Guest guest Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 who has hired an asset protection manager or an elder care attorney ? what is the difference? share your wisdom. what have they told you to do? i having a living trust but that just protects you from probate, etc. is your paid off home something that negates you from getting full home care or paid facility? bad enough watching my wife (kay LBD, age 59) decline month by month, week by week, day by day...without going bankrupt also and having nothing to leave my children. gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 We hired an elderlaw attorney. We had no idea how to chose one. My sister was going to take a advice from her hair stylist, who recommended her divorce attorney. Instead, I called our long time insurance agent, who, I figured, had a little more experience with the kind of law we needed someone to be familiar with. It was a smart thing to do. We ended up with a guy who is recognized as one of the top 3 elderlaw attorneys in the state (Minnesota). My recommendation: don't go to your stylist for a recommendation. I have no idea what an asset protection manager is. Sounds like a profession that may have grown out of a CPA or business manager. If that's what it is, I suspect either would be helpful. Maybe both. The attorney could help you draw up the correct legal documents and the asset manager could help you with your finances. One thing I don't think everyone recognizes is that the attorney retains an original of each of those documents for you. (at least mine did) No worries if your original gets lost or destroyed. But someone with an accounting background could be better with the financial specifics. Especially if they also have a current knowledge of available assistance and requirements of that assistance. I would think that these professions would go hand in hand. How about looking for a legal firm that offers financial (asset) planning and protection? A reputable attorney will often do the first consultation for free. Maybe an asset protection manager would do the same thing. Ask both of them to compare what they would do for you to what the other profession would do. I guess my recommendation would be an elderlaw attorney who says " we also have asset protection managers and let me bring one in. " Kathy On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 11:52 AM, gary.s.dale@... < gary.s.dale@...> wrote: > ** > > > who has hired an asset protection manager or an elder care attorney ? what > is the difference? share your wisdom. what have they told you to do? i > having a living trust but that just protects you from probate, etc. is your > paid off home something that negates you from getting full home care or > paid facility? bad enough watching my wife (kay LBD, age 59) decline month > by month, week by week, day by day...without going bankrupt also and having > nothing to leave my children. gary > > > -- Kate Knapp, OIT University of Minnesota " We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented and fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be? Playing small does not serve the world. " - Mandela Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 And, , can I add that you should not be worrying about an inheritance for your children? Especially if they are adults? It's nice to leave something, but not necessary unless the children are minors and funds are needed for their maintenance. (Which often was the case a couple of generations ago, when an inheritance was important.) My guess is that these days, with eldercare costing what it does, most people go through all of their assets and end up receiving some kind of assistance by the time they pass on. With life expectancy what it is, most children of parents considering eldercare alternatives are adults who are able to survive without an inheritance. If your children are indeed adults, why not involve them in your financial planning? Eventually, one of them is likely going to need familiarity with it for POA duties, anyway. If you do this, I'm sure the question of inheritance will come up and you may be surprised at what your adult children will say. I like that bumper sticker that says, " I'm spending my children's inheritance. " Best wishes. Kathy On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 11:52 AM, gary.s.dale@... < gary.s.dale@...> wrote: > ** > > > who has hired an asset protection manager or an elder care attorney ? what > is the difference? share your wisdom. what have they told you to do? i > having a living trust but that just protects you from probate, etc. is your > paid off home something that negates you from getting full home care or > paid facility? bad enough watching my wife (kay LBD, age 59) decline month > by month, week by week, day by day...without going bankrupt also and having > nothing to leave my children. gary > > > -- Kate Knapp, OIT University of Minnesota " We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented and fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be? Playing small does not serve the world. " - Mandela Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Hi , I am sorry you find the need to join our forum, but am glad you found it. People here are very helpful and supportive. I am full time caregiver for my husband Bob 75 who was diagnosed in 2003 with Parkinson's Plus Syndrome, and with Lewy Body Dementia in 2009. I have consulted with two different elder law attorneys over the past few years. The first thing we did in 2003 was to put in place Power of Attorney documents for all financial and health matters, with myself as spouse named as POA for both. The attorneys updated our wills and living trusts while Bob was still competent. Then they advised me that we should transfer all financial accounts into my name, including ownership of Bob's life insurance policy. The reason is that the cost of care is so high that eventually we will need to go on to state Medicaid. When that happens, your state of residence will require that the ill spouse spend down all their assets to $2000.00 or less in assets. You can own one house and have one car when you qualify for Medicaid in our state of Wisconsin. Each state may vary their requirements a little. If your spouse does go on Medicaid, the state has the right to come after your house and assets to recoup the money that they spend on caring for your spouse. Lucky for you, they do not do it until after you die. The well spouse has the right to live in the house until you die, or sell it. But the state does come after your home and assets and your heirs will have to pay the state back from the inheritance you leave to them. The Federal government has a 5 year look back period where they will examine all of your financial accounts and transactions to see if you have given away any assets to anyone other than your spouse. Those assets given or " gifted " to others count against your ill spouse getting Medicaid so do not gift anything to anyone. Do not sign over any property or any money to anyone else or you can not qualify for Medicaid and you will have to care for your wife at home with little or no help from the state or anyone other than family members. This is why you need an Elder Law expert attorney to help you plan for the future. It is very common for nursing home care to cost over 5000 to 10,000 dollars per month for dementia care, so planning ahead is crucial. Even home care is very costly, over $40,000.00 per year. Please do yourself a favor and consult with a reputable, experienced Elder Law expert attorney as soon as possible. Good Luck and Best Wishes, Pat M. 58 Wife/caregiver of Bob 75, dx 2003 PD, LBD 2009 On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 11:52 AM, gary.s.dale@... < gary.s.dale@...> wrote: > ** > > > who has hired an asset protection manager or an elder care attorney ? what > is the difference? share your wisdom. what have they told you to do? i > having a living trust but that just protects you from probate, etc. is your > paid off home something that negates you from getting full home care or > paid facility? bad enough watching my wife (kay LBD, age 59) decline month > by month, week by week, day by day...without going bankrupt also and having > nothing to leave my children. gary > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 thank you pat, that was the kind of info. i was looking for- i will consult an attorney. thanks again  gary (wife kay, LBD, age 59) > ** > > > who has hired an asset protection manager or an elder care attorney ? what > is the difference? share your wisdom. what have they told you to do? i > having a living trust but that just protects you from probate, etc. is your > paid off home something that negates you from getting full home care or > paid facility? bad enough watching my wife (kay LBD, age 59) decline month > by month, week by week, day by day...without going bankrupt also and having > nothing to leave my children. gary > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Pat said " the state does come after your home and assets and your heirs will have to pay the state back from the inheritance you leave to them. " This is true. But I want to add that they can only come after *your*estate (the inheritance). Your estate is considered your asset as long as it exists (even after you pass). Your children will not need to give the state any of their own money. It's an important distinction. Your estate consists of your assets - nothing that your children own. (Keeping in mind that if you gift or deed over anything to your children you should do it early, rather than late, in view of the 5 year lookback.) Kathy On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Mayhew wrote: > Hi , > I am sorry you find the need to join our forum, but am glad you found it. > People here are very helpful and supportive. > I am full time caregiver for my husband Bob 75 who was diagnosed in 2003 > with Parkinson's Plus Syndrome, and with Lewy Body Dementia in 2009. I > have consulted with two different elder law attorneys over the past few > years. The first thing we did in 2003 was to put in place Power of > Attorney documents for all financial and health matters, with myself as > spouse named as POA for both. The attorneys updated our wills and living > trusts while Bob was still competent. Then they advised me that we should > transfer all financial accounts into my name, including ownership of Bob's > life insurance policy. The reason is that the cost of care is so high that > eventually we will need to go on to state Medicaid. When that happens, > your state of residence will require that the ill spouse spend down all > their assets to $2000.00 or less in assets. You can own one house and have > one car when you qualify for Medicaid in our state of Wisconsin. Each > state may vary their requirements a little. If your spouse does go on > Medicaid, the state has the right to come after your house and assets to > recoup the money that they spend on caring for your spouse. Lucky for you, > they do not do it until after you die. The well spouse has the right to > live in the house until you die, or sell it. But the state does come after > your home and assets and your heirs will have to pay the state back from > the inheritance you leave to them. The Federal government has a 5 year look > back period where they will examine all of your financial accounts and > transactions to see if you have given away any assets to anyone other than > your spouse. Those assets given or " gifted " to others count against your > ill spouse getting Medicaid so do not gift anything to anyone. Do not sign > over any property or any money to anyone else or you can not qualify for > Medicaid and you will have to care for your wife at home with little or no > help from the state or anyone other than family members. This is why you > need an Elder Law expert attorney to help you plan for the future. It is > very common for nursing home care to cost over 5000 to 10,000 dollars per > month for dementia care, so planning ahead is crucial. Even home care is > very costly, over $40,000.00 per year. Please do yourself a favor and > consult with a reputable, experienced Elder Law expert attorney as soon as > possible. > Good Luck and Best Wishes, > Pat M. > 58 Wife/caregiver of Bob 75, dx 2003 PD, LBD 2009 > > On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 11:52 AM, gary.s.dale@... < > gary.s.dale@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > who has hired an asset protection manager or an elder care attorney ? > what > > is the difference? share your wisdom. what have they told you to do? i > > having a living trust but that just protects you from probate, etc. is > your > > paid off home something that negates you from getting full home care or > > paid facility? bad enough watching my wife (kay LBD, age 59) decline > month > > by month, week by week, day by day...without going bankrupt also and > having > > nothing to leave my children. gary > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 You got me curious, , so I Googled asset protection manager. When I did that, I mostly got references to people looking for corporate security staff. But when I was entering " asset protection " I saw a search for " asset protection attorney. " I Googled that and below is the Wikipedia definition: * " Asset protection* consists of methods available to protect assets from liabilities <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liability_%28accounting%29>arising elsewhere. It should not be confused with *limiting liability*, which concerns the ability to stop or constrain liability to the asset or activity from which it arises.[2]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_protection#cite_note-1>Assets that are shielded from creditors by law are few (common examples include some home equity, certain retirement plans and interests in LLCs and limited partnerships (and even these are not always unreachable)). Assets that are almost always unreachable are those to which one does not hold legal title. In many cases it is possible to vest legal title to personal assets in a trust, an agent or a nominee, while retaining all the control of the assets. The goal of asset protection is similar to bankruptcy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy>, and the two practice areas go hand-in-hand. When a debtor has none to few assets, the bankruptcy route is preferable. When the debtor has significant assets, asset protection may be the solution. " <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_protection#cite_note-2> From this, I would guess that both are related to each other, but you would look for asset protection attorney more if you were trying to shield assets from some sort of seizure. (Which could apply, but is not limited to, probate.) So, the elderlaw attorney is the best choice, I think. But it might be good, if you have sufficient assets to warrant it, to coordinate the service of the attorney with that of an accountant. Mom didn't have much, so the state can have what little is left. But I would tell my friend, whose dad left her mom very well cared for, to use both. Luckily, one brother is a banker and one is an attorney. Kathy > Pat said " the state does come after your home and assets and your heirs > will have to pay the state back from the inheritance you leave to them. " > > This is true. But I want to add that they can only come after *your*estate (the inheritance). Your estate is considered your asset as long as > it exists (even after you pass). Your children will not need to give the > state any of their own money. It's an important distinction. Your estate > consists of your assets - nothing that your children own. (Keeping in mind > that if you gift or deed over anything to your children you should do it > early, rather than late, in view of the 5 year lookback.) > > Kathy > > > On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Mayhew wrote: > >> Hi , >> I am sorry you find the need to join our forum, but am glad you found it. >> People here are very helpful and supportive. >> I am full time caregiver for my husband Bob 75 who was diagnosed in 2003 >> with Parkinson's Plus Syndrome, and with Lewy Body Dementia in 2009. I >> have consulted with two different elder law attorneys over the past few >> years. The first thing we did in 2003 was to put in place Power of >> Attorney documents for all financial and health matters, with myself as >> spouse named as POA for both. The attorneys updated our wills and living >> trusts while Bob was still competent. Then they advised me that we should >> transfer all financial accounts into my name, including ownership of Bob's >> life insurance policy. The reason is that the cost of care is so high >> that >> eventually we will need to go on to state Medicaid. When that happens, >> your state of residence will require that the ill spouse spend down all >> their assets to $2000.00 or less in assets. You can own one house and >> have >> one car when you qualify for Medicaid in our state of Wisconsin. Each >> state may vary their requirements a little. If your spouse does go on >> Medicaid, the state has the right to come after your house and assets to >> recoup the money that they spend on caring for your spouse. Lucky for >> you, >> they do not do it until after you die. The well spouse has the right to >> live in the house until you die, or sell it. But the state does come >> after >> your home and assets and your heirs will have to pay the state back from >> the inheritance you leave to them. The Federal government has a 5 year >> look >> back period where they will examine all of your financial accounts and >> transactions to see if you have given away any assets to anyone other than >> your spouse. Those assets given or " gifted " to others count against your >> ill spouse getting Medicaid so do not gift anything to anyone. Do not >> sign >> over any property or any money to anyone else or you can not qualify for >> Medicaid and you will have to care for your wife at home with little or no >> help from the state or anyone other than family members. This is why you >> need an Elder Law expert attorney to help you plan for the future. It is >> very common for nursing home care to cost over 5000 to 10,000 dollars per >> month for dementia care, so planning ahead is crucial. Even home care is >> very costly, over $40,000.00 per year. Please do yourself a favor and >> consult with a reputable, experienced Elder Law expert attorney as soon as >> possible. >> Good Luck and Best Wishes, >> Pat M. >> 58 Wife/caregiver of Bob 75, dx 2003 PD, LBD 2009 >> >> On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 11:52 AM, gary.s.dale@... < >> gary.s.dale@...> wrote: >> >> > ** >> > >> > >> > who has hired an asset protection manager or an elder care attorney ? >> what >> > is the difference? share your wisdom. what have they told you to do? i >> > having a living trust but that just protects you from probate, etc. is >> your >> > paid off home something that negates you from getting full home care or >> > paid facility? bad enough watching my wife (kay LBD, age 59) decline >> month >> > by month, week by week, day by day...without going bankrupt also and >> having >> > nothing to leave my children. gary >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Hi , We have been to an elder care attorney here in the San Francisco East Bay area but I have mixed feelings about him. He wants to re-do our living will to an " optional " revokable trust. That's not a problem, but he had suggested we take out a reverse mortgage, even though now we do not need additional income. He also said that since my husband has a good pension, we should only do private pay if he had to go to a nursing home because Medicaid will up the share of cost and I will be left with fewer $$. It's so confusing. Right now we have caregivers and I have the # of hours varied to try to keep the cost " manageable " .....Hah! Even at its cheapest its over $3000 a month....I'm really interested to see if anyone in my area knows an attorney they feel is really sharp.  It kills me to pay out $$$ to anyone who is less than great! Good luck, , and thanks to anyone with a name and/or a suggestion! W ________________________________ To: LBDcaregivers Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 11:27 AM Subject: Re: asset protection  thank you pat, that was the kind of info. i was looking for- i will consult an attorney. thanks again  gary (wife kay, LBD, age 59) > ** > > > who has hired an asset protection manager or an elder care attorney ? what > is the difference? share your wisdom. what have they told you to do? i > having a living trust but that just protects you from probate, etc. is your > paid off home something that negates you from getting full home care or > paid facility? bad enough watching my wife (kay LBD, age 59) decline month > by month, week by week, day by day...without going bankrupt also and having > nothing to leave my children. gary > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 , An elder care attorney can do a lot more and review your trust to make sure it will be good to protect as much as can be. You could prepare your wife and your funeral expenses and do other things that would make her eligible for Medicaid. Medicaid will help cover some costs including costs for caregiving through in home support services (what it's called in California). That's a big help. It also will help for putting her in a day program, if that is something she could do that would give you respite and her a change of scene. Elder care attorneys should be well versed in the rules on all this and how they can be navigated. If you or your wife served in the armed forces during any defined war time you are also eligible for help with her care costs, which also really helps a lot. So sorry you are having to go through this. Dorothy From: LBDcaregivers [mailto:LBDcaregivers ] On Behalf Of gary.s.dale@... Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 9:52 AM To: LBDcaregivers Subject: asset protection who has hired an asset protection manager or an elder care attorney ? what is the difference? share your wisdom. what have they told you to do? i having a living trust but that just protects you from probate, etc. is your paid off home something that negates you from getting full home care or paid facility? bad enough watching my wife (kay LBD, age 59) decline month by month, week by week, day by day...without going bankrupt also and having nothing to leave my children. gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Steer clear of the asset protection manager and find a good elderlaw attorney. The local county bar association can also give you a list of who's doing elderlaw in your area. They are pros at this and know the rules and are your best bet for trying to preserve funds. The sooner you get started the better. Dorothy From: LBDcaregivers [mailto:LBDcaregivers ] On Behalf Of Kate Knapp Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 10:41 AM To: LBDcaregivers Subject: Re: asset protection We hired an elderlaw attorney. We had no idea how to chose one. My sister was going to take a advice from her hair stylist, who recommended her divorce attorney. Instead, I called our long time insurance agent, who, I figured, had a little more experience with the kind of law we needed someone to be familiar with. It was a smart thing to do. We ended up with a guy who is recognized as one of the top 3 elderlaw attorneys in the state (Minnesota). My recommendation: don't go to your stylist for a recommendation. I have no idea what an asset protection manager is. Sounds like a profession that may have grown out of a CPA or business manager. If that's what it is, I suspect either would be helpful. Maybe both. The attorney could help you draw up the correct legal documents and the asset manager could help you with your finances. One thing I don't think everyone recognizes is that the attorney retains an original of each of those documents for you. (at least mine did) No worries if your original gets lost or destroyed. But someone with an accounting background could be better with the financial specifics. Especially if they also have a current knowledge of available assistance and requirements of that assistance. I would think that these professions would go hand in hand. How about looking for a legal firm that offers financial (asset) planning and protection? A reputable attorney will often do the first consultation for free. Maybe an asset protection manager would do the same thing. Ask both of them to compare what they would do for you to what the other profession would do. I guess my recommendation would be an elderlaw attorney who says " we also have asset protection managers and let me bring one in. " Kathy On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 11:52 AM, gary.s.dale@... <mailto:gary.s.dale%40sbcglobal.net> < gary.s.dale@... <mailto:gary.s.dale%40sbcglobal.net> > wrote: > ** > > > who has hired an asset protection manager or an elder care attorney ? what > is the difference? share your wisdom. what have they told you to do? i > having a living trust but that just protects you from probate, etc. is your > paid off home something that negates you from getting full home care or > paid facility? bad enough watching my wife (kay LBD, age 59) decline month > by month, week by week, day by day...without going bankrupt also and having > nothing to leave my children. gary > > > -- Kate Knapp, OIT University of Minnesota " We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented and fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be? Playing small does not serve the world. " - Mandela Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 All of my sisters have seen Mom's will. They saw it while Mom could still speak and discuss her decisions. (Mom hasn't much but is custodian of several family heirlooms.) Likewise, the medical directive was shared and discussed with everyone. Though that could end up being a problem because Mom specifically said that she did not want to be a donor, which I interpret (knowing what Mom was thinking as I was in each session with the attorney) as not donating any part of her body for any reason. My sister does want to donate her brain. But Mom was raised on a farm in a small community in Minnesota during the 1920s and 30s. She can't get her head around having a part of her existing in a lab when the rest of her is cremated and buried with my father. Maybe part of it is her mother's five amputations and not knowing what became of those lost limbs. Grandma was buried without her legs. Mom wants to rest intact (though cremated). My sister is welcome to donate my brain or any other part of me, instead. But she'll have to wait awhile. Kathy > ** > > > Hi Kathy an > > Kathy, great advice ! > > I think having your kids involved in the financial planning Is a great > idea ! This way they are aware of the costs of care and there are no > surprises - it's best to do this when you are still well... And can still > speak and tell your children what your wishes are for end of life.... > > Even though I am only 51 I already put my eldest daughter on my checking > account with me ! > > Transparency, something my mother & father couldn't do, goes a long way > with adult children and. Holding trust as we grow older ! and let me add > that since my husband and I have children from previous marriages I was > open with my stepson about our wills. I went as far as to show him a copy > of the will in front of both my husband and I - no surprises is a good > practice with step children ! > > Do others agree ?? > > Best, > > Judy > > Judy R Strauss, LMSW, PhD > Area Chair | College of Social Sciences > > University of Phoenix > Jersey City Campus | 100 Town Square Place | Suite 305 > Jersey City, NJ 07310 > Cell: > Email: Jrstr@... > > > > > > And, , can I add that you should not be worrying about an inheritance > > for your children? Especially if they are adults? It's nice to leave > > something, but not necessary unless the children are minors and funds are > > needed for their maintenance. (Which often was the case a couple of > > generations ago, when an inheritance was important.) > > > > My guess is that these days, with eldercare costing what it does, most > > people go through all of their assets and end up receiving some kind of > > assistance by the time they pass on. With life expectancy what it is, > > most children of parents considering eldercare alternatives are adults > who > > are able to survive without an inheritance. > > > > If your children are indeed adults, why not involve them in your > financial > > planning? Eventually, one of them is likely going to need familiarity > with > > it for POA duties, anyway. If you do this, I'm sure the question of > > inheritance will come up and you may be surprised at what your adult > > children will say. > > > > I like that bumper sticker that says, " I'm spending my children's > > inheritance. " > > > > Best wishes. > > > > Kathy > > > > On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 11:52 AM, gary.s.dale@... < > > gary.s.dale@...> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > who has hired an asset protection manager or an elder care attorney ? > what > > > is the difference? share your wisdom. what have they told you to do? i > > > having a living trust but that just protects you from probate, etc. is > your > > > paid off home something that negates you from getting full home care or > > > paid facility? bad enough watching my wife (kay LBD, age 59) decline > month > > > by month, week by week, day by day...without going bankrupt also and > having > > > nothing to leave my children. gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Kate Knapp, OIT > > University of Minnesota > > > > > > " We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented and > > fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be? Playing small does not serve > > the world. " > > - Mandela > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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