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Re: Just a thought-Barry

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Barry,

I know I'm jumping in here...and I might be reading your post wrong, so, I hope

you won't take offense, but Debra has already stated numerous times why she

posts here. It's always good, IMO, to here different sides of the same story.

;-) Debra keeps me on my toes!

Adrienne

barry91162 <barry91162@...> wrote: Debra,

Glad to hear you are problem free and have an opinion of your own.

What are you doing in a Gallstone cleanse site?

Barry.

>

>

> Barry,

>

> My cholangiogram showed my liver to be stone-free. I have no

problems, and

> have a different opinion about it anyway.

>

> Debra

>

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at

http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

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Adrienne,

You are right, I remember now. Debra is the one that doesn't cleanse,

doesn't believe we are getting stones out, and is only here to help

other people recover from gallbladder surgery. Am I right?

Barry.

> >

> >

> > Barry,

> >

> > My cholangiogram showed my liver to be stone-free. I have no

> problems, and

> > have a different opinion about it anyway.

> >

> > Debra

> >

> >

> >

> > _________________________________________________________________

> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at

> http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

>

>

>

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>>You are right, I remember now. Debra is the one that doesn't cleanse,

doesn't believe we are getting stones out, and is only here to help

other people recover from gallbladder surgery. Am I right?<<

Sensing a little resentment here, Barry. As I have said before, what I do

or believe has absolutely no affect on you, so I do not see why it should

bother you. I am here to offer support and information to the few people

who opt for surgery, because I have been there. I don't promote it, or in

anyway try to influence people to have it. It should not be the first

choice, in my opinion. It wasn't mine. I am happy that you are content

with the choices you are making, and that you are meeting with success.

Negative emotions directed toward someone you don't even know are not

particularly healthy. So we see something differently....big deal. We will

never know all of the things we might agree on about life in general. But,

if you resent me because I express a different opinion than do you, well,

that is your choice. It won't be mine.

I wish you continued success.

Debra

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Debra,

It doesn't bother me what your opinion is. Also, I am not resentful

at all by your opinions. My opinion is that we are getting out 'real'

stones and that this gallstone cleansing is not just a bunch of bunk

and we are fooling ourselves believeing that what we are getting out

is real stones instead of oil.

Just my opinion, and I hope it is also respected and not resented in

any way. :-)

Barry.

>

> >>You are right, I remember now. Debra is the one that doesn't

cleanse,

> doesn't believe we are getting stones out, and is only here to help

> other people recover from gallbladder surgery. Am I right?<<

>

> Sensing a little resentment here, Barry. As I have said before,

what I do

> or believe has absolutely no affect on you, so I do not see why it

should

> bother you. I am here to offer support and information to the few

people

> who opt for surgery, because I have been there. I don't promote

it, or in

> anyway try to influence people to have it. It should not be the

first

> choice, in my opinion. It wasn't mine. I am happy that you are

content

> with the choices you are making, and that you are meeting with

success.

> Negative emotions directed toward someone you don't even know are

not

> particularly healthy. So we see something differently....big

deal. We will

> never know all of the things we might agree on about life in

general. But,

> if you resent me because I express a different opinion than do you,

well,

> that is your choice. It won't be mine.

>

> I wish you continued success.

>

> Debra

>

>

>

>

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at

http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

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----- Original Message -----

From: " Adrienne McLaughlin " <adriennelynn1@...>

<gallstones >

Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 9:28 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Just a thought-Barry

Barry, Debra and Adrienne.....this train of thought is starting to get

tired. I do agree with all of you in that we each make our own decisions

and are certainly entitled to our own opinions but this entire thread is

beginning to turn into a benign flame war with a never ending string of

apologies. It is sad when anyone has to have surgery of any kind,

gallbladder or otherwise but.....according to Dr. Schulze....(my

hero)....a liver flush is beneficial in spite of and especially if you have

had your gallbladder removed. With respect to all opinions expressed here,

I offer no apology for my own...... " flush, flush, we must, we must, we must,

flush, flush......... "

Kindest of wishes to all the gentlefolks on this panel.....Betsy

>

> Hey Barry,

> Once again, I'm jumping in. It's my opinion, that Debra's opinion,

concerning the validity of the liver cleanse, holds very little weight. The

reason being....she has never done a liver cleanse(or felt the need of one,

I'm assuming), and so, has no experience to offer an opinion with. Those of

us who have done the cleanse, and have experienced the benefits of it, know

the validity of what we are doing. When she gives information regarding

what she herself has experienced...that holds more weight. I do agree, that

sometimes I'd rather not hear her negative opinion ....negative in the sense

that it is an opinion totally opposite from mine. And it can be wearying to

have to hear it in this kind of forum, because we are here to support each

other. Still, negative opinions can be helpful in defining our own...giving

us even more confidence. I personally want to know that what I am doing is

the best that I can do for myself. So, if hearing the opposite opinion

causes me to be more discerning about my own opinion, then it can actually

be a positive thing. (Am I making sense?)

> And Debra, I don't mean to be talking about you in the third person...I

just did so for the sake of getting my point across.

> Thanks,

> Adrienne

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It is not being negative to observe olive oil

balls being expelled in the midst of all the other stuff. Who could get

upset at this? It doesn't take away from the good that is happening. The oil

has to go somewhere and it comes out in the company of the bad stuff the way

it should do. >>

_______________

Sam, let's say you're correct, we pass olive oil each time. If this is

correct, then it should be every time, right? Especially when many of us add

lots more olive oil sometimes to the recipe. However, there's been plenty of

times that I haven't passed these blobs of so-called oil. As a matter of

fact, I rarely do it anymore at all. Sometimes I've passed a bunch of

sand/sludge,along with little tannish-colored stone things.

Susie

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>>but this entire thread is

beginning to turn into a benign flame war <<

Well, although I may have felt a bit resented, I have certainly not felt

flamed.

Debra

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If Debra has an opinion that is 'strongly

disclaiming' to the stones being real, my opinion will only be

equally strong to support the belief that they are real.

After all, we all are here to help each other with encouragement, not

to disclaim our results. This is a " Gallbladder cleanse " group, not

a " Gallblader surgery recovering group " . Maybe someone should start

one of those...? >>

____________________

Barry, I agree with you. I posted some stuff earlier that Dr. Mercola has on

his website. I was almost afraid to post it in thinking that it might offend

someone who doesn't do this. However, the new articles at Dr. Mercola's are

beneficial to us.

I told my husband about those claiming that we aren't passing stones, that

we're passing olive oil or soap stones or whatever. Of course, everyone is

entitled to their own opinion, I agree. But this is a gallstone support

group. If someone wants to discuss surgery, then I'm sure there's plenty of

surgery groups out there.

Oh, my husband says about the oil stones or whatever, Baloney, that's nothing

that I've never seen before.

Susie

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I feel that all these opinions are of value!!!!

westoo <westoo@...> wrote:

----- Original Message -----

From: " Adrienne McLaughlin " <adriennelynn1@...>

<gallstones >

Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 9:28 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Just a thought-Barry

Barry, Debra and Adrienne.....this train of thought is starting to get

tired. I do agree with all of you in that we each make our own decisions

and are certainly entitled to our own opinions but this entire thread is

beginning to turn into a benign flame war with a never ending string of

apologies. It is sad when anyone has to have surgery of any kind,

gallbladder or otherwise but.....according to Dr. Schulze....(my

hero)....a liver flush is beneficial in spite of and especially if you have

had your gallbladder removed. With respect to all opinions expressed here,

I offer no apology for my own...... " flush, flush, we must, we must, we must,

flush, flush......... "

Kindest of wishes to all the gentlefolks on this panel.....Betsy

>

> Hey Barry,

> Once again, I'm jumping in. It's my opinion, that Debra's opinion,

concerning the validity of the liver cleanse, holds very little weight. The

reason being....she has never done a liver cleanse(or felt the need of one,

I'm assuming), and so, has no experience to offer an opinion with. Those of

us who have done the cleanse, and have experienced the benefits of it, know

the validity of what we are doing. When she gives information regarding

what she herself has experienced...that holds more weight. I do agree, that

sometimes I'd rather not hear her negative opinion ....negative in the sense

that it is an opinion totally opposite from mine. And it can be wearying to

have to hear it in this kind of forum, because we are here to support each

other. Still, negative opinions can be helpful in defining our own...giving

us even more confidence. I personally want to know that what I am doing is

the best that I can do for myself. So, if hearing the opposite opinion

causes me to be more discerning about my own opinion, then it can actually

be a positive thing. (Am I making sense?)

> And Debra, I don't mean to be talking about you in the third person...I

just did so for the sake of getting my point across.

> Thanks,

> Adrienne

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----- Original Message -----

From: " scott hermance " <scottherm@...>

<gallstones >

Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 3:08 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Just a thought-Barry

They certainly are, . Without each others opinions, we'd all be lost.

Thanks for _that_ opinion! Betsy

wrote:

> I feel that all these opinions are of value!!!!

>

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Statements like the quoted below are not helpful, don't add anything to the

discussion and are equivalent to a dog chasing it's own tail.

There is no guarantee that all " stones " that appear as a result of an olive

oil cleanse are not at least partly made up of the olive oil itself. So

what's the problem with this? None whatsoever. The fact is, olive oil

cleanses do help the body rid itself of stones, chaff and other debris. No

one has argued against this. It is not being negative to observe olive oil

balls being expelled in the midst of all the other stuff. Who could get

upset at this? It doesn't take away from the good that is happening. The oil

has to go somewhere and it comes out in the company of the bad stuff the way

it should do.

Sam

>>Those of us in a gallstones cleanse group shouldn't have

to listen to someone who doesn't believe the cleanses eliminate

stones. Do you realize that every time you make a statement about

these cleanses not being stones that it is you who is

being 'negative'? I don't direct negative feelings toward you or

anyone, only what you have to say. It's nothing personal. <<

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By the way, Sam and Debra are from the same e-mail source. You may

hear opposition to our flushes eliminating 'real' stones by both.

_________

Barry, well, Maybe Sam is Debra and Debra is Sam, or whatever.

I do believe that we're passing the real stuff, by all means. I have no

doubt about that. Now, what we need to do is find a way to shrink your stone

that you have. Dr. Mercola has a new article about gallstones, and he has

listed foods that help reduce stones. Have you looked today?

http://www.mercola.com/2002/feb/20/gallbladder_depression.htm

Please read all associated articles at the bottom of the page where he has

links.

Also, Barry, this stuff has helped me NOT have attacks, and that's the

Beta-TCP stuff. I haven't had an attack since I started taking it, although

at times my GB has been sore, so I just stick some heat on it and take a few

magnesium capsules. I still do cleanses and plan on it Sunday night. I had

to put it off a few days because of work.

But if you're having normal colored BMs and you know 100 percent you have a

stone, then I would suggest trying it. It really does relieve you. It's not

very expensive either. I buy two bottles at a time and they are $13 a piece.

You take three with meals, but if I'm having fresh juice or a salad or

whatever, I don't take them with that, so I don't take them with every meal.

I think it's 3 pills, three times a day. I don't take that many. What it

usually ends up being with me is just 3 pills a day at dinner. It's helped

me tremendously. This would be good until you're thinning that stone down.

At least you wouldn't probably be having the pains. Of course, all things

don't help for all people. You'd just have to try and see.

Susie

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Thanks for the link. I'll check it out. I've heard that Beta-TCP

thins the bile so that it is in a more 'watery' state and can pass

out of the gb easier than a thick, creamy bile. >>

______________

Barry, yeah, this must be what makes it easier for me. I know some who have

GBs use Beta-Plus, but I think that a healthcare professional has to decide

what's best for you. When I first bought Beta-TCP, I only thought that

Beta-Plus was just for people who didn't have GBs, but that's not the case.

This is something that I recently found out.

I've tried the Lecithin alone, but it didn't work as well as this for me. I

still take Lecithin, though.

Anyway, hope you can reduce this stubborn stone. I may have some stubborn

ones, but I can't afford tests. The doctor that I was going to wouldn't hear

of me doing this anyway. He doesn't care for natural healing methods, by any

means.

Susie

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Susie,

You are right. Also olive oil does not form into balls inside your

body at body tempature. Olive oil can only gel at a cold

refridgerated tempature.

By the way, Sam and Debra are from the same e-mail source. You may

hear opposition to our flushes eliminating 'real' stones by both.

Barry.

> It is not being negative to observe olive oil

> balls being expelled in the midst of all the other stuff. Who

could get

> upset at this? It doesn't take away from the good that is

happening. The oil

> has to go somewhere and it comes out in the company of the bad

stuff the way

> it should do. >>

> _______________

>

> Sam, let's say you're correct, we pass olive oil each time. If

this is

> correct, then it should be every time, right? Especially when many

of us add

> lots more olive oil sometimes to the recipe. However, there's been

plenty of

> times that I haven't passed these blobs of so-called oil. As a

matter of

> fact, I rarely do it anymore at all. Sometimes I've passed a bunch

of

> sand/sludge,along with little tannish-colored stone things.

> Susie

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Susie,

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out. I've heard that Beta-TCP

thins the bile so that it is in a more 'watery' state and can pass

out of the gb easier than a thick, creamy bile.

Also, I've heard Lecithin will break up fats in a meal but not change

the consistancy of bile. I'm looking into both of these at the same

time that I am trying to reduce the stone with diet. Dieting hasn't

helped reduce the stone so that it will flush easily and I am

considering 'crushing' with ultrasonic but it is not available in my

area. Also, I'm a little apprehensive about the crushed jagged edges

of a stone getting caught somewhere like the pancreas area.

I'll definitely let the group know how I finally get it out. That is

my main goal now. Even if it ends up being surgery. I'm going to do

everything I can first to eliminate it with a more natural way and

keep my gallbladder since I think it is generally in good working

order.

Thanks again.

Barry.

> By the way, Sam and Debra are from the same e-mail source. You may

> hear opposition to our flushes eliminating 'real' stones by both.

> _________

>

> Barry, well, Maybe Sam is Debra and Debra is Sam, or whatever.

>

> I do believe that we're passing the real stuff, by all means. I

have no

> doubt about that. Now, what we need to do is find a way to shrink

your stone

> that you have. Dr. Mercola has a new article about gallstones, and

he has

> listed foods that help reduce stones. Have you looked today?

> http://www.mercola.com/2002/feb/20/gallbladder_depression.htm

>

> Please read all associated articles at the bottom of the page where

he has

> links.

>

> Also, Barry, this stuff has helped me NOT have attacks, and that's

the

> Beta-TCP stuff. I haven't had an attack since I started taking it,

although

> at times my GB has been sore, so I just stick some heat on it and

take a few

> magnesium capsules. I still do cleanses and plan on it Sunday

night. I had

> to put it off a few days because of work.

>

> But if you're having normal colored BMs and you know 100 percent

you have a

> stone, then I would suggest trying it. It really does relieve

you. It's not

> very expensive either. I buy two bottles at a time and they are

$13 a piece.

> You take three with meals, but if I'm having fresh juice or a

salad or

> whatever, I don't take them with that, so I don't take them with

every meal.

> I think it's 3 pills, three times a day. I don't take that many.

What it

> usually ends up being with me is just 3 pills a day at dinner.

It's helped

> me tremendously. This would be good until you're thinning that

stone down.

> At least you wouldn't probably be having the pains. Of course, all

things

> don't help for all people. You'd just have to try and see.

> Susie

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In a message dated 22/2/02 21:09:01 GMT Standard Time, scottherm@...

writes:

> I feel that all these opinions are of value!!!!

>

opinions are valuable - bickering and score seeking is not.

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Susie,

Thanks for those tips. Lecithin and Beta-TCP together? I guess

whatever works is good. I'll try th Beta-TCP first because I've heard

it will 'thin' the bile. The Lecithin is more to break up the fatty

meal that goes in (which I don't do much of that anymore anyways). At

least this is what I've gathered that Lecithin can do. Do you know if

Lecithin also thins the bile as well?

By the way, if you had any of these kinds of stones you would

definitely know it. There is no question about the pain. Eat a big

fatty meal and if you have hard pain for a few hours in the night,

you will know you have a hard to pass gb stone. The pain is hard and

you can't miss it. haha

Good luck with your health.

Barry.

> Thanks for the link. I'll check it out. I've heard that Beta-TCP

> thins the bile so that it is in a more 'watery' state and can pass

> out of the gb easier than a thick, creamy bile. >>

> ______________

>

> Barry, yeah, this must be what makes it easier for me. I know some

who have

> GBs use Beta-Plus, but I think that a healthcare professional has

to decide

> what's best for you. When I first bought Beta-TCP, I only thought

that

> Beta-Plus was just for people who didn't have GBs, but that's not

the case.

> This is something that I recently found out.

>

> I've tried the Lecithin alone, but it didn't work as well as this

for me. I

> still take Lecithin, though.

>

> Anyway, hope you can reduce this stubborn stone. I may have some

stubborn

> ones, but I can't afford tests. The doctor that I was going to

wouldn't hear

> of me doing this anyway. He doesn't care for natural healing

methods, by any

> means.

> Susie

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>>This is a " Gallbladder cleanse " group, not

a " Gallblader surgery recovering group " . Maybe someone should start

one of those...?<<

Statements like this only make me feel that it is more important for me to

remain here. There are some people who will come here, become a part of

this community, and then for whatever reasons, end up having surgery. (As

was my case.) It is important that someone be here to let them know that

they are not failures, to give them information that they may otherwise not

be able to get, from a community they are already a part of. I have already

helped several people who have been on this list, and that is why I am here.

As I have said before, if you do not care for my opinions, just hit the

delete key.

Debra

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>>If someone wants to discuss surgery, then I'm sure there's plenty of

surgery groups out there.<<

I generally only discuss surgery with those undergoing it, usually off-list.

The fact that I had surgery comes up in such topics as stones in the

liver, when I mention that a cholangiogram showed I was stone-free. I never

discuss surgery as being the first or best option. I don't even make that

case to people who are seriously considering it, I suggest that they hang

out here a while to see what they can learn first. I am constantly amazed

that (some) people so sure of their convictions are bothered by what I have

to say.

Debra

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>>Since you choose to read my opinions and comment, instead of

deleting, I will offer you the same. Believe me, if it was only you

and I in here, the delete key would definitely be useful. :-)<<

The difference is, Barry, that I have never stated that your opinions should

not be expressed here, or that we, " don't need to hear them, "

which you have stated of mine. And a little smiley face after an insult

does not hide the intent. If you expect me to respond in kind, I am afraid

you will be disappointed. I think you've gotten yourself way too worked up

over one person's opinions. Your choice.

Debra

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>>By the way, Sam and Debra are from the same e-mail source. You may

hear opposition to our flushes eliminating 'real' stones by both. <<

????????????????? Sorry, I don't have any idea what you mean by this. And

again, I have never stated that I don't believe it eliminates stones, only

that I have a different opinion about the numbers. My opinion should not

bother you.

Debra

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>>Barry, well, Maybe Sam is Debra and Debra is Sam, or whatever.<<

Oh my god, too funny!! Sam, looks like you may be being called a troll

pretty soon too. But take heart, and remember that it is the minority of

people on this list who feel threatened by different opinions.

Debra

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Debra,

To be honest with you..Your personal opinions never 'bother' me at

all. I am not offended by anyones ignorance of a situation. As long

as we are in a public group, your negative opposition or belief in

our cleanses (where stones come from, stones being real, 100 of

stones being real, etc)will be met with equal positive support(or

opposition in your case). Debating goes two ways.

Your opinions are not 'bad'. They may not be true, but they are yours

none the less. I will continue to support mine as well.

By the way, taking little bits of posts out of text only trys to

confuse the discussion and you only look more ignorant when you do

that. Everyone in here knows the context anyway.

That little smile is actually a laugh, not a smile. I find some

people to be funny.

Also, I have never seen anyone in here who has had surgery asking you

for advice about what to do without a gb. There is plenty of

information about that already. You actually are spending more time

in here declaiming what we believe to be successful stone eliminating

while keeping our vital digestive organ than you do helping people

recover after surgery. Everyone knows and sees this fact already.

I don't consider anyone a failure for not keeping their gb. Some

people who have a diseased gb have no choice but to remove it. Most

people can save it if they try. That's what we are doing in this

group. We are taking the alternate medicine route to save our

digestive organs. We firmly believe in what we are doing because we

have positive results and feel overall better for cleansing vs.

surgery. We thrive on the battle to save our organs. If you have

given yours up, please don't feel as though you are a failure, you

just took another option.

Barry.

>

> >>Since you choose to read my opinions and comment, instead of

> deleting, I will offer you the same. Believe me, if it was only you

> and I in here, the delete key would definitely be useful. :-)<<

>

> The difference is, Barry, that I have never stated that your

opinions should

> not be expressed here, or that we, " don't need to hear them, "

> which you have stated of mine. And a little smiley face after an

insult

> does not hide the intent. If you expect me to respond in kind, I

am afraid

> you will be disappointed. I think you've gotten yourself way too

worked up

> over one person's opinions. Your choice.

>

>

> Debra

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device:

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Debra,

The posts coming from 'Debra' and 'Sam' are from the same e-mail

source. You don't understand this?

Once again, your opinion doesn't 'bother' me at all. Why do you feel

it does? My difference of opinion is only in direct opposition to

yours. This is called debate. You shouldn't feel that it is

bothersome to me or you. It really is nothing personal. I love to

debate opinions, especially in a topic that I believe in.

Barry.

>

>

> >>By the way, Sam and Debra are from the same e-mail source. You may

> hear opposition to our flushes eliminating 'real' stones by both. <<

>

> ????????????????? Sorry, I don't have any idea what you mean by

this. And

> again, I have never stated that I don't believe it eliminates

stones, only

> that I have a different opinion about the numbers. My opinion

should not

> bother you.

>

> Debra

>

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:

> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

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