Re: that sucking sound

February 10, 1999

In a message dated 2/10/99 3:49:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,

kimrh67@... writes:

> 12 years. Geez.

> My sympathies. Hey, I certainly also understand why someone would get

> sucked into AA I don't blame myself I'm a lot more angry than feeling

> like an idiot it just sucks that there are a lot of people in society

> that don't understand about cults and have been conned into believing

> AA propaganda

In the town where I used to live there is a judge who sucks in everybody he

can get his hands on. He's the judge, therefore he can legally sentence people

to AA. He practically walks on water in that town. While claiming anonymity,

he nevertheless is well known locally for being an AA member and big proponent

of the 12 steps. He's " saved " more people than the Baptist minister, in some

peoples' eyes.

Sometimes I think the whole country is run by steppers.

I'm tired.

Henders

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February 10, 1999

In a message dated 2/10/99 11:34:22 PM Central Standard Time,

Henders88@... writes:

<<

In the town where I used to live there is a judge who sucks in everybody he

can get his hands on. He's the judge, therefore he can legally sentence

people

to AA. He practically walks on water in that town. While claiming anonymity,

he nevertheless is well known locally for being an AA member and big

proponent

of the 12 steps. He's " saved " more people than the Baptist minister, in some

peoples' eyes.

Sometimes I think the whole country is run by steppers.>>>>

What are some good antidotes to cultthink? I think some of Ayn Rand's writing

is excellent (individual vs. collective, like in the novel " Anthem " ), although

ironically cultlike behavior has grown up around it in some quarters. Any

other ideas? What worked for you?

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February 10, 1999

<<Sometimes I think the whole country is run by steppers.>>

Once again... the only twelve steps I'm interested in are the ones leading out

the door.

-Apple

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February 11, 1999

I have read those things, and am quite aware of Rand and her propensity for

authoritarian guruism in her actual life. However, this has little to do with

the philosophy itself, which in fact is contradicted by this very sort of

behavior on several counts. The Ayn Rand Institute has continued this

curiously contradictory " cult of personality " that followed Rand. But that may

not be all bad, since people who have a tendency to fall into this sort of

trap may wind up in that group instead of something more harmful, like

scientology or some such. At any rate, it is important to separate principles

from personalities, and philosophy itself from philosophers. It makes no

difference if " The Virtue Of Selfishness " and other such works were written by

a Nazi Skinhead in a heroin stupor--they should be allowed to stand on their

own merits.

In a message dated 2/11/99 5:47:50 PM Central Standard Time,

PAULDIENER@... writes:

<< Pupship - You might want to read the memoirs of the two Brandens, iel

and Barbara. They were in the Ayn Rand cult in the 50s. It was a

political cult with a strong right-wing flavor, and featured some

non-normative sexual behaviors (many cults do). By the way, 'cult' is not

necessarily a dirty word. As sociologist of religion use the term, it

merely refers to a relatively small group of believers who are devoted to

principles which differ from those of the mainstream society. 'Cult' is

usually distinguished from 'sect'. In cults, social and economic

separation from the larger society is not complete, whereas in 'sects' it

is moreso. Examples of cults are performance cults (eg, focused upon

Grateful Dead, the Rocky Horror Picture Show, etc.), astrology cults, UFO

cults, 'medical' cults (eg, organized around many 'holistic healers', early

Oxford Groups, early AAl), and religious cults (New Thought groups, early

Christian Science, Transcendental Meditation). Sects involve a more

complete withdrawal from the larger society, a 'defensive' social

structure, frequently unique dress and even language, and various other

'adaptations'; the Amish are considered a Christian sect. Jim '

town was a sect, not a cult. So were the Mormons of early Utah.

Ditto the Hutterites today in the upper Midwest. In general, one can say

cults are diffuse and incompletely separated from the larger society; sects

are more compact and structured, and defensively organized to defend their

'system' against a larger society which they see as 'evil.' Koresh

headed a sect, not a cult. Huston a cult, not a sect. Anyway, the

main point is, cults and sects are the starting point for many major social

movements. If they grow, they may become established institutions; most,

however, endure only a short time. Hundreds of cults and sects pop up in

the US every year, and thousands do so around the world. Early

Christianity began as a sect, it grew into a state religion; early fascism

began as a cult, it grew into a vast social movement. Hence, 'cults' and

'sects' are not NECESSARILY bad. Cults and sects meet a felt need for

radically new forms of thinking and social organization, and they

proliferate at times of social and cultural crisis. In fact,

anthropologists often use the term 'crisis cult' as a rubric for many of

these movements. What matters for you, me, and other individuals is not

that we necessarily avoid all cults and sects but, rather, that we avoid

BAD cults and sects. Some cults and sects may be very harmful - to the

individual, to society, or to both. Others may have benign, even

beneficient, effects. The trick is to carefully examine who you associate

with, and carefully judge what you stand for, and what the people in the

cult or sect stand for. A healthy affiliation with any group of people -

including with a small group of intense believers that espouses values

divergent from the mainstrean society, ie, a sect or cult - is an

affiliation that benefits the individual AND portends benefits to humanity.

Some cults and sects feature beliefs and practices that are evil; other

cults and sects feature beliefs and practices that may be quite beneficial.

As with anything else, it is best to look carefully before leapin >>

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February 11, 1999

In a message dated 2/10/99 10:37:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, Pupship@...

writes:

>

> What are some good antidotes to cultthink? I think some of Ayn Rand's

> writing

> is excellent (individual vs. collective, like in the novel " Anthem " ),

> although

> ironically cultlike behavior has grown up around it in some quarters. Any

> other ideas? What worked for you?

>

I like the Moody Blues' album (and I realize I am dating myself here) " On the

Threshold of a Dream. " Especially this part:

" There you go, man

Keep as cool as you can.

Face piles

and piles

of trials

with smiles

It riles them to believe

that you perceive

the web they weave....

And keep on thinking free.' "

Choose your own slogans. Read whatever you want to read, and most importantly,

think your own thoughts! Whatever you want!

Henders

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February 11, 1999

I agree with your whole post, and I have indeed found it informative to look

into the background of Rand, AA, and many other things. There are few indeed

with untainted motives.

In a message dated 2/11/99 9:09:01 PM Central Standard Time,

PAULDIENER@... writes:

<< pup - you are right that validity of an argument is unaffected by

authorship, and that ad hominem is fallacious. However, it is also

sometimes informative to explore the relationship between the proponent of

a position, and the social environment and/or class background of that same

person. This does not invalidate the argument, but rather puts it in

context. We must judge what the tobacco companies say about smoking and

health, for example, on the basis of the facts. But it does not hurt to

recognize that they might have a vested interest, too. Ditto Rand, or AA -

or even me, for that matter. This is not a defense of ad hominem, just a

claim that gathering background info info can have its value. As to

selfishness and objectivism, 'self' itself is a tricky concept, and so is

'objectivity'. I have my own opinions on all these matters. But I do not

suffer from the illusion that MY opinions should necessarily be YOURS.

Rather, I would merely encourage you, and others, to wrestle with such

knotty problems as honestly and fearlessly as you can. It isn't the

destination, but the journey that matters. ciao wuoldyouryjld am not

>>

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February 11, 1999

Well stated.

In a message dated 2/11/99 9:32:13 PM Central Standard Time, Henders88@...

writes:

<<

>

I like the Moody Blues' album (and I realize I am dating myself here) " On the

Threshold of a Dream. " Especially this part:

" There you go, man

Keep as cool as you can.

Face piles

and piles

of trials

with smiles

It riles them to believe

that you perceive

the web they weave....

And keep on thinking free.' "

Choose your own slogans. Read whatever you want to read, and most

importantly,

think your own thoughts! Whatever you want!

>>

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February 11, 1999

pup - you are right that validity of an argument is unaffected by