Re: Stressful home environment rewires kid's brains

[Guest guest]

Your story here is very interesting.

 

this may sound like avoidence... but I would tell your sister to leave good

enough alone.

 

If she is living without the anxiety. She may be better off that way. I know

that feelings burried deep may re-surface. However if she has them tucked away,

with her anxiety, etc. She may be better off that way. I would hate to see all

these tucked away feelings be brought up, resulting in her being an absolute

mess.

 

Take care

 

Narak

Subject: Stressful home environment rewires kid's brains

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Saturday, December 6, 2008, 5:48 PM

Since discovering that our mother is mentally ill, my Sister decided

to go into therapy herself to help her deal with her own issues, since

we are now experiencing the stress of giving our nada boundaries and

rules for the first time.

The psychologist told Sister about a new treatment that is supposed to

help improve the ability to concentrate and focus. Although Sister is

intelligent, hard-working and successful, she was frustrated with her

life-long inability to learn certain subjects (she wants to go for an

advanced degree) and this new brain treatment sounded intriguing! The

treatment involved an initial test that showing how and where the

various parts of the brain react to certain stimuli, and afterward the

psychologist said he had never seen anyone's reading come out so high

in the anxiety/nervous area.

This astonished Sister, who did not consciously feel anxious or

nervous at all! And they tried the test twice, on two different

occasions, and it came out the same.

In light of how we were raised, Sister said she and her psychologist

theorize that Sister must have totally and completely dissociated from

her true feelings of abject fear around nada as a survival mechanism,

because if Sister reacted (if she was shrieking in terror, pleading,

trying to run) it would get her even worse and more prolonged abuse.

(I too remember the " SHUT UP OR I'LL GIVE YOU SOMETHING TO REALLY CRY

ABOUT " threats.)

So, in effect, as a little child Sister froze like a statue both

inside and outside when nada would begin raging, and part of Sister

never thawed out.

For example, Sister says she has absolutely no startle reaction, ever,

which is odd but not causing her any particular problem. What *is*

causing Sister frustration is the difficulty concentrating on

learning certain things like foreign languages. So, something about

certain academic subjects triggers the original dissociation reaction,

apparently!

Now my Sister is trying to decide whether to go ahead with this

therapy or not, because the psychologist advised her that this

particular kind of therapy could very well unlock her " frozen "

fear/anxiety reactions and she would become conscious of them again.

He said that Sister could wind up with all kinds of things like

nervous tics, a strong startle reaction, etc. Not a very pleasant

side-effect.

I know, because that's the direction I went in as a child: I, for

whatever reason (I'm simply a different individual, different

birth-order, whatever) did not dissociate and could feel my fear when

nada went after me. And I did wind up developing into an extremely

nervous, anxious, hyper-alert person. To this day I have a strong

startle reflex to unexpected loud noises or sudden movements towards

me. Its actually painful and it takes a while for my heart to

slow back down afterward. I still bite my nails, have occasional

facial tics, and other unpleasant, chronic side effects that get worse

under stress.

So, I believe our own natural physiological nervous systems, part of

our *brains*, got rewired badly from daily exposure over years and

years to our highly stressful home environment (which I have likened

to living in a POW camp) at the mercy of an unstable, unpredictable,

violent, angry, mentally ill person.

That's why I keep harping on my pet issue: I wish that all children

could be rescued from their mentally ill parents and raised in safe,

calm, nurturing, stable, healthy homes. I think " Cluster B "

personality disordered people are WAY too dangerous to be *around*

children unsupervised, let alone raise their own children or

grandchildren. Although I haven't done any research to corroborate

this theory yet, it would not surprise me if the majority of males who

commit incest and rape are " Cluster B " narcissists, borderlines or

sociopaths. Woudn't surprise me at all.

-Annie

[Guest guest]

Sister is definitely thinking it over carefully, she's not just

jumping into it. Not being able to learn foreign languages (and she

has tried for years: in high school, learn-at-home courses, and in

college) will prevent her from getting her advanced degree (and

possibly job promotions) but on the other hand, who wants to acquire

anxiety-produced facial tics, or jumpiness, or a stutter, or

shakiness, or a heart-stopping startle reaction if you don't have to?

Amazing what our brains come up with to help us survive abuse, without

us even being aware of it!

-Annie

>

>

> Subject: Stressful home environment rewires

kid's brains

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Saturday, December 6, 2008, 5:48 PM

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Since discovering that our mother is mentally ill, my Sister decided

> to go into therapy herself to help her deal with her own issues, since

> we are now experiencing the stress of giving our nada boundaries and

> rules for the first time.

>

> The psychologist told Sister about a new treatment that is supposed to

> help improve the ability to concentrate and focus. Although Sister is

> intelligent, hard-working and successful, she was frustrated with her

> life-long inability to learn certain subjects (she wants to go for an

> advanced degree) and this new brain treatment sounded intriguing! The

> treatment involved an initial test that showing how and where the

> various parts of the brain react to certain stimuli, and afterward the

> psychologist said he had never seen anyone's reading come out so high

> in the anxiety/nervous area.

>

> This astonished Sister, who did not consciously feel anxious or

> nervous at all! And they tried the test twice, on two different

> occasions, and it came out the same.

>

> In light of how we were raised, Sister said she and her psychologist

> theorize that Sister must have totally and completely dissociated from

> her true feelings of abject fear around nada as a survival mechanism,

> because if Sister reacted (if she was shrieking in terror, pleading,

> trying to run) it would get her even worse and more prolonged abuse.

> (I too remember the " SHUT UP OR I'LL GIVE YOU SOMETHING TO REALLY CRY

> ABOUT " threats.)

>

> So, in effect, as a little child Sister froze like a statue both

> inside and outside when nada would begin raging, and part of Sister

> never thawed out.

>

> For example, Sister says she has absolutely no startle reaction, ever,

> which is odd but not causing her any particular problem. What *is*

> causing Sister frustration is the difficulty concentrating on

> learning certain things like foreign languages. So, something about

> certain academic subjects triggers the original dissociation reaction,

> apparently!

>

> Now my Sister is trying to decide whether to go ahead with this

> therapy or not, because the psychologist advised her that this

> particular kind of therapy could very well unlock her " frozen "

> fear/anxiety reactions and she would become conscious of them again.

> He said that Sister could wind up with all kinds of things like

> nervous tics, a strong startle reaction, etc. Not a very pleasant

> side-effect.

>

> I know, because that's the direction I went in as a child: I, for

> whatever reason (I'm simply a different individual, different

> birth-order, whatever) did not dissociate and could feel my fear when

> nada went after me. And I did wind up developing into an extremely

> nervous, anxious, hyper-alert person. To this day I have a strong

> startle reflex to unexpected loud noises or sudden movements towards

> me. Its actually painful and it takes a while for my heart to

> slow back down afterward. I still bite my nails, have occasional

> facial tics, and other unpleasant, chronic side effects that get worse

> under stress.

>

> So, I believe our own natural physiological nervous systems, part of

> our *brains*, got rewired badly from daily exposure over years and

> years to our highly stressful home environment (which I have likened

> to living in a POW camp) at the mercy of an unstable, unpredictable,

> violent, angry, mentally ill person.

>

> That's why I keep harping on my pet issue: I wish that all children

> could be rescued from their mentally ill parents and raised in safe,

> calm, nurturing, stable, healthy homes. I think " Cluster B "

> personality disordered people are WAY too dangerous to be *around*

> children unsupervised, let alone raise their own children or

> grandchildren. Although I haven't done any research to corroborate

> this theory yet, it would not surprise me if the majority of males who

> commit incest and rape are " Cluster B " narcissists, borderlines or

> sociopaths. Woudn't surprise me at all.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ah! That is very cool: it sounds to me like the process you have

developed for yourself is very much like " desensitization therapy "

that trains people to overcome their phobias!

Like, if you are terrified of spiders, you start out by looking at

still pictures of spiders until you can do that without it upsetting

you: heart rate/bp normal. Then you look at movies of spiders until

*that* doesn't bother you. Then you look at a fake, toy spider and

then you handle it, then you look at a more realistic fake spider and

handle it, then a real spider but a tiny one, far away, and gradually

move it closer to you, etc., etc.

That's what you're doing with your FOO: desensitization! That sounds

like a very intelligent and intriguing method of " divorcing " them,

although it also sounds very, well, brutal to yourself, like, " trial

by fire " or " going into the lion's den " , over and over.

I suppose I was thinking (and it now sounds like an incorrect

perception on my part) that you were " stuck " at the " toy spider " stage

(in a manner of speaking) and could not get past it, when you wrote

that you were frustrated that you had been manipulated again into

being entirely responsible for an assignment involving your nada's

care, that you had wanted only minor involvement with, if any.

But its true that it is a process: this reclaiming of ourselves, and

the road isn't always straight, and the progress isn't always steady.

Your observations on dissociating RE my Sister's situation are

interesting; I don't think Sister has tried " body work " , or if she has

she hasn't mentioned it to me. I'll ask her if she has tried it, and

maybe it could help her develop her concentration without unleashing

the unwanted side effects of re-connecting with the ability to feel

anxiety feelings.

Thanks!

-Annie

> > >

> > > From: anuria67854 <anuria-67854@>

> > > Subject: Stressful home environment rewires

> > kid's brains

> > > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > Date: Saturday, December 6, 2008, 5:48 PM

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Since discovering that our mother is mentally ill, my Sister

> decided

> > > to go into therapy herself to help her deal with her own issues,

> since

> > > we are now experiencing the stress of giving our nada boundaries

> and

> > > rules for the first time.

> > >

> > > The psychologist told Sister about a new treatment that is

> supposed to

> > > help improve the ability to concentrate and focus. Although

> Sister is

> > > intelligent, hard-working and successful, she was frustrated with

> her

> > > life-long inability to learn certain subjects (she wants to go

> for an

> > > advanced degree) and this new brain treatment sounded intriguing!

> The

> > > treatment involved an initial test that showing how and where the

> > > various parts of the brain react to certain stimuli, and

> afterward the

> > > psychologist said he had never seen anyone's reading come out so

> high

> > > in the anxiety/nervous area.

> > >

> > > This astonished Sister, who did not consciously feel anxious or

> > > nervous at all! And they tried the test twice, on two different

> > > occasions, and it came out the same.

> > >

> > > In light of how we were raised, Sister said she and her

> psychologist

> > > theorize that Sister must have totally and completely dissociated

> from

> > > her true feelings of abject fear around nada as a survival

> mechanism,

> > > because if Sister reacted (if she was shrieking in terror,

> pleading,

> > > trying to run) it would get her even worse and more prolonged

> abuse.

> > > (I too remember the " SHUT UP OR I'LL GIVE YOU SOMETHING TO REALLY

> CRY

> > > ABOUT " threats.)

> > >

> > > So, in effect, as a little child Sister froze like a statue both

> > > inside and outside when nada would begin raging, and part of

> Sister

> > > never thawed out.

> > >

> > > For example, Sister says she has absolutely no startle reaction,

> ever,

> > > which is odd but not causing her any particular problem. What *is*

> > > causing Sister frustration is the difficulty concentrating on

> > > learning certain things like foreign languages. So, something

> about

> > > certain academic subjects triggers the original dissociation

> reaction,

> > > apparently!

> > >

> > > Now my Sister is trying to decide whether to go ahead with this

> > > therapy or not, because the psychologist advised her that this

> > > particular kind of therapy could very well unlock her " frozen "

> > > fear/anxiety reactions and she would become conscious of them

> again.

> > > He said that Sister could wind up with all kinds of things like

> > > nervous tics, a strong startle reaction, etc. Not a very pleasant

> > > side-effect.

> > >

> > > I know, because that's the direction I went in as a child: I, for

> > > whatever reason (I'm simply a different individual, different

> > > birth-order, whatever) did not dissociate and could feel my fear

> when

> > > nada went after me. And I did wind up developing into an extremely

> > > nervous, anxious, hyper-alert person. To this day I have a strong

> > > startle reflex to unexpected loud noises or sudden movements

> towards

> > > me. Its actually painful and it takes a while for my heart to

> > > slow back down afterward. I still bite my nails, have occasional

> > > facial tics, and other unpleasant, chronic side effects that get

> worse

> > > under stress.

> > >

> > > So, I believe our own natural physiological nervous systems, part

> of

> > > our *brains*, got rewired badly from daily exposure over years and

> > > years to our highly stressful home environment (which I have

> likened

> > > to living in a POW camp) at the mercy of an unstable,

> unpredictable,

> > > violent, angry, mentally ill person.

> > >

> > > That's why I keep harping on my pet issue: I wish that all

> children

> > > could be rescued from their mentally ill parents and raised in

> safe,

> > > calm, nurturing, stable, healthy homes. I think " Cluster B "

> > > personality disordered people are WAY too dangerous to be *around*

> > > children unsupervised, let alone raise their own children or

> > > grandchildren. Although I haven't done any research to corroborate

> > > this theory yet, it would not surprise me if the majority of

> males who

> > > commit incest and rape are " Cluster B " narcissists, borderlines or

> > > sociopaths. Woudn't surprise me at all.

> > >

> > > -Annie

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Grace,

Just wanted to share that I also have been ashamed of myself my entire life for

never standing up to my nada , and then to my brother. I have also felt like a

coward, like a puppy with his tail between his legs, too shamed to stand up

straight, thinking everyone can see right through me and know I am a loser.  If

I can't stand up to my own nada how could I ever have any respect for myself 

and even expect anyone else to respect me.  And geographical re-location doesn't

remove the effect from you-it is in you no matter where you go and yes, I also

seem to attract those very same kinds of people in my life.  But, aren't we

always the most comfortable with what is the most familiar-good or bad.  When I

was younger rigtht up to the present I have always seemed to attract people who

seemed a bit " off " and felt more comfortable with them than someone who appeared

to be mentally healthy and happy. I have always felt very 'damaged " and that if

anyone

really got to know me they would see how f-cked up I am so I preferred to keep

at a distance with people.  I used to see friends hanging out, relaxed, hugging

each other, really caring and longed for that kind of friendship  I also saw

people in relationships where you could just feel the love and warmth between

them and I longed to experience that as well, but, somehow I felt I must have

built this protective invisible barrier around myself where noone ever felt that

way towards me nor me towards anyone. I kind of think of it as a protective

shield where noone can get too close to hurt me and I don't want to get close

enough to see what lurks behind the image of the person I thought I knew.  I

guess what I mean is at a distance everyone can be great, I don't want to know

anything else as I saw up front how hypocritical those images can be in my

mother, whom everyone thinks is the greatest and how fortunate and blessed I am

to have the kind of mother

I have.  I heard it my entire life and how I was terrible the way I reacted or

spoke and I should be grateful for what I had.  It has gotten to the point where

I felt I couldn't even jokingly say anything derogative about my mother without

someone jumping all over me and I would silently think.....if only you knew. 

Yes, I am the " bad " one, the forever ungrateful , the one who doesn't realize

how good they have it and I'd swallow it all sinking deeper into self loathing. 

If the whole world says something, then it can only be me, right?  I think for

the past 7 years i finally turned all of that off, I can't defend myself

anymore, I can't justify my existance to anyone, I am who I am and whoever

thinks what they think is fine by me..  I spent too many yearts of my life

trying to be that perfect daughter, that perfect girlfriend, that perfect

sister, that perfect friend.  One thing I do know for sure is when you do take

even a " baby step " in speaking

up for yourself, confronting someone you feel so good.  It's like a slow

process of re-building your self esteem that others have slowly peeled away.  I

enjoy reading your posts and am learning from you. I also now feel good about

being " selfish " in regards to my nada.  I always was so laden with guilt. I felt

I couldn't buy something for myself-i'd buy something for my nada instead. I

couldn't have fun w/o my nada because poor nada had such a miserable life and

how could i have fun w/o her.  I started to realize that no matter what i did it

would never be enough, i would never get recognized for anything except every

bad thing i did or my nada perceived i did.  it's like anything good was totally

washed away all of the time.  I gave up after my 50th b'day.  I still fall into

trying to please her but i have no expecations anymore. I know i can be

wonderful to her one minute and the next i am the worst person that ever lived.

I am numb to that

now. Is it okay to be numb? I don't know.It's the only way  can be in contact

with her otherwise I'd be crying my eyes out everyday and wishing I was dead.

Sorry about the change in font-don't know how i did that?  Anyway, thanks

grace

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 5:26:04 PM

Subject: Re: Stressful home environment rewires kid's brains

Hi Annie

Just got back from my 'session' lol.

Ah desensitization - ok - well it wasnt an intentional plan - its

just I was planning on going LC with my family and moving away and

then nada got sick and I derailed, the old love bullet hit me. So,

Im trying to make this a positive for me - some good from it and its

really helping me as is the group.

I suppose, realising that even when I get away from them my whole

life - the effects of them is in me. And I attract more BPD and NPD

people into my life - for me maybe its different from others.

You made lots of interesting points. First though, something occured

to me and Im wondering if others have had this too. I realise that

by never standing up to them - that Ive been ashamed of myself my

whole life, on top of the shaming they did to me.. Ive always felt

like a coward. This is the first time Im standing up for myself (in

tiny ways - but noticeable, nothing spoken aloud). Another thing is

Ive never had any pride in myself or my achievements. LIke it didnt

matter what I achieved, it meant nothing to me. Im getting a little

pride back. I get pride now from the smallest thing - like holding my

own in a confrontation and handling it well.

So many memories are triggered reading other's stories and by

visiting nada - I wake up in the morning with 'out of the blue' stuff

and like I was driving along and was thinking of the time I hit nada

back - I never thought of that since it happened.

I remember back to that time I hit nada. I must have been about 13

or 14. I was left alone at home as my siblings had left before

that. I remember she had me pinned in the corner between the oven

and the door and was hitting me - in the face and head. I kneed her

in the groin. One big reflex with added welly. I remember reading

in the book 'Understanding the borderline mother' how the kid prefers

to take their agression out on themesleves rather than the mother -

an instinctive thing.

She never mentioned it and she never hit me or the others again..

Even when my brother was grown at that stage, she'd belt him across

the head passing him as he was sitting at the table or something. He

was 6ft 4 lol. I remember the red rage boil up to his face - he

never hit back. If nada walked into a room - he left - he was all-

good. I remember being so afraid of having hit my mother I thought I

was the most horrible person and I never hit anyone since, like I was

afraid of myself. Maybe why I never stood up for myself. I went the

other way.

I so envy you and the other group members with siblings to confide

and collude with - thats lovely and its wonderful.

So I suppose Im really just trying to concentrate on myself and using

the 'visiting my mother' as an excuse - which is good I suppose. It

takes the focus off her manic efforts at attention. Today I awoke to

my father ringing me, my sisters texts - another nada emergency - she

leaves the nursing home tomorrow so another need to act out.

They'll bring her to hospital tomorrow. The good thing is I ignored

the calls (OMG Im so proud of myself), replied to my npdsisters text

saying 'oh so you will be visiting her now then' - very funny - just

placing the drama back on her (they wanted me to deal with her). And

then when the drama was over - I dropped in for a 5 minute hello

tonight lol. Im sooooo proud of myself.

The funniest thing to happen so far is my npd sister is going to wash

my nadas hair tomorrow lol.. Its the funniest thing Ive ever heard -

a narcissist wash my mothers hair. She wouldnt even wash her own

childs hair - she cant do anything for anyone - so I guess my little

stands are meaning strange things are happenning lol lol I will not

be visiting when that is happening lol

At the start, when her illness was diagnosed, I was so concerned for

her and was showing her love - I cut that out pretty quick. We'll

see how things go. Its not safe to love her. And I also wanted to be

the 'hero' and give give give as I was programmed to do - the only

way I got any positive attention ever from parents. But funnily

enough Im finding it easy to be selfish lol. I now 'get' the

pleasures of not giving!

Yes - brutal to myself lol. Yes maybe I'll be saving alot of visits

to professionals in the future and having to 'imagine' how I feel

around my mother.. I'll have it recorded lol. Maybe lol, maybe not.

But isnt it the same as what lots of people are doing here -

recognising their patterns on trips to nada n stuff. We'll see - I

have to remember not to 'connect' with her as if shes a real mother

in any way - thats the trick - not to fall for that.

Yeh - when you say about being stuck in the toy spider thing - yeh,

Im only starting, and being around her provokes such strong sh*t that

I dont know where its coming from - its all new to me - I never

realised I felt these things. I always had a front up, even to

myself.

> that you were frustrated that you had been manipulated again into

> being entirely responsible for an assignment involving your nada's

> care, that you had wanted only minor involvement with, if any.

Yes, thats true - thats what it's like, Im just going through each

encounter and trying to learn from it. So, Im sure there will be

more of that and other things as I learn.

Yeh, the bodywork with a good professional is great. One thing that

I find that helps in a time of stress is to lie on the floor on my

back, with my knees bent, feet on floor, head under a couple of books

and begin come into contact with the floor. See what I notice. Id

love to meditate more also.

Another poster here mentioned maybe leaving 'well enough alone' its a

good observation. For me I would have always appeared very unfazed

on the outside to people - but inside I was always shaking. And I

found it hard to even admit that to myself. I dont shake inside or

outside anymore - except around nada or other bpds (as far as I

know). Im a good bpd barometer!

Thanks again for the observations. Great to read the posts. I

never realised I had the right to stand up to nada. Imagine that.

Have a good night

Grace

[Guest guest]

Hi Grace,

That photo of the bluejay was so expressive of what you have been saying. 

Learning to fly is the step towards freedom. I always felt what seems to come so

naturally to others is a struggle for me. It is like having to re-learn

everything I thought I already knew.  When I do try something new like

confronting someone about something I feel such anxiety , but, I know I have to

do it.  If I don't I am going to feel worthless and reinforce negative feelings

about myself to myself. When I am able to do it I feel such a sense of relief 

to get whatever is bothering me off my chest. I realized how unfair I have

always been to other people by holding things in, stuffing my feelings, and

pretending everything is okay when, in fact, it was far from okay.  I expected

people to read my mind and when they didn't I felt hurt. When I felt hurt I

distanced myself from the person and they had no clue what had been going on in

my cluttered mind. I think because of

the way my family was it was always better left unsaid, pretend it didn't

happen and just be happy if there was some peace. Whenever I did try to express

my feelings or confront my nada she would  bring up what everyone else says or

thinks about me, make comparisons that made no sense, bring up examples that had

nothing to do with what I had said and I would get so lost in the confusion of

her words that I would wish I never opened my mouth in the first place. Then of

course there was always the fear of the outcome, would it even be worthwhile,

could I withstand the confrontation.  I would always find myself so worn down it

was just easier to accept the unacceptable than try to fight a no win battle.  I

find each time I do something that may be a little uncomfortable for me it is

well worth the outcome.  You do feel great. What someone else may take for

granted is such a big thing for me. And if you related to alot of what I wrote

it's a big thing

for you too so you should be feeling great!

I talk about alot of things I'm going to do (but, never do) so I can imagine how

fantastic you must feel for not just thinking about doing something, but,

actually doing it.  Two congratulations to you!

What I meant by numb is like I kind of tune myself out, I can't let words

penetrate into me, it's almost like not hearing , but, mostly, not taking

everything in so deeply it effects me for days after.   I think it's sort of a

state of mind  to shield myself from any more pain from people who I thought

were supposed to care about me.  (and who professed how much they cared when

their words and actions spoke differently). I think I'm rambling now so I will

stop. 

If you feel like that photo it sounds like you're headed in the right direction!

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Monday, December 8, 2008 10:08:46 AM

Subject: Re: Stressful home environment rewires kid's brains

Hiya Lorliz

Are you by any chance reading my mind? So amazing your posts -

exactly what Ive gone through and how I've experienced nada and her

effects on me.

When you say:

>One thing I do know for sure is when you do take even a " baby

>step " .in speaking

> up for yourself, confronting someone you feel so good. It's like

>a slow process of re-building your self esteem that others

>have .slowly peeled away

I never knew I felt shame my whole life up till now. How could I not

with the 'you should be ashamed of yourself' bellowed at me daily? I

knew I was different somehow from others - never pegged it on me

feeling shame.

Im so happy someone can see the huge challenge is has been for me to

even take a tiny step forward to reclaim my right to myself.

Standing up for myself even in little ways is so great!

I cant believe the feeling of pride that wells up inside me!!! Last

night again - just setting up that new group was a big step for me -

to put myself out there like that. I just felt so much pride - not

in what Id done - but that I HAD DONE IT!!! I had done something for

myself - I was BEING MYSELF!!!! OMG it feels great!!!! All these

little things - I cant wait to do the next thing now!!!

You know if I was to write my experiences and feelings I would be

cutting and pasting your post!

I dont know if I felt 'damaged' but I definately didnt feel normal -

I always felt that I was the one person on the earth who wasnt the

same as everyone, that I didnt deserve anything.

On top of all you speak of I had my nada living through me - so she

made me do things that I really wasnt able for - I had to public

speaking at church every week etc. So I was crushed down and then

made to stand up and pretend I was normal to everyone - thats where

the shaking inside came from, I wasnt allowed to show it.

Yes I was also afraid to let anyone know me cause I wasnt 'me',

probably why I moved places every year or so.

You speak of how you are the 'bad' one - I thought I was the good one

lol - I think both good and bad. Good when I served and did 'what I

was told when I was told'.. Then WHAM - As I kid when I saw my mother

Id sing 'woo hoo here she comes, watch out now she'll chew you uppp,

oh oh here she comes, she a child eater.'

I soooooo love when you say:

>>>>>I think for the past 7 years i finally turned all of that off, I

can't defend myself anymore, I can't justify my existance to anyone,

I am who I am and whoever thinks what they think is fine by me.. 

Great to hear your thoughts and experiences are similiar ~(you know

what I mean lol)!! Although, Im not NC yet and the shit is hitting

the fan with nadas illness.

>>>>>>>> I also now feel good about being " selfish " in regards to my

nada.  I always was so laden with guilt.

CONGRATULATIONS! !!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

>>>>>>>>>>>> I gave up after my 50th b'day.  I still fall into trying

to please her but i have no expecations anymore.

>>>>>>>>>>>Is it okay to be numb? I don't know.It's the only way  can

>be in contact with her otherwise I'd be crying my eyes out

>everyday .and wishing I was dead.

Is is ok to be numb. I dont know if I know what you're talking

about - what I think for me is that I have figured out the hard was

over the past 6 weeks in 'forced visitation' with nada - that I have

to shield myself big time - very hard even to look her in the eye -

can not connect in any way or Im f*ked. So numb ? I duno - numb

how - maybe you can teach me a technique to shield myself and I'll

share what I do that works when forced (well chosen forcedness) to be

around her. YUCK

This is how I feel now inside

http://www.flickr. com/photos/ danielmejia/ 2410816575/ ?

addedcomment= 1#comment7215761 0909576642

Grace

>

>

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> From: happyout <happyout@.. .>

> To: WTOAdultChildren1@ yahoogroups. com

> Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 5:26:04 PM

> Subject: Re: Stressful home environment rewires

kid's brains

>

>

> Hi Annie

> Just got back from my 'session' lol.

>

> Ah desensitization - ok - well it wasnt an intentional plan - its

> just I was planning on going LC with my family and moving away and

> then nada got sick and I derailed, the old love bullet hit me. So,

> Im trying to make this a positive for me - some good from it and

its

> really helping me as is the group.

>

> I suppose, realising that even when I get away from them my whole

> life - the effects of them is in me. And I attract more BPD and NPD

> people into my life - for me maybe its different from others.

>

> You made lots of interesting points. First though, something

occured

> to me and Im wondering if others have had this too. I realise that

> by never standing up to them - that Ive been ashamed of myself my

> whole life, on top of the shaming they did to me.. Ive always felt

> like a coward. This is the first time Im standing up for myself (in

> tiny ways - but noticeable, nothing spoken aloud). Another thing is

> Ive never had any pride in myself or my achievements. LIke it didnt

> matter what I achieved, it meant nothing to me. Im getting a little

> pride back. I get pride now from the smallest thing - like holding

my

> own in a confrontation and handling it well.

>

> So many memories are triggered reading other's stories and by

> visiting nada - I wake up in the morning with 'out of the blue'

stuff

> and like I was driving along and was thinking of the time I hit

nada

> back - I never thought of that since it happened.

>

> I remember back to that time I hit nada. I must have been about 13

> or 14. I was left alone at home as my siblings had left before

> that. I remember she had me pinned in the corner between the oven

> and the door and was hitting me - in the face and head. I kneed her

> in the groin. One big reflex with added welly. I remember reading

> in the book 'Understanding the borderline mother' how the kid

prefers

> to take their agression out on themesleves rather than the mother -

> an instinctive thing.

>

> She never mentioned it and she never hit me or the others again..

> Even when my brother was grown at that stage, she'd belt him across

> the head passing him as he was sitting at the table or something.

He

> was 6ft 4 lol. I remember the red rage boil up to his face - he

> never hit back. If nada walked into a room - he left - he was all-

> good. I remember being so afraid of having hit my mother I thought

I

> was the most horrible person and I never hit anyone since, like I

was

> afraid of myself. Maybe why I never stood up for myself. I went the

> other way.

>

> I so envy you and the other group members with siblings to confide

> and collude with - thats lovely and its wonderful.

>

> So I suppose Im really just trying to concentrate on myself and

using

> the 'visiting my mother' as an excuse - which is good I suppose. It

> takes the focus off her manic efforts at attention. Today I awoke

to

> my father ringing me, my sisters texts - another nada emergency -

she

> leaves the nursing home tomorrow so another need to act out.

>

> They'll bring her to hospital tomorrow. The good thing is I ignored

> the calls (OMG Im so proud of myself), replied to my npdsisters

text

> saying 'oh so you will be visiting her now then' - very funny -

just

> placing the drama back on her (they wanted me to deal with her).

And

> then when the drama was over - I dropped in for a 5 minute hello

> tonight lol. Im sooooo proud of myself.

>

> The funniest thing to happen so far is my npd sister is going to

wash

> my nadas hair tomorrow lol.. Its the funniest thing Ive ever heard -

> a narcissist wash my mothers hair. She wouldnt even wash her own

> childs hair - she cant do anything for anyone - so I guess my

little

> stands are meaning strange things are happenning lol lol I will not

> be visiting when that is happening lol

>

> At the start, when her illness was diagnosed, I was so concerned

for

> her and was showing her love - I cut that out pretty quick. We'll

> see how things go. Its not safe to love her. And I also wanted to

be

> the 'hero' and give give give as I was programmed to do - the only

> way I got any positive attention ever from parents. But funnily

> enough Im finding it easy to be selfish lol. I now 'get' the

> pleasures of not giving!

>

> Yes - brutal to myself lol. Yes maybe I'll be saving alot of visits

> to professionals in the future and having to 'imagine' how I feel

> around my mother.. I'll have it recorded lol. Maybe lol, maybe not.

>

> But isnt it the same as what lots of people are doing here -

> recognising their patterns on trips to nada n stuff. We'll see - I

> have to remember not to 'connect' with her as if shes a real mother

> in any way - thats the trick - not to fall for that.

>

> Yeh - when you say about being stuck in the toy spider thing - yeh,

> Im only starting, and being around her provokes such strong sh*t

that

> I dont know where its coming from - its all new to me - I never

> realised I felt these things. I always had a front up, even to

> myself.

>

> > that you were frustrated that you had been manipulated again into

> > being entirely responsible for an assignment involving your nada's

> > care, that you had wanted only minor involvement with, if any.

>

> Yes, thats true - thats what it's like, Im just going through each

> encounter and trying to learn from it. So, Im sure there will be

> more of that and other things as I learn.

>

> Yeh, the bodywork with a good professional is great. One thing that

> I find that helps in a time of stress is to lie on the floor on my

> back, with my knees bent, feet on floor, head under a couple of

books

> and begin come into contact with the floor. See what I notice. Id

> love to meditate more also.

>

> Another poster here mentioned maybe leaving 'well enough alone' its

a

> good observation. For me I would have always appeared very unfazed

> on the outside to people - but inside I was always shaking. And I

> found it hard to even admit that to myself. I dont shake inside or

> outside anymore - except around nada or other bpds (as far as I

> know). Im a good bpd barometer!

>

> Thanks again for the observations. Great to read the posts. I

> never realised I had the right to stand up to nada. Imagine that.

>

> Have a good night

> Grace

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Grace, can you tell us what the body work is you're doing?

-Deanna

>

> Hi Annie

> Just got back from my 'session' lol.

>

> Ah desensitization - ok - well it wasnt an intentional plan - its

> just I was planning on going LC with my family and moving away and

> then nada got sick and I derailed, the old love bullet hit me. So,

> Im trying to make this a positive for me - some good from it and its

> really helping me as is the group.

>

> I suppose, realising that even when I get away from them my whole

> life - the effects of them is in me. And I attract more BPD and NPD

> people into my life - for me maybe its different from others.

>

> You made lots of interesting points. First though, something occured

> to me and Im wondering if others have had this too. I realise that

> by never standing up to them - that Ive been ashamed of myself my

> whole life, on top of the shaming they did to me. Ive always felt

> like a coward. This is the first time Im standing up for myself (in

> tiny ways - but noticeable, nothing spoken aloud). Another thing is

> Ive never had any pride in myself or my achievements. LIke it didnt

> matter what I achieved, it meant nothing to me. Im getting a little

> pride back. I get pride now from the smallest thing - like holding my

> own in a confrontation and handling it well.

>

> So many memories are triggered reading other's stories and by

> visiting nada - I wake up in the morning with 'out of the blue' stuff

> and like I was driving along and was thinking of the time I hit nada

> back - I never thought of that since it happened.

>

> I remember back to that time I hit nada. I must have been about 13

> or 14. I was left alone at home as my siblings had left before

> that. I remember she had me pinned in the corner between the oven

> and the door and was hitting me - in the face and head. I kneed her

> in the groin. One big reflex with added welly. I remember reading

> in the book 'Understanding the borderline mother' how the kid prefers

> to take their agression out on themesleves rather than the mother -

> an instinctive thing.

>

> She never mentioned it and she never hit me or the others again.

> Even when my brother was grown at that stage, she'd belt him across

> the head passing him as he was sitting at the table or something. He

> was 6ft 4 lol. I remember the red rage boil up to his face - he

> never hit back. If nada walked into a room - he left - he was all-

> good. I remember being so afraid of having hit my mother I thought I

> was the most horrible person and I never hit anyone since, like I was

> afraid of myself. Maybe why I never stood up for myself. I went the

> other way.

>

> I so envy you and the other group members with siblings to confide

> and collude with - thats lovely and its wonderful.

>

> So I suppose Im really just trying to concentrate on myself and using

> the 'visiting my mother' as an excuse - which is good I suppose. It

> takes the focus off her manic efforts at attention. Today I awoke to

> my father ringing me, my sisters texts - another nada emergency - she

> leaves the nursing home tomorrow so another need to act out.

>

> They'll bring her to hospital tomorrow. The good thing is I ignored

> the calls (OMG Im so proud of myself), replied to my npdsisters text

> saying 'oh so you will be visiting her now then' - very funny - just

> placing the drama back on her (they wanted me to deal with her). And

> then when the drama was over - I dropped in for a 5 minute hello

> tonight lol. Im sooooo proud of myself.

>

> The funniest thing to happen so far is my npd sister is going to wash

> my nadas hair tomorrow lol. Its the funniest thing Ive ever heard -

> a narcissist wash my mothers hair. She wouldnt even wash her own

> childs hair - she cant do anything for anyone - so I guess my little

> stands are meaning strange things are happenning lol lol I will not

> be visiting when that is happening lol

>

>

> At the start, when her illness was diagnosed, I was so concerned for

> her and was showing her love - I cut that out pretty quick. We'll

> see how things go. Its not safe to love her. And I also wanted to be

> the 'hero' and give give give as I was programmed to do - the only

> way I got any positive attention ever from parents. But funnily

> enough Im finding it easy to be selfish lol. I now 'get' the

> pleasures of not giving!

>

> Yes - brutal to myself lol. Yes maybe I'll be saving alot of visits

> to professionals in the future and having to 'imagine' how I feel

> around my mother. I'll have it recorded lol. Maybe lol, maybe not.

>

> But isnt it the same as what lots of people are doing here -

> recognising their patterns on trips to nada n stuff. We'll see - I

> have to remember not to 'connect' with her as if shes a real mother

> in any way - thats the trick - not to fall for that.

>

> Yeh - when you say about being stuck in the toy spider thing - yeh,

> Im only starting, and being around her provokes such strong sh*t that

> I dont know where its coming from - its all new to me - I never

> realised I felt these things. I always had a front up, even to

> myself.

>

> > that you were frustrated that you had been manipulated again into

> > being entirely responsible for an assignment involving your nada's

> > care, that you had wanted only minor involvement with, if any.

>

> Yes, thats true - thats what it's like, Im just going through each

> encounter and trying to learn from it. So, Im sure there will be

> more of that and other things as I learn.

>

> Yeh, the bodywork with a good professional is great. One thing that

> I find that helps in a time of stress is to lie on the floor on my

> back, with my knees bent, feet on floor, head under a couple of books

> and begin come into contact with the floor. See what I notice. Id

> love to meditate more also.

>

> Another poster here mentioned maybe leaving 'well enough alone' its a

> good observation. For me I would have always appeared very unfazed

> on the outside to people - but inside I was always shaking. And I

> found it hard to even admit that to myself. I dont shake inside or

> outside anymore - except around nada or other bpds (as far as I

> know). Im a good bpd barometer!

>

> Thanks again for the observations. Great to read the posts. I

> never realised I had the right to stand up to nada. Imagine that.

>

> Have a good night

> Grace

>

[Guest guest]

" ...by never standing up to them I've been ashamed... " WOW!!!! Great

insight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> > >

> > > Hi Annie

> > > Just got back from my 'session' lol.

> > >

> > > Ah desensitization - ok - well it wasnt an intentional plan - its

> > > just I was planning on going LC with my family and moving away

> and

> > > then nada got sick and I derailed, the old love bullet hit me.

> So,

> > > Im trying to make this a positive for me - some good from it and

> its

> > > really helping me as is the group.

> > >

> > > I suppose, realising that even when I get away from them my whole

> > > life - the effects of them is in me. And I attract more BPD and

> NPD

> > > people into my life - for me maybe its different from others.

> > >

> > > You made lots of interesting points. First though, something

> occured

> > > to me and Im wondering if others have had this too. I realise

> that

> > > by never standing up to them - that Ive been ashamed of myself my

> > > whole life, on top of the shaming they did to me. Ive always

> felt

> > > like a coward. This is the first time Im standing up for myself

> (in

> > > tiny ways - but noticeable, nothing spoken aloud). Another thing

> is

> > > Ive never had any pride in myself or my achievements. LIke it

> didnt

> > > matter what I achieved, it meant nothing to me. Im getting a

> little

> > > pride back. I get pride now from the smallest thing - like

> holding my

> > > own in a confrontation and handling it well.

> > >

> > > So many memories are triggered reading other's stories and by

> > > visiting nada - I wake up in the morning with 'out of the blue'

> stuff

> > > and like I was driving along and was thinking of the time I hit

> nada

> > > back - I never thought of that since it happened.

> > >

> > > I remember back to that time I hit nada. I must have been about

> 13

> > > or 14. I was left alone at home as my siblings had left before

> > > that. I remember she had me pinned in the corner between the

> oven

> > > and the door and was hitting me - in the face and head. I kneed

> her

> > > in the groin. One big reflex with added welly. I remember

> reading

> > > in the book 'Understanding the borderline mother' how the kid

> prefers

> > > to take their agression out on themesleves rather than the

> mother -

> > > an instinctive thing.

> > >

> > > She never mentioned it and she never hit me or the others again.

> > > Even when my brother was grown at that stage, she'd belt him

> across

> > > the head passing him as he was sitting at the table or

> something. He

> > > was 6ft 4 lol. I remember the red rage boil up to his face - he

> > > never hit back. If nada walked into a room - he left - he was

> all-

> > > good. I remember being so afraid of having hit my mother I

> thought I

> > > was the most horrible person and I never hit anyone since, like I

> was

> > > afraid of myself. Maybe why I never stood up for myself. I went

> the

> > > other way.

> > >

> > > I so envy you and the other group members with siblings to

> confide

> > > and collude with - thats lovely and its wonderful.

> > >

> > > So I suppose Im really just trying to concentrate on myself and

> using

> > > the 'visiting my mother' as an excuse - which is good I suppose.

> It

> > > takes the focus off her manic efforts at attention. Today I

> awoke to

> > > my father ringing me, my sisters texts - another nada emergency -

> she

> > > leaves the nursing home tomorrow so another need to act out.

> > >

> > > They'll bring her to hospital tomorrow. The good thing is I

> ignored

> > > the calls (OMG Im so proud of myself), replied to my npdsisters

> text

> > > saying 'oh so you will be visiting her now then' - very funny -

> just

> > > placing the drama back on her (they wanted me to deal with her).

> And

> > > then when the drama was over - I dropped in for a 5 minute hello

> > > tonight lol. Im sooooo proud of myself.

> > >

> > > The funniest thing to happen so far is my npd sister is going to

> wash

> > > my nadas hair tomorrow lol. Its the funniest thing Ive ever

> heard -

> > > a narcissist wash my mothers hair. She wouldnt even wash her own

> > > childs hair - she cant do anything for anyone - so I guess my

> little

> > > stands are meaning strange things are happenning lol lol I will

> not

> > > be visiting when that is happening lol

> > >

> > >

> > > At the start, when her illness was diagnosed, I was so concerned

> for

> > > her and was showing her love - I cut that out pretty quick.

> We'll

> > > see how things go. Its not safe to love her. And I also wanted

> to be

> > > the 'hero' and give give give as I was programmed to do - the

> only

> > > way I got any positive attention ever from parents. But funnily

> > > enough Im finding it easy to be selfish lol. I now 'get' the

> > > pleasures of not giving!

> > >

> > > Yes - brutal to myself lol. Yes maybe I'll be saving alot of

> visits

> > > to professionals in the future and having to 'imagine' how I feel

> > > around my mother. I'll have it recorded lol. Maybe lol, maybe

> not.

> > >

> > > But isnt it the same as what lots of people are doing here -

> > > recognising their patterns on trips to nada n stuff. We'll see -

> I

> > > have to remember not to 'connect' with her as if shes a real

> mother

> > > in any way - thats the trick - not to fall for that.

> > >

> > > Yeh - when you say about being stuck in the toy spider thing -

> yeh,

> > > Im only starting, and being around her provokes such strong sh*t

> that

> > > I dont know where its coming from - its all new to me - I never

> > > realised I felt these things. I always had a front up, even to

> > > myself.

> > >

> > > > that you were frustrated that you had been manipulated again

> into

> > > > being entirely responsible for an assignment involving your

> nada's

> > > > care, that you had wanted only minor involvement with, if any.

> > >

> > > Yes, thats true - thats what it's like, Im just going through

> each

> > > encounter and trying to learn from it. So, Im sure there will be

> > > more of that and other things as I learn.

> > >

> > > Yeh, the bodywork with a good professional is great. One thing

> that

> > > I find that helps in a time of stress is to lie on the floor on

> my

> > > back, with my knees bent, feet on floor, head under a couple of

> books

> > > and begin come into contact with the floor. See what I notice.

> Id

> > > love to meditate more also.

> > >

> > > Another poster here mentioned maybe leaving 'well enough alone'

> its a

> > > good observation. For me I would have always appeared very

> unfazed

> > > on the outside to people - but inside I was always shaking. And

> I

> > > found it hard to even admit that to myself. I dont shake inside

> or

> > > outside anymore - except around nada or other bpds (as far as I

> > > know). Im a good bpd barometer!

> > >

> > > Thanks again for the observations. Great to read the posts. I

> > > never realised I had the right to stand up to nada. Imagine

> that.

> > >

> > > Have a good night

> > > Grace

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

No problem!

> > >

> > > Hi Annie

> > > Just got back from my 'session' lol.

> > >

> > > Ah desensitization - ok - well it wasnt an intentional plan - its

> > > just I was planning on going LC with my family and moving away

> and

> > > then nada got sick and I derailed, the old love bullet hit me.

> So,

> > > Im trying to make this a positive for me - some good from it and

> its

> > > really helping me as is the group.

> > >

> > > I suppose, realising that even when I get away from them my whole

> > > life - the effects of them is in me. And I attract more BPD and

> NPD

> > > people into my life - for me maybe its different from others.

> > >

> > > You made lots of interesting points. First though, something

> occured

> > > to me and Im wondering if others have had this too. I realise

> that

> > > by never standing up to them - that Ive been ashamed of myself my

> > > whole life, on top of the shaming they did to me. Ive always

> felt

> > > like a coward. This is the first time Im standing up for myself

> (in

> > > tiny ways - but noticeable, nothing spoken aloud). Another thing

> is

> > > Ive never had any pride in myself or my achievements. LIke it

> didnt

> > > matter what I achieved, it meant nothing to me. Im getting a

> little

> > > pride back. I get pride now from the smallest thing - like

> holding my

> > > own in a confrontation and handling it well.

> > >

> > > So many memories are triggered reading other's stories and by

> > > visiting nada - I wake up in the morning with 'out of the blue'

> stuff

> > > and like I was driving along and was thinking of the time I hit

> nada

> > > back - I never thought of that since it happened.

> > >

> > > I remember back to that time I hit nada. I must have been about

> 13

> > > or 14. I was left alone at home as my siblings had left before

> > > that. I remember she had me pinned in the corner between the

> oven

> > > and the door and was hitting me - in the face and head. I kneed

> her

> > > in the groin. One big reflex with added welly. I remember

> reading

> > > in the book 'Understanding the borderline mother' how the kid

> prefers

> > > to take their agression out on themesleves rather than the

> mother -

> > > an instinctive thing.

> > >

> > > She never mentioned it and she never hit me or the others again.

> > > Even when my brother was grown at that stage, she'd belt him

> across

> > > the head passing him as he was sitting at the table or

> something. He

> > > was 6ft 4 lol. I remember the red rage boil up to his face - he

> > > never hit back. If nada walked into a room - he left - he was

> all-

> > > good. I remember being so afraid of having hit my mother I

> thought I

> > > was the most horrible person and I never hit anyone since, like I

> was

> > > afraid of myself. Maybe why I never stood up for myself. I went

> the

> > > other way.

> > >

> > > I so envy you and the other group members with siblings to

> confide

> > > and collude with - thats lovely and its wonderful.

> > >

> > > So I suppose Im really just trying to concentrate on myself and

> using

> > > the 'visiting my mother' as an excuse - which is good I suppose.

> It

> > > takes the focus off her manic efforts at attention. Today I

> awoke to

> > > my father ringing me, my sisters texts - another nada emergency -

> she

> > > leaves the nursing home tomorrow so another need to act out.

> > >

> > > They'll bring her to hospital tomorrow. The good thing is I

> ignored

> > > the calls (OMG Im so proud of myself), replied to my npdsisters

> text

> > > saying 'oh so you will be visiting her now then' - very funny -

> just

> > > placing the drama back on her (they wanted me to deal with her).

> And

> > > then when the drama was over - I dropped in for a 5 minute hello

> > > tonight lol. Im sooooo proud of myself.

> > >

> > > The funniest thing to happen so far is my npd sister is going to

> wash

> > > my nadas hair tomorrow lol. Its the funniest thing Ive ever

> heard -

> > > a narcissist wash my mothers hair. She wouldnt even wash her own

> > > childs hair - she cant do anything for anyone - so I guess my

> little

> > > stands are meaning strange things are happenning lol lol I will

> not

> > > be visiting when that is happening lol

> > >

> > >

> > > At the start, when her illness was diagnosed, I was so concerned

> for

> > > her and was showing her love - I cut that out pretty quick.

> We'll

> > > see how things go. Its not safe to love her. And I also wanted

> to be

> > > the 'hero' and give give give as I was programmed to do - the

> only

> > > way I got any positive attention ever from parents. But funnily

> > > enough Im finding it easy to be selfish lol. I now 'get' the

> > > pleasures of not giving!

> > >

> > > Yes - brutal to myself lol. Yes maybe I'll be saving alot of

> visits

> > > to professionals in the future and having to 'imagine' how I feel

> > > around my mother. I'll have it recorded lol. Maybe lol, maybe

> not.

> > >

> > > But isnt it the same as what lots of people are doing here -

> > > recognising their patterns on trips to nada n stuff. We'll see -

> I

> > > have to remember not to 'connect' with her as if shes a real

> mother

> > > in any way - thats the trick - not to fall for that.

> > >

> > > Yeh - when you say about being stuck in the toy spider thing -

> yeh,

> > > Im only starting, and being around her provokes such strong sh*t

> that

> > > I dont know where its coming from - its all new to me - I never

> > > realised I felt these things. I always had a front up, even to

> > > myself.

> > >

> > > > that you were frustrated that you had been manipulated again

> into

> > > > being entirely responsible for an assignment involving your

> nada's

> > > > care, that you had wanted only minor involvement with, if any.

> > >

> > > Yes, thats true - thats what it's like, Im just going through

> each

> > > encounter and trying to learn from it. So, Im sure there will be

> > > more of that and other things as I learn.

> > >

> > > Yeh, the bodywork with a good professional is great. One thing

> that

> > > I find that helps in a time of stress is to lie on the floor on

> my

> > > back, with my knees bent, feet on floor, head under a couple of

> books

> > > and begin come into contact with the floor. See what I notice.

> Id

> > > love to meditate more also.

> > >

> > > Another poster here mentioned maybe leaving 'well enough alone'

> its a

> > > good observation. For me I would have always appeared very

> unfazed

> > > on the outside to people - but inside I was always shaking. And

> I

> > > found it hard to even admit that to myself. I dont shake inside

> or

> > > outside anymore - except around nada or other bpds (as far as I

> > > know). Im a good bpd barometer!

> > >

> > > Thanks again for the observations. Great to read the posts. I

> > > never realised I had the right to stand up to nada. Imagine

> that.

> > >

> > > Have a good night

> > > Grace

> > >

> >

>