Guest guest Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 Barry wrote the following in Digest Number 997: >. As long >as we are in a public group, your negative opposition or belief in >our cleanses (where stones come from, stones being real, 100 of >stones being real, etc)will be met with equal positive support(or >opposition in your case). Debating goes two ways. I never stop wondering at how the subject of liver-GB cleanses has become a theological one, with so much emphasis on belief. There is no room for belief in the face of facts. Either people have indeed been flushing out hundreds of gallstones, or they have been flushing out something else. Either Epsom salts dilates the ducts or it does not. These are facts that can be tested, investigated and proved or disproved. Three is no element of faith involved. It is as if you say that you belive that it is snowing on your street, and your friend believes that it is a sunny day. Only one of these can be accurate at any time, and there is no room for a set of beliefs. I see that there is a need for solid proofs and the dropping of the theological approach to cleansing. ----------------------- IRA L. JACOBSON ----------------------- mailto:laser@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 >>I never stop wondering at how the subject of liver-GB cleanses has become a theological one, with so much emphasis on belief.<< I agree. Although people do choose which " facts " they want to believe, but so what. I may choose to believe " facts " from my own experience, and what I have learned from a different source than someone else may have gleaned " facts " from, and that's OK. The information gets respectfully (for the most part) shared, and people decide for themselves. What is amazing is when people start being unkind to each other over differing views. Also, I find it irritating when something I said is turned into something completely different. For instance, if I state that I have a different opinion than someone about stones forming in the liver, or that I don't think EVERYTHING that comes out is stones, that comes back suddenly as my having said that stones are not coming out and flushes are not worthwhile. It's as if when someone asks a question, if someone offers an opinion differing from what might be the majority, a few people get upset, and instead of just posting their opinion, they have a need to say, " We shouldn't have to listen to yours. " I do have to say though, that this does not apply to the majority of the members. Debra _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 Hi, I think Barry's use of the word " belief " was correct in the sense that the opinions, of those who have posted their scepticism regarding the results of the liver cleanse, have been based on beliefs, rather than facts. You are correct in that people should not base their decision about the benefits and results of the liver cleanse, on beliefs, but rather, on facts. However, it takes a step of faith, so to speak, to step out of the regular medical mold, and accept another conclusion, which IMO is supported by facts....hence my post about presuppositions....which are really beliefs(based on fact or not), no? Adrienne " Ira L. son " <laser@...> wrote: Barry wrote the following in Digest Number 997: >. As long >as we are in a public group, your negative opposition or belief in >our cleanses (where stones come from, stones being real, 100 of >stones being real, etc)will be met with equal positive support(or >opposition in your case). Debating goes two ways. I never stop wondering at how the subject of liver-GB cleanses has become a theological one, with so much emphasis on belief. There is no room for belief in the face of facts. Either people have indeed been flushing out hundreds of gallstones, or they have been flushing out something else. Either Epsom salts dilates the ducts or it does not. These are facts that can be tested, investigated and proved or disproved. Three is no element of faith involved. It is as if you say that you belive that it is snowing on your street, and your friend believes that it is a sunny day. Only one of these can be accurate at any time, and there is no room for a set of beliefs. I see that there is a need for solid proofs and the dropping of the theological approach to cleansing. ----------------------- IRA L. JACOBSON ----------------------- mailto:laser@... --------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 laser@... writes: > I never stop wondering at how the subject of liver-GB cleanses has > become a theological one, with so much emphasis on belief. > There is no room for belief in the face of facts. Actually, in my opinion, there is not only room, but also a NEED for belief. It isn't a theological thing, though. Not that type of belief. yes, the facts are there. yes - either stones are coming out or not. But what a person believes about what they are doing can have a dramatic effect on the results of the cleanse - even the unseen results. If you've ever had a chance to read anything about the mind/body connection - such as the great books by Dr. Bernie Siegel, you'd read countless examples of how the mind impacts the body's healing. So yes, I'd say it's critically important that a person believe that what they are doing is successful and good for their health. And so yes, I can understand why there are those who feel strongly about posting about what they believe about what they are doing. in health, rachel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2002 Report Share Posted February 26, 2002 >>what a person believes about what they are doing can have a dramatic >>effect on the results of the cleanse - even the unseen results. << I CERTAINLY do believe this, and I understand totally what you are saying about the mind/body connection. Debra _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 sent the following text in Digest Number 1000: >So yes, I'd say it's critically important that a person believe that >what >they are doing is successful and good for their health. And so yes, >I can >understand why there are those who feel strongly about posting about >what >they believe about what they are doing. While I would find it hard to disagree with your thoughts, , i fear you have missed my point. Of course it's good to believe that what you are doing will be of benefit. I'm talking about another type of " belief " that I read here every day. That is a " belief " that Epsom salts dilate ducts. A " belief " that everyone's liver is full of stones, when gastroenterologists tell us that intrahepatic stones are fatal unless treated in very aggressive manner! A " belief " that a liver cleanse causes the gall bladder to expel stones, while Barry bemoans the fact that he has passed 100s of what he regards as gallstones, yet the single one that makes him so uncomfortable still remains in place. These are the kind of beliefs that are passed on from one list member to another, each time reinforcing these beliefs, so that everyone has these beliefs, and they don't look for or find corroboration from people who have studied the matter scientifically. That would be fine in a religious discipline, but here we are dealing with the health of each and every one of us, and many treat it as a form of belief in the unknown. " I've also heard that . . . . " is a recurrent theme. Can I tell this to my doctor and expect to convince him/her? I hope I have made my observation more clear, so that can see that she didn't really answer my point. And now, *why* is this pseudo-religious faith of concern to me? Because I have to deal with medical professionals to whom I go for help, and I would love to be able to convince them that I have the answer. If a physician tells me, for example, that he has investigated, dissected, treated, imaged hundreds of livers and gall bladders and has seen none of the phenomena that all our list members belive in, my only response can be that Adrienne told me so, that she read it in a book written by someone who took a 100-hour correspondence course. And that Agnes believes it, and that Barry believes it but cannot understand why, despite all his efforts, he still has the painful gallstone that led him to his beliefs. (No offense to any of these people, of course, and my apologies to those whom I have not mentioned.) You understand that I do not have a leg to stand on in a discussion with a physician that has devoted tens of years to studying and treating people with the problems that you and I have. And I would like to be rid of my stones! And I'd like to keep my gall bladder. Is my position clear to anyone, or have I not explained myself clearly again? Does anyone see things the way I do? ----------------------- IRA L. JACOBSON ----------------------- mailto:laser@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 Hi, I think I understand you perfectly...however, I'll repeat myself by saying, the facts are there...you just refuse to " believe " them. Just because Barry has not eliminated a calcified stone, does not nullify the benefits he has received from doing the cleanse...which he has posted numerous times about. The majority of MD's don't " believe " in the benefits of chiropractic care, for whatever reason, but that does not nullify the facts that are out there, for them to study and research, which prove that chiropractic is a viable health alternative. The difference being that chiropractic has had the money behind it to support the scientific research necessary to prove its effectiveness. Agnes has already posted why the medical profession would not support the research needed to " prove " the effectiveness of the liver cleanse. All the proof you need, is to do the liver cleanse yourself...take the " stones " to be analyzed. The proof is in the doing of the cleanse. Adrienne " Ira L. son " <laser@...> wrote: sent the following text in Digest Number 1000: >So yes, I'd say it's critically important that a person believe that >what >they are doing is successful and good for their health. And so yes, >I can >understand why there are those who feel strongly about posting about >what >they believe about what they are doing. While I would find it hard to disagree with your thoughts, , i fear you have missed my point. Of course it's good to believe that what you are doing will be of benefit. I'm talking about another type of " belief " that I read here every day. That is a " belief " that Epsom salts dilate ducts. A " belief " that everyone's liver is full of stones, when gastroenterologists tell us that intrahepatic stones are fatal unless treated in very aggressive manner! A " belief " that a liver cleanse causes the gall bladder to expel stones, while Barry bemoans the fact that he has passed 100s of what he regards as gallstones, yet the single one that makes him so uncomfortable still remains in place. These are the kind of beliefs that are passed on from one list member to another, each time reinforcing these beliefs, so that everyone has these beliefs, and they don't look for or find corroboration from people who have studied the matter scientifically. That would be fine in a religious discipline, but here we are dealing with the health of each and every one of us, and many treat it as a form of belief in the unknown. " I've also heard that . . . . " is a recurrent theme. Can I tell this to my doctor and expect to convince him/her? I hope I have made my observation more clear, so that can see that she didn't really answer my point. And now, *why* is this pseudo-religious faith of concern to me? Because I have to deal with medical professionals to whom I go for help, and I would love to be able to convince them that I have the answer. If a physician tells me, for example, that he has investigated, dissected, treated, imaged hundreds of livers and gall bladders and has seen none of the phenomena that all our list members belive in, my only response can be that Adrienne told me so, that she read it in a book written by someone who took a 100-hour correspondence course. And that Agnes believes it, and that Barry believes it but cannot understand why, despite all his efforts, he still has the painful gallstone that led him to his beliefs. (No offense to any of these people, of course, and my apologies to those whom I have not mentioned.) You understand that I do not have a leg to stand on in a discussion with a physician that has devoted tens of years to studying and treating people with the problems that you and I have. And I would like to be rid of my stones! And I'd like to keep my gall bladder. Is my position clear to anyone, or have I not explained myself clearly again? Does anyone see things the way I do? ----------------------- IRA L. JACOBSON ----------------------- mailto:laser@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 Has anyone ever actually had their stones analyzed? It would seem that that would be all anyone needed to disprove naysayers. But I still have to wonder, where were the many stones that should have been in my liver and gallbladder? >> _________________ Debra, there are many who would love to have their stones analyzed. However, in my case, I do not have the money to do it on my own, and my doctor sure won't do it. Do you know how to do it? If so, I'll save some up for you and you can test them. Also, Debra, if you go back and read some of the past posts, you'll see that some people have tried to have theirs analyzed. In one case the doctor threw them in the trash. There's several cases on there where either this happened, or the person's doctor said no way! About your liver stones, I suppose you're just a very fortunate person if you have none. Count your blessings! Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 Didn't Agnes post a link to a Lancet article a while ago on a study of flushing and gallstones? I seem to recall the study showed the test subjects expelled cholesterol stones. >> ____________________ Liz, Dr. who wrote the book entitled " Are You Stoned? " had his tested also. It showed they were gallstones. Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 Hi Ira, I can understand your side to this situation. This list is not inclusive to the results people have had with the cleanse/flush and so is it the expertise of the group here that concludes this must be gallstones.....well for the list yes. But you must also understand that to become " Naturopathic " doctor it takes as much college as for a " allopathic " doctor, look into it, I did as I was going to study for it. Now I think what I am trying to say is that there are naturopathic doctors who will disagree with some of the allopathic methods and there are allopathics who will disagree with naturopathics. What we really need is an understanding on the part of the physician to treat the situation that serves each individuals needs. Some people I am certain are in dire need of the operation as it is too far gone, damaged whatever for them to turn it around, however, there are also those that can benefit tremendously from alternative methods of treatment. I think the medical community at large, all sides of it, are working on changing some of what we are experiencing in the field of medicine and that is the line between allopath/naturopath/wholisitc. Is this anything to do with belief systems, well it really does because one group of physicians believes they had the best training and the other believes they did.....hmmm........I think they both have had excellent training, just that they need to combine this training to get a " Whole/Holisitic " view thus being able to better serve the patient. Just some thoughts. Peace Lucinda ----- Original Message ----- From: Ira L. son gallstones Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 7:48 AM Subject: Re: Beliefs and Cleansing sent the following text in Digest Number 1000: >So yes, I'd say it's critically important that a person believe that >what >they are doing is successful and good for their health. And so yes, >I can >understand why there are those who feel strongly about posting about >what >they believe about what they are doing. While I would find it hard to disagree with your thoughts, , i fear you have missed my point. Of course it's good to believe that what you are doing will be of benefit. I'm talking about another type of " belief " that I read here every day. That is a " belief " that Epsom salts dilate ducts. A " belief " that everyone's liver is full of stones, when gastroenterologists tell us that intrahepatic stones are fatal unless treated in very aggressive manner! A " belief " that a liver cleanse causes the gall bladder to expel stones, while Barry bemoans the fact that he has passed 100s of what he regards as gallstones, yet the single one that makes him so uncomfortable still remains in place. These are the kind of beliefs that are passed on from one list member to another, each time reinforcing these beliefs, so that everyone has these beliefs, and they don't look for or find corroboration from people who have studied the matter scientifically. That would be fine in a religious discipline, but here we are dealing with the health of each and every one of us, and many treat it as a form of belief in the unknown. " I've also heard that . . . . " is a recurrent theme. Can I tell this to my doctor and expect to convince him/her? I hope I have made my observation more clear, so that can see that she didn't really answer my point. And now, *why* is this pseudo-religious faith of concern to me? Because I have to deal with medical professionals to whom I go for help, and I would love to be able to convince them that I have the answer. If a physician tells me, for example, that he has investigated, dissected, treated, imaged hundreds of livers and gall bladders and has seen none of the phenomena that all our list members belive in, my only response can be that Adrienne told me so, that she read it in a book written by someone who took a 100-hour correspondence course. And that Agnes believes it, and that Barry believes it but cannot understand why, despite all his efforts, he still has the painful gallstone that led him to his beliefs. (No offense to any of these people, of course, and my apologies to those whom I have not mentioned.) You understand that I do not have a leg to stand on in a discussion with a physician that has devoted tens of years to studying and treating people with the problems that you and I have. And I would like to be rid of my stones! And I'd like to keep my gall bladder. Is my position clear to anyone, or have I not explained myself clearly again? Does anyone see things the way I do? ----------------------- IRA L. JACOBSON ----------------------- mailto:laser@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 Could we take up a collection of a few dollars per person so someone we all trust could get this done? It would be very interesting, and educational. I would think doctors would be very interested in checking them out. >> ____________________ Debra, I have a friend in the medical professional who is a RN, but she is not doing this anymore. So this leaves her out. Also, Debra, I do not want anybody's collection. If I ever run across a decent open-minded doctor, I will be sure to have mine checked out. As a matter of fact, I would love to have mine checked out. Maybe someone else on here has tried. Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 2/27/2002 8:48:39 AM, " Ira L. son " <laser@...> wrote: >You understand that I do not have a leg to stand on in a discussion >with a physician that has devoted tens of years to studying and >treating people with the problems that you and I have. For starters, you could sit him down and make him look at all the pictures at http://curezone.com/cleanse/liver/ Now my guess is that his surgical " beliefs " will be so strong that he will be unable to comprehend what is staring in his face. If he is really a doctor, he should be able to look at such as the removed diseased gallbladder and see that the stones inside are exactly like the hundreds of stones you collected and delivered to him from your flushes. Of course, there is little hope for him if he is of the ilk of cancer doctors who say, " Oh, there must have been a mis-diagnosis, " when people use natural methods to defeat cancer and then return to the office cancer-free. >And I would >like to be rid of my stones! And I'd like to keep my gall bladder. Ira, exactly how many flushes have you done? > >Is my position clear to anyone, or have I not explained myself >clearly again? Does anyone see things the way I do? > Your position is very clear. You want proof that will simply overwhelm all those years of " belief " building that medical school taught him. Keep in mind that there is no one so blind as someone who will not see. And don't get sucked into the " but how can you prove it? " baloney the trolls inject into this newsgroup. Regards, Rex Harrill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 Ira, You've brought up some very good points, but why are you so concerned about convincing your doctor of any thing? I don't feel that need, thus I don't understand the problem. I have what you disparage as a belief whether I take the word of your doctors or the word of others who have researched in different ways. It's intersting to me how some like your self seem to give more credibility to what the doctors say (when they are just repeating what they have been taught) than what others say who have come to different conclusions. If I read a book by Hulda , and she bases what she writes on observations and experiments, and I believe her; how is that different than believing the doctors? Now add that to the fact that my own experiences and observations following her protocol match her own. Now add to that my observations and experiences of the results doctors are getting match her observations of modern medicine. I can believe what and whom seems most valid. You are doing the same. Just make sure you look at all the facts. I wouldn't be concerned who agreed with me. I am more concerned with taking responsibility for my own health. Wishing you the best, Vince Richter >From: " Ira L. son " <laser@...> >Reply-gallstones >gallstones >Subject: Re: Beliefs and Cleansing >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:48:39 +0200 > > sent the following text in Digest Number 1000: > > >So yes, I'd say it's critically important that a person believe that > >what > >they are doing is successful and good for their health. And so yes, > >I can > >understand why there are those who feel strongly about posting about > >what > >they believe about what they are doing. > >While I would find it hard to disagree with your thoughts, , i >fear you have missed my point. Of course it's good to believe that >what you are doing will be of benefit. I'm talking about another >type of " belief " that I read here every day. > >That is a " belief " that Epsom salts dilate ducts. A " belief " that >everyone's liver is full of stones, when gastroenterologists tell us >that intrahepatic stones are fatal unless treated in very aggressive >manner! A " belief " that a liver cleanse causes the gall bladder to >expel stones, while Barry bemoans the fact that he has passed 100s of >what he regards as gallstones, yet the single one that makes him so >uncomfortable still remains in place. > >These are the kind of beliefs that are passed on from one list member >to another, each time reinforcing these beliefs, so that everyone has >these beliefs, and they don't look for or find corroboration from >people who have studied the matter scientifically. That would be >fine in a religious discipline, but here we are dealing with the >health of each and every one of us, and many treat it as a form of >belief in the unknown. > > " I've also heard that . . . . " is a recurrent theme. Can I tell this >to my doctor and expect to convince him/her? > >I hope I have made my observation more clear, so that can see >that she didn't really answer my point. > >And now, *why* is this pseudo-religious faith of concern to >me? Because I have to deal with medical professionals to whom I go >for help, and I would love to be able to convince them that I have >the answer. If a physician tells me, for example, that he has >investigated, dissected, treated, imaged hundreds of livers and gall >bladders and has seen none of the phenomena that all our list members >belive in, my only response can be that Adrienne told me so, that she >read it in a book written by someone who took a 100-hour >correspondence course. And that Agnes believes it, and that Barry >believes it but cannot understand why, despite all his efforts, he >still has the painful gallstone that led him to his beliefs. (No >offense to any of these people, of course, and my apologies to those >whom I have not mentioned.) > >You understand that I do not have a leg to stand on in a discussion >with a physician that has devoted tens of years to studying and >treating people with the problems that you and I have. And I would >like to be rid of my stones! And I'd like to keep my gall bladder. > >Is my position clear to anyone, or have I not explained myself >clearly again? Does anyone see things the way I do? > > > >----------------------- >IRA L. JACOBSON >----------------------- >mailto:laser@... > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 Once again I see we have the mind of an engineer in debate; stones or no stones, does diet and processes of the liver flush work to remove stones or create them? Are stones in fact in such numbers as to be inhabiting the liver and the gallbladder in the hundreds? Does Magnisium Sulfate (Epsom Salts) really do anything with the bile ducts so as to help in the dilating of the structure so as to permit the passage of large bodies of matter? The facts are these; Magnisum http://www.execpc.com/~magnesum/rod16.html The assumption that the magnisum dialates is wrong but I've not been too concerned about that fact here because of it's overall benifit. Here you will not only find that it really works to help the cellular elasticty but I think the information will help in reasoning its benifit in doing a flush and dealing with bile ducts and any inflamation or infection that may be in them. Stones in the liver The fact of the matter here is the bile coagulants that are refered to as gallstones do congest the liver as well as the gallbladder. It just simply is called a bile stone instead of a gallstone even though they look the same. However, unless one takes a liver and slices it into many smaller sections it just isn't going to be possible to see the stones that are there because of their size and the internal density of the liver compared to the gallbladders being a sack. They are, for the most part, not all that large in the liver so an ultrasound or an X-ray are not going to detect them as being there, unless they are another substance other than wax, such as calcium. An MRI however may be the best means of detection but that's pretty cost preventative for most proceedures. For calcium or wax stones it isn't going to be too hard for an MRI to make a detection of a biliary obstruction called.......bile stones. http://www.kumc.edu/instruction/medicine/pathology/ed/ch_14/c14_s28.html The effect of bile and bile stone formation (note that it will be now a bile stone, for engineering effectiveness of the primary property of the stones formation) can be considered much the same as the soap purchased to wash the dishes to clean off the fat deposits that may be there, like the fat left from the dripping meat of a sweet and juicy hamburger that just happened to be loaded with fat (but what else to make it so tasty and palitable). Bile comes in quality levels much the same as the purchase of quality detergents. Cheap detergents may require more to be poured in the water to act as a surfactant to get the fats emusified and held in suspention, and thereby keeping it from precipitating back to the plates or the side walls of the sink. Quality soaps can have a better emulsifying and surfactant factor in water for suppension of fat particles. As regards the manufacturing of stones by the body from the consuming of oil and citrus fruit I don't think that's going to merit any time for disucssion as it can be easily reasoned away by the most basic of cognizance of the process needed to produce various forms of soaps by saponification. There are plenty of sites to check out on how to make soaps that will convince most anyone reading them that it is time consuming and requires substantive heat of which the human body just can not provide. And last but, I certainly hope not the least, is the fact that I personally went thorough the living hell that many of the posters, who come here looking for a means of getting rid of bile stones, have gone. For seven months I tried to learn just enough to get by with, and hopefully get rid of, the " A " stone that my doctor reported to me as existing in my gallblader, which was also thickened and therefore diseased and needing removeal, or so he said, at that time. As far as I knew my stone was a golfball but after a month of preparation I decided to take a dive into fate, whatever that may be, to see if I couldn't get rid of that " A " stone. At the end of 1999 I had my fourth, and to this day worst attack that sent me to the hospital. But, interstingly enough it wasn't because of an obstruction by a bile stone or any other obstruction for that matter. I had a liver attack because of my ingnorance and laziness in dealing with my condition. I had an attack in August and swore to stay away from any forms of fats, and from that time on I did really good at staying away from fats. So good in fact that I damaged my liver doing so. I, in my ignorance, didn't realize this until I went to the hospital in October of that year, was stone free, but had elevated levels of AST, ALK, ALT, and bilirubin. My liver and gallbladder looked normal excepting enlarged bile ducts in the liver and its damage from no fat consumption. I haven't been back to get another ultrasound to see just how things are doing, but I'm going to have to assume that since I've been appling what I learned from Dr. Cabot on how to eat for my liver's benifit, and haven't had an attack in over two years, that something must be getting done right. One important fact was when I did vist with my doctor for the follow-up to this last emergency visit I asked him what he thought about the fact that there was no stone and that my gallbladder now looked healthy. His statement to my wife and I was " You can't argue with success! " . However, some will. Ira, if you really are looking for an answer that would be great. However, I can't say that I've really seen you as seeking an answer because I'm of the belief (see that word appeared here too, sorry) that you have some sort of agenda of which I can't decide just what it is you're trying to do. Perhaps you would be so kind as to just come right out and say just what you really are thinking and not keep playing games with these people who have kept trying to help you. I can appreciate that you are an engineer. So, I know that to be of that education you certainly have mental prowness and can more than likely really come out with some substantive information from which to debate. I'm just asking that you be sure to back it up with cognisant reasoning and some facts. I wish to be convinced, and I'm sure the others here are too, that we are wrong in doing what we've been doing to get to and to maintain better health. But, if you think you're going to be able to find information here that you can take to a common doctor and expect to convince him otherwise I don't think that's going to happen. That is unless they have the demeanor of a doctor such as Dr. Cabot. There are doctors to whom you can talk about your liver or gallbladder condition, if in fact you have a contition needing their care, but don't expect there to be too many who will advise an alternative means besides surgury or some other AMA approved medication. Ira, I'm sorry to have to say this but I find you to be wormwood to this group. You have not supported one thing that you written with substantive backing at to why you would be needing the information. Nor have you been thankfull for anything that's been written to you. I've just seen bitterness and abuse in question form. If you would like to email me in direct debate regarding the subject of gallstones I invite you to do that. Other than that I would only ask that you not be so high minded to the people on this group when in fact you're seeking to do the opposite. and others here are new to the process of liver and gallbladder cleansing and try to do good by being encouraging but often times go overboard and are short of acuracy in giving answers to questions that are still in debate within the medical community, but at least they are genuinely concerned and are doing the best they know how to do to help others who come here seeking help. You on the other hand have found a forum for devil's advocacy and relish within that. This sure reminds me of a Star Teck adventure regarding an entity that lived for the day in getting things perturb. Dale <<<<<< sent the following text in Digest Number 1000: >So yes, I'd say it's critically important that a person believe that >what >they are doing is successful and good for their health. And so yes, >I can >understand why there are those who feel strongly about posting about >what >they believe about what they are doing. While I would find it hard to disagree with your thoughts, , i fear you have missed my point. Of course it's good to believe that what you are doing will be of benefit. I'm talking about another type of " belief " that I read here every day. That is a " belief " that Epsom salts dilate ducts. A " belief " that everyone's liver is full of stones, when gastroenterologists tell us that intrahepatic stones are fatal unless treated in very aggressive manner! A " belief " that a liver cleanse causes the gall bladder to expel stones, while Barry bemoans the fact that he has passed 100s of what he regards as gallstones, yet the single one that makes him so uncomfortable still remains in place. These are the kind of beliefs that are passed on from one list member to another, each time reinforcing these beliefs, so that everyone has these beliefs, and they don't look for or find corroboration from people who have studied the matter scientifically. That would be fine in a religious discipline, but here we are dealing with the health of each and every one of us, and many treat it as a form of belief in the unknown. " I've also heard that . . . . " is a recurrent theme. Can I tell this to my doctor and expect to convince him/her? I hope I have made my observation more clear, so that can see that she didn't really answer my point. And now, *why* is this pseudo-religious faith of concern to me? Because I have to deal with medical professionals to whom I go for help, and I would love to be able to convince them that I have the answer. If a physician tells me, for example, that he has investigated, dissected, treated, imaged hundreds of livers and gall bladders and has seen none of the phenomena that all our list members belive in, my only response can be that Adrienne told me so, that she read it in a book written by someone who took a 100-hour correspondence course. And that Agnes believes it, and that Barry believes it but cannot understand why, despite all his efforts, he still has the painful gallstone that led him to his beliefs. (No offense to any of these people, of course, and my apologies to those whom I have not mentioned.) You understand that I do not have a leg to stand on in a discussion with a physician that has devoted tens of years to studying and treating people with the problems that you and I have. And I would like to be rid of my stones! And I'd like to keep my gall bladder. Is my position clear to anyone, or have I not explained myself clearly again? Does anyone see things the way I do? ----------------------- IRA L. JACOBSON ----------------------- mailto:laser@...>>>>>>>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 laser@... writes: << While I would find it hard to disagree with your thoughts, , i < fear you have missed my point. Of course it's good to believe that < what you are doing will be of benefit. I'm talking about another < type of " belief " that I read here every day. >> <smile> No, Ira, I actually got your point completely. Forgive my bluntness, but it doesn't seem to me that you're really interested in a discussion, but more that you are interested in pontificating. So I wasn't answering your post, per se, but rather merely taking a turn from your post. If you read this group regularly you'll see that happens often. People are usually interested in exchanges of thought, but not necessarily interested in battling out differences of perspective. I, for one, would prefer to invest my energy in a more positive direction. I'm sure there are others who are interested in debating the stream of doubts that you bring up, but that's not what I'm here for. I merely gave you my observation of what is meant by the term " belief " when it is used out here. And to answer your last question in your post...no, I don't think anyone out here sees things quite the way you do. in health, rachel~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 new_man85@... writes: << I wouldn't be concerned who agreed with me. I am more concerned with taking responsibility for my own health. >> Well said, Vince! rachel~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 fairyflight@... writes: << This puzzles me also, as does everyone's seeming reluctance to hear that my < liver had no stones, and my gallbladder only had four. This is my factual < experience, yet people get mad at me for relating it. >> Not everyone is reluctant to hear it. I mean absolutely no disrespect when I say this, but I, for one, am not really concerned with how many stones your liver has or doesn't have. I'm not being unkind here, just pointing out that nobody's out to get you because you say you had no stones in your liver and I have never seen a post that indicated that anyone was mad at you for saying that you didn't have any. Perhaps you're reading into things - we all share experiences and each one is different than the next. Perhaps you have no stones in your liver and perhaps you're the only one out here who doesn't, but sharing that information is no problem. If you were to imply that nobody else has stones in their liver either, then that's not appropriate. Personally, I have no idea whether or not I have stones in my liver and it is of no consequence to me where the stones are or what you call them as long as they come out. In my opinion, there is no need to defend yourself for having a stone-free liver. Just be sure to respect the opinions and experiences of others in the same way that you'd like them to respect yours. just my .02 rachel~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 scottherm@... writes: << You certainly put a lot of time into this email! << Thanks for the focus, >> Just wanted to echo 's thought. Thanks, Dale, for yet another detailed and informative post. That's one that will be referred to often! in health, rachel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 Personally, I have no idea whether or not I have stones in my liver and it is of no consequence to me where the stones are or what you call them as long as they come out. _______________ , very well stated. Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 Thanks, Dale, for yet another detailed and informative post. That's one that will be referred to often! in health, >> ______________ Dale, I agree with here. Also, Dale, that's a very good article about magnesium. It's a must-save! Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 >>. A " belief " that everyone's liver is full of stones, when gastroenterologists tell us that intrahepatic stones are fatal unless treated in very aggressive manner! << This puzzles me also, as does everyone's seeming reluctance to hear that my liver had no stones, and my gallbladder only had four. This is my factual experience, yet people get mad at me for relating it. Debra _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 >>It's intersting to me how some like your self seem to give more credibility to what the doctors say (when they are just repeating what they have been taught) than what others say who have come to different conclusions. << I gave credibility to my doctor because he has actually seen the insides of more gallbladders and livers than I have. I have a hard time understanding why some folks give this type of experience no credibility. Instead they just blow it off with the opinion that doctors have bad intentions. I am not saying that your experiences are invalid, so please don't take it that way. I do agree with Ira though, that some things which are discussed as facts here may not all be totally factual. Not that the experiences are not real, just that the results may not always be exactly what people think they are. Has anyone ever actually had their stones analyzed? It would seem that that would be all anyone needed to disprove naysayers. But I still have to wonder, where were the many stones that should have been in my liver and gallbladder? Debra _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 Well explained and very clear. Thanks for your comment. Sam -----Original Message----- From: Ira L. son [mailto:laser@...] Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 5:49 AM gallstones Subject: Re: Beliefs and Cleansing sent the following text in Digest Number 1000: >So yes, I'd say it's critically important that a person believe that >what >they are doing is successful and good for their health. And so yes, >I can >understand why there are those who feel strongly about posting about >what >they believe about what they are doing. While I would find it hard to disagree with your thoughts, , i fear you have missed my point. Of course it's good to believe that what you are doing will be of benefit. I'm talking about another type of " belief " that I read here every day. That is a " belief " that Epsom salts dilate ducts. A " belief " that everyone's liver is full of stones, when gastroenterologists tell us that intrahepatic stones are fatal unless treated in very aggressive manner! A " belief " that a liver cleanse causes the gall bladder to expel stones, while Barry bemoans the fact that he has passed 100s of what he regards as gallstones, yet the single one that makes him so uncomfortable still remains in place. These are the kind of beliefs that are passed on from one list member to another, each time reinforcing these beliefs, so that everyone has these beliefs, and they don't look for or find corroboration from people who have studied the matter scientifically. That would be fine in a religious discipline, but here we are dealing with the health of each and every one of us, and many treat it as a form of belief in the unknown. " I've also heard that . . . . " is a recurrent theme. Can I tell this to my doctor and expect to convince him/her? I hope I have made my observation more clear, so that can see that she didn't really answer my point. And now, *why* is this pseudo-religious faith of concern to me? Because I have to deal with medical professionals to whom I go for help, and I would love to be able to convince them that I have the answer. If a physician tells me, for example, that he has investigated, dissected, treated, imaged hundreds of livers and gall bladders and has seen none of the phenomena that all our list members belive in, my only response can be that Adrienne told me so, that she read it in a book written by someone who took a 100-hour correspondence course. And that Agnes believes it, and that Barry believes it but cannot understand why, despite all his efforts, he still has the painful gallstone that led him to his beliefs. (No offense to any of these people, of course, and my apologies to those whom I have not mentioned.) You understand that I do not have a leg to stand on in a discussion with a physician that has devoted tens of years to studying and treating people with the problems that you and I have. And I would like to be rid of my stones! And I'd like to keep my gall bladder. Is my position clear to anyone, or have I not explained myself clearly again? Does anyone see things the way I do? ----------------------- IRA L. JACOBSON ----------------------- mailto:laser@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 Susie, No, I am not capable of analyzing stones. It just seems funny to me that with the large membership this list has, not one person has been successful at having them analyzed. Doesn't someone have a friend in the medical profession who can help them out? Could we take up a collection of a few dollars per person so someone we all trust could get this done? It would be very interesting, and educational. I would think doctors would be very interested in checking them out. Debra _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2002 Report Share Posted February 27, 2002 I'm actually having mine analyzed as we speak. I should have the results next week and will share them with you all. Mine were the pea green type. A lot of " gravel " but some larger ones about 1/2 " . These were not " hard as rock " stones, so they didn't show up on any tests that I've had so far. I'll let you know.....- Pascucci D B wrote: > Has anyone ever actually had their stones analyzed? > > Debra > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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