Guest guest Posted December 17, 1998 Report Share Posted December 17, 1998 In a message dated 12/17/98 11:34:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, zoesunshine@... writes: > I believe in God, and am tolerant of all religions, so the > prayers never bothered me. Perhaps if I had shown up and everyone was > chanting some voodoo at the beginning and end of each meeting I may > have caught on sooner. > > I think that's why I was so easily sucked into AA at first too. Having been brought up in a very strong Protestant Christian family, I had so much GUILT. I'll never forget my first AA meeting. When we did the Lord's Prayer I just sobbed and sobbed. Gives me a stomach ache to think about that. :>( Henders ------------------------------------------------------------------------ E-group home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/12-step-free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 1998 Report Share Posted December 17, 1998 The last time I attended meetings steadily, and that was some years ago, most of the members were treatment center graduates. The gospel according to treatment counsellors is that you never recover. Thus they ensure themselves a lifetime patient and cash flow. This may have changed since the insurance companies tend to listen to the available statistics about the efficacy of AA. Don't forget that treatment centers get ahold of people when they are very vulnerable as well. But it usually does occur to most patients eventually they they are paying $$K to find out that a free self-help group is the only thing that will work. Even they know they have been scammed money-wise, however, they may believe that AA is the only thing that will work, because that belief is reinforced by 99% of the people they will meet, the large majority of which know nothing at all about it except that they have heard that it is the only thing that works (this reinforcement is offered by mental health professionals as well as lay people, and is certainly talked up a lot by people like Ann Landers.) Al-Anon? Let's not go there. I could never understand what those people were talking about, tho they seemed to understand one another. --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) > > > >Hi folks! here are some of my miscellanious thoughts~ > >one of the first contradictions I noticed about AA, was that no one in >the program seemed to pay any attention to anything in their own >literature that related to being recovered. In the " Living Sober " >book, it clearly states that one does not have to attend meetings >forever " not at all! " , there is a section that mentions the happy day >one no longer needs a sponsor,and in the Big Book it clearly talks >about the third stage of recovery as being RECOVERED. Just try saying > " hi, I'm so-and-so, and I am a Recovered alcoholic, " at a meeting. The >last meeting I went to, I simply said, " hi I'm Heidi, " (what I wanted >to say was I am a glorious child of God, but I was too chicken);the >chairperson knew me and after about 5 seconds of silence she >said, " WELL? are you an alcoholic?! " I said I simply felt like being >different that night, but what she did was totally against AA " rules " . > It is my opinion that people in AA have confused alcoholism with >being a human. All feelings are seen as symptoms of the disease. In >that case, no you can never recover, because being human is forever; >suppressing,analyzing, and disecting all your emotions will only lead >to psychosis. My God, if you are upset that your boss is a jerk- run >to a meeting! Get rid of that feeling immediately! On the flip side, >I've also attended Al-Anon because when I started having negative >feelings about my boyfriend's negative behavior, well I knew I had to >go get some help to change myself. All Al-Anon did for me allow me to >accept unacceptable behavior for that much longer by telling me to >focus on myself. Boyfriend keeps breaking promises?keeps standing you >up? Well, just have a 'back-up' plan. Yes, that's right, make 2 plans >for every occasion- detach. After a while, I said to myself- this is >bulls***- I am 28 years old and I'm supposed to detach from my >relationship and have alternate plans so I can " take care of myself " >when my boyfriend lets me down again? That's not what my idea of a >relationship . In fact, I listened to an al-anon speaker tape where >the woman laughed at herself for being so 'selfish' and 'needy' when >she had the nerve to get upset that her husband refused to spend >Christmas with the family because was speaking that night. >Interestingly enough, she finished the tape up with an in depth >description of her alcoholic children and drug addict grandchildren. >Sounds like Dad's 'sobriety' really did a lot for the family. >(sorry for the bitterness-I am just getting in touch with some real >anger at what I went through) > Speaking of what I went through- I certainly don't think I deserved >it. I went to these people in good faith at a very impressionable time >in my life(I have family in the program also)and they really screwed >me up. I believe in God, and am tolerant of all religions, so the >prayers never bothered me. Perhaps if I had shown up and everyone was >chanting some voodoo at the begining and end of each meeting I may >have caught on sooner. > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Great gifts for the Holidays or birthdays or anyday for that matter >Bugs Life action game, Thanksgiving Pooh, Disney videos, toys and CD-ROMs >http://offers./click/145/5 > >E-group home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/12-step-free > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 1998 Report Share Posted December 17, 1998 Hi Heidi Thankyou for this interesting view. I have " Living Sober " but didnt read it all. It has several interesting points, not least it also includes an anti-med section. Quite well informd ppl sometimes dont know its an AA book; AAs themselves of course, may try to disown it by sating it's not in the first 164 pages of the BB. The suggestion that one doesnt have to attend meetings or have a sponsor forever is interesting, since in fact there is no suggestion this is true in the BB either. Cynical Pete thinks this might be simply a ploy on the part of the authors to try to prevent ppl being scared off by the notions of lifelong AA dependence one normally hears. Also, there is the definite suggestion of lifelong adherence to the program, and to do Step 12, you have to enroll other ppl. Ken and the other scholars might be able to spread light on this but I get the impression that the early meetings were not meant to be therapeutic but in fact were testimonial meetings whereby the saved could testify to their redemption as a means to convert others - hence the " Experience, Strength, and Hope " description, and the " Primary Purpose " of Tradition 5. Ive been to just one Al-Anon meeting. They talked abt their " addiction " and I think, " disease " too. What " Disease " are they talking abt? The notion is even more odd than " addictive disease " . As far as I know, they never even gave it a name. Now, of course, it gets called " co-alcoholism " or " co-dependency " or even the " Family Disease " . (The last I think disgusting.) Some codependency theorists have said that to simply be related to or close to a " primary " addict make you automatically codependent, and that 96% of ppl are " primary " coependents and some of the rest are " secondary " codependents through having to live with all the primary ones. My rehab-running former sponsor claims that " Family Disease " (which he now calls " Compulsive Helping " , and founded " Helpers Anonymous " to deal with it) is genetic in origin, just like " primary " addiction. Ironically, he considers that involvement in sects is often itself addictve! Even when fully brainwashed I thought it remarkable the idea that one could have a genetically mediated compulsion to clearing up after alcoholics and and addicts. At the very least, one would have to say that it could extend to compulsively helping any incapacitated person, which would go down a slippery slope of suggesting that it was dysfunctional to be close to anyone who was disabled or infirm for other reasons. Al-Anon seems to be much smaller than AA, despite the fact that every alcohol abuser usually is close to several ppl who would qualify, perhaps because generally, few in their right minds will buy it. Funnily enough, I remember my sponsor was proud of the fact that he would confront " Families Anonymous " members with the question: " What do you need a 12-step program for if you dont have an addiction? " . Ppl tend to universally advocate AL-Anon for ppl with addicted relatives like they universally advocate XA for addicts. But what if I have an addicted relative and I *dont* have a disease? Where do I go for support then? My sponsor used to say that " Family Disease " was the " mirror-image " of primary addiction, like an isomer of a molecule. I remember thinking, fair enough, but then why do these ppl use the *same* program for recovery? Shouldnt they need a " mirror image " program? The 12-step program could be seen as an attempt to moderate 'selfish' behavior, a program for social offenders, if you like, as some substance abusers are. In the case of some alcoholics/addicts, it might be appropriate; it might at least create a reaction formation against antisocial behavior from which they and others might benefit most of the time. In a sense, an insistence on abstinence as absolutely essential for anyone to recover is itself a reaction formation against alcohol abuse. However, logically, Al-Anon ought to be a " victims " program, one for those offended against, ones who perhaps find it hard to stop themselves being made victims and allow themselves to be expoited, neglected or abused. It isnt that; instead, imho it's rather like Bill 's notorious " Too Wives " chapter in the BB when the " absolutely honest " author pretended to be an alcoholic's wife - in modern times, it reads as a primer on how to be a better codependent. Pete On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:31:31 -0800 (PST) heidi michaud wrote: > > > > Hi folks! here are some of my miscellanious thoughts~ > > one of the first contradictions I noticed about AA, was that no one in > the program seemed to pay any attention to anything in their own > literature that related to being recovered. In the " Living Sober " > book, it clearly states that one does not have to attend meetings > forever " not at all! " , there is a section that mentions the happy day > one no longer needs a sponsor,and in the Big Book it clearly talks > about the third stage of recovery as being RECOVERED. Just try saying > " hi, I'm so-and-so, and I am a Recovered alcoholic, " at a meeting. The > last meeting I went to, I simply said, " hi I'm Heidi, " (what I wanted > to say was I am a glorious child of God, but I was too chicken);the > chairperson knew me and after about 5 seconds of silence she > said, " WELL? are you an alcoholic?! " I said I simply felt like being > different that night, but what she did was totally against AA " rules " . > It is my opinion that people in AA have confused alcoholism with > being a human. All feelings are seen as symptoms of the disease. In > that case, no you can never recover, because being human is forever; > suppressing,analyzing, and disecting all your emotions will only lead > to psychosis. My God, if you are upset that your boss is a jerk- run > to a meeting! Get rid of that feeling immediately! On the flip side, > I've also attended Al-Anon because when I started having negative > feelings about my boyfriend's negative behavior, well I knew I had to > go get some help to change myself. All Al-Anon did for me allow me to > accept unacceptable behavior for that much longer by telling me to > focus on myself. Boyfriend keeps breaking promises?keeps standing you > up? Well, just have a 'back-up' plan. Yes, that's right, make 2 plans > for every occasion- detach. After a while, I said to myself- this is > bulls***- I am 28 years old and I'm supposed to detach from my > relationship and have alternate plans so I can " take care of myself " > when my boyfriend lets me down again? That's not what my idea of a > relationship . In fact, I listened to an al-anon speaker tape where > the woman laughed at herself for being so 'selfish' and 'needy' when > she had the nerve to get upset that her husband refused to spend > Christmas with the family because was speaking that night. > Interestingly enough, she finished the tape up with an in depth > description of her alcoholic children and drug addict grandchildren. > Sounds like Dad's 'sobriety' really did a lot for the family. > (sorry for the bitterness-I am just getting in touch with some real > anger at what I went through) > Speaking of what I went through- I certainly don't think I deserved > it. I went to these people in good faith at a very impressionable time > in my life(I have family in the program also)and they really screwed > me up. I believe in God, and am tolerant of all religions, so the > prayers never bothered me. Perhaps if I had shown up and everyone was > chanting some voodoo at the begining and end of each meeting I may > have caught on sooner. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Great gifts for the Holidays or birthdays or anyday for that matter > Bugs Life action game, Thanksgiving Pooh, Disney videos, toys and CD-ROMs > http://offers./click/145/5 > > E-group home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/12-step-free > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 1998 Report Share Posted December 17, 1998 Re Al-Anon and " codependency " : I once asked a friend of mine if it was dysfunctional to wash an " alcoholic's " dishes and not someone's who had the flu (for example). She said " Right. " I asked why, and her answer was the equivalent of " It just is. " I guess the explanation is that those " alcoholics " have been depending on those " enablers " for so many years that they have to learn to do for themselves. --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >Hi Heidi > >Thankyou for this interesting view. > >I have " Living Sober " but didnt read it all. It has several >interesting points, not least it also includes an anti-med >section. Quite well informd ppl sometimes dont know its an >AA book; AAs themselves of course, may try to disown it by >sating it's not in the first 164 pages of the BB. > >The suggestion that one doesnt have to attend meetings or >have a sponsor forever is interesting, since in fact there >is no suggestion this is true in the BB either. Cynical >Pete thinks this might be simply a ploy on the part of the >authors to try to prevent ppl being scared off by the >notions of lifelong AA dependence one normally hears. >Also, there is the definite suggestion of lifelong >adherence to the program, and to do Step 12, you have to >enroll other ppl. > >Ken and the other scholars might be able to spread light on >this but I get the impression that the early meetings were >not meant to be therapeutic but in fact were testimonial >meetings whereby the saved could testify to their >redemption as a means to convert others - hence the > " Experience, Strength, and Hope " description, and the > " Primary Purpose " of Tradition 5. > >Ive been to just one Al-Anon meeting. They talked abt >their " addiction " and I think, " disease " too. What > " Disease " are they talking abt? The notion is even more odd >than " addictive disease " . As far as I know, they never >even gave it a name. Now, of course, it gets called > " co-alcoholism " or " co-dependency " or even the " Family >Disease " . (The last I think disgusting.) > >Some codependency theorists have said that to simply be >related to or close to a " primary " addict make you >automatically codependent, and that 96% of ppl are > " primary " coependents and some of the rest are " secondary " >codependents through having to live with all the primary >ones. > >My rehab-running former sponsor claims that " Family >Disease " (which he now calls " Compulsive Helping " , and >founded " Helpers Anonymous " to deal with it) is genetic in >origin, just like " primary " addiction. Ironically, he >considers that involvement in sects is often itself >addictve! > >Even when fully brainwashed I thought it remarkable the >idea that one could have a genetically mediated compulsion >to clearing up after alcoholics and and addicts. At the >very least, one would have to say that it could extend to >compulsively helping any incapacitated person, which would >go down a slippery slope of suggesting that it was >dysfunctional to be close to anyone who was disabled or >infirm for other reasons. > >Al-Anon seems to be much smaller than AA, despite the fact >that every alcohol abuser usually is close to several ppl >who would qualify, perhaps because generally, few in their >right minds will buy it. > >Funnily enough, I remember my sponsor was proud of the fact >that he would confront " Families Anonymous " members with >the question: " What do you need a 12-step program for if >you dont have an addiction? " . > >Ppl tend to universally advocate AL-Anon for ppl with >addicted relatives like they universally advocate XA for >addicts. But what if I have an addicted relative and I >*dont* have a disease? Where do I go for support then? > >My sponsor used to say that " Family Disease " was the > " mirror-image " of primary addiction, like an isomer of a >molecule. I remember thinking, fair enough, but then why >do these ppl use the *same* program for recovery? Shouldnt >they need a " mirror image " program? > >The 12-step program could be seen as an attempt to moderate >'selfish' behavior, a program for social offenders, if you >like, as some substance abusers are. In the case of some >alcoholics/addicts, it might be appropriate; it might at >least create a reaction formation against antisocial >behavior from which they and others might benefit most of >the time. In a sense, an insistence on abstinence as >absolutely essential for anyone to recover is itself a >reaction formation against alcohol abuse. > >However, logically, Al-Anon ought to be a " victims " >program, one for those offended against, ones who perhaps >find it hard to stop themselves being made victims and >allow themselves to be expoited, neglected or abused. It >isnt that; instead, imho it's rather like Bill 's >notorious " Too Wives " chapter in the BB when the > " absolutely honest " author pretended to be an alcoholic's >wife - in modern times, it reads as a primer on how to be a >better codependent. > >Pete > >On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:31:31 -0800 (PST) heidi michaud > wrote: > >> >> >> >> Hi folks! here are some of my miscellanious thoughts~ >> >> one of the first contradictions I noticed about AA, was that no one in >> the program seemed to pay any attention to anything in their own >> literature that related to being recovered. In the " Living Sober " >> book, it clearly states that one does not have to attend meetings >> forever " not at all! " , there is a section that mentions the happy day >> one no longer needs a sponsor,and in the Big Book it clearly talks >> about the third stage of recovery as being RECOVERED. Just try saying >> " hi, I'm so-and-so, and I am a Recovered alcoholic, " at a meeting. The >> last meeting I went to, I simply said, " hi I'm Heidi, " (what I wanted >> to say was I am a glorious child of God, but I was too chicken);the >> chairperson knew me and after about 5 seconds of silence she >> said, " WELL? are you an alcoholic?! " I said I simply felt like being >> different that night, but what she did was totally against AA " rules " . >> It is my opinion that people in AA have confused alcoholism with >> being a human. All feelings are seen as symptoms of the disease. In >> that case, no you can never recover, because being human is forever; >> suppressing,analyzing, and disecting all your emotions will only lead >> to psychosis. My God, if you are upset that your boss is a jerk- run >> to a meeting! Get rid of that feeling immediately! On the flip side, >> I've also attended Al-Anon because when I started having negative >> feelings about my boyfriend's negative behavior, well I knew I had to >> go get some help to change myself. All Al-Anon did for me allow me to >> accept unacceptable behavior for that much longer by telling me to >> focus on myself. Boyfriend keeps breaking promises?keeps standing you >> up? Well, just have a 'back-up' plan. Yes, that's right, make 2 plans >> for every occasion- detach. After a while, I said to myself- this is >> bulls***- I am 28 years old and I'm supposed to detach from my >> relationship and have alternate plans so I can " take care of myself " >> when my boyfriend lets me down again? That's not what my idea of a >> relationship . In fact, I listened to an al-anon speaker tape where >> the woman laughed at herself for being so 'selfish' and 'needy' when >> she had the nerve to get upset that her husband refused to spend >> Christmas with the family because was speaking that night. >> Interestingly enough, she finished the tape up with an in depth >> description of her alcoholic children and drug addict grandchildren. >> Sounds like Dad's 'sobriety' really did a lot for the family. >> (sorry for the bitterness-I am just getting in touch with some real >> anger at what I went through) >> Speaking of what I went through- I certainly don't think I deserved >> it. I went to these people in good faith at a very impressionable time >> in my life(I have family in the program also)and they really screwed >> me up. I believe in God, and am tolerant of all religions, so the >> prayers never bothered me. Perhaps if I had shown up and everyone was >> chanting some voodoo at the begining and end of each meeting I may >> have caught on sooner. >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Great gifts for the Holidays or birthdays or anyday for that matter >> Bugs Life action game, Thanksgiving Pooh, Disney videos, toys and CD-ROMs >> http://offers./click/145/5 >> >> E-group home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/12-step-free >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 1998 Report Share Posted December 18, 1998 Hi folks, This is off topic a little for this thread, but I got to thinking about how our Provincial Government Alcohol and Drug Services Div. (Canada) supports and practices the biopsychosocial model, yet the industry is still pretty much 100% diseased. A and D services does A and R, case management and ongoing addictions counseling and runs day clinic groups teaching relapse prevention using this model, then refers the clients off to XA disease meetings and treatment centers. Confusing for clients I think because the two models don't mesh well. After disease treatment and meetings, the client comes back to their ADS counsellor and the biopsychosocial model for ongoing counseling and relapse prevention. But then they could also take advantage of the relapse prevention program many treatment centers offer too. I don't know why they continue to fund these places if they don't support the government's chosen model. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ E-group home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/12-step-free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 1998 Report Share Posted December 18, 1998 Hi Rick Dont expect rationality from Governments and treatment providers! Pete On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:50:10 -0800 Rick Griffiths wrote: > Hi folks, > > This is off topic a little for this thread, but I got to thinking about > how our Provincial Government Alcohol and Drug Services Div. (Canada) > supports and practices the biopsychosocial model, yet the industry is > still pretty much 100% diseased. A and D services does A and R, case > management and ongoing addictions counseling and runs day clinic groups > teaching relapse prevention using this model, then refers the clients > off to XA disease meetings and treatment centers. Confusing for clients > I think because the two models don't mesh well. After disease treatment > and meetings, the client comes back to their ADS counsellor and the > biopsychosocial model for ongoing counseling and relapse prevention. But > then they could also take advantage of the relapse prevention program > many treatment centers offer too. I don't know why they continue to > fund these places if they don't support the government's chosen model. ---------- Pete Watts PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT LIST: http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders ------------------------------------------------------------------------ E-group home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/12-step-free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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