Re: ADHD now considered Spectrum

[Guest guest]

2008/11/30 :

> And the DSM-V is going to look VERY different.

>

> http://ednews.org/articles/31246/1/Does-my-child-really-have-

> ADHD/Page1.html

http://tinyurl.com/6ltmeb

[Guest guest]

Interesting article. So just to be clear on something:

From the article...

" Basically, disorders overlap one another because when brain

functioning is impaired through illness or injury, there is seldom

discrete impairment. Rather, impairment in one area or function of the

brain impacts other areas and functions, so that the behavioral,

cognitive, social and emotional manifestations of various brain

problems overlap one another. In the end, it is, I think, unlikely

that we will be able to make discrete differentiation among all these

disorders, but rather that they will have to be formulated as points

along continuous continuums with fuzzy and overlapping boundaries.

What may prove useful is weighing different risk factors that

contribute to different manifestations, and attempting to control or

or modulate those. In short, we simply aren't very good at

diagnosis. But, because ADHD is fundamentally a developmental disorder

of impaired executive functions an as executive functions cross the

boundaries of many disorders due to impairment in various brain

structures involved in executive functioning, ADHD inherently cuts

across other disorder that involve the same impaired executive

functions. This means that ADHD is a FOUNDATIONAL DISORDER and that

it by its very nature increases the risk for the diagnosis of other

disorders that also result from impaired executive functions. "

Is the above saying that aspergers could fall under a list of ADHD

disorders, rather than be considered part of the autistic

spectrum...or what? Can anybody give a short overview of what this

is suggesting here? It's just a detail that's intrigued me. I found

the article overall hard to read (long, never-ending sentences, errors

and such all over), so I'm requesting some enlightenment, if

possible.

a

> The world is a-changin' in perceptions with those high-fangled brain

> scanner thingies....

>

> And the DSM-V is going to look VERY different.

>

> http://ednews.org/articles/31246/1/Does-my-child-really-have-

> ADHD/Page1.html

>

> S.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

>

> Is the above saying that aspergers could fall under a list of ADHD

> disorders, rather than be considered part of the autistic

> spectrum...or what?

When my son was around 12 years old, he showed some symptoms of what we

thought might be ADHD. Actually, he'd shown those symptoms long before that,

but they really became a problem for him in Middle School. He went through

different tests at a place, I don't even remember the name of, but

ultimately it was decided that he did not have ADHD. I wanted to ask, but

didn't dare out of fear of being ridiculed by my husband, his dad, if our

son could be 'a little autistic', since I'd not heard of Asperger's back

then. Now I know I should've asked and that I was probably right.

D.

[Guest guest]

> When my son was around 12 years old, he showed some symptoms of what

> we

> thought might be ADHD. Actually, he'd shown those symptoms long

> before that,

> but they really became a problem for him in Middle School. He went

> through

> different tests at a place, I don't even remember the name of, but

> ultimately it was decided that he did not have ADHD.

With me, I still veer towards aspergers but some ADHD-like particulars

stand out. My sisters especially seem more ADHD than me going by what

I've read, especially in that article, and the emotional quotient.

My mother would " threaten " one of my sisters with being

institutionalized when she was at the height of her teenage troubled

years, as she'd have many emotional outbursts (more than usual, as

she'd displayed these tantrums since she was a young age) and our

parents did not know how to handle it. They couldn't deal with

anything " emotional " really: Dad could threaten violence or turn

violent if the emotion being displayed wasn't a happy or quietly sad

one, and mom would be 'cold' towards it, and seemed oblivious to signs

of quiet sadness. The threat was never carried out (what would their

friend's think?) and none of us were ever tested for anything. My mom

wasn't the most observant when it came to things that might have

needed some medical attention, such as when this same sister of mine

was going through the onset of juvenile diabetes. She wasted away and

almost died.

From what I've seen and what I've learned, my sister Judy appears

more ADHD. My oldest sister is more like me in a lot of ways, quieter

and she can relate to the autistic side of things (we've discussed

this). She also has some very obvious OCD issues. Myself, I differ

from both of them, in that I don't have their extreme ADHD and OCD

traits. I was the " weird " one in the family.

> I wanted to ask, but

> didn't dare out of fear of being ridiculed by my husband, his dad,

> if our

> son could be 'a little autistic', since I'd not heard of Asperger's

> back

> then. Now I know I should've asked and that I was probably right.

>

> D.

When I was in my early 20's an artist I knew, who rented out space at

my boss's store, said his son was autistic. I had told him I thought

I was a " little autistic " , and I didn't know of AS or the spectrum

either. The response I got was that there was " no way " , but he didn't

know me well and I couldn't describe the finer points of why I thought

this.

a

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> The world is a-changin' in perceptions with those high-fangled brain

> scanner thingies....

>

> And the DSM-V is going to look VERY different.

>

> http://ednews.org/articles/31246/1/Does-my-child-really-have-

> ADHD/Page1.html

Whoa!

This looks dodgy.

The author is writing single issue and has vested interests, it is NOT

independent research and seems out of their experience.

I hear a quacking sound. Bill! Help out, I don't want to unfairly take

the person apart.

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

>

> With me, I still veer towards aspergers but some ADHD-like particulars

> stand out. My sisters especially seem more ADHD than me going by what

> I've read, especially in that article, and the emotional quotient.

> My mother would " threaten " one of my sisters with being

> institutionalized when she was at the height of her teenage troubled

> years, as she'd have many emotional outbursts (more than usual, as

> she'd displayed these tantrums since she was a young age) and our

> parents did not know how to handle it. They couldn't deal with

> anything " emotional " really:

They sound like my parents.

My mom

> wasn't the most observant when it came to things that might have

> needed some medical attention, such as when this same sister of mine

> was going through the onset of juvenile diabetes. She wasted away and

> almost died.

That's terrible.

> From what I've seen and what I've learned, my sister Judy appears

> more ADHD. My oldest sister is more like me in a lot of ways, quieter

> and she can relate to the autistic side of things (we've discussed

> this). She also has some very obvious OCD issues.

I have some mild OCD things, like when I fold the paper to do a cross word

puzzle, the sides better line up exactly or I'll cut them so they do.

I've started doing this just fairly recently, though.

Myself, I differ

> from both of them, in that I don't have their extreme ADHD and OCD

> traits. I was the " weird " one in the family.

Me too.

D.

[Guest guest]

With my son, when he was 6, his first diagnosis was inattentive ADD, followed by

OCD, and then psychotic disorder NOS (whatever he imagined triggered his senses,

and he really experienced it, without medication to tone it down). He was

finally recognized as Aspergers at age 13... although ironically his first grade

teacher had called it within the first week of school, and I was inclined to

agree with her. It took doctors 7 more years to figure him out. He still takes

meds to help with concentration, to control his OCD self-injury impulses, and to

tone down the sensory suggestibility.

 

When I teach kids with ADHD and/or OCD, they present very similarly to ASD,

although there is some difference in response to social motivators... which is a

key external measure of where on the Spectrum one is.

 

The article didn't surprise me at all.

 

 

Sarabia

" I won't do all the neurotypicals want, but you have to go halfway... You can't

degeekify the geeks, but you

can be a polite geek. " -- Temple Grandin

 

" Cherish forever what makes you unique, because you're really a yawn if it

goes. " -- Bette Midler

[Guest guest]

,

 

In AS, peole typically have difficulty with both social cues and with

interpreting facial emotion.  I have had both difficulties, and still have to

work at both things.  I have had a number of ADHD students who are great at both

of these things!  They play people for excitement.  Of course, there are

different ways that ADHD can present, too..  There are some ADHD folk who do

seem a bit spectrumy  to me.

 

Subject: Re: ADHD now considered Spectrum

To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 6:29 AM

With my son, when he was 6, his first diagnosis was inattentive ADD, followed by

OCD, and then psychotic disorder NOS (whatever he imagined triggered his senses,

and he really experienced it, without medication to tone it down). He was

finally recognized as Aspergers at age 13... although ironically his first grade

teacher had called it within the first week of school, and I was inclined to

agree with her. It took doctors 7 more years to figure him out. He still takes

meds to help with concentration, to control his OCD self-injury impulses, and to

tone down the sensory suggestibility.

 

When I teach kids with ADHD and/or OCD, they present very similarly to ASD,

although there is some difference in response to social motivators.. . which

is a key external measure of where on the Spectrum one is.

 

The article didn't surprise me at all.

 

 

Sarabia

" I won't do all the neurotypicals want, but you have to go halfway... You can't

degeekify the geeks, but you

can be a polite geek. " -- Temple Grandin

 

" Cherish forever what makes you unique, because you're really a yawn if it

goes. " -- Bette Midler

[Guest guest]

- the point of the article was that while the external behaviors are

often very different between the different current disorder designations, the

internal mechanisms of the brain can be very similar, and they noted related

issues.

 

I have always wondered at the serious differences between ADHDers I've had...

some are truly social - these are usually the ones who predominantly have the

fidgets and difficulty concentrating, but are not that " impulsive; " there are

many others whose " manipulative " (as defined by others) behavior I have

recognized as impulsivity combined with lack of understanding about the

boundaries, until they have directly experienced the consequences repeatedly to

be certain of them.  The question is whether the authority figure chooses to

interpret what's happening as " he/she's pushing my buttons, " -- which totally

doesn't work in the long run -- or as repeated questioning by the student of " is

the boundary still there in this situation? how about this one? five minutes

from now? really? "   As in... they don't infer it, or generalize it, based on

SOCIAL CUES OR LANGUAGE, and have to play the real-world physical environment

and experience the real-world

physical consequences to learn it.  After about oh, say, a year in my program

(and a ton of patience...lol), they are usually incredibly well-behaved in my

classroom, and still terrors to their regular ed teachers (now, new because of a

change of grade level).  Of course, every time a new student is added, or a

schedule changes, they have to make sure my rules apply in that situation,

too... but rapid and identical responses on my part to ensure the familiar rules

and consequences are reinforced take care of it. They also are often disliked by

most of their peers, except perhaps one or two who value the entertainment value

of watching a highly suggestible " friend " get into all sorts of trouble.

 

This does NOT make them Aspergers, any more than being Aspergers makes someone

PDD. Based on the research, it's a step further on the Spectrum past AS into the

social realm, still with major social problems based on an inability to

innately, instinctively perceive, define and utilize the social rules

effectively.

 

And every once in a while, one of our students that were originally defined that

second group of ADHDers suddenly shows up with a new diagnosis -- of AS,

PDD-NOS, HFA...

 

I have generally observed that the ones who have the Spectrum diagnosis without

having gone through the ADHD diagnosis first, are the ones who are more internal

and withdrawn. Those who show their confusion by external behavior get the ADHD,

or ODD, or bipolar diagnosis first.  And, I've seen people respond to the " I

don't get it " look from these kids totally different, even though it is the

exact same confused stare, because the prior behavior was quiet (so the kid is

" lazy, " " passive aggressive, " or " unintelligent " ) or was " acting out " (so the

kid is " defiant " ).

 

There is also a very real difference between those " defiant " ones who are

genuinely puzzled by what is happening around them, and the really defiant kids

who have the social savvy, and have learned to play it due to moodiness and/or

home environment influences. There is a steady and well thought out set of

actions that go with their misbehavior, rather than an " ooohhhh... a ruler! 

Whappity, whappity.... " reaction to opportunity.

 

Spectrum also means just that... and AS, PDD, and HFA often have some small

degree of social perception and as kids sometimes will be " normal " in attempts

to socially manipulate from time to time, although in an " immature, "

" obvious, "  and " awkward " way. One of the things, I believe, that prevents

further development of social skills in Spectrum is that these attempts aren't

met at their developmental age level combined with structured communication to

help build student understanding, but instead are severely punished, so that the

Spectrum individual stops exploring and learning in those areas.

 

The difference at the ADHD diagnosis is rather than retreating after those first

few experiences, they continue to act out without learning to refine their

actions from the consequences.

 

Like I said, the study doesn't surprise me at all.

 

)

 

S.

 

 

" I won't do all the neurotypicals want, but you have to go halfway... You can't

degeekify the geeks, but you

can be a polite geek. " -- Temple Grandin

 

" Cherish forever what makes you unique, because you're really a yawn if it

goes. " -- Bette Midler

[Guest guest]

This is interesting stuff. I was thought to be Aspergers for a time

but the dx was changed to ADHD.

Which makes sense to me, and I agree with, although there are a few

traits that have some things in common with Aspergers.

Where I completely come off " Aspie " is my childhood, and what I was

like at a child. But then I had a " social growth spurt " at about 14

(lots of friends, one boyfriend after another, et cetera) and stopped

" looking autistic " . I became hypersocial and hyperverbal.

Yet there are many ways in which I still identify with autistic type

of thinking and being. The obsessiveness over niche topics,

especially.

--

Doing what little one can to increase the general stock of knowledge

is as respectable an object of life, as one can in any likelihood

pursue. -- Darwin

I've seen a look in dogs' eyes, a quickly vanishing look of amazed

contempt, and I am convinced that basically dogs think humans are

nuts. - Steinbeck

[Guest guest]

AF,

 

Could this have something to do with the different societal expectations on

girls and boys?  I have a feeling that these differences in stereotyped gender

roles have a lot to do with the different prevalence rates of dx on women and

men, for varietues of ASD

 

Subject: Re: Re: ADHD now considered Spectrum

To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

Date: Saturday, December 6, 2008, 7:11 PM

This is interesting stuff. I was thought to be Aspergers for a time

but the dx was changed to ADHD.

Which makes sense to me, and I agree with, although there are a few

traits that have some things in common with Aspergers.

Where I completely come off " Aspie " is my childhood, and what I was

like at a child. But then I had a " social growth spurt " at about 14

(lots of friends, one boyfriend after another, et cetera) and stopped

" looking autistic " . I became hypersocial and hyperverbal.

Yet there are many ways in which I still identify with autistic type

of thinking and being. The obsessiveness over niche topics,

especially.

--

Doing what little one can to increase the general stock of knowledge

is as respectable an object of life, as one can in any likelihood

pursue. -- Darwin

I've seen a look in dogs' eyes, a quickly vanishing look of amazed

contempt, and I am convinced that basically dogs think humans are

nuts. - Steinbeck