Guest guest Posted January 11, 2002 Report Share Posted January 11, 2002 I live in Oregon, and have known several cattle ranchers. There are many bibles, and I'm not going to turn this forum into a religious debate. The evidence is there for any who wish to examine the facts, and millions are turning to vegetarianism because of the facts. Also, mad cow disease is definitely not confined to Europe. When they finally start reporting it here in the US due to specific cases, there will be many thousands of cases incubating for each one that they find. At the moment the only way to diagnose it as Mad Cow Disease instead of Alzheimers is an autopsy, so it is swept under the rug in the US. Most food cattle are killed before the onset of the disease, so good luck finding it. And whether you use a gun or a knife, killing is killing. And what you eat is death, not the life you eat with plants. Personally, it makes more sense to eat the live plants than the dead animals to give me life. > I don't know which Creator or Bible you are referring to but it's not the one > I read, I believe in God the creator and the Bible. Where I live there is no > torture or mutilation. The steers/hogs/ etc. are shot with a .22 bullet > between the eyes and never feel a thing. No pain. They are raised for meat, > not pleasure. I get the stong feeling you're British. Am I correct? Reason > being my mom is from England. And I've been there three times, lived there > over a year going to school one of those times. Veggism is a hard sell there > and most popular. And with Mad Cow I wouldn't eat meat either. I won't ask > my aunt to bring me Cheshire Cheese anymore the last few years (boy I miss > that! my favorite cheese in the world) > > I don't mean this in any way argumentative. Just reading your posts you > sound like my family from England. We get all the lectures here. PETA must > be pretty prevelant in the UK. We live in cattle country in the US so it > doesn't sit well with us. Different views I guess. LOL > Take care, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2002 Report Share Posted January 11, 2002 << And yes, in the New Testament did say that we should eat meat, or also not eat meat..as long as we do it for the Lord. That meant that neither was to judge the others cho >> _______________ Very well said, Barry, And did say that the weaker do eat only veggies. I suppose that some vegetarians assume that we don't eat veggies at all. Well, I for one eat veggies and meat. What is missed from those not following the Scriptures is that " meat " stands for the meat of the Scriptures. But those who don't follow the Scriptures might have a hard time understanding this, huh? For those who follow the scriptural understanding of anything, eating is extremely important!!! (as one eats the words of Yahweh!!!) Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2002 Report Share Posted January 11, 2002 That is a good piece of information. The truth is that everyone is individual. And everyone has different nutritional needs and deficiencies. I was not a big meat eater, then I breast fed my daughter for an extended period of time. >> ______________________ so I can clear up the matter in saying the one only eating veggies is the weaker brother/sister, let me give you a quote please. Rom. 14:2, One indeed believes to eat all things (btw, he's talking about clean meat here, guys), but being weak, another eats only vegetables.... " Then he goes on to say that the one eating (meat) do not despise the one not eating (only veggies.) The thing is, the one being weak here is the one who wishes to eat only vegetables. If you look up the Greek, it can mean one spiritually weak or one weak from an illness. But (Saul) is using it as someone weak spiritually. Regardless, we are to accept that one who eats only veggies. Now, let's say that one has an illness, then sometimes only veggies can be eaten by them. Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2002 Report Share Posted January 12, 2002 Well said Susie, Also, fish, chicken, eggs, etc could be considered live food. Some people even think that plants have life too before we cut them down and feast on them. What it comes down to is that some people are vegitarian and others are not. No one should judge the other. And yes, in the New Testament did say that we should eat meat, or also not eat meat..as long as we do it for the Lord. That meant that neither was to judge the others choice of their chosen way to worship the Lord in eating. Barry. > And whether you use a gun or a knife, killing > is killing. And what you eat is death, not the life you eat with > plants. Personally, it makes more sense to eat the live plants than > the dead animals to give me life. >> > ____________________ > > Hello, it may not be turning into a religious debate, but nonetheless it > touches upon some people's religious views. That's incorrect, all killing is > not the same. There's murder and then there's killing. Yahweh gave Adam > dominion over the animals. He gave meat for humankind to eat after the > flood. Not only this, there were free-ill sacrifices of animals, and later > on at the Passover animals were sacrificed, the blood put over the doors and > the animal's meat eaten. At Mt. Sinai there were commanded sacrifices then, > with people eating the meat!!! And in the NT, Saul () says not to judge > people in what they eat, whether they're vegetarians or not because the > weaker brother eats only veggies. But in truth many vegetarians judge you, > or seem to, for being meat eaters. Strange how things get turned around. > > In the time to come, even the plant foods will get bad!! > Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2002 Report Share Posted January 12, 2002 <<And yes, in the New Testament did say that we should eat meat, or also not eat meat..as long as we do it for the Lord. That meant that neither was to judge the others choice of their chosen way to worship the Lord in eating. >> Thanks Barry. That is a good piece of information. The truth is that everyone is individual. And everyone has different nutritional needs and deficiencies. I was not a big meat eater, then I breast fed my daughter for an extended period of time. After I started having RA symptoms I went to an alternative doctor who tested my amino acids and found that most of them were low or on the low side. So he directed my diet to contain meats, except red and pork. My pain has been reduced 80 percent. Have a good weekend. , Georgia ----- Original Message ----- From: " barry91162 " <barry91162@...> <gallstones > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 9:00 PM Subject: Re: Meat eating > Well said Susie, > > Also, fish, chicken, eggs, etc could be considered live food. Some > people even think that plants have life too before we cut them down > and feast on them. > > What it comes down to is that some people are vegitarian and others > are not. No one should judge the other. > > And yes, in the New Testament did say that we should eat meat, > or also not eat meat..as long as we do it for the Lord. That meant > that neither was to judge the others choice of their chosen way to > worship the Lord in eating. > > Barry. > > > > > > > And whether you use a gun or a knife, killing > > is killing. And what you eat is death, not the life you eat with > > plants. Personally, it makes more sense to eat the live plants > than > > the dead animals to give me life. >> > > ____________________ > > > > Hello, it may not be turning into a religious debate, but > nonetheless it > > touches upon some people's religious views. That's incorrect, all > killing is > > not the same. There's murder and then there's killing. Yahweh > gave Adam > > dominion over the animals. He gave meat for humankind to eat after > the > > flood. Not only this, there were free-ill sacrifices of animals, > and later > > on at the Passover animals were sacrificed, the blood put over the > doors and > > the animal's meat eaten. At Mt. Sinai there were commanded > sacrifices then, > > with people eating the meat!!! And in the NT, Saul () says not > to judge > > people in what they eat, whether they're vegetarians or not because > the > > weaker brother eats only veggies. But in truth many vegetarians > judge you, > > or seem to, for being meat eaters. Strange how things get turned > around. > > > > In the time to come, even the plant foods will get bad!! > > Susie > > > > Learn more from our experience, more then 200 liver flush stories: > http:///messages/gallstones-testimonials > > Liver Cleanse Recipe: > http://www.CureZone.com/cleanse/liver/ > > Images: > http://CureZone.com/image_gallery/cleanse_flush/ > http://CureZone.com/image_gallery/intrahepatic_stones/ > > Post message: gallstones > Receive no-mail: gallstones-nomail > Subscribe: gallstones-subscribe > Unsubscribe: gallstones-unsubscribe > > Web Sites for more information: > http://CureZone.com/gallstones/ > http://www.liverdoctor.com/ > http://www.sensiblehealth.com/ > http://www.cyberpog.com/health/index.htm > http://www.relfe.com/gall_stone_cleanse.html > > Group page: gallstones > > To change your subscription to digest (receive up to 25 e-mails in just one single e-mail, once a day) send blank e-mail to: gallstones-digest > > To change your subscription to NO-MAIL send blank e-mail to: gallstones-nomail > > To change your subscription to NORMAL (receive each message separate) > send blank e-mail to: gallstones-normal > > You are receiving this email because you elected to subscribe to the Gallstones group on 's groups. By joining the list you agree to hold yourself FULLY responsible FOR yourself! > Have a nice day ! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2002 Report Share Posted January 12, 2002 >>At the moment the only way to diagnose it as Mad Cow Disease instead of Alzheimers is an autopsy,<< I believe this to be misinformation. It is true, that the only way one can be certain that a person had Alzheimer's instead of another form of senile dementia is through an autopsy, but the symptoms and progression of Mad Cow Disease and Alzheimer's are not similar. Debra _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2002 Report Share Posted January 12, 2002 I don't think that people who choose not to eat meat should judge those who do. Make the choice that is right for you, and respect other's choices. Same with religion. Debra _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2002 Report Share Posted January 12, 2002 Animals that eat meat are viscious and animals that eat vegetables are docile in most instances. Meat eating humans have a higher disease rate than non-meat eaters. Look at the evidence and try to resist the knee-jerk reaction to defend your lifestyle. >> _____________________ Hello, The animals that are docile and eat plants and stuff is exactly why one should want to eat them. Like cows. Who wants to eat an animal that eats other animals or other people? And it's an incorrect statement to state that meat-eaters are not as healthy. New research comes out daily that proves this is false. Evidence is proving that vegetarians are not as healthy. I say the key to a healthy diet is moderation of anything. Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2002 Report Share Posted January 12, 2002 << Also to say that the Holy Bible " is only a book that 'purports' to be the word of God edited many times to eliminate and change wordng " could be a stab at someones faith and could result in debate. >> _________________ I agree with you. I just took it as that person hasn't studied it and proven otherwise. There's lots of people like that. Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2002 Report Share Posted January 12, 2002 I was not judging meat eaters, I was judging the effect of eating rotting flesh on the body. I said to eat whatever makes you feel best, and be sure to listen to what your body says about what you eat, as that is different for everyone. I think the religious ferver took things into personal judgements....it usually does. I'm just saying be honest and look at all the evidence, not just a book that purports to be the word of God even though it's been edited by men many, many times to eliminate and change its wording. Animals that eat meat are viscious and animals that eat vegetables are docile in most instances. Meat eating humans have a higher disease rate than non-meat eaters. Look at the evidence and try to resist the knee-jerk reaction to defend your lifestyle. As I said, there's lots of evidence of the problems surrounding meat, and that's why millions are giving it up. > > I don't think that people who choose not to eat meat should judge those who > do. Make the choice that is right for you, and respect other's choices. > Same with religion. > > > Debra > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2002 Report Share Posted January 12, 2002 Thank you Debra, said the same thing in Romans Chapter 14 regarding meat and days to worship. Barry. > > I don't think that people who choose not to eat meat should judge those who > do. Make the choice that is right for you, and respect other's choices. > Same with religion. > > > Debra > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2002 Report Share Posted January 12, 2002 Who eats rotting flesh on the body anyway? I cook my meat well done. And it usually is fresh, not rotting. haha Also to say that the Holy Bible " is only a book that 'purports' to be the word of God edited many times to eliminate and change wordng " could be a stab at someones faith and could result in debate. Everyone can worship and eat what they want. Vegitarian is better but meat is not bad as long as it is eaten properly. Whoever said that God didn't want us to eat meat is wrong in my opinion. I can support my opinion with debate using the Holy Bible. I don't know what the other religious books say. Thanks. Barry. > > > > I don't think that people who choose not to eat meat should judge > those who > > do. Make the choice that is right for you, and respect other's > choices. > > Same with religion. > > > > > > Debra > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > > http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2002 Report Share Posted January 13, 2002 << I don't think that people who choose not to eat meat should judge those who do. Make the choice that is right for you, and respect other's choices. Same with religion. >> Thank you Debra, I agree with you. I also disagree with one mentioning a 'Creator' without naming Him and His word. I don't know if they're referring to Buddah, Alah, God, Jim or whomever. I don't know if the word/teaching their reading from is the Bible, the Koran or whatever either. So I cannot justify what they say when they put out a blanket statement of the Creator says, etc. since I don't know who their speaking for. I also agree we should respect each others right to choose what they want to eat or not. But I do find Vegetarians to be most hostile toward meat eaters rather than visa versa. It's sorta werid. Gosh, just check out the hostility and misinformation coming from PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) When my family comes here from England (most vegetarians) all we do is hustle to find food they will eat, all the while they badger us on what the heck we eat!!! How rude we find them to be, yet we ignore the rudeness in love! Yet someone on here said meat eaters were found to be mean??? LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2002 Report Share Posted January 13, 2002 How rude we find them to be, yet we ignore the rudeness in love! Yet someone on here said meat eaters were found to be mean??? LOL >> _______________________ Hi, , Check this out from Dr. Mercola's website. It's a pretty good write-up about vegetarianism and the myths of it. http://www.mercola.com/2000/apr/2/vegetarian_myths.htm Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2002 Report Share Posted January 13, 2002 Meat eating >> > How rude we find them to be, yet we ignore the rudeness in love! Yet >someone > on here said meat eaters were found to be mean??? LOL > >> > _______________________ Some famous vegeterians of the twentyth century.... Stalin Hitler Pol Pot just a little trivia.... hey I was a vegerian too... There is a difference between an animal rights activist and a vegeterian. ct. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2002 Report Share Posted January 14, 2002 Am I wrong about this? I know it definitely wasn't written in today's english, and has been loosely translated from many different scriptures. I suppose yours is the true and correct version, as that's usually the case with those who use the Bible as the ultimate permission for their behavior. >> _________________ Hello, I do not know anything about popes. Sorry. I use an Interlinear Bible with Hebrew, Greek & English. Then we have the LXX, Aramaic Targum Text, Syriac, and Hebrew Gospel of , an ancient text, along with many other aids to help us in research. Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2002 Report Share Posted January 14, 2002 Susie, From the nature of your posts, I doubt that you will do much research on your own to discover the dangers of eating meat, which is why I continue posting this information here. Most animal meat and byproducts that are sold for human consumption today is from animals that are fed animal products. That's where Mad Cow Disease comes from, the feeding of vegetarian animals animal products from rendering plants. I see that you didn't read the links I posted in the first place. Maybe you don't eat that kind of meat, but 90% of american meat eaters don't have an alternative source for meat. Pretty soon it will be 99%. Every day there is more evidence on the dangers of eating meat. How about today's LA Times for example: http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-000003406jan14.story And cooking does not prevent the rotting of the meat, or kill all the parasites. Talk to a high school biology student for further info. Anyway, I was talking about looking at the animal kingdom to see how the carnivors act compared to the vegetarian animals, and then deciding which animal you'd rather act like. I want to say something about attitude and assimilation. I believe that people can eat almost anything and survive as long as they honestly believe they can. I believe there is danger in telling someone that something is bad for them in that it can increase the damage through the conflicting beliefs of something being both good and bad, whichis why I keep saying that there are those who live to be 100 years old smoking cigars and eating hot dogs. But few can live that lifestyle without genetic superiority (which they won't have for long in their offspring with a diet like that!), so there's a paradox to solve:does the cancer warning on a pack of cigarettes cause more cancer than smoking? I think so...so I'm not here to say that people shouldn'teat meat as much as I'm here to say that people should honestly look at the big picture and listen to their bodies tell them what works. We hear you...*smile*...and it sounds like you are working on makingyour diet work. But will it work for everyone? Also, how about a few references for articles that say vegetarianism is less healthy than meat eating please. Thanks. Eulypian > Animals that eat meat are > viscious and animals that eat vegetables are docile in most instances. > Meat eating humans have a higher disease rate than non-meat eaters. > Look at the evidence and try to resist the knee-jerk reaction to > defend your lifestyle. >> > _____________________ > > Hello, > The animals that are docile and eat plants and stuff is exactly why one > should want to eat them. Like cows. Who wants to eat an animal that eats > other animals or other people? > > And it's an incorrect statement to state that meat-eaters are not as healthy. > New research comes out daily that proves this is false. Evidence is > proving that vegetarians are not as healthy. I say the key to a healthy diet > is moderation of anything. > Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2002 Report Share Posted January 14, 2002 Several Popes changed the wording of the Holy Bible to fit their political needs. Am I wrong about this? I know it definitely wasn't written in today's english, and has been loosely translated from many different scriptures. I suppose yours is the true and correct version, as that's usually the case with those who use the Bible as the ultimate permission for their behavior. > << Also to say that the Holy Bible " is only a book that 'purports' to be > the word of God edited many times to eliminate and change wordng " > could be a stab at someones faith and could result in debate. >> > _________________ > > I agree with you. I just took it as that person hasn't studied it and proven > otherwise. There's lots of people like that. > Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2002 Report Share Posted January 14, 2002 *grin*...that sure is a silly article. I haven't eaten meat in over 30 years and have yet to be anemic or deficient in B12. (Just letting you know I read the link!) Thanks for the article, though. That's one for meat eating against thousands proving the dangers of meat eating. How about some more? > How rude we find them to be, yet we ignore the rudeness in love! Yet > someone > on here said meat eaters were found to be mean??? LOL > >> > _______________________ > > Hi, , > Check this out from Dr. Mercola's website. It's a pretty good write-up about > vegetarianism and the myths of it. > > http://www.mercola.com/2000/apr/2/vegetarian_myths.htm > > Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2002 Report Share Posted January 14, 2002 I've seen some cows and apes be pretty mean, too...*smile* > > > Meat eating > >> > > How rude we find them to be, yet we ignore the rudeness in love! Yet > >someone > > on here said meat eaters were found to be mean??? LOL > > >> > > _______________________ > Some famous vegeterians of the twentyth century.... > Stalin > Hitler > Pol Pot > just a little trivia.... > hey I was a vegerian too... > There is a difference between an animal rights activist and a vegeterian. > ct. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2002 Report Share Posted January 15, 2002 This is incorrect, sorry to say. No Pope has ever changed any wording of Holy Scripture. In fact, according to the recent find of the dead sea scrolls just a few decades ago, which were written in the first century according to carbon dating, they match what we have today as the King Version to 99% accaracy. So, yes, you are wrong about that. Study for yourself and see. The reason I use the Bible for my 'ultimate position of behavior' is based on Faith instead of feeling. Some are atheiest and some have faith. To each his own. For faiths sake there is nothing to loose. For athiest, hope that you are right because there may be eternity to loose. I choose faith, no brainer. :-) Eat, drink, and be merry. We only have around 100 yrs of life with is as fast as a breath of air. Just ask any grandpa. haha We should enjoy what we eat but also not indulge and over eat. Moderation is the key to every religious belief anyway. Eat meat, or not eat meat. Enjoy, don't judge, be happy. We are not here to talk about God, scripture, or vegitarian vs. meat eating, but we are here because we all have a common problem of pain caused by GB problems. We wouldn't be here if we didn't have some malfunction of our GB or digestive system. Let's try and encourage each other on methods of flushing and dieting whether their diet includes meat or not. Thanks. Barry. > > << Also to say that the Holy Bible " is only a book that 'purports' > to be > > the word of God edited many times to eliminate and change wordng " > > could be a stab at someones faith and could result in debate. >> > > _________________ > > > > I agree with you. I just took it as that person hasn't studied it > and proven > > otherwise. There's lots of people like that. > > Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2002 Report Share Posted January 15, 2002 I just signed on here for the first time to find out some information on gallstones. I'm not sure what you were trying to say about the wording of the Bible, but I am a Christen and a meat eater...there isn't anything wrong with either of them. I you are not a Christian and are making fun of those who are, then you should rethink yourself!!! This site is for gallstone support, not for your personal opinions! Sorry if sounding rude! Was offended! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2002 Report Share Posted January 15, 2002 I'm not sure what you were trying to say about the wording of the Bible, but I am a Christen and a meat eater...there isn't anything wrong with either of them. >> ________________ Hello, Who are you speaking to? I'm a Christian Yahwehist, a meat eater and Scripture lover? Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2002 Report Share Posted January 15, 2002 OK...I guess it's time to ask the question. I'm not here because I have a gall bladder problem. I'm here because my 19 year old daughter who eats too much dairy and decided to start eating meat a couple of years ago came down with a gall bladder attack. I want to ask the group: are there any vegetarians here who have had a gall bladder attack? I mean vegans, I guess, as dairy has been shown to be a cause of gall bladder problems. Does any one here know of a vegan who has had a gall bladder attack? I don't. > > We are not here to talk about God, scripture, or vegitarian vs. meat > eating, but we are here because we all have a common problem of pain > caused by GB problems. We wouldn't be here if we didn't have some > malfunction of our GB or digestive system. Let's try and encourage > each other on methods of flushing and dieting whether their diet > includes meat or not. > > Thanks. > Barry. > > > > > > > > << Also to say that the Holy Bible " is only a book > that 'purports' > > to be > > > the word of God edited many times to eliminate and change > wordng " > > > could be a stab at someones faith and could result in debate. >> > > > _________________ > > > > > > I agree with you. I just took it as that person hasn't studied > it > > and proven > > > otherwise. There's lots of people like that. > > > Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 Maybe vegitarians have had problems but haven't found this site yet. This site is for people to find relief from GB attacks and how to cleanse the liver and GB instead of opting for surgery. Are you here to find out information for your daughter or are you only here to put people down who have GB pain and are not vegitarians? Do you want to use this info to bash your daughter for starting to eat meats? Why are you really here? Are you looking for relief of some sort? Maybe you should direct your daughter here so that she can get help instead of talking about not eating any meats. We are here to support and help those who want it, not for those to use this as a debate whether being a vegitarian is good, bad, sinful, etc,etc. You say you are here because of your daughter's GB problem but then instead of asking how to help her, you keep harping on about this vegitarian issue. Sounds to me like you want to get more info to support your cause and tell your daughter, 'See I told you so'. Why would you tell us about being here because of your daughter and then the question you ask is not for her benefit but just wether anyone knows of any vegitarian with stones? What are you getting at really? Do you want to help your daughter heal her body with cleansing or are you only looking for support to be vegitarian? I just don't get where you're coming from. Does anyone? Barry. > > > > << Also to say that the Holy Bible " is only a book > > that 'purports' > > > to be > > > > the word of God edited many times to eliminate and change > > wordng " > > > > could be a stab at someones faith and could result in debate. > >> > > > > _________________ > > > > > > > > I agree with you. I just took it as that person hasn't studied > > it > > > and proven > > > > otherwise. There's lots of people like that. > > > > Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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