Guest guest Posted November 17, 1998 Report Share Posted November 17, 1998 Its a basic social psychological principle known as social proof. The idea being that the more people that believe in something the more true it must be. It's a sort of built in heuristic ppl use in our cognitively taxed society. A sort of safety in numbers herd mentality. lhl@... wrote: > What is the motivation for steppers, or JW's, or Mormans, or whomever to > recruit. > I can understand in many situations that the motive is money, and sometimes > there's > some ego at the top that needs massaging. But 12 step groups and some > mainstream religions > dont seem to have that. Is it just that people are so insecure that they > need to force others to believe the same as themselves because there afraid > they may be wrong? Anyway there seem to be several avenues here, so what > are your thoughts? I know many people in XA's > and the treatment community that seem to be the most miserable, hostile, > control freaks > I've ever met and in a phycological sence they really are sick but I dont > think it has anything to do with drugs/alcohol. > Thanks, > Larry > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1998 Report Share Posted November 17, 1998 In a message dated 11/17/98 6:17:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, lhl@... writes: > What is the motivation for steppers, or JW's, or Mormons, or whomever to > recruit. I think it is to improve their own standing, whether in this life or the " hereafter, " by bringing in the most converts. Like the biggest, baddest Indian warrior with the most scalps. Henders ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1998 Report Share Posted November 17, 1998 In a message dated 11/17/1998 11:16:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, fransway29@... writes: > When I was in 12-step groups, I sponsored others, > went to detoxes and hospitals to tell others about > AA, and took homeless drunks to dry-outs and even > had people detoxing in my home. > > At the time, here is why I did it, that is, what > I was conscious of while indoctrinating others. > > 1. I really did believe people were better off > sober, because I was. > > 2. I believed I had to fulfill step 12 to stay > sober myself. > > 3. People who help alot of alcoholics are more > popular in the group, and approval from the > group has alot to do with staying sober in AA > (that's why you don't see folks who can't get > the hang of public speaking stick around > long. " I think that the reasons I did the things you mention when I was involved in Na were similar.... I was convinced by the time I left the detox that 12 step recovery was absolutely necessary, and I was doomed to failure without it. Believing that as strongly as I did led me to present the same solution to others. I felt like I had totally fucked up my life and I was afraid to trust my own judgement on anything. I was of that mind when I was directed into a treatment facility as a result of being referred to an EAP. The treatment facility I was in certainly cashed in on my lack of confidence. When I did object to something, they made sure to let me know that I did not know shit.....They would also do things like set up a room with a table covered with works, what appeared to be dope and other drugs, along with all sorts of the usual paraphenalia. We were paraded around the table and had to sit there around it while counselors put these items in our faces to, I presume, make sure we realized just how powerless we were. It was so effective that *no* one walked away, and we could have. It was not a locked unit. They could not have legally stopped most of us. However, we were at a point where our confidence was so non-existent that we stayed and came to believe that we truly were powerless. I look back on this and think that no one in their right mind would direct anyone to admit themselves to such a place, yet I did recommend the facility to others and told them how much I had been helped. I had been effectively indoctrinated. I did H & I presentations at that same facility showing those patients there then, that I was successful as a result of 12 step recovery. I dutifully went to NA for years. Did service work and the whole nine yards. As I have so often said, I think it was downhill for me from the time I had my mind back enough to realize and declare my Atheism, though I continued on the 12 step path for a good time longer. Isn't it funny, that the last person I spent time convincing that she needed NA and 12 step recovery(and you know who this is), in turn helped me realize I didn't? We have had some good laughs about this since. I may have seen the writing on the wall and knew it down deep at that time....but I just hadn't known how to separate myself. > > Now that I'm away from AA and have dedicated my > life to helping me and my own family, where dedication belongs, I can see > that alot of the > 12-step crap I did helped me avoid other work > in life, work that is more valuable but less of > an immediate ego-pump. The 12 step thing became my life for a long time. It is hard to see beyond it when all you associate with are people in 12 step recovery.There was a period of time that I barely associated with my family. The hours I spent at work were the only hours other than sleeping I spent away from addicts in the program. It took going to school along with working to give me the distance I needed to begin to really get a more accurate view --to see just how narrow my vision of the world was. It was as limited as it had ever been when I was immersed in using. > Of course, I still have little ways to avoid stuff. Like posting to Usenet. > But you can't > stop all the fun. Movies and books are good, too. You know I do this.....I figure it is OK as long as I maintain my GPA, and I have thus far. Take Care, Bette > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1998 Report Share Posted November 17, 1998 What is the motivation for steppers, or JW's, or Mormans, or whomever to > recruit. > I can understand in many situations that the motive is money, and sometimes > there's > some ego at the top that needs massaging. But 12 step groups and some > mainstream religions > dont seem to have that. Is it just that people are so insecure that they > need to force others to believe the same as themselves because there afraid > they may be wrong? Anyway there seem to be several avenues here, so what > are your thoughts? I know many people in XA's > and the treatment community that seem to be the most miserable, hostile, > control freaks > I've ever met and in a phycological sence they really are sick but I dont > think it has anything to do with drugs/alcohol. When I was in 12-step groups, I sponsored others, went to detoxes and hospitals to tell others about AA, and took homeless drunks to dry-outs and even had people detoxing in my home. At the time, here is why I did it, that is, what I was conscious of while indoctrinating others. 1. I really did believe people were better off sober, because I was. 2. I believed I had to fulfill step 12 to stay sober myself. 3. People who help alot of alcoholics are more popular in the group, and approval from the group has alot to do with staying sober in AA (that's why you don't see folks who can't get the hang of public speaking stick around long. " Now that I'm away from AA and have dedicated my life to helping me and my own family, where dedication belongs, I can see that alot of the 12-step crap I did helped me avoid other work in life, work that is more valuable but less of an immediate ego-pump. Of course, I still have little ways to avoid stuff. Like posting to Usenet. But you can't stop all the fun. Movies and books are good, too. > > > ----- See the original message at /list/12-step-free/?start=718 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1998 Report Share Posted November 18, 1998 Jim & wrote: > > Its a basic social psychological principle known as social proof. The idea > being that the more people that believe in something the more true it must be. > It's a sort of built in heuristic ppl use in our cognitively taxed society. A > sort of safety in numbers herd mentality. > Jim, Excellent point and it seems that knowledge of the principle has been around at least since 1918. Oxford Group's conversion manual, " Soul Surgery, " makes clear that the need for the fifth " C, " " Continuance, " " working with others " or " carrying the message " is " to keep the conversion experience real. " Another big factor, probably especially true for those like myself who have been in " treatment, " is that the environment is established in such a way that one very soon begins carrying the message. Even in a treatment center where no one is there longer than the insurance benefits last (28 days or at most 35), there is a not-so-subtle shift in role from the " clueless " newbie to the " oldtimer. " It is natural for one to shift into the opinion and behavior of a role modeled for when you've been placed in it. Adapting the role of " been around longer and are wiser " (which includes sincere confession and humility) is an ego boost, a way out for the crushing blows of powerlessness, unmanageablity and insanity. Since those who have more Time are seen fulfilling their roles as older authority with a sincere desire to help, it is an easy role to slip into. Somehow, in the treatment center environment, telling a new person, " The showers are the third door on the left and there is a water cooler near the front entrance " is not much different from telling them, " You can pick any higher power you wish. " I think you are dead right on the above and that explains a lot of the outrage at criticism of the program. The other responses also give parts. It seems to me direct socialization is another -- " It's just what we do. " Ken Ragge > lhl@... wrote: > > > What is the motivation for steppers, or JW's, or Mormans, or whomever to > > recruit. > > I can understand in many situations that the motive is money, and sometimes > > there's > > some ego at the top that needs massaging. But 12 step groups and some > > mainstream religions > > dont seem to have that. Is it just that people are so insecure that they > > need to force others to believe the same as themselves because there afraid > > they may be wrong? Anyway there seem to be several avenues here, so what > > are your thoughts? I know many people in XA's > > and the treatment community that seem to be the most miserable, hostile, > > control freaks > > I've ever met and in a phycological sence they really are sick but I dont > > think it has anything to do with drugs/alcohol. > > Thanks, > > Larry > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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