RE: Questions

December 26, 1998

Pupship@... wrote:

>

> I am still going to AA meetings. COuld you suggest a few good questions I

> could ask long time members to get insight into the more cultish angle of the

> program that you folks alledge and despise? Of course I'm not expecting them

> to give me a " straight answer " if it's a " straight question " about something

> actually cultish, if there is indeed a cult element; but perhaps their

> response might be telling somehow anyway?

>

Pupship,

One thing I did toward the end of my stay in AA would be if I was one of

the first to " share, " I'd say something critical of doctrine and watch

those who spoke later kept " just by coincidence " sharing their own

" near-death " experience or that of a dear friend who died who believed

the same heretical idea I'd expressed earlier.

" I've just finished 90 meetings in 90 days and I'm doing fine and don't

need to work the steps. " or need a sponsor, or tell everything on my

fifth step, etc. Their almost always _indirect_ responses are an

unwitting way of getting past the defenses everyone has. If you aren't

directly challenged, it is difficult to directly protect yourself.

Another thing typical in cult groups of all sorts is to attack ones

trust of their ability to think and trust their feelings. In AA, this

is done indirectly by the speaker attacking their own (past,

particularly) thoughts and feelings.

One of the most important thing in any cult indoctrination meeting is

unanimity of opinion. You may hear them argue about how to properly do

the fourth step, get a sponsor or whatever. They _never_ argue, even if

just amongst themselves, the importance of the key aspects of doctrine.

Ken Ragge

------------------------------------------------------------------------

December 26, 1998

Questions

I am still going to AA meetings. COuld you suggest a few good questions I

could ask long time members to get insight into the more cultish angle of the

program that you folks alledge and despise? Of course I'm not expecting them

to give me a " straight answer " if it's a " straight question " about something

actually cultish, if there is indeed a cult element; but perhaps their

response might be telling somehow anyway?Pupship, dear! I am so happy to get ONE message tonight that has something to do with the " 12-step-free " theme of this group. Am I the only one who is really getting fed up with cominghome to find more circumcision messages in my box? I don't deny that it is an important topic, but maybe those of you who want to continue the circumcisiondiscussion can do so privately...Back to your question, however--you could probably find all sorts of leading questions to ask AAs regarding the " cultic nature " of the Program, but franklythe best thing you can do is really listen to what is being said at meetings.Do you often hear members using catchphrases during " shares " or in conversationinstead of using their own words? You know by now what I mean-- " let go and let God " , " take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth " , " first things first " , etc. Do you find yourself hearing your critical faculties/thinking abilities being denigrated? Areyour self-will and rational functioning treated as deadly enemies? Maybe the next time someonemakes a remark about their sick alcoholic brain, or says " my best thinking got me here " ,you could ask them precisely what they mean by that. Do you find pressure is being exerted upon you to believe things you would not normally believe(I am an atheist, unable to believe in god, but was repeatedly told I couldn't enjoy " real " recoverywithout belief in a Higher Power--I was told , " fake it until you make it " , and that eventually I would " come to believe " )? And if so, how are critical questions and objections handled? Does theProgram keep referring back to itself and it's methods as a solution to all of your problems, evenwhen you know you would be better served by outside help (as an example, people suffering from depression are often told they need to work another step or go to meetings or pray more, whenwhat they might actually need is medication and/or an effective therapist) ? I was going to say something brilliant at this point, but it's 12:50 and I'm beat and I have to work tomorrow.I'm going to go crawl into bed with the cats...Just keep your eyes and ears open, and your brain switched on, and see what happens (and tell us about it,if you feel like it).----

December 26, 1998

> Mabee wrote:

>

> Pupship, dear!

>

> I am so happy to get ONE message tonight that has something to do with the

" 12-step-free "

>

> theme of this group. Am I the only one who is really getting fed up with

coming

>

> home to find more circumcision messages in my box? I don't deny that it is

an

>

> important topic, but maybe those of you who want to continue the circumcision

>

> discussion can do so privately...

>

,

Thanks, I needed that. You are absolutely correct.

It is going to be hard, I'll be sitting here at my keyboard sorely

tempted, but I'll have to just not try to have the last word, as hard as

that is for me sometimes. (or most of the time) <G>

If anyone wants to discuss the subject with me I'll be happy to respond

in private e-mail and I can refer anyone really interested in the

subject to other forums. Of course, this is _self_-censure which under

the circumstances I think appropriate. You can all say what you want.

Ken Ragge

------------------------------------------------------------------------

December 27, 1998

At 11:22 PM 12/27/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Getting over the self-defeating set of beliefs is something I could use some

>help with. I'm working on it, but anything you all want to post on how you

>have done that will be read by me.

>

>The biggest belief I resented was the Judeo-Christian " God, " the Bible and

>Jesus being forced on me. I have spiritual beliefs, but I'm not a

>Bible-thumper. I had thought the Twelve Step Programs just required some

>form of " Higher Power, " so I was very surprised at all of this religion!

>Now, from the things I've read here, I see this is very common in 12 Step

>Programs.

>

>Snowy

I just reread your message and I see I may have misunderstood this bit. It

looks to me now as if you are saying the self-defeating beliefs you want to

work on are the ones aquired in 12 step recovery programs. If so, the same

method works well- at least that is what I did- I wrote down the stuff I

had gotten from NA and AA, every single 12 step belief I could come up

with, including all the unwritten unofficial ones that wouldn't look too

good in print! And then I wrote down next to them a refutation and then

what I thought was actually true. What I found was that when I sat down and

looked at it, I didn't really believe one single thing that I had got in 12

step programs. It was all bunk! Some of the beliefs had a grain of truth in

them (like permanent abstinence is a good idea for certain people), but a

grain is a very small quantity.

Example 1;

Belief; Addiction is a spiritual disease, I need to stay committed to the

program or the disease could take me over.

Refutation;

Total medieval nonsense! Addiction has never been shown to be a disease;

psychology shows that alcohol or drug dependence is a behaviour, and one

that responds to cognitive-behavioral methods (among others!). If the

" program " is not based in truth, how can it possibly help me?

What I really believe to be true; (restates the essential contents of that

belief with true statements);

Addiction is a misleading name for a pattern of behaviour. Behaviour can be

changed. My changing my own behaviour is going to be easier and simpler if

I use a modern understanding rather than an approach that hasn't been

updated since the 30's. Anyone can change their behaviour if they decide to

do so.

Example 2;

Belief;

If I'm not doing it the AA (NA, OA, whatever) way then I'm in self-will and

heading for relapse.

Refutation;

Rubbish, incredible rubbish. Self-will is not a valid or useful concept.

What I really believe to be true;

The will is an integral and essential part of the psyche. To demonise it

and try to neutralise it is very, very unhealthy. If I'm not doing it the

AA (NA, OA, whatever) way then I can use my Self, my own desire for a

better life, my own innate mental health, my own best thinking, to run my

own life 100 times better than I could ever do following " suggestions " from

people who have surrendered their ability to think for themselves.

And so on. You can do this with every single thing you got from the 12 step

philosophy. The truth WILL set you free!

My main point I suppose is that getting this stuff down on paper, along

with what you want to replace it with, can be very useful.

Joe Berenbaum

------------------------------------------------------------------------

December 29, 1998

Hi Ben

Thanks for this illuminating post.

Catchphrases and two and three word " jingles " like " principles not

Personalities " are a feature of rhetoric generally I think - but of course they

come out much stronger in a religious setting. Image Consultants an dSpin

Doctors who write speeches for politicians know this and pepper the speeeches

with them.

Pete

On Sat, 26 Dec 1998 12:11:39 -0500 Ben Bradley

wrote:

> At 12:44 AM 12/26/98 -0800, Ken R wrote:

> >Pupship@... wrote:

> >>

> >> I am still going to AA meetings. COuld you suggest a few good questions I

> >> could ask long time members to get insight into the more cultish angle

> of the

> >> program that you folks alledge and despise? Of course I'm not expecting

> them

> >> to give me a " straight answer " if it's a " straight question " about

> something

>

> Just not expecting a 'straight answer' seems to be raising your suspicions.

>

> >> actually cultish, if there is indeed a cult element; but perhaps their

> >> response might be telling somehow anyway?

>

> I think all you'll ever get them to say is what they believe, and it

> looks like you already know what they believe anyway. You seem to be asking,

> how would you know if their statements and actions are cult-like?

> Maybe you could go to a web search engine and type 'cult', and see what AA

> might have in common with descriptions of other groups people think of as

> cults. That's what I did a couple of years ago.

>

> >Pupship,

> >

> >One thing I did toward the end of my stay in AA would be if I was one of

> >the first to " share, " I'd say something critical of doctrine and watch

> >those who spoke later kept " just by coincidence " sharing their own

> > " near-death " experience or that of a dear friend who died who believed

> >the same heretical idea I'd expressed earlier.

> >

> > " I've just finished 90 meetings in 90 days and I'm doing fine and don't

> >need to work the steps. " or need a sponsor, or tell everything on my

> >fifth step, etc. Their almost always _indirect_ responses are an

> >unwitting way of getting past the defenses everyone has. If you aren't

> >directly challenged, it is difficult to directly protect yourself.

>

> This is an excellent point, and it happens with almost ANYTHING that

> isn't in line with the program, steps, and 'appropriate' running of the

> meetings. At about three months in AA I was at a beginner's/newcomer's

> meeting, and one guy who was almost brand new talked for about 15 minutes

> (this was a meeting with 8 to 12 people, and the idea was to give time for

> everyone to talk, and at least get the newcomers' first names). While he

> was talking my sponsor (a couple of years sober) raised his hand discretely

> at the discussion leader, so that he would be the next to be called on.

> After this guy ran out of steam, the discussion leader called on my sponsor,

> who then said:

> " My name's Phil and I'm a grateful alcoholic. When I was new to the

> program, I was told to sit dnw, shut up, and listen. I didn't know a damn

> thing about staying sober, so I had to listen to those who did, who had

> experience staying sober. " He went on like that for about five minutes.

> In those newcomers meetings I often heard things like that, designed

> to shut up newcomers, often indirectly as above, sometimes more directly

> (perhaps aimed at newcomers who can't or won't take a hint): " Take the

> cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth. " " God gave us two ears

> and one mouth for a reason. He intended us to listen more than we talk. "

> That last one is a tactic of magical thinking/redefinitons/puns that

> I've often seen in mainstream religion as well as in *A. The true reasons

> for two ears and one mouth have nothing to with how much one should talk

> vs. listen. An example of puns (connecting together two meanings of a word

> that aren't related): " Today is a gift. That's why it's called the present. "

>

> On the slogans (sort of off topic), there seem to be a lot of three-word

> and three-phrase cliches in AA - there's a rhythm to it or something. " Sit

> down, shut up, and listen " . " Happy, Joyous, and Free. " " Stupid, Boring, and

> Glum. " It seems to have started with (or before) Bill - the last two

> are in the Big Book. " Experience, Strength, and Hope, " from the AA Preamble.

>

> >Another thing typical in cult groups of all sorts is to attack ones

> >trust of their ability to think and trust their feelings. In AA, this

> >is done indirectly by the speaker attacking their own (past,

> >particularly) thoughts and feelings.

>

> " My best thinking got me here " , usually said in response to someone

> showing signs of independent thought.

>

> >One of the most important thing in any cult indoctrination meeting is

> >unanimity of opinion. You may hear them argue about how to properly do

> >the fourth step, get a sponsor or whatever. They _never_ argue, even if

>

> The question isn't " should I do a fifth step " , but maybe " when should I "

> but that one is clearly " just after you've done your fourth. Have you

> started on your fourth step yet? " . Or, " who should I do my fifth step with? "

>

> >just amongst themselves, the importance of the key aspects of doctrine.

>

> Having heard and seen people tear me up in AA (indirectly, as described

> above) for expressing my own thoughts and feelings rather than those of

> the group, I decided to see, if I repeated some of the most outlandish and

> fundamentalist dogma I'd heard, would I get any dissenting response to what

> I said?

> " I'm only alive by the Grace of God. I have to remember to be grateful

> for God for letting me live through all the things I did. If I got what I

> deserved I'd be dead. "

> Even in my first two years in AA, going to meetings every day and

> somehow magically believing just like those around me that " everything I

> need is in the first 164 pages of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous " ,

> but I never really believed the statement " if I got what I deserved... " .

> When I said it in a few meetings in my last couple of years of going to

> meetings I never heard a dissenting word, and perhaps one or two people

> said " I like what Ben said. "

> There were some people who were truly annoyed at my " sharing " , because

> they knew what I really believed, and that when I was repeating dogma in

> meetings that I didn't believe it and I (often) was just being sarcastic.

> But they never said anything about it.

>

> -----

> http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley/seasons_greetings.html

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> More trinkets than the 1996 Olympics. Fewer lines than the Goodwill Games

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>

February 16, 2000

THIS ONE FRIGHTENS ME

I ASKED MY DOCTOR ABOUT TIME WISE AND HE SAID THE LONGER I WAIT THE BETTER

THE CHANCE OF MY UTERUS OPENING ON IT'S OWN. (OF COURSE HE ADMITS TO THE

ERROR CAUSING THE ASHERMANS). I DON'T KNOW ANYMORE - I LOOK AT ALL OF THESE

STORIES AND THE INFORMATION ON THE COST OF THE TREATMENT. I AM A SINGLE

PARENT WITH TWO CHILDREN AND TWO JOBS. I BARELY MAKE ENDS MEET - HOW CAN I

DO THIS? I ALSO USED UP ALL OF MY LEAVE WHEN THEY RUPTURED MY UTERUS DURING

THE D & C SO I CAN'T EVEN TAKE OFF UNTIL JULY.

I GUESS I AM JUST GETTING NERVOUS ABOUT THE TEST TOMORROW. DON AND I ARE

LIVING TOGETHER AFTER 4 YEARS OF DATING. WE JUST HAD A CHILD TOGETHER BUT MY

FINANCES ARE STILL MY OWN. WE BOTH SCRAPE TO GET BY - WHAT IF I SIMPLY CAN'T

AFFORD TREATMENT? IS ASHERMAN'S LIFE THREATENING WITHOUT TREATMENT? SO MANY

QUESTIONS - MY DOCTOR IS GOING TO HAVE A LONG DAY TOMORROW

THANKS FOR THE INFO ON THE TIME FRAME THOUGH

TALK SOON!!!

KATE

> Re: questions

>

> From: KMorri1966@...

>

> Suzanne,

> I also did not have any pain associated with the Asherman's syndrome. I

> did

> have a severe case but have heard of other women with Asherman's syndrome

> without any pain. I do not think that lack of pain is indicative of a

> severe

> case. I think that the severity can only be ascertained by an HSG and

> hysteroscopy.

>

> My doc is a firm believer of treating the scarring eariler and not later.

> I had my first surgery approximately 9 months after the D & C.

> Hope this helps.

> Ann

>

> ---------------------------

April 28, 2002

Lori,

I am sorry you are having so many problems. I can't answer your questions as I

didn't have reconstruction but you are in my prayers and you can keep my angel

as long as you need her.

Hugs

nne

questions

It's been 11 days since my breast reconstruction (latissmus dorsi

flap). I still have one drain on the right side that stays constant

with the drainage. The right side is also very swollen. The left

side is starting to feel much better although the swelling still

exists. Here's my question - am I being too impatient? How long

does the swelling last and the drain tubes? I just don't feel like

myself and the pain continues (although not as intense as the first

week). Was this all worth it? Do others who have reconstruction

feel the same way after surgery - did I make a mistake? Sorry about

the complaining - I don't even feel like I have the right to be

hurting since I choose this surgery, so I feel like it's my fault.

Any answers or words of encouragement would be appreciated - very

depressed and discouraged here.

Hugs,

Lori

April 28, 2002

Hi Lori,

My name is and I'm new to

the group. This is my first time posting.

I don't know how much help I can be but

I had breast reconstruction (Tram-flap)

on my right beast

back in August of 2001. I remember

those nasty drainage tubes...I had 3

tubes and they stayed in for 2 1/2 weeks

after I left the hospital. I had more

swelling than normal as well but my

doctor assured me that it would

subside and it did in a couple of weeks.

You're not complaining AT ALL!...believe

me. Your body is going through a huge

change right now. Take it easy on yourself.

For me...it was well worth it. In fact I just

had surgery on Monday where the doctor

constructed a new nipple from the skin on

my new breast.

So hang in there. I had a wonderful lady

from the hospital

who was a breast cancer counselor that

called and checked on me a couple times a

week for the first month. That helped me

a ton.

I hope your feeling better and if I can be

of any help, please let me know. : )

Take care,

/39/Layton, UT