Guest guest Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 good luck to you Re: [ProstateCancerSupp ort] gleason score > > > Hi Louis, > > Can you tell me why surgery today is any different than > surgery 16 years ago? The removal of the prostate is > still the same with the same unpleasant side effects. > > You seem to be quite knowledgeable, but you are > definitely biased to surgery. I have been studying this > disease for several years. I have known hundreds of > men who have had all the various therapies. They are > all different- no one size fits all. > > There are several prostate cancer support groups in > Los Angeles. I have personally known many of the men > and the therapies they have had. I strongly believe that > for many men, surgery is not the best therapy. > > I wish you all the best > > Aubrey Pilgrim, DC (Ret.) Author of > A Revolutionary Approach to Prostate Cancer-Read the original book > for FREE at: http://www.prostate pointers. org/prostate/ lay/apilgrim/ > Read new edition for FREE at http://www.cancer. prostate- help.org/ capilgr.htm > Dr. E. Crawford is co-author of the revision > > In a message dated 3/30/2008 8:52:07 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, lcarliner@earthlink .net writes: > Just to put things into perspective, your operation took place almost 16 years ago and techniques have improve immensely over that time. If the person is under his mid-fifities, there is a terrible choice. In the early stage in which the cancer is confined to the prostate and the Gleason score is 6 to 7 or below, outcome is likely to be best with surgery, but the price, assuming that the side- effects resolve in a decent time interval, is the loss of semen production. With radiation, other than proton beam treatment, the side effects will be less initially, but the risk of the cancer recurring and the dreaded side effects developing to a permanent state over the long term (ED and rectal issues). Also, salvage procedures, should treatment fail, will be rather messy. > > I was going to go with Brachytherapy until I was confronted with the prospect of ADT shots. I am less than two years (this coming September) with some ED issues, but these appear to be very slowly resolving themselves. My most recent PSA level was at the unmeasurable point. My original Gleason score was 6 to 7. The other thing do before surgery is to use Avodart or Poscar (or their generic equivalent) to shrink the gland prior to surgery. I believe that this measure will reduce the side effect of penile shortening. I would start on penile rehabilitation some six months after surgery, but my health plan did not cover it. > > Louis. . . > > > > > Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - ------ > Like movies? Here's a limited-time offer: Blockbuster Total Access for one month at no cost. > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - -------- > Special deal for Yahoo! users friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 Louis, I'm sorry but I do not agree with you. I wonder if you checked out Proton Therapy, little to no side effects. I do not believe that surgery is the best option out there for early stage prostate cancer. I've been studing options since January and they all come with side effects, except for Proton Therapy.Surgery may be your choice, but to say it is the best treatment is just plain wrong. I wonder how long you did research and did you study all the options out there. I believe if you have your statements would be different. I wish you the best of luck with your surgery. And I hope you will be satified with the results. Best Wishes, Sheila --------- Re: gleason score> > > Hi Louis,> > Can you tell me why surgery today is any different t han> surgery 16 years ago? The removal of the prostate is> still the same with the same unpleasant side effects. > > You seem to be quite knowledgeable, but you are > definitely biased to surgery. I have been studying this> disease for several years. I have known hundreds of> men who have had all the various therapies. They are> all different- no one size fits all. > > There are several prostate cancer support groups in > Los Angeles. I have personally known many of the men> and the therapies they have had. I strongly believe that> for many men, surgery is not the best therapy.> > I wish you all the best> > Aubrey Pilgrim, DC (Ret.) Author of> A Revolutionary Approach to Prostate Cancer-Read the original book > for FREE at: http://www.prostate pointers. org/prostate/ lay/apilgrim/> Read new edition for FREE at http://www.cancer. prostate- help.org/ capilgr.htm> Dr. E. Crawford is co-author of the revision > > In a message dated 3/30/2008 8:52:07 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, lcarliner@earthlink .net writes:> Just to put things into perspective, your operation took place almost 16 years ago and techniques have improve immensely over that time. If the person is under his mid-fifities, there is a terrible choice. In the early stage in which the cancer is confined to the prostate and the Gleason score is 6 to 7 or below, outcome is likely to be best with surgery, but the price, assuming that the side-effects resolve in a decent time interval, is the loss of semen production. With radiation, other than proton beam treatment, the side effects will be less initially, but the risk of the cancer recurring and the dreaded side effects developing to a permanent state over the l ong term (ED and rectal issues). Also, salvage procedures, should treatment fail, will be rather messy. > > I was going to go with Brachytherapy until I was confronted with the prospect of ADT shots. I am less than two years (this coming September) with some ED issues, but these appear to be very slowly resolving themselves. My most recent PSA level was at the unmeasurable point. My original Gleason score was 6 to 7. The other thing do before surgery is to use Avodart or Poscar (or their generic equivalent) to shrink the gland prior to surgery. I believe that this measure will reduce the side effect of penile shortening. I would start on penile rehabilitation some six months after surgery, but my health plan did not cover it.> > Louis. . . > > > > > Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.> > > > > -------------- --------------------------------------------------> Like movies? Here's a limited-time offer: Blockbuster Total Access for one month at no cost. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------> Special deal for Yahoo! users friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 I really don't understand why people insist on making such absolute statements as " ..all come with side effects, except for Proton Therapy " . This is of course not true; even Dr Rossi's published results acknowledge side effects from proton therapy, and he should know a heck of a lot more about it than either you or I. It is pretty much impossible to get everyone to agree on what " best treatment " means, because we all value different things. If you really want to get the offending organ removed from your body, and want to biopsy your prostate to make sure of your future prognosis, then surgery may be " best " . If you are looking to minimize serious side effects, then brachytherapy or protons or the more modern forms of IMRT may be your choice. All of us who have been treated for PCa have had to make a choice based on our own judgement and values, and as I'm sure you have noticed, there is no agreement on a single, best choice of treatment. Louis, I'm sorry but I do not agree with you. I wonder if you checked out Proton Therapy, little to no side effects. I do not believe that surgery is the best option out there for early stage prostate cancer. I've been studing options since January and they all come with side effects, except for Proton Therapy.Surgery may be your choice, but to say it is the best treatment is just plain wrong. I wonder how long you did research and did you study all the options out there. I believe if you have your statements would be different. I wish you the best of luck with your surgery. And I hope you will be satified with the results. Best Wishes, Sheila --------- Re: gleason score> > > Hi Louis,> > Can you tell me why surgery today is any different t han> surgery 16 years ago? The removal of the prostate is> still the same with the same unpleasant side effects. > > You seem to be quite knowledgeable, but you are > definitely biased to surgery. I have been studying this > disease for several years. I have known hundreds of> men who have had all the various therapies. They are> all different- no one size fits all. > > There are several prostate cancer support groups in > Los Angeles. I have personally known many of the men> and the therapies they have had. I strongly believe that> for many men, surgery is not the best therapy.> > I wish you all the best > > Aubrey Pilgrim, DC (Ret.) Author of> A Revolutionary Approach to Prostate Cancer-Read the original book > for FREE at: http://www.prostate pointers. org/prostate/ lay/apilgrim/> Read new edition for FREE at http://www.cancer. prostate- help.org/ capilgr.htm> Dr. E. Crawford is co-author of the revision > > In a message dated 3/30/2008 8:52:07 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, lcarliner@earthlink .net writes:> Just to put things into perspective, your operation took place almost 16 years ago and techniques have improve immensely over that time. If the person is under his mid-fifities, there is a terrible choice. In the early stage in which the cancer is confined to the prostate and the Gleason score is 6 to 7 or below, outcome is likely to be best with surgery, but the price, assuming that the side- effects resolve in a decent time interval, is the loss of semen production. With radiation, other than proton beam treatment, the side effects will be less initially, but the risk of the cancer recurring and the dreaded side effects developing to a permanent state over the l ong term (ED and rectal issues). Also, salvage procedures, should treatment fail, will be rather messy. > > I was going to go with Brachytherapy until I was confronted with the prospect of ADT shots. I am less than two years (this coming September) with some ED issues, but these appear to be very slowly resolving themselves. My most recent PSA level was at the unmeasurable point. My original Gleason score was 6 to 7. The other thing do before surgery is to use Avodart or Poscar (or their generic equivalent) to shrink the gland prior to surgery. I believe that this measure will reduce the side effect of penile shortening. I would start on penile rehabilitation some six months after surgery, but my health plan did not cover it. > > Louis. . . > > > > > Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.> > > > > -------------- --------------------------------------------------> Like movies? Here's a limited-time offer: Blockbuster Total Access for one month at no cost. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------> Special deal for Yahoo! users friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now> -- Bobinnv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 From what I have been reading, Proton Beam therapy may very well be the ideal, if applicable. I have indicated this in my posts. Problem is that I am based north of Tampa, Florida, and the nearest center to me is in ville, Florida, some 300 miles northeast. Also, I would have to temporarily live there for a few weeks because of the number of twice weekly to weekly treatment sessions, not to say whether it would be covered by insurance. Unfortunately for me, at the time of my diagnosis (June, 2006), I was not aware of its existence, and the other treatment methods clearly had their own problems and risks. The ideal treatment would be analogous to that of a course of antibiotics or therapeutic immunization in which the pathology is destroyed without any collateral damage. Proton beam therapy comes close to the very ideal, but availability, cost issues and insurance coverage issues are barriers. Improvements reportedly made recently with cryosurgery may well be another good alternative, as well as focused ultrasound (which has not yet been approved for use in the U.S. by the FDA). In my case, I still have issues with incomplete restoration of erectile function, which is progressing very slowly, and frequency of need to urinate (though I am fully continent and no need to use pads). My PSA has remained immeasurable so far. Fro a relatively young person, if the biopsy indicates a very non-aggressive cancer in its early stages, maybe the gamble of active surveillance to give time of immunotherapy becomes available or a more accessible venue for proton beam therapy becomes available. In any case, the forms of radiation treatment of Brachytherapy or IMRT or hormone blockade medication for a relatively young person are less desirable in terms of the risk of long-term permanent side effects. For a person of advancing age in which surgery is a rather risky undertaking, then radiation treatment, combined with hormone blockage may well be the only options currently available. Louis. . . Re: gleason score> > > Hi Louis,> > Can you tell me why surgery today is any different t han> surgery 16 years ago? The removal of the prostate is> still the same with the same unpleasant side effects. > > You seem to be quite knowledgeable, but you are > definitely biased to surgery. I have been studying this> disease for several years. I have known hundreds of> men who have had all the various therapies. They are> all different- no one size fits all. > > There are several prostate cancer support groups in > Los Angeles. I have personally known many of the men> and the therapies they have had. I strongly believe that> for many men, surgery is not the best therapy.> > I wish you all the best> > Aubrey Pilgrim, DC (Ret.) Author of> A Revolutionary Approach to Prostate Cancer-Read the original book > for FREE at: http://www.prostate pointers. org/prostate/ lay/apilgrim/> Read new edition for FREE at http://www.cancer. prostate- help.org/ capilgr.htm> Dr. E. Crawford is co-author of the revision > > In a message dated 3/30/2008 8:52:07 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, lcarliner@earthlink .net writes:> Just to put things into perspective, your operation took place almost 16 years ago and techniques have improve immensely over that time. If the person is under his mid-fifities, there is a terrible choice. In the early stage in which the cancer is confined to the prostate and the Gleason score is 6 to 7 or below, outcome is likely to be best with surgery, but the price, assuming that the side-effects resolve in a decent time interval, is the loss of semen production. With radiation, other than proton beam treatment, the side effects will be less initially, but the risk of the cancer recurring and the dreaded side effects developing to a permanent state over the l ong term (ED and rectal issues). Also, salvage procedures, should treatment fail, will be rather messy. > > I was going to go with Brachytherapy until I was confronted with the prospect of ADT shots. I am less than two years (this coming September) with some ED issues, but these appear to be very slowly resolving themselves. My most recent PSA level was at the unmeasurable point. My original Gleason score was 6 to 7. The other thing do before surgery is to use Avodart or Poscar (or their generic equivalent) to shrink the gland prior to surgery. I believe that this measure will reduce the side effect of penile shortening. I would start on penile rehabilitation some six months after surgery, but my health plan did not cover it.> > Louis. . . > > > > > Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.> > > > > -------------- --------------------------------------------------> Like movies? Here's a limited-time offer: Blockbuster Total Access for one month at no cost. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------> Special deal for Yahoo! users friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 Problem with IMRT and brachytherapy is though the risk of initial side effects is usually less than with surgery initially, the probability of it developing to a permanent state (especially ED) later on is greater. If shrinkage shots of Lupron is required prior to the start of treatment, then the side effects of ADT pre-treatment is obvious. The prospect of Lupron shots plus my history ulcerative colitis with increased chance of rectal damage changed my mind very quickly from brachytherapy to go with surgery. Louis. . . Re: gleason score> > > Hi Louis,> > Can you tell me why surgery today is any different t han> surgery 16 years ago? The removal of the prostate is> still the same with the same unpleasant side effects. > > You seem to be quite knowledgeable, but you are > definitely biased to surgery. I have been studying this> disease for several years. I have known hundreds of> men who have had all the various therapies. They are> all different- no one size fits all. > > There are several prostate cancer support groups in > Los Angeles. I have personally known many of the men> and the therapies they have had. I strongly believe that> for many men, surgery is not the best therapy.> > I wish you all the best> > Aubrey Pilgrim, DC (Ret.) Author of> A Revolutionary Approach to Prostate Cancer-Read the original book > for FREE at: http://www.prostate pointers. org/prostate/ lay/apilgrim/> Read new edition for FREE at http://www.cancer. prostate- help.org/ capilgr.htm> Dr. E. Crawford is co-author of the revision > > In a message dated 3/30/2008 8:52:07 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, lcarliner@earthlink .net writes:> Just to put things into perspective, your operation took place almost 16 years ago and techniques have improve immensely over that time. If the person is under his mid-fifities, there is a terrible choice. In the early stage in which the cancer is confined to the prostate and the Gleason score is 6 to 7 or below, outcome is likely to be best with surgery, but the price, assuming that the side-effects resolve in a decent time interval, is the loss of semen production. With radiation, other than proton beam treatment, the side effects will be less initially, but the risk of the cancer recurring and the dreaded side effects developing to a permanent state over the l ong term (ED and rectal issues). Also, salvage procedures, should treatment fail, will be rather messy. > > I was going to go with Brachytherapy until I was confronted with the prospect of ADT shots. I am less than two years (this coming September) with some ED issues, but these appear to be very slowly resolving themselves. My most recent PSA level was at the unmeasurable point. My original Gleason score was 6 to 7. The other thing do before surgery is to use Avodart or Poscar (or their generic equivalent) to shrink the gland prior to surgery. I believe that this measure will reduce the side effect of penile shortening. I would start on penile rehabilitation some six months after surgery, but my health plan did not cover it.> > Louis. . . > > > > > Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.> > > > > -------------- -------------------------------------------- ------> Like movies? Here's a limited-time offer: Blockbuster Total Access for one month at no cost. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------> Special deal for Yahoo! users friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now> -- Bobinnv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 > Problem with IMRT and brachytherapy is though the risk of initial side > effects is usually less than with surgery initially, the probability of > it developing to a permanent state (especially ED) later on is greater. I suggest that Louis post his source. I believe that he is mistaken. See my March 31 post, " Late Rectal & Urinary Toxicities Post RT " which includes my source. The term of the cited study was ten years. We need a bit of terms definition here. What is " later? " What about simply aging being the causal factor of ED? > If shrinkage shots of Lupron is required prior to the start of > treatment, then the side effects of ADT pre-treatment is obvious. And SEs of ADT can be ameliorated or entirely relieved. See http://prostate-cancer.org/education/andind/Guess_TestosteroneSideEffects.html or http://tinyurl.com/ysqktn And http://www.prostate-cancer.org/education/sidefx/Strum_ADS.html or http://tinyurl.com/g6fzp Lastly, one should bear in mind that *all* treatments have SEs. Selecting a tx involves SEs as an important (but not sole) consideration. Regards, Steve J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 My primary source is Dr. Lange's book Prostate Cancer for Dummies. Louis. . . Re: Re: gleason score > Problem with IMRT and brachytherapy is though the risk of initial side > effects is usually less than with surgery initially, the probability of > it developing to a permanent state (especially ED) later on is greater. I suggest that Louis post his source.I believe that he is mistaken. See my March 31 post, "Late Rectal & Urinary Toxicities Post RT" which includes my source. The term of the cited study was ten years.We need a bit of terms definition here. What is "later?" What about simply aging being the causal factor of ED?> If shrinkage shots of Lupron is required prior to the start of > treatment, then the side effects of ADT pre-treatment is obvious. And SEs of ADT can be ameliorated or entirely relieved. See http://prostate-cancer.org/education/andind/Guess_TestosteroneSideEffects.htmlorhttp://tinyurl.com/ysqktnAnd http://www.prostate-cancer.org/education/sidefx/Strum_ADS.htmlorhttp://tinyurl.com/g6fzpLastly, one should bear in mind that *all* treatments have SEs. Selecting a tx involves SEs as an important (but not sole) consideration.Regards,Steve J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 On April 2, Louis replied to me: > My primary source is Dr. Lange's book _Prostate Cancer for */Dummies/*_. I don't want to start an argument, as that's not what this group is for. But merely citing a book simply is not a response. What should be posted is chapter & verse. In other words, a quotation from the book, with page reference. And the medical evidence that the author uses to support what he wrote. I have to make an issue of this because many of our members are quite new at this, and might be frightened away from a tx that could help them if they see posts that do not have a solid basis in science. The converse could also happen: encouraged to undergo an inappropriate tx based upon the same sort of posts. As I wrote, ALL txs have SEs. And those SEs are usually different in nature and intensity for each patient. None of us here is a medical expert. Regards, Steve J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 Chapter 12, Part III, page 151 Considering the risks you face Wiping out cancer cells with radiation therapy can cause some side effect. Nature really didn't intend for you to get continuously bombarded with radiation, so your body may struggle for awhile to cope with the after-effect of radiation therapy. But the good news is that most of the side effects of radiatin therapy are temporary; your body will return to normal within weeks of your last trreatment. Possible side effects to radiation treatments include: Impotence: Although the risk of impotence is generally lower initially with radiation than with surgery, the risk of permanent impotence may still be as high as 20 percent to 40 percent. Urinary incontinence: With radiation therapy, urinary incontinence may result from a damaged urinary sphincter. With radiation therapy, significant urinary incontinence (requiring one or mor pads daily) occurs in 1 percent to 3 percent of all patients. Only rarely (less than 1 percent of cases) is it permanent.. Severe urinary frequency or urgency: . . . . . less than 5 percent of patiencs, but it is more likely to be experienced by patients who have bladder problems before radiation treatments. Rectal problems: . . . . flare-up of hemorrhoids, rectal burning with bowel movement, diarrhea or bowel urgence. Often temporary and controllable with medications. Permanent rectal problems (occurring in less than 5 percent of cases, more likely to occur if you have bowel problems before radiation treatment. Weakness and tiredness. Severe tissue damage (rare). I hope this is enough. The book is widely available at CVS pharmacies and bookstores. The only caviat is that the book was copyrighted in 2003. Louis. . . Re: Re: gleason score On April 2, Louis replied to me:> My primary source is Dr. Lange's book _Prostate Cancer for */Dummies/*_.I don't want to start an argument, as that's not what this group is for.But merely citing a book simply is not a response.What should be posted is chapter & verse. In other words, a quotation from the book, with page reference. And the medical evidence that the author uses to support what he wrote.I have to make an issue of this because many of our members are quite new at this, and might be frightened away from a tx that could help them if they see posts that do not have a solid basis in science. The converse could also happen: encouraged to undergo an inappropriate tx based upon the same sort of posts.As I wrote, ALL txs have SEs. And those SEs are usually different in nature and intensity for each patient.None of us here is a medical expert.Regards,Steve J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 On the positive side some side-effects can be beneficial. In my case I had hemorrhoids prior to brachytherapy and have not suffered from them since (7 years) Everard In message <010901c89520$c75e5780$6501a8c0@louisa1250n> ProstateCancerSupport writes: > Chapter 12, Part III, page 151 > > Considering the risks you face > > > Possible side effects to radiation treatments include: > > Rectal problems: . . . . flare-up of hemorrhoids, rectal burning with bowel movement, diarrhea or bowel urgence. Often temporary and controllable with medications. Permanent rectal problems (occurring in less than 5 percent of cases, more likely to occur if you have bowel problems before radiation treatment. > > I hope this is enough. The book is widely available at CVS pharmacies and bookstores. The only caviat is that the book was copyrighted in 2003. > > Louis. . . > > > Re: Re: gleason score > > > On April 2, Louis replied to me: > > > My primary source is Dr. Lange's book _Prostate Cancer for */Dummies/*_. > > I don't want to start an argument, as that's not what this group is for. > > But merely citing a book simply is not a response. > > What should be posted is chapter & verse. In other words, a quotation > from the book, with page reference. And the medical evidence that the > author uses to support what he wrote. > > I have to make an issue of this because many of our members are quite > new at this, and might be frightened away from a tx that could help them > if they see posts that do not have a solid basis in science. The > converse could also happen: encouraged to undergo an inappropriate tx > based upon the same sort of posts. > > As I wrote, ALL txs have SEs. And those SEs are usually different in > nature and intensity for each patient. > > None of us here is a medical expert. > > Regards, > > Steve J > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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