > hear -- how should I see this? Is this indeed an extreme example

of

> > the issue we were discussing, the image BPD's seem to have of

other

> > people and how they go about it if reality does not meet this

> image?

> > Or if the child, no longer a helpless child with ribbons in her

> hair,

> > refuses to be a puppet on a string or a doll from a catalogue any

> > longer?

> > x

> > Katrina

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Katrina,

I appreciate your thanks. It looks like that whomever puts the digest e-mails

together did

it for you too. Sometimes when new people post their first inroduction into an

existing

thread it can get lost and I did not want that to happen to you. It is

gratifying to know that

someone is really paying attention to this. Perhaps ? The members here are

pretty

attentive to and I can see where quite a few responded to your initial post.

I am curious. You said that you had to translate some names into English.

Where are you

from?

Carla

> > >

> > > Hi all,

> > > I've been reading the posts under the topic " Nada's sense of

> self "

> > > and they creep me out, I have to be honest. They are so

> confronting

> > > and recognizable. My mother, wo has not been diagnosed with BPD

> or

> > > with any other mental illness (because she refuses any treatment)

> > but

> > > shares SO many characteristics with the " profile " (and I share SO

> > > many of the experiences you've all made), alternatingly wanted

> and

> > in

> > > a way wants us to be grown-ups and small children -- depending on

> > > what she needed or needs more at a certain moment in time and in

> a

> > > certain mood. The image with the dolls is striking too, I have

> > often

> > > thought " it is as if she has some kind of pre-fixed image of us,

> > her

> > > two daughters in her mind, and if we do not respond to these ---

> o

> > > my! One of the " topics " in our relationship that demonstrate this

> > > best is the HAIR-ISSUE, that only emerged when I was already an

> > > adolescent. Before she'd always been OK with my long hair, but

> then

> > > all of a sudden, after I came back from an exchange in Germany

> and

> > > had not lived in my parents' house for some months, it was like

> she

> > > urgently needed to punish me. She started to insult me and

> > humiliate

> > > me in every possible way related to my looks (I'd gained weight,

> > she

> > > said; I'd become less handsome a.s.o.) and mainly the hair. She

> > made

> > > comparisons with " madwomen " (she!!), " wild people from the

> forest " ,

> > > and most humiliating of all with a prostitute (I try to translate

> > the

> > > names she called me into English, sorry if the nuances get lost).

> I

> > > tried to stick to my long hair, since I loved it and it was

> > > objectively beautiful. She could not take it any longer and one

> day

> > > she just took scissors and cut it. I was terrified because with

> > > scissors one can be dangerous, and my mother with scissors and in

> > > rage is a VERY dangerous combination. I hate myself for not

> having

> > > resisted more, but as I say, I was so scared and ever since I was

> a

> > > child I reacted to her physical aggressions with paralysis. It is

> > > still one of the most painful scenes and it was traumatic, every

> > time

> > > again when I had to go to the hairdresser or even wash or comb my

> > > hair I lived through this moment of deepest humiliation again. It

> > > felt like a vicious violence, a violation. One day, many years

> > later,

> > > my grandmother had died and we drove back home from the funeral.

> My

> > > hair grew long again, as it is today and I think always will be.

> My

> > > mother had an " almost monologue " in the car, about death and how

> > > funerals should be and what her funeral should look like

> (something

> > I

> > > can't remember not having known...) and then she said, God, I

> could

> > > not believe what she said: she actually turned to me and said to

> me

> > > and it was really so out of place for so many reasons: " Yes, and

> if

> > > you die, I can finally cut your hair. " If I write it down I still

> > > feel a knot in my stomach and I almost think I shouldn't write it

> > > down, it is so shameful and maybe I hurt other people's feelings,

> > > bring back your memories... but on the other hand, I would like

> to

> > > hear -- how should I see this? Is this indeed an extreme example

> of

> > > the issue we were discussing, the image BPD's seem to have of

> other

> > > people and how they go about it if reality does not meet this

> > image?

> > > Or if the child, no longer a helpless child with ribbons in her

> > hair,

> > > refuses to be a puppet on a string or a doll from a catalogue any

> > > longer?

> > > x

> > > Katrina

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Carla, and all,

I'm from Belgium, Europe; I live in the northern part of that small

country, close to Antwerp. My mother tongue is thus Flemish... are

most of you from US? Or is this a very international forum? It's the

great thing about the internet, the world becomes smaller everyday.

And a great thing in the U.S. is, that, in my experience, discussing

mental illness and its impact is less a taboo than here in Europe. In

2001 and 2002 I was living and studying in the U.S. and a dear friend

there gently pushed me to talk to a psychotherapist for the first

time, which was such wise advice. People here would be generally very

shy to for example admit they are in therapy, and be less open about

all kinds of issues. So I appreciate this openness!

Best wishes

Katrina

> > > >

> > > > Hi all,

> > > > I've been reading the posts under the topic " Nada's sense of

> > self "

> > > > and they creep me out, I have to be honest. They are so

> > confronting

> > > > and recognizable. My mother, wo has not been diagnosed with

BPD

> > or

> > > > with any other mental illness (because she refuses any

treatment)

> > > but

> > > > shares SO many characteristics with the " profile " (and I

share SO

> > > > many of the experiences you've all made), alternatingly

wanted

> > and

> > > in

> > > > a way wants us to be grown-ups and small children --

depending on

> > > > what she needed or needs more at a certain moment in time and

in

> > a

> > > > certain mood. The image with the dolls is striking too, I

have

> > > often

> > > > thought " it is as if she has some kind of pre-fixed image of

us,

> > > her

> > > > two daughters in her mind, and if we do not respond to these -

--

> > o

> > > > my! One of the " topics " in our relationship that demonstrate

this

> > > > best is the HAIR-ISSUE, that only emerged when I was already

an

> > > > adolescent. Before she'd always been OK with my long hair,

but

> > then

> > > > all of a sudden, after I came back from an exchange in

Germany

> > and

> > > > had not lived in my parents' house for some months, it was

like

> > she

> > > > urgently needed to punish me. She started to insult me and

> > > humiliate

> > > > me in every possible way related to my looks (I'd gained

weight,

> > > she

> > > > said; I'd become less handsome a.s.o.) and mainly the hair.

She

> > > made

> > > > comparisons with " madwomen " (she!!), " wild people from the

> > forest " ,

> > > > and most humiliating of all with a prostitute (I try to

translate

> > > the

> > > > names she called me into English, sorry if the nuances get

lost).

> > I

> > > > tried to stick to my long hair, since I loved it and it was

> > > > objectively beautiful. She could not take it any longer and

one

> > day

> > > > she just took scissors and cut it. I was terrified because

with

> > > > scissors one can be dangerous, and my mother with scissors

and in

> > > > rage is a VERY dangerous combination. I hate myself for not

> > having

> > > > resisted more, but as I say, I was so scared and ever since I

was

> > a

> > > > child I reacted to her physical aggressions with paralysis.

It is

> > > > still one of the most painful scenes and it was traumatic,

every

> > > time

> > > > again when I had to go to the hairdresser or even wash or

comb my

> > > > hair I lived through this moment of deepest humiliation

again. It

> > > > felt like a vicious violence, a violation. One day, many

years

> > > later,

> > > > my grandmother had died and we drove back home from the

funeral.

> > My

> > > > hair grew long again, as it is today and I think always will

be.

> > My

> > > > mother had an " almost monologue " in the car, about death and

how

> > > > funerals should be and what her funeral should look like

> > (something

> > > I

> > > > can't remember not having known...) and then she said, God, I

> > could

> > > > not believe what she said: she actually turned to me and said

to

> > me

> > > > and it was really so out of place for so many reasons: " Yes,

and

> > if

> > > > you die, I can finally cut your hair. " If I write it down I

still

> > > > feel a knot in my stomach and I almost think I shouldn't

write it

> > > > down, it is so shameful and maybe I hurt other people's

feelings,

> > > > bring back your memories... but on the other hand, I would

like

> > to

> > > > hear -- how should I see this? Is this indeed an extreme

example

> > of

> > > > the issue we were discussing, the image BPD's seem to have of

> > other

> > > > people and how they go about it if reality does not meet this

> > > image?

> > > > Or if the child, no longer a helpless child with ribbons in

her

> > > hair,

> > > > refuses to be a puppet on a string or a doll from a catalogue

any

> > > > longer?

> > > > x

> > > > Katrina

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, that is one of the sickest things I've ever heard, even in death

her ego is threatened by you. That would justify permanent NC, really,

that a mother sees the death of her child not as a devastating and

traumatic event, but instead a circumstance in which she can finally

triumph over an aspect of you that threatens her. Sick, sick, sick. I

am so sorry, there are not words to articulate how deeply offensive

and twisted that statement is and how hurtful it must have been. A

will won't do much good in this instance because they are attended to

a while after the death, what you need is firm instructions with your

spouse that your mother isn't allowed around you were you to pass

away. A restraining order in the present would be understandable. My

heart just aches for you, what a completely twisted human being.

[Guest guest]

Katrina,

Yes many are from the US and some Canadians too I have noticed. I know where

Belgium

is. I lived in Germany for about two and a half years when I was in the Army.

I never

made it there but did travel a little in Germany and I got married in Denmark.

Carla

-- In WTOAdultChildren1 , " katrina.berries "

wrote:

>

> Carla, and all,

> I'm from Belgium, Europe; I live in the northern part of that small

> country, close to Antwerp. My mother tongue is thus Flemish... are

> most of you from US? Or is this a very international forum? It's the

> great thing about the internet, the world becomes smaller everyday.

> And a great thing in the U.S. is, that, in my experience, discussing

> mental illness and its impact is less a taboo than here in Europe. In

> 2001 and 2002 I was living and studying in the U.S. and a dear friend

> there gently pushed me to talk to a psychotherapist for the first

> time, which was such wise advice. People here would be generally very

> shy to for example admit they are in therapy, and be less open about

> all kinds of issues. So I appreciate this openness!

> Best wishes

> Katrina

>

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi all,

> > > > > I've been reading the posts under the topic " Nada's sense of

> > > self "

> > > > > and they creep me out, I have to be honest. They are so

> > > confronting

> > > > > and recognizable. My mother, wo has not been diagnosed with

> BPD

> > > or

> > > > > with any other mental illness (because she refuses any

> treatment)

> > > > but

> > > > > shares SO many characteristics with the " profile " (and I

> share SO

> > > > > many of the experiences you've all made), alternatingly

> wanted

> > > and

> > > > in

> > > > > a way wants us to be grown-ups and small children --

> depending on

> > > > > what she needed or needs more at a certain moment in time and

> in

> > > a

> > > > > certain mood. The image with the dolls is striking too, I

> have

> > > > often

> > > > > thought " it is as if she has some kind of pre-fixed image of

> us,

> > > > her

> > > > > two daughters in her mind, and if we do not respond to these -

> --

> > > o

> > > > > my! One of the " topics " in our relationship that demonstrate

> this

> > > > > best is the HAIR-ISSUE, that only emerged when I was already

> an

> > > > > adolescent. Before she'd always been OK with my long hair,

> but

> > > then

> > > > > all of a sudden, after I came back from an exchange in

> Germany

> > > and

> > > > > had not lived in my parents' house for some months, it was

> like

> > > she

> > > > > urgently needed to punish me. She started to insult me and

> > > > humiliate

> > > > > me in every possible way related to my looks (I'd gained

> weight,

> > > > she

> > > > > said; I'd become less handsome a.s.o.) and mainly the hair.

> She

> > > > made

> > > > > comparisons with " madwomen " (she!!), " wild people from the

> > > forest " ,

> > > > > and most humiliating of all with a prostitute (I try to

> translate

> > > > the

> > > > > names she called me into English, sorry if the nuances get

> lost).

> > > I

> > > > > tried to stick to my long hair, since I loved it and it was

> > > > > objectively beautiful. She could not take it any longer and

> one

> > > day

> > > > > she just took scissors and cut it. I was terrified because

> with

> > > > > scissors one can be dangerous, and my mother with scissors

> and in

> > > > > rage is a VERY dangerous combination. I hate myself for not

> > > having

> > > > > resisted more, but as I say, I was so scared and ever since I

> was

> > > a

> > > > > child I reacted to her physical aggressions with paralysis.

> It is

> > > > > still one of the most painful scenes and it was traumatic,

> every

> > > > time

> > > > > again when I had to go to the hairdresser or even wash or

> comb my

> > > > > hair I lived through this moment of deepest humiliation

> again. It

> > > > > felt like a vicious violence, a violation. One day, many

> years

> > > > later,

> > > > > my grandmother had died and we drove back home from the

> funeral.

> > > My

> > > > > hair grew long again, as it is today and I think always will

> be.

> > > My

> > > > > mother had an " almost monologue " in the car, about death and

> how

> > > > > funerals should be and what her funeral should look like

> > > (something

> > > > I

> > > > > can't remember not having known...) and then she said, God, I

> > > could

> > > > > not believe what she said: she actually turned to me and said

> to

> > > me

> > > > > and it was really so out of place for so many reasons: " Yes,

> and

> > > if

> > > > > you die, I can finally cut your hair. " If I write it down I

> still

> > > > > feel a knot in my stomach and I almost think I shouldn't

> write it

> > > > > down, it is so shameful and maybe I hurt other people's

> feelings,

> > > > > bring back your memories... but on the other hand, I would

> like

> > > to

> > > > > hear -- how should I see this? Is this indeed an extreme

> example

> > > of

> > > > > the issue we were discussing, the image BPD's seem to have of

> > > other

> > > > > people and how they go about it if reality does not meet this

> > > > image?

> > > > > Or if the child, no longer a helpless child with ribbons in

> her

> > > > hair,

> > > > > refuses to be a puppet on a string or a doll from a catalogue

> any

> > > > > longer?

> > > > > x

> > > > > Katrina

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I am grateful for what you have shared here, Katrina, and welcome to

the board. I really hate it when people make those uninformed

judgemental statements like what you were talking about, " move on with

your life " and all that. I have had people tell me " stop being such a

push-over " , " get pissed, it's good for you " , etc, and you know, it's

bad enough suffering the abuse we do but then when people say those

things it compounds it, for me because it makes me feel ashamed of how

I became in response to it, when really, it is a miracle that I am not

dead or in jail. I, and my fleas, am just going to have to be good

enough for me today, and for anyone else that enters my life, and if

they do not like me the way I am, with my scars, they can get bent,

and I am about at the point of stating this to anyone who comes down

on me with that crap anymore.

[Guest guest]

OMG, I just want to slap the ever loving crap out of your mother. I am not a

violent person but I will make an exception for this waste of air.

This is an extreme example in my book. I am so sorry if this offends you but I

am horrified that anyone would do that to their child. You were right to not

react when she had the scissors, she had NO (ZERO!!) business cutting your hair

if you did not want it to be cut. That is part of your identity, your " self " ,

for her to have grabbed a pair of sissors and just hacked off your hair is

monsterous. And those comments. If she ever makes a statement about dutting your

hair after you are dead again please, please, please turn to her and say, " So it

is your position that it is acceptable to VIOLATE the dead? " Put it just like

that. Don't sugar coat it, put it bluntly and then say nothing. Don't respond

even if she rages. If she makes a move towards you, back up. Don't let her near

you. The point is made. Take control back and if she gets out of hand call the

cops and report her. The more you pull away from her the more desparate she will

be to get you back.

Don't take the bait.

You have my sympathies, honey.

Be strong

Re: Nada's sense of self

Hi all,

I've been reading the posts under the topic " Nada's sense of self "

and they creep me out, I have to be honest. They are so confronting

and recognizable. My mother, wo has not been diagnosed with BPD or

with any other mental illness (because she refuses any treatment) but

shares SO many characteristics with the " profile " (and I share SO

many of the experiences you've all made), alternatingly wanted and in

a way wants us to be grown-ups and small children -- depending on

what she needed or needs more at a certain moment in time and in a

certain mood. The image with the dolls is striking too, I have often

thought " it is as if she has some kind of pre-fixed image of us, her

two daughters in her mind, and if we do not respond to these --- o

my! One of the " topics " in our relationship that demonstrate this

best is the HAIR-ISSUE, that only emerged when I was already an

adolescent. Before she'd always been OK with my long hair, but then

all of a sudden, after I came back from an exchange in Germany and

had not lived in my parents' house for some months, it was like she

urgently needed to punish me. She started to insult me and humiliate

me in every possible way related to my looks (I'd gained weight, she

said; I'd become less handsome a.s.o.) and mainly the hair.. She made

comparisons with " madwomen " (she!!), " wild people from the forest " ,

and most humiliating of all with a prostitute (I try to translate the

names she called me into English, sorry if the nuances get lost). I

tried to stick to my long hair, since I loved it and it was

objectively beautiful. She could not take it any longer and one day

she just took scissors and cut it. I was terrified because with

scissors one can be dangerous, and my mother with scissors and in

rage is a VERY dangerous combination. I hate myself for not having

resisted more, but as I say, I was so scared and ever since I was a

child I reacted to her physical aggressions with paralysis. It is

still one of the most painful scenes and it was traumatic, every time

again when I had to go to the hairdresser or even wash or comb my

hair I lived through this moment of deepest humiliation again. It

felt like a vicious violence, a violation. One day, many years later,

my grandmother had died and we drove back home from the funeral. My

hair grew long again, as it is today and I think always will be. My

mother had an " almost monologue " in the car, about death and how

funerals should be and what her funeral should look like (something I

can't remember not having known...) and then she said, God, I could

not believe what she said: she actually turned to me and said to me

and it was really so out of place for so many reasons: " Yes, and if

you die, I can finally cut your hair. " If I write it down I still

feel a knot in my stomach and I almost think I shouldn't write it

down, it is so shameful and maybe I hurt other people's feelings,

bring back your memories... but on the other hand, I would like to

hear -- how should I see this? Is this indeed an extreme example of

the issue we were discussing, the image BPD's seem to have of other

people and how they go about it if reality does not meet this image?

Or if the child, no longer a helpless child with ribbons in her hair,

refuses to be a puppet on a string or a doll from a catalogue any

longer?

x

Katrina

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[Guest guest]

It is my opinion that we each will let go of the past when it no longer has

meaning for us. When it no longer makes a difference in how we see ourselves.

Don't feel ashamed that you cannot let some of the episodes go, there is a

reason you cannot move on. You haven't made sense of it yet, or you haven't

reconciled yourself that it will never make sense and release its hold on you.

Believe me we understand that. Keep working on it and you will get there.

Be strong

Re: Nada's sense of self

Thank you, Malinda, for your understanding and comforting words; and

all of you for the affirmation and support. Thank you also to the

person, CARLA I think, who reposted my first post on Saturday, that

was very thoughful of you, thanks--I had not figured out the system

with the threads yet and I posted under a different thread.

I am reading and feeling pain but not caused by any of you--it's an

echo pain, pain of memory. I am feeling a bit overwhelmed because so

many of these experiences you all relate are so recognizable, it's

like a jigsawpuzzle where a very important central piece was missing

all the time, during the three pervious years of therapy even, and

now--through reading and browsing about the BP disorder on the net

and stumbling on this forum (never felt so lucky about stumbling!) it

seems to fall into its place. I feel grateful for your support and

presence.

One of the things that I've always felt especially ashamed of is that

the abuse went on for such a long time, way into adolescence and

early adulthood. And I don't mean the occasional abuse which I now

and then still can't avoid (I still have relatively much contact with

my mother, father, sister a.s.o.), but the abuse on a daily basis. I

lived at home till I was 25, my mother is also physically weak and

I/she made me her nurse; while my father expected me to be the

housemaid, so I indeed took it all on me the way I'd done that since

I was an eight year old when my mother had her first prolonged

depressive episode. I was, thank God, successful in my studies and

felt like two totally different selves: the one outside and the one

inside the house. I've always felt shame because I TOTALLY LET

MYSELF, I let myself be scolded, insulted, humiliated, beaten-- and I

feel shame now because I still am affected so strongly by all this,

while the people in my environment, well meaning people, always tell

me to " move on with my own life " , forget about the past, leave the

past the past. And I can't. But I see in your posts that you also,

like me, almost on a daily basis, are still struggling with

this " legacy " ... that helps and make me feel somewhat less ashamed

about it. I think people whose parents were not mentally ill cannot

grasp the IMPACT these people can have on someone, esp. their

children, from the first day on...

With sympathy,

Katrina

> >

> > Hi all,

> > I've been reading the posts under the topic " Nada's sense of

self "

> > and they creep me out, I have to be honest. They are so

confronting

> > and recognizable. My mother, wo has not been diagnosed with BPD

or

> > with any other mental illness (because she refuses any treatment)

> but

> > shares SO many characteristics with the " profile " (and I share SO

> > many of the experiences you've all made), alternatingly wanted

and

> in

> > a way wants us to be grown-ups and small children -- depending on

> > what she needed or needs more at a certain moment in time and in

a

> > certain mood. The image with the dolls is striking too, I have

> often

> > thought " it is as if she has some kind of pre-fixed image of us,

> her

> > two daughters in her mind, and if we do not respond to these ---

o

> > my! One of the " topics " in our relationship that demonstrate this

> > best is the HAIR-ISSUE, that only emerged when I was already an

> > adolescent. Before she'd always been OK with my long hair, but

then

> > all of a sudden, after I came back from an exchange in Germany

and

> > had not lived in my parents' house for some months, it was like

she

> > urgently needed to punish me. She started to insult me and

> humiliate

> > me in every possible way related to my looks (I'd gained weight,

> she

> > said; I'd become less handsome a.s.o.) and mainly the hair. She

> made

> > comparisons with " madwomen " (she!!), " wild people from the

forest " ,

> > and most humiliating of all with a prostitute (I try to translate

> the

> > names she called me into English, sorry if the nuances get lost).

I

> > tried to stick to my long hair, since I loved it and it was

> > objectively beautiful. She could not take it any longer and one

day

> > she just took scissors and cut it. I was terrified because with

> > scissors one can be dangerous, and my mother with scissors and in

> > rage is a VERY dangerous combination. I hate myself for not

having

> > resisted more, but as I say, I was so scared and ever since I was

a

> > child I reacted to her physical aggressions with paralysis. It is

> > still one of the most painful scenes and it was traumatic, every

> time

> > again when I had to go to the hairdresser or even wash or comb my

> > hair I lived through this moment of deepest humiliation again. It

> > felt like a vicious violence, a violation. One day, many years

> later,

> > my grandmother had died and we drove back home from the funeral.

My

> > hair grew long again, as it is today and I think always will be.

My

> > mother had an " almost monologue " in the car, about death and how

> > funerals should be and what her funeral should look like

(something

> I

> > can't remember not having known...) and then she said, God, I

could

> > not believe what she said: she actually turned to me and said to

me

> > and it was really so out of place for so many reasons: " Yes, and

if

> > you die, I can finally cut your hair. " If I write it down I still

> > feel a knot in my stomach and I almost think I shouldn't write it

> > down, it is so shameful and maybe I hurt other people's feelings,

> > bring back your memories... but on the other hand, I would like

to

> > hear -- how should I see this? Is this indeed an extreme example

of

> > the issue we were discussing, the image BPD's seem to have of

other

> > people and how they go about it if reality does not meet this

> image?

> > Or if the child, no longer a helpless child with ribbons in her

> hair,

> > refuses to be a puppet on a string or a doll from a catalogue any

> > longer?

> > x

> > Katrina

> >

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs