Re: Generational BPD ~ Crisis

[Guest guest]

I agree that your brother sounds depressed and suicidal. He is an

adult, and you can talk to him directly. Tell him you are concerned

about him and encourage him to seek help. Please do not give up just

because your parents are in the way. Ultimately, though, he is in

control of his life, and unless he flat out says to you he is

thinking of hurting himself, there's not much more you can do.

If he has BPD, he may also be trying to get attention. We still have

to take suicide seriously, but be on guard that he may be fishing for

love.

>

> Ok....Wanting some input from this terrific group of support and

compassion!

>

> Here is the situation - I have a younger 30-something yo brother,

whom I suspect is BPD

> - living at home, jobless for 2 years and now sharing with others

that he feels he is " losing

> his mind " and feels life is not worth living anymore.

>

> He lives at home with our mother, who is BPD and our very co-

dependent father.

>

> A few of us siblings are trying to intervene at this point, fearing

that my brother is suicidal

> and could take action on these thoughts.

>

> My mother is basically wanting to " dump " the problem, whenever we

try to discuss our

> brother with her - her first statements are always focused on him

not having insurance " ,

> and then after this statement, she typically breaks down, crying

and saying that she does

> not want to talk about it any more.

>

> My mother is very tight with her money (very well off though) and I

do think that part of

> her wanting to dump the problem is driven by her own BPD, and

financial tightness.

>

> My thoughts are that we should just leave her and my Dad out of

this intervention, and

> focus solely on my brother and his issues. (abit difficult to do I

am thinking, as my brother

> lives @ home with my mom/dad!)

>

> The problem is that since he lives at home, the entire situation

seems somewhat hopeless

> to me......at least two BPD's enmeshed and living together (my mom

and brother), and a

> father who basically does not want to deal with it either. Both

parents are also alcoholics.

>

> Am looking for thoughts, suggestions and sharing of similar

experiences...I want to make

> sure I stay balanced through this, and not become enmeshed or

enabling...just trying to

> determine what is best for my brother!

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Mid!

There's a wonderful book about exactly this kind of situation called " Leaving

Home " by Celani. It explains a lot about why some people have a harder

time moving away from abusive parents and starting their own lives.

I'm wondering what makes you think your brother has BPD, though? Is it because

he's suicidal? Or is it just because he's living at home?

All during and after my divorce, my evil psycho nada pretended to be a " loving

parent " long enough to hoover me into selling my house and moving back in with

her along with my young son. She tortured me and kept me prisoner there for

several years -- I SWEAR! I could not get out of that house!! I was a

PSYCHOLOGICAL HOSTAGE, lol!

I can laugh about it now, but at the time I have to say that the daily exposure

to my nada and her sadistic behavior actually destroyed me. I had no

self-esteem. If it weren't for my son, I know suicide would've been an option.

As it was, I developed a serious drinking problem.

(And I KNOW I was suffering from PTSD while living with her, I wouldn't be

surprised if your brother is suffering from the same, as he's constantly being

re-traumatized by abusive parents!)

Anyhow, here's my story, maybe it'll help you understand things from his point

of view, (or help someone else out there):

Now, before my divorce, in my previous life as an adult, I had a lot of success.

I had a successful career as a screenwriter in Hollywood. I owned a nice house

in an exclusive town. I had been married for 18 years and had a young son, two

dogs and a nice car. I had friends, money, got to hang out with

celebrities,.... in short, I HAD A WHOLE FUNCTIONING ADULT LIFE.

Within ONE YEAR of living with a nada, I was reduced to NOTHING. She had

convinced me -- and my entire family!! -- that I was a nothing, a loser, a

spoiled ungrateful selfish immature person who relied on her to support me and

my son and would never amount to anything.

She actually did this! And everyone believed her -- despite my previous

success! And I was so broken and weak and upset about my divorce that I

BELIEVED HER, too! (This was all before I knew about BPD, by the way. I was

still in denial and didn't know she was actually CRAZY.)

Like I said, I stayed in that hell (was trapped there!!) for several years.

Very quickly, all my money was gone -- she had me fritter away a lot of it on

fixing up her house and covering the expenses there (CHEAPNESS is a common BP

trait, by the way), and then " forgot " and pretended she had been supporting me

my entire life! It was so crazy. And my whole family believed her and sided

with her..... ugghhhhh.

With no self-esteem and her constant fighting and creating of dramas, and then

trying to keep her away from my son, I lost the ability to write and support

myself. I HAD nothing and WAS nothing. I was financially, spiritually,

creatively and emotionally broke and bankrupt -- and I had this crazy vicious

psycho telling me and the whole world that it was ALL MY FAULT because I was

such a loser!

Living with a nada destroyed me. She reduced me to NOTHING, a non-functioning,

chain-smoking, all-day-tv-watching, flat-broke, self-pitying, alcoholic NOTHING.

Living with her took away EVERYTHING I had -- and believe me, I had A LOT going

for me when I moved in there! I can't imagine how devastating it must be to

live with a BP parent and NOT have the kind of life experience I had had

previously.

Anyhow: the ONLY thing that saved me was that FINALLY, after several years of

this non-stop abuse and hitting rock bottom and having nowhere else to turn, I

asked my dad and step-mother to co-sign a bank loan in my name.

That was it: it came down to money and a plan.

The loan gave me just enough money to grab my son and get out of my nada's

house. With that money I've gotten myself set up with an apartment and a day

job.

It's been 9 months -- 9 glorious months of NC from my evil witch of a nada! --

and I'm FINALLY starting to recover my sense of self. By this time next year,

I'll be quitting my day job and supporting myself again as a screenwriter and

getting my life back on track!

Now, IF your brother isn't a BP, I really urge you to offer him some solid,

financial help ALONG WITH AN ESCAPE PLAN. That's the only thing that saved me

in the end. Mostly, what he needs is nonjudgmental support -- unless he's a BP.

Another thing you could do to help him -- again, IF he's not a BP -- is refer

him to this message board for support from other KOs!

If you truly do think he's a BP, though -- and not just a lost KO with fleas and

suffering from PTSD-type symptoms (numbing, rage, avoidance).... that's another

matter entirely.

You should know, however, that it's VERY common for non-BP adult children to

live with their BP parents and become enmeshed with them and start picking up

BP-like behaviors (as survival tactics). We often see adult KOs living at home

on this board.

So... hope all this helps! I always enjoy the chance to tell my story, anyhow,

if nothing else.

Best of luck, keep posting!

S

Re: Generational BPD ~ Crisis

To: WTOAdultChildren1

> I agree that your brother sounds depressed and suicidal. He is

> an

> adult, and you can talk to him directly. Tell him you are

> concerned

> about him and encourage him to seek help. Please do not give up

> just

> because your parents are in the way. Ultimately, though, he is

> in

> control of his life, and unless he flat out says to you he is

> thinking of hurting himself, there's not much more you can do.

>

> If he has BPD, he may also be trying to get attention. We still

> have

> to take suicide seriously, but be on guard that he may be

> fishing for

> love.

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Ok....Wanting some input from this terrific group of support

> and

> compassion!

> >

> > Here is the situation - I have a younger 30-something yo

> brother,

> whom I suspect is BPD

> > - living at home, jobless for 2 years and now sharing with

> others

> that he feels he is " losing

> > his mind " and feels life is not worth living anymore.

> >

> > He lives at home with our mother, who is BPD and our very co-

> dependent father.

> >

> > A few of us siblings are trying to intervene at this point,

> fearing

> that my brother is suicidal

> > and could take action on these thoughts.

> >

> > My mother is basically wanting to " dump " the problem, whenever

> we

> try to discuss our

> > brother with her - her first statements are always focused on

> him

> not having insurance " ,

> > and then after this statement, she typically breaks down,

> crying

> and saying that she does

> > not want to talk about it any more.

> >

> > My mother is very tight with her money (very well off though)

> and I

> do think that part of

> > her wanting to dump the problem is driven by her own BPD, and

> financial tightness.

> >

> > My thoughts are that we should just leave her and my Dad out

> of

> this intervention, and

> > focus solely on my brother and his issues. (abit difficult to

> do I

> am thinking, as my brother

> > lives @ home with my mom/dad!)

> >

> > The problem is that since he lives at home, the entire

> situation

> seems somewhat hopeless

> > to me......at least two BPD's enmeshed and living together (my

> mom

> and brother), and a

> > father who basically does not want to deal with it either.

> Both

> parents are also alcoholics.

> >

> > Am looking for thoughts, suggestions and sharing of similar

> experiences...I want to make

> > sure I stay balanced through this, and not become enmeshed or

> enabling...just trying to

> > determine what is best for my brother!

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

S,

What you have written is so true and so sad, when you are at a very

low point- and really could use a parent-they do swoop in and go for

the kill.

I went to my parents several years ago to get out of an abusive

marriage- it became a nightmare. My mother wanted to control my life.

She went crazy on me, and when I fought her on the control she upped

the ante so to speak.

At that point I knew I had to get out from under her control. So I

paid her back the money I had borrowed, and started firm boundaries

with her. She before this would want to talk to me several times a

day, we went from that intensity to not talking for days at a time.

My father would call me and ask me to call nada.

It was ugly- and I was trying to break away from my abusive marriage.

I did come back to my husband- and at that point I thought he and

I could work it out. It was also a great boundary for me with nada-

because she couldn't stand him.

I was too weak not to stand up to the both of them- so I picked

my largest enemy- which was nada. Several years later- and my husband

is still abusive- and nada wants to " HELP " out- I tell her NO- flat

out, whatever I decide to do with my marriage- I will fall back on

me, and she has nothing to do with my choice, or the residual of

those choices.

This is when I want a normal parent- someone who says- we support

you and we have no hidden agenda. I am stronger now and I thank God

everyday for that.

So I just wanted to S- I am hearing you.

Malinda

In WTOAdultChildren1 , slarsen988@... wrote:

>

>

> Hi, Mid!

>

> There's a wonderful book about exactly this kind of situation

called " Leaving Home " by Celani. It explains a lot about why

some people have a harder time moving away from abusive parents and

starting their own lives.

>

> I'm wondering what makes you think your brother has BPD, though?

Is it because he's suicidal? Or is it just because he's living at

home?

>

> All during and after my divorce, my evil psycho nada pretended to

be a " loving parent " long enough to hoover me into selling my house

and moving back in with her along with my young son. She tortured me

and kept me prisoner there for several years -- I SWEAR! I could not

get out of that house!! I was a PSYCHOLOGICAL HOSTAGE, lol!

>

> I can laugh about it now, but at the time I have to say that the

daily exposure to my nada and her sadistic behavior actually

destroyed me. I had no self-esteem. If it weren't for my son, I

know suicide would've been an option. As it was, I developed a

serious drinking problem.

>

> (And I KNOW I was suffering from PTSD while living with her, I

wouldn't be surprised if your brother is suffering from the same, as

he's constantly being re-traumatized by abusive parents!)

>

> Anyhow, here's my story, maybe it'll help you understand things

from his point of view, (or help someone else out there):

>

> Now, before my divorce, in my previous life as an adult, I had a

lot of success. I had a successful career as a screenwriter in

Hollywood. I owned a nice house in an exclusive town. I had been

married for 18 years and had a young son, two dogs and a nice car. I

had friends, money, got to hang out with celebrities,.... in short, I

HAD A WHOLE FUNCTIONING ADULT LIFE.

>

> Within ONE YEAR of living with a nada, I was reduced to NOTHING.

She had convinced me -- and my entire family!! -- that I was a

nothing, a loser, a spoiled ungrateful selfish immature person who

relied on her to support me and my son and would never amount to

anything.

>

> She actually did this! And everyone believed her -- despite my

previous success! And I was so broken and weak and upset about my

divorce that I BELIEVED HER, too! (This was all before I knew about

BPD, by the way. I was still in denial and didn't know she was

actually CRAZY.)

>

> Like I said, I stayed in that hell (was trapped there!!) for

several years. Very quickly, all my money was gone -- she had me

fritter away a lot of it on fixing up her house and covering the

expenses there (CHEAPNESS is a common BP trait, by the way), and

then " forgot " and pretended she had been supporting me my entire

life! It was so crazy. And my whole family believed her and sided

with her..... ugghhhhh.

>

> With no self-esteem and her constant fighting and creating of

dramas, and then trying to keep her away from my son, I lost the

ability to write and support myself. I HAD nothing and WAS nothing.

I was financially, spiritually, creatively and emotionally broke and

bankrupt -- and I had this crazy vicious psycho telling me and the

whole world that it was ALL MY FAULT because I was such a loser!

>

> Living with a nada destroyed me. She reduced me to NOTHING, a non-

functioning, chain-smoking, all-day-tv-watching, flat-broke, self-

pitying, alcoholic NOTHING. Living with her took away EVERYTHING I

had -- and believe me, I had A LOT going for me when I moved in

there! I can't imagine how devastating it must be to live with a BP

parent and NOT have the kind of life experience I had had previously.

>

> Anyhow: the ONLY thing that saved me was that FINALLY, after

several years of this non-stop abuse and hitting rock bottom and

having nowhere else to turn, I asked my dad and step-mother to co-

sign a bank loan in my name.

>

> That was it: it came down to money and a plan.

>

> The loan gave me just enough money to grab my son and get out of my

nada's house. With that money I've gotten myself set up with an

apartment and a day job.

>

> It's been 9 months -- 9 glorious months of NC from my evil witch of

a nada! -- and I'm FINALLY starting to recover my sense of self. By

this time next year, I'll be quitting my day job and supporting

myself again as a screenwriter and getting my life back on track!

>

> Now, IF your brother isn't a BP, I really urge you to offer him

some solid, financial help ALONG WITH AN ESCAPE PLAN. That's the

only thing that saved me in the end. Mostly, what he needs is

nonjudgmental support -- unless he's a BP.

>

> Another thing you could do to help him -- again, IF he's not a BP --

is refer him to this message board for support from other KOs!

>

> If you truly do think he's a BP, though -- and not just a lost KO

with fleas and suffering from PTSD-type symptoms (numbing, rage,

avoidance).... that's another matter entirely.

>

> You should know, however, that it's VERY common for non-BP adult

children to live with their BP parents and become enmeshed with them

and start picking up BP-like behaviors (as survival tactics). We

often see adult KOs living at home on this board.

>

> So... hope all this helps! I always enjoy the chance to tell my

story, anyhow, if nothing else.

>

> Best of luck, keep posting!

>

> S

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Re: Generational BPD ~ Crisis

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

>

> > I agree that your brother sounds depressed and suicidal. He is

> > an

> > adult, and you can talk to him directly. Tell him you are

> > concerned

> > about him and encourage him to seek help. Please do not give up

> > just

> > because your parents are in the way. Ultimately, though, he is

> > in

> > control of his life, and unless he flat out says to you he is

> > thinking of hurting himself, there's not much more you can do.

> >

> > If he has BPD, he may also be trying to get attention. We still

> > have

> > to take suicide seriously, but be on guard that he may be

> > fishing for

> > love.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Ok....Wanting some input from this terrific group of support

> > and

> > compassion!

> > >

> > > Here is the situation - I have a younger 30-something yo

> > brother,

> > whom I suspect is BPD

> > > - living at home, jobless for 2 years and now sharing with

> > others

> > that he feels he is " losing

> > > his mind " and feels life is not worth living anymore.

> > >

> > > He lives at home with our mother, who is BPD and our very co-

> > dependent father.

> > >

> > > A few of us siblings are trying to intervene at this point,

> > fearing

> > that my brother is suicidal

> > > and could take action on these thoughts.

> > >

> > > My mother is basically wanting to " dump " the problem, whenever

> > we

> > try to discuss our

> > > brother with her - her first statements are always focused on

> > him

> > not having insurance " ,

> > > and then after this statement, she typically breaks down,

> > crying

> > and saying that she does

> > > not want to talk about it any more.

> > >

> > > My mother is very tight with her money (very well off though)

> > and I

> > do think that part of

> > > her wanting to dump the problem is driven by her own BPD, and

> > financial tightness.

> > >

> > > My thoughts are that we should just leave her and my Dad out

> > of

> > this intervention, and

> > > focus solely on my brother and his issues. (abit difficult to

> > do I

> > am thinking, as my brother

> > > lives @ home with my mom/dad!)

> > >

> > > The problem is that since he lives at home, the entire

> > situation

> > seems somewhat hopeless

> > > to me......at least two BPD's enmeshed and living together (my

> > mom

> > and brother), and a

> > > father who basically does not want to deal with it either.

> > Both

> > parents are also alcoholics.

> > >

> > > Am looking for thoughts, suggestions and sharing of similar

> > experiences...I want to make

> > > sure I stay balanced through this, and not become enmeshed or

> > enabling...just trying to

> > > determine what is best for my brother!

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mid,

Your brother needs to get out of there. I can't imagine living

with my nada. I am sure he is depressed and suicidal. The residual

effects must be awful for him. Maybe buy him the book- S, recommended

for him.

I just feel he is being emotionally imprisoned, and it must hurt

for you to seem him go through this.

Take care,

Malinda

In WTOAdultChildren1 , " midof9 " wrote:

>

> Ok....Wanting some input from this terrific group of support and

compassion!

>

> Here is the situation - I have a younger 30-something yo brother,

whom I suspect is BPD

> - living at home, jobless for 2 years and now sharing with others

that he feels he is " losing

> his mind " and feels life is not worth living anymore.

>

> He lives at home with our mother, who is BPD and our very co-

dependent father.

>

> A few of us siblings are trying to intervene at this point, fearing

that my brother is suicidal

> and could take action on these thoughts.

>

> My mother is basically wanting to " dump " the problem, whenever we

try to discuss our

> brother with her - her first statements are always focused on him

not having insurance " ,

> and then after this statement, she typically breaks down, crying

and saying that she does

> not want to talk about it any more.

>

> My mother is very tight with her money (very well off though) and I

do think that part of

> her wanting to dump the problem is driven by her own BPD, and

financial tightness.

>

> My thoughts are that we should just leave her and my Dad out of

this intervention, and

> focus solely on my brother and his issues. (abit difficult to do I

am thinking, as my brother

> lives @ home with my mom/dad!)

>

> The problem is that since he lives at home, the entire situation

seems somewhat hopeless

> to me......at least two BPD's enmeshed and living together (my mom

and brother), and a

> father who basically does not want to deal with it either. Both

parents are also alcoholics.

>

> Am looking for thoughts, suggestions and sharing of similar

experiences...I want to make

> sure I stay balanced through this, and not become enmeshed or

enabling...just trying to

> determine what is best for my brother!

>

[Guest guest]

when my parents got divorced, my mom moved us in with HER mom, which

never made any sense to me since my mom actively avoided her mom most

of the time and would tell me how horrible their relationship had been

when she was younger and how she didn't like her mom, etc. i was of

the mind that her mom would be the LAST place she would look to take

refuge (i was 10). anyway, we moved in and stayed for maybe a year

and a half. i don't really remember because it was so bizarre. she

was so ready to get her feelings hurt, it was unbelievable. anything,

and i mean ANYTHING that my grandmother said would end up with me

getting screamed at.

plus, during that time, mom made relationships with these bizarre

women. there was this anorexic woman from her work. mom thought she

was really cool and became anxorexic, too. the woman's husband was

rich, and i have to think that had something to do with it because she

is a real snob. then she hung out with a lot of other divorced women

and they just bitched about their ex-husbands.

so that was a fun year and a half. living with two bpds. very strange.

bink

> > >

> > > Ok....Wanting some input from this terrific group of support

> > and

> > compassion!

> > >

> > > Here is the situation - I have a younger 30-something yo

> > brother,

> > whom I suspect is BPD

> > > - living at home, jobless for 2 years and now sharing with

> > others

> > that he feels he is " losing

> > > his mind " and feels life is not worth living anymore.

> > >

> > > He lives at home with our mother, who is BPD and our very co-

> > dependent father.

> > >

> > > A few of us siblings are trying to intervene at this point,

> > fearing

> > that my brother is suicidal

> > > and could take action on these thoughts.

> > >

> > > My mother is basically wanting to " dump " the problem, whenever

> > we

> > try to discuss our

> > > brother with her - her first statements are always focused on

> > him

> > not having insurance " ,

> > > and then after this statement, she typically breaks down,

> > crying

> > and saying that she does

> > > not want to talk about it any more.

> > >

> > > My mother is very tight with her money (very well off though)

> > and I

> > do think that part of

> > > her wanting to dump the problem is driven by her own BPD, and

> > financial tightness.

> > >

> > > My thoughts are that we should just leave her and my Dad out

> > of

> > this intervention, and

> > > focus solely on my brother and his issues. (abit difficult to

> > do I

> > am thinking, as my brother

> > > lives @ home with my mom/dad!)

> > >

> > > The problem is that since he lives at home, the entire

> > situation

> > seems somewhat hopeless

> > > to me......at least two BPD's enmeshed and living together (my

> > mom

> > and brother), and a

> > > father who basically does not want to deal with it either.

> > Both

> > parents are also alcoholics.

> > >

> > > Am looking for thoughts, suggestions and sharing of similar

> > experiences...I want to make

> > > sure I stay balanced through this, and not become enmeshed or

> > enabling...just trying to

> > > determine what is best for my brother!

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

oh my god, and i forgot the worst part of it all. my mom, her mom,

and her mom's sister would sit in the living room and try to SHAME me.

it was so freaking weird. i was a tomboy. now i guess i'm a

tom-guy...what do tomboys become when they grow up? definitely not a

tomman. anyway, they would give me a hard time for the way i dressed,

they would buy me clothes they knew i wouldn't wear, then i would get

in trouble for not wearing them.

one time i got a d on a 6-wks grade report in 7th grade. i figured,

well, i got a 90 the first six wks, i'll get an a the third, and i'll

get an a on the final. add em all up, divide by 4, and i'd have a mid

to upper b. no big deal, right?

mom did not see it like this. even though she didn't pay attention to

ANYTHING i was doing in school, treating me like it was the worst

thing i could possibly do to her if i asked to buy a book or supplies

for class, she felt like it was her job to sit me down in the living

room and tell these two other women how poorly i got on my report card

and how disappointing it was and how i was baaaaaad.

now this was unbelievable for several reasons, first being that half

of her family isn't even sure if she actually GRADUATED high school.

(to be fair, she moved out when she was 16 because her mom was crazy

and kept going). she did, in fact, graduate, but would tell me

stories about how she just made patterns on her sat. it was so

insane. is school important or is it not?

anyway, she was shaming me and i was like, " mom, this is the last time

you will ever see my report card. " i knew she would be too lazy to go

up to the school to get it.

it's like she never took into account anyone but my baby sister and

herself would be affected by her divorce.

that was so stupid.

bink

> > > >

> > > > Ok....Wanting some input from this terrific group of support

> > > and

> > > compassion!

> > > >

> > > > Here is the situation - I have a younger 30-something yo

> > > brother,

> > > whom I suspect is BPD

> > > > - living at home, jobless for 2 years and now sharing with

> > > others

> > > that he feels he is " losing

> > > > his mind " and feels life is not worth living anymore.

> > > >

> > > > He lives at home with our mother, who is BPD and our very co-

> > > dependent father.

> > > >

> > > > A few of us siblings are trying to intervene at this point,

> > > fearing

> > > that my brother is suicidal

> > > > and could take action on these thoughts.

> > > >

> > > > My mother is basically wanting to " dump " the problem, whenever

> > > we

> > > try to discuss our

> > > > brother with her - her first statements are always focused on

> > > him

> > > not having insurance " ,

> > > > and then after this statement, she typically breaks down,

> > > crying

> > > and saying that she does

> > > > not want to talk about it any more.

> > > >

> > > > My mother is very tight with her money (very well off though)

> > > and I

> > > do think that part of

> > > > her wanting to dump the problem is driven by her own BPD, and

> > > financial tightness.

> > > >

> > > > My thoughts are that we should just leave her and my Dad out

> > > of

> > > this intervention, and

> > > > focus solely on my brother and his issues. (abit difficult to

> > > do I

> > > am thinking, as my brother

> > > > lives @ home with my mom/dad!)

> > > >

> > > > The problem is that since he lives at home, the entire

> > > situation

> > > seems somewhat hopeless

> > > > to me......at least two BPD's enmeshed and living together (my

> > > mom

> > > and brother), and a

> > > > father who basically does not want to deal with it either.

> > > Both

> > > parents are also alcoholics.

> > > >

> > > > Am looking for thoughts, suggestions and sharing of similar

> > > experiences...I want to make

> > > > sure I stay balanced through this, and not become enmeshed or

> > > enabling...just trying to

> > > > determine what is best for my brother!

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >