Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die -especially of interest to women

[Guest guest]

Hi, Read The Codependency Conspiracy " by Stan Katz if you don't want to

short change people into thinking there is something pathological about

dependence. Cheers, Carol Francey, Rational Recovery Vancouver and member

of Http://BCRecovernet.org

At 11:49 AM 2/1/99 -0600, you wrote:

>Joe - " education " and " psychological treatment " always have effects on two

>levels. First, the individual is effected. Second, the social environment

>and social structure is effected. Even " techniques " that make individuals

> " happier " or " better adjusted " can lead to severe social problems -

>consider the massive use of short-term psychotherapy in the Third Reich,

>for example, which served to " adjust " people to nazi culture. My point -

>simply looking for " effective " alternatives to 12-step treatments isn't

>sufficient. We need a deep questioning of the social meaning of

> " addiction " and " codependency, " and as part of their " recovery " for

> " personal " problems, it is best if people simultaneously rethink their

>place in society and their social values. Indeed, as a massive

> " conversion " literature in religious studies indicates, it is exactly when

>people are suffering from " personal " problems that they are likely to

>rethink and reformulate social and political attitudes. This is why AA -

>and other conservative movements - want to divorce the " recovery " from

> " politics " - they know that people with personal problems are likely to

>emerge from such a period with a new social vision. I think it is

>important to provide " recovering " people with a very, very wide base of

>information having to do with " addiction, " including social and political

>insight.--------

>>

>> To: 12-step-freeegroups

>> Subject: Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die -especially of

>interest to women

>> Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 11:00 AM

>>

>> At 05:53 AM 2/1/99 EST, you wrote:

>> >Thanks so so much for your comments. Can't believe it's been so hard to

>find

>> >people who react to victims of crime in a normal fashion. I'm putting

>up a

>> >web-site soon. It'll be called www.AAdeprorgramming.com . Snowy Eagle

>if

>> >you'd like to add your " story " of how you broke free of 12 step hell,

>please

>> >do.

>>

>> <snip>

>>

>>

>> Hi. Your idea of deprogramming web page is a good one. If enough people

>> create alternative information resources, the situation will continue to

>> change and the balance will shift. As it is there are many resources that

>> blindly support the 12 step model- I've had book and tape lists that have

>> page after page of stuff that simply reinforce the old ineffective model.

>> Have you ever seen a Hazelden catalogue? I have one on my " hazardous

>> materials " shelf, along with a collection of other similar stuff. It

>makes

>> scary reading. So much printed material, so little of it factual or

>useful.

>> I think that eventually there could be a similar amount of good quality

>> information that goes in the opposite direction, that explains that the

>12

>> steps are basically ineffective, more likely to be harmful than not, and

>> that there are quite a number of effective alternatives. The encouraging

>> thing is that given equal quantities of information pro- and con the 12

>> step approach, I think a great many people will choose an approach that

>> appeals to common sense rather than the one that undermines it.

>>

>> Joe Berenbaum

>>

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[Guest guest]

Rick - I assume you know the Lily Tomlin line - " Reality is only a

collective hunch. "

----------

To: 12-step-freeegroups

Subject: Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die -especially of

interest to women

Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 8:17 PM

At 12:34 AM 2/1/99 -0600, E Diener wrote:

>Rick - " accepting " and " powerless " mean what they say - DO AS YOU ARE

TOLD!

> I don't think there is a way to put a " good " spin on subservience. The

Even if one DOES allow for the different spin Rick is putting on

the Acceptance Paragraph, the overall AA belief is NOT his interpretation.

>glory of humanity is our ability to formulate ethical system, and to

employ

>them as an aid in spotting shortcomings in " reality. " The next step is to

>overthrow the status quo, and establish a better set of conditions.

>Obviously, this can be done in small things, in personal things, in large

>things, and in social things. Wherever it is applied, inventiveness and

>creativity always begin by NOT accepting reality,

Specifically, 'Reality' as others know it.

>

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die - especially of

>interest to women

>Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 12:45 PM

>

>AppleDTP@... wrote:

>>

>

>> I had a sponsor who told me to read page 449 of the Big Book ten times:

>>

>> ---And acceptance is the answer to *all* my problems today. When I

am

>disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thinng or situation ‹

>some fact of my life unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until

I

>accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it

>is supposed to be at this moment. Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in

>God's world by mistake. Until I could accept my alcoholism, I could not

>stay sober, unless I accept life completely on life's terms

>>

>> HA!

>>

>> I also learned in the rooms that if a situation or person disturbs me,

>it's really my fault, because I generated the expectations! And

>expectations are just resentments waiting to happen.

It's amazing how much writings in the big book, both within the first

164

pages and in this story (Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict, present only in the

Third

Edition published beginning in 1975), have become catch-phrases and

slogans.

I once heard someone say " I judged myself on my intentions, while other

people judged me on my actions. " [ignoring the content, which could be the

subject of another message] I knew this came from that story, but the

person

said it as if it were her own experience.

It's an unspoken aspect of anonymity - people quote things (the big

book,

the Bible, their sponsor, who/whatever) without giving the source of the

quote.

Bill , writing in big book does this, quoting the Bible (to

continue

an earlier thread about Bible quotes in AA)without mentioning the source (I

have no doubt Bill knew exactly where this came from - it wasn't just

something he heard from Ebby that stuck with him) " Faith without works

is dead " (appears several times, first at the bottom of page 14). From

2:29, King Version: " For as the body without the spirit is dead, so

faith without works is dead also. "

>You know, if you put a different spin on this, it sounds very helpful to

>me. Acceptance doesn't have to mean I agree with,

That's one of the 12-step arguments I've heard for acceptance. It's also

one of the arguments for doing the things you're told to do - " You don't

have to agree with your sponsor, or the steps. or any part of the program,

just do as they say "

> or am willing to

>continue what I'm accepting if it's possible not to. I think what the

>author could mean is that there are benefits to accepting reality just

>as it is

Here you may have a point, but it depends on how you define (where have

we heard this in the news recently...) reality. " Before coming to the

program

I sure did get drunk a lot. I can stop drinking only with God's help. "

AA'ers

see BOTH of these sentences as accurate and valid descriptions of reality.

>instead of spending too much (if any) time complaining to

>others (and especially myself) about what has happened. It is now

>history.

" Get over it " as the Eagles song said.

A guy in a meeting told about a good AA friend who was to tell his

story at a speakers' meeting one day. Earlier that day his friend's son

had died. He told about how his friend went on to tell his story, and

didn't even mention the death of his son. He said he and his friend were

the only two people in that meeting that knew of the death of his friend's

son. He said what a great thing the AA program was that this friend of his

could go through with telling his story just after learning his own son had

died, and without even mentioning it, that this was a demonstration of how

powerful and wonderful the program was.

In spite of being in the middle of the AA belief system, I was somewhat

disturbed by this - both that his friend didn't mention the death, and that

he thought this was so wonderful.

-----

http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley/seasons_greetings.html

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