(No subject)

[Guest guest]

somewhat rambling and ranting post.

I don't need to have someone who has engaged in BS do it all over again before I

tell them, No, you're not invited to my party.

Possibly if they say, well, i'm sorry, then I'll reconsider. That was not the

case.

Furthermore, this list does not have the primary function of entertaining 12

step people. It is a place for freedom from 12 steps.

What amazes me is the amount of apology that goes on for these people and for

the sick and damaging program itself. The Program is repressive and spreads

incorrect ideas and flawed methods of living, flawed child rearing techniques,

and fundamentally inappropriate interpretations and methods for handling human

to human relationships of all kinds.

Sure, some people are relatively unscathed by 12 step participation. Some are

happily, blissfully happy in AA. But I've been around and I know that's

exceptional. And the happy ones are not some kind of offset against the Lies or

damage done in their name. For example, some children in sexually abusive

families are left alone, some have pleasant, supportive experiences. But later

on, when Sally tells Anne, " you know, Dad was fucking me in that basement for 5

years, "

is it reasonable for Anne to say, " I don't know why you are so Angry, " or " Dad

was always real nice to ME; I liked our family, so I still go to Thanksgiving

and buy presents for Dad -- you know, he means well... " or " Those resentments

of yours against Dad will make you start drinking again Sally, you're an

alcoholic, you know, your problems are really of your own making, it's the -ism,

you're never satisfied, always trying to be the big shot, you've got stinkin'

thinkin' Sally... "

The Father may even do real charity work, may be a deacon at the local church,

may loan money to people in need, may pamper his grandchildren. None of that

stops the truth from being horrible. That's not a paradox; it called a Lie.

Do we say, " Sally, do you mind if Dad attends your support group, " do we say,

" well, let's hear Dad's side of the story, maybe he'll finally see the light, "

or " Sally you need to do a forth step on this one, Sally you need to see YOUR

part in this and make amends to Dad. "

If we do, then we're sick. If you tell Sally that kind of crap, which actually

goes on in 12 step groups, then you're sick and it's damaging to Sally. That's

the reality of AA to me.

Also, I'm tired of idiot language being used without question: for example,

flawed concepts like resentments. It's a made-up, loaded 12 step concept. I do

have resentments, and they are healthy reactions. I get over them by taking

action and moving on. Now, I could become mired in them by going back to the

source and that means to me, going back to 12 step craziness. That's what this

list is for, " Hey you, 12 step crazy-person, look but don't touch, this not a

free-for-all, we've got your number buddy, we know what you are up to, we know

your real agenda, you are programma non grata. "

AA is based on the lie of the disease model and insists that 12 steps is the

Only way, and insists that no one EVER recovers from problem use, no one

moderates, and so forth. Research that has been readily available for many

years shows AA's poor success rate and shows that many people DO return to

moderate drinking all the time, that many quit drinking without meetings and

without AA, but AA Lies to people, and Drug Counselors Lie or promote lies (some

like our guy even concede to alternatives but hide the truth from their patients

[read: victims] and continue to recommend programs which Lie, frequently fail,

and often cause psychological damage to the individual and collateral damage to

his/her family.

Mr. Drug Counselor, how can you sit through the readings at the beginning of

every 12step meeting, knowing, as you do, that what is being ritually chanted is

patent un-truth. Knowing, as you must, that vulnerable people are being

misguided. You are the Dr. Zaius to whom I referred in an earlier email. You

say something like, " I would be remiss if i didn't research the whole world of

substance abuse issues and see what everyone's up to... " I say you are remiss

for taking part in an abusive, dishonest, damaging, backward religious system.

AA says, " You've got a disease. " Now, the last time we treated medical problems

with RELIGION and SUPERNATURAL powers was in medieval days.

Or wait, It's a Spiritual Disease. Folks, that's silly talk. If we are

considering spiritual stuff, be up front about it, then we can look clearly at

AA and see what it is, a loosely knit group of congregations that practice a

form of evangelical guilt-based religion and deception. A group of people

fixated on a substance (or behavior, even eating) as being endowed with magical

properties which totally erode the will power and conscious direction of an

individual, a system with a recommended path to salvation which consists of

allowing a Leader and Elder to become a surrogate parent, confession, frequent

attendance at Religious services and witnessing, and paranoid avoidance of the

magical substances.

This group shuns the light of science when turned inwardly upon itself, but

borrows indiscriminately from formal techniques of thought control and liberally

indulges in the practice of amateur psychotherapy. In other words, a bunch of

stunted people and a lot of loose cannons.

Those who are lucky enough to escape this cult and fortunate enough to solve

their substance and personal problems in spite of the crippling abuses of

Steppism are allowed the luxury of being spared continued harassment from the

Steppist devotees, apologists and fundamentalists.

-GP

----------

From: Betche2@...[sMTP:Betche2@...]

Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 11:07 AM

To: 12-step-free@...

Subject: (no subject)

In a message dated 11/11/1998 12:50:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,

awatt04@... writes:

> My only concern abt your

> post is that no-one is suggesting keeping XA's out who are thinking abt

> breaking free - it's those who only have an agenda of destroying what we

> are trying to do here that we need to worry abt.

>

> Pete

And just how do you propose to differentiate? Is there some sort of official

form that prospective participants in this forum should be required to fill

out?

Perhaps if some steppers that are not actively attacking members in this

forum, read what some of the participants here have to say they may develop

some empathy. This in the long run may prove useful. I know that there are

people here who have had horrendous experiences. My indoctrination into 12

step recovery was no friggin' picnic, which some of you know from reading what

little I have written on my treatment experience on arf12s.

I was deeply involved in NA for just over 10 years; I regret some of the

things that I turned around and did to others that I learned as a result of

indoctrination and having been treated this way myself. I have been away from

NA for well over a year now. I don't agree that the 12 steps are the only way

to recovery. Personally, I agree with very little that the steps have to

offer, even though I was once a proponent. My breaking away from NA has taken

a period of years to occur with a lot of self-doubt and ocassional returns to

thinking " if only I went to more meetings, " if only I worked the steps

better, " etc. I began to find that I was not the only one to have ever

experienced this last year on the alt. hierarchy of Usenet. I struggle with

some of the bullshit that goes on there, and sometimes I can't tell one side

from the other, the name calling gets so pronounced. Still, I believe that

there are people who are " steppers " who are not such flaming assholes. IMO, to

paint all steppers as zealots that are out to get those who speak out against

12 step dogma is just as dogmatic as what we condemn.

The way you talk, if I had come to this list in the confusion I felt last

year, I would not have been welcome. My first contact with Ken was a sort of a

flame--no, I am downplaying what I felt at the time. It really was a flame,

wasn't it, Ken? It wasn't that I disagreed with what he presented at that

time. Actually, I was very much in agreement. It was his presentation that

offended me at that time. He challenged stuff that my whole life was wrapped

up in. It was stuff that needed challenging, and I needed to hear. It helped

me a great deal, but dogma doesn't die easy. I do my own thinking about

recovery and what I think about it now. I can't say that is the case from the

onset of my recovery. I don't think that everyone in NA/AA is as entrenched in

the dogma as I was....I was a service junkie and the whole nine yards--hard

core NA as some might say. Being a recovering addict in NA had become my whole

identity and I was slowly getting real fucked up from not being able to

reconcile my personal beliefs that were emerging with the dogma of the program

that surrounded me and had become my life. I am glad that I was able to get

the information and support I needed in making a difficult transition before

you all became so exclusive that I, too, would have been excluded.

I think it is wrong to exclude someone from this list before they have done

anything _on the list_ to merit it. I am really angry that this has happened

regardless of what a jerk that person has been elsewhere. It pisses me off

when I hear someone like Gold say that his delurking has been met with

antagonistic email from members here. With this in mind I figure that it might

be a good idea if I just unsub before I say something hurtful to people here.

It is not my intention to hurt people with what I have thus far, so rather

than go on about this shit which I think is nothing more than making mountains

out of molehills it is probably best that I leave.

Take Care....and try to keep those open minds(sarcasm intended)

Bette

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Get Your Free Daily Horoscope on Excite Personalized Front Page - Visit:

http://Excite.Unique-Offer.com/c/000096001000000101

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/12/1998 7:58:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,

kat@... writes:

> I can understand Bette and Kim's point of view but they are obviously

> much stronger than me. I have already been run off the arf12 NG and

> would be pretty worried about posting here in case I get the same

> treatment. There aren't many safe places at the moment for people to get

> support while de-programming and I for one would hate to see this list

> degenerate to the level of arf12.

>

> Just my 0.02 peneth worth

>

>

Hi ,

How are you doing? Good to hear from you.

I really don't think that I am any stronger than anyone....hell I stayed in 12

step recovery for over 10 years before I gained the nerve to get out. It had

gotten to the point that I was so confused and sitting on the edge of

" relapse " trying to believe in the concept of God that I had realized I didn't

believe in at 3 years into recovery. There are a lot of you that had the

courage to make radical changes and not buy into the indoctrination long

before I did. I would like to believe this is because of the tactics used in

the treatment facility that I was in. I think you were on arf12s when I

described some of the shit that went on there that can only be described as

brainwashing. It took a long time and some distance from 12 step meetings for

me to have the courage of my own mind on the subject of recovery.

I really want to say more about that process of leaving NA...the events

leading up to it and all, but right now I don't have time because I have to

get ready to leave for school soon.

Anyway...let me assure you, , that I don't want to see what happened on

the NG happen here any more than you do. Furthermore, I don't see how it can.

Anyone who starts pulling that type of shit can be kicked from the lists

immediately. I just don't see kicking someone before they have shown that the

intend to be disruptive as fair treatment. People do change.....Realistically,

I don't have high hopes for some....but I don't believe on acting on that

prejudice that I have before the fact.

Bette

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In message , A. Price

writes

>I don't need to have someone who has engaged in BS do it all over again before

I

>tell them, No, you're not invited to my party.

>

>Possibly if they say, well, i'm sorry, then I'll reconsider. That was not the

>case.

>

>Furthermore, this list does not have the primary function of entertaining 12

>step people. It is a place for freedom from 12 steps.

>

>What amazes me is the amount of apology that goes on for these people and for

>the sick and damaging program itself. The Program is repressive and spreads

>incorrect ideas and flawed methods of living, flawed child rearing techniques,

>and fundamentally inappropriate interpretations and methods for handling human

>to human relationships of all kinds.

>

>Sure, some people are relatively unscathed by 12 step participation. Some are

>happily, blissfully happy in AA. But I've been around and I know that's

>exceptional. And the happy ones are not some kind of offset against the Lies

or

>damage done in their name. For example, some children in sexually abusive

>families are left alone, some have pleasant, supportive experiences. But later

>on, when Sally tells Anne, " you know, Dad was fucking me in that basement for 5

>years, "

>

>is it reasonable for Anne to say, " I don't know why you are so Angry, " or " Dad

>was always real nice to ME; I liked our family, so I still go to Thanksgiving

>and buy presents for Dad -- you know, he means well... " or " Those resentments

>of yours against Dad will make you start drinking again Sally, you're an

>alcoholic, you know, your problems are really of your own making, it's the

-ism,

>you're never satisfied, always trying to be the big shot, you've got stinkin'

>thinkin' Sally... "

>

>The Father may even do real charity work, may be a deacon at the local church,

>may loan money to people in need, may pamper his grandchildren. None of that

>stops the truth from being horrible. That's not a paradox; it called a Lie.

>Do we say, " Sally, do you mind if Dad attends your support group, " do we say,

> " well, let's hear Dad's side of the story, maybe he'll finally see the light, "

>or " Sally you need to do a forth step on this one, Sally you need to see YOUR

>part in this and make amends to Dad. "

>

>If we do, then we're sick. If you tell Sally that kind of crap, which actually

>goes on in 12 step groups, then you're sick and it's damaging to Sally. That's

>the reality of AA to me.

>

>Also, I'm tired of idiot language being used without question: for example,

>flawed concepts like resentments. It's a made-up, loaded 12 step concept. I

do

>have resentments, and they are healthy reactions. I get over them by taking

>action and moving on. Now, I could become mired in them by going back to the

>source and that means to me, going back to 12 step craziness. That's what this

>list is for, " Hey you, 12 step crazy-person, look but don't touch, this not a

>free-for-all, we've got your number buddy, we know what you are up to, we know

>your real agenda, you are programma non grata. "

>

>AA is based on the lie of the disease model and insists that 12 steps is the

>Only way, and insists that no one EVER recovers from problem use, no one

>moderates, and so forth. Research that has been readily available for many

>years shows AA's poor success rate and shows that many people DO return to

>moderate drinking all the time, that many quit drinking without meetings and

>without AA, but AA Lies to people, and Drug Counselors Lie or promote lies

(some

>like our guy even concede to alternatives but hide the truth from their

patients

>[read: victims] and continue to recommend programs which Lie, frequently fail,

>and often cause psychological damage to the individual and collateral damage to

>his/her family.

>

>Mr. Drug Counselor, how can you sit through the readings at the beginning of

>every 12step meeting, knowing, as you do, that what is being ritually chanted

is

>patent un-truth. Knowing, as you must, that vulnerable people are being

>misguided. You are the Dr. Zaius to whom I referred in an earlier email. You

>say something like, " I would be remiss if i didn't research the whole world of

>substance abuse issues and see what everyone's up to... " I say you are remiss

>for taking part in an abusive, dishonest, damaging, backward religious system.

>AA says, " You've got a disease. " Now, the last time we treated medical

problems

>with RELIGION and SUPERNATURAL powers was in medieval days.

>

>Or wait, It's a Spiritual Disease. Folks, that's silly talk. If we are

>considering spiritual stuff, be up front about it, then we can look clearly at

>AA and see what it is, a loosely knit group of congregations that practice a

>form of evangelical guilt-based religion and deception. A group of people

>fixated on a substance (or behavior, even eating) as being endowed with magical

>properties which totally erode the will power and conscious direction of an

>individual, a system with a recommended path to salvation which consists of

>allowing a Leader and Elder to become a surrogate parent, confession, frequent

>attendance at Religious services and witnessing, and paranoid avoidance of the

>magical substances.

>

>This group shuns the light of science when turned inwardly upon itself, but

>borrows indiscriminately from formal techniques of thought control and

liberally

>indulges in the practice of amateur psychotherapy. In other words, a bunch of

>stunted people and a lot of loose cannons.

>

>Those who are lucky enough to escape this cult and fortunate enough to solve

>their substance and personal problems in spite of the crippling abuses of

>Steppism are allowed the luxury of being spared continued harassment from the

>Steppist devotees, apologists and fundamentalists.

>-GP

I couldn't snip this it was just so good. I haven't been active

in this list for some time now although I continue to read it. I was

attacked by the Cabal on arf12 some time ago when I was particularly

vunerable and feel that I can no longer partake in the mud slinging,

abusive posts that are thrown at the innocent posters. I was pretty

shocked when I saw Glenn was here as he was one of the first people to

jump on me along with the 'Witch' and Dam.

I can understand Bette and Kim's point of view but they are obviously

much stronger than me. I have already been run off the arf12 NG and

would be pretty worried about posting here in case I get the same

treatment. There aren't many safe places at the moment for people to get

support while de-programming and I for one would hate to see this list

degenerate to the level of arf12.

Just my 0.02 peneth worth

--

M

Bristol

England ICQ#7099782

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In message , Betche2@... writes

>I have not been plagued much by the local steppers around here. I think they

>may have viewed my presence in meetings as ominious towards the end of my

>attending. My voice was strong and I spewed out a lot of my feelings about it

>all--a picture of Blair in _The Exorcist_ come to mind.<G> After doing

>this at the last meeting I attended, I think I scared the shit out of them

>all. No one would approach me....there were no " keep coming backs " said to me

>that time--no nods of heads in identification with the words I spoke.

>Hahaha...after all how could someone considered to be an " old timer " in NA in

>this neck of the woods say what I said? I wasn't trying to be cruel or burst

>anyone's bubble. I really didn't even know what was going on with me at the

>time. It wasn't until several months later that I even made a declaration to

>myself that I was no longer a member of NA.

Hi Bette, I have been pretty lucky, the few friends that I have in aa

have given me the space I needed to let go. Or maybe I'm just kidding

myself and they don't give a damn <G> No the really good friends have

remaind so and we seldom speak of the program at all. My sponser and I

have a wonderful close friendship which is now relieved of the weight of

expectations of the sponser/sponsee relationship!

I only recently went back to my homegroup to resign as literature

secretary. It wasn't as I thought it would be! I so desperately wanted

to walk in there and tell them what I think of their program but I

recieved such a warm welcome from the old timers in the group and it was

a pretty good share to boot. I found myself looking around the room and

knew that I had no right to have a go at their program because this was

only my opinion. If someone had asked me outright where I had been I

would have told them that *I* no longer need AA but I knew that there

were people there whose whole life was built around the program and I

couldn't justify bad mouthing something that was all they had. Does any

of that make sense to anyone. I had wanted to stride in there and say

'look at me, I've left and I'm still alive, not institionalised dead or

insane ( yeah, I know that's just a matter of opinion<G>) but I knew

that for some of the lonely members there this was all they had. It was

very much like when I started have memories come flooding back about my

childhood abuse. I felt as if my whole life had been built on quick sand

and wasn't the way I thought it was, it was all lies. I couldn't be

responsible for making anyone feel the same way about AA. I am so lucky

to have wonderful support at home and amongst my friends but not all

folks are as lucky as me. I quietly listened to the share, put my money

in the pot and hugged the people that I am fond of. I may well go back

from time to time if only to catch up on folks but also to remind me how

lucky I've been to be able to walk away and survive before any serious

damage might have been done. I don't feel like a traitor, it is just the

way it is and I can except that and move on.

I am just going to quietly get on with my life, sober and happy. I don't

need to shout about the harm that some people suffer, for some it is the

only way and I am glad that it is there for them. It gave me a start on

kicking the habit and I am grateful for that, but *not that* grateful

<G>

Take care everyone

--

M

Bristol

England ICQ#7099782

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hello everyone,

The following URL is the address of an addict-l post this morning from a

twelve step psychiatrist praising the virtues of coerced " treatment. "

Thought some of you might find it interesting.

http://listserv.kent.edu/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9811c & L=addict-l & F= & S= & P=5093

Ken Ragge

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Re: (no subject)

>Hello everyone,

>

>The following URL is the address of an addict-l post this morning from a

>twelve step psychiatrist praising the virtues of coerced " treatment. "

>Thought some of you might find it interesting.

>

>http://listserv.kent.edu/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9811c & L=addict-l & F= & S= & P=5093

>

>Ken Ragge

One thing that is interesting about the post is that the fellow justifies

coercion based on the idea that the most severely afflicted are unlikely to

volunteer for treatment. Then it turns out in the studies he cites that the

volunteers have more serious problems than those trapped by the coercive

programs.

In fact, this outcome conflicts, to some degree, with the standard picture

of " denial " , which is supposed to be progressive just like all other aspects

of the " disease of addiction. " Maybe that is why the poster didn't notice

that his " supporting evidence " contradicted his premise.

-- Wally T.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

What an appalling post! My schedule does not permit this afternoon, but I

intend to comment at length when I have time.

Just for starters -- if 7% of each group met the criteria for " success " (which

were?), they both did equally well. But was the treatment method a success?

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Hello everyone,

>

>The following URL is the address of an addict-l post this morning from a

>twelve step psychiatrist praising the virtues of coerced " treatment. "

>Thought some of you might find it interesting.

>

>http://listserv.kent.edu/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9811c & L=addict-l & F= & S= & P=5093

>

>Ken Ragge

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Don't lose your email when you move, change jobs, or switch ISP's.

>Click here to get free and permanent email from NET@DDRESS!

>http://ads./click/153/0

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 02 Dec 1998 21:51:25 -0500 Ben Bradley

wrote:

>

> I'm not familiar with his situation, but years ago I'd heard some AA or

> 12-steppin' judge or someone's justification, saying forced attendance wasn't

> realy forced. (This was just after a ruling that AA was religious and a

> particular prisoner no longer had to attend meetings). The gist was that the

> offender/defendant was given A CHOICE between going to jail and attending AA,

> so he WAS NOT FORCED to go to AA.

Hi Ben

This is a common argument used by XAs. Didnt think I'd hear

it from a judge tho. Who was this guy - Maximum Bob?

I too am appalled by a 3 year stretch. I thought only

medical bodies imposed this kind of thing - that too of

course, is outrageous, but doesnt threaten incarceration.

Pete

----------

Pete Watts

PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT LIST:

http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

>OK so this is a challenge

>to get your collective shits together and try to do something rather than

>just whine.>>>>>

>

>How very endearing! Go to hell.

OK so that was not very a endearing thing to say, but I dont see any court

challenges posted .

I dont care where you live, the county seat always has a law library and

I've got one. If you say it's not copecetic to have state sponserd 12 step

groups, THEN YES THIS IS A CHALLENGE, I can do it, but it interferes with

my life, and I think you people could do some to. You dont need to be a

lawyer to read books and you dont have to be a lawyer to file motions. Lets

see some. GO FOR IT. The amount of time we spend reading our oun mail could

be spent better ,IF YOUR SERIOUS.

I did not mean anything personal by my language, and please dont take it

that way ,but lets get on with this. I'm sure you all have good ideas, but

put them to work rather than act like Loard of the Flies.

Larry

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

---

>>OK so this is a challenge

>>to get your collective shits together and try to do something rather than

>>just whine.>>>>>

>>

>>How very endearing! Go to hell.

>

>

>OK so that was not very a endearing thing to say, but I dont see any court

>challenges posted .

>I dont care where you live, the county seat always has a law library and

>I've got one. If you say it's not copecetic to have state sponserd 12 step

>groups, THEN YES THIS IS A CHALLENGE, I can do it, but it interferes with

>my life, and I think you people could do some to. You dont need to be a

>lawyer to read books and you dont have to be a lawyer to file motions. Lets

>see some. GO FOR IT.

>Larry

>

>

>

>-------------------------------------------

Larry;

While including information about the ineffectiveness of 12-step programs

will add to the persuasivness of any letter or brief you may write, please keep

in mind that legally, the BEST challenge to state-sponsored Steppism is its

UNCONSTITUTIONALITY on First Amendment grounds: if tax dollars are spent on

12-step-based treatment, then the State is promoting and supporting religious

exercises.

Refer to vs. Coughlin (N.Y.,1996) which can be found on legal

websites as well as on the Rational Recovery website.

I am involved in just such a lawsuit right now, against a state agency

which both coerces employees into hospital step-treatment and uses tax dollars

to pay for it. The agency knows they can't win; the decision declared

12-step ideology to be " unequivocally religious. " What they are trying to do

instead is (by underhanded methods) try to manipulate me into withdrawing the

suit. I'll relate the details sometime in the future. But the point is, _any_

taxpaying citizen can sue a state entity that uses tax $$$ to prop up Steppism.

Good luck.

~Railroad Rita

-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----

http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/2/99 8:52:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, lhl@...

writes:

> please pardon my ineptness.

I believe the word is ineptitude.

I am an editor. <G>

Henders

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

,

My SIL is currently at the hosp giving birth right now. This will be her 4th.

I am happy for her too. I can't wait to see the baby.

Tara

(no subject)

well, I just got the phone call that my friend Abby had a baby boy this

morning...if anyone remembers, Abby and I figured out that we both conceived

the same week while on separate vacations...I had the ep, so I felt a great

attachment to her during her pregnancy...

I didn't know how I would react, but I am pleased to say that I am really

thrilled for her!

Although, it makes me realize that I would be due any day now too...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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-- /VoiceChatPage?listName=ectopicpregnancy & m=1

[Guest guest]

The hurricane is now a category 4 and gaining force. The weather channel said

they don't think it will go to 5 but it might. My dtr-in-law who lives here has

gone to California for her company. She called today to see if we were all

still okay and I said, we're fine but your mom is probably being evacuated.

(Her mom lives in Lafayette...in S. Louisiana).

I hope all of my b.c. friends who live in S. Louisiana are going to be safe.

They already have b.c., they don't need water in their houses or worse than

that, houses that are blown away. doris