Guest guest Posted February 8, 1999 Report Share Posted February 8, 1999 Hello Ken: I saw the new addition of your book and the Alice text appeared absent. Is this b/c the Stettenbacker stuff? I am very interested in the current status of 's view of your work. It seems more and more obvious to me that 12sp are a severe and growing form of what terms " Poisonous Pedagogy. " In other words, 12sp-ism is ABUSE, and a codified justification of abuse. I'm not going to waste space here with the delineation and detail. However, I think serious abuses are going undetected. I also see this as a possible crack in the 12sp Public Relations fortress. If we take someone who is in active addiction as a consequence of abuse [vide: Christiane F, Alice Miler, " For Your Own Good " ) and then subject that person to more abuse via 12sp, we are making serious mistakes. The theraputic issues are many. What I find further amazing and horrifying, is that a founder of the Adult Child movement that I know personally, Bowden ( and to my understanding also Bradshaw, C. Black, Cermac[sic?] et al) have big debts to and wholesale borrowings from (ACA/inner child sprang from 's work) but are also HUGE 12sp advocates. I gave your book to Bowden to read as part of my discussion that alanon was abusive, and she handed it back in a week saying she'd " paged through it. " It then transpired that she'd read some of the and almost none of your text. I assume the chapter titles were enough to bring up alanon alerts. When I tried to discuss further, and Press her intellectual honesty, I hit the alanon wall. She simply refused to accept that would support, or at least find sympathy, with your critique of 12sp. I had explained to her the hour phone call to you from , etc. I was basically saying, " Look , here's the person who pretty much began your movement and did all the work, a person who you've told me was 'seminal' in your own USA ACA stuff, who is very well-respected, considered 'the' expert, and this seminal person took extraordinary steps to support Ken's extreme attack on 12sp. Even more, if your read the foreward and afterword to Ken's text, you will find that she characterizes these 12sp meetings and methods as a 'betrayal of the self !!! What's going on here, . Face the music; there's a contradiction. You either have to fault or begin to re-examine what 12sp is really all about. " Bang. and simply would not talk about it... and this woman is hopping around giving seminars and workshops at Mt. Madonna, Esalan, etc. and writing books, of course. to saying nothing of Bradshaw. This exchange pretty much ended our ability to discuss these issues further. However, I am currently becoming increasing upset that Inner child people are running about advocating 12sp. My own research is taking a side track with this. any thoughts. BTW: critiques which link fascism and 12sp might find material here, esp with 's analysis of Hitler. -g. price ---------- From: Ken R[sMTP:kenr1@...] Sent: Sunday, February 07, 1999 8:41 AM To: 12-step-freeegroups Subject: Re: Digest <<File: ATT00000.txt>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ZZZXXXZZ\ Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 1999 Report Share Posted February 9, 1999 A. Price wrote: > > Hello Ken: > > I saw the new addition of your book and the Alice text appeared absent. Is this b/c the Stettenbacker stuff? > , Doesn't have to do with Stettbacher at all but perhaps a misjudgement on my part. Originally, with the See Sharp edition I was supposed to write material to replace Alice 's material because the publisher felt that the radical difference in writing style between her and I was a problem. (Correct me if I've got this somewhat wrong, Chaz.) I simply couldn't do it -- I'm no Alice . I certainly feel that the book is missing something important by not having the Alice material and the posts here referring to childhood abuse are a constant reminder. As far as what went on with Stettbacher, I don't know any more than a letter posted on a website explaining her position, which is I guess all any of us know. > I am very interested in the current status of 's view of your work. I am too. I haven't spoken to her in years but often think of calling or writing. > It seems more and more obvious to me that 12sp are a severe and growing form of what terms " Poisonous Pedagogy. " In other words, 12sp-ism is ABUSE, and a codified justification of abuse. I'm not going to waste space here with the delineation and detail. > > However, I think serious abuses are going undetected. I also see this as a possible crack in the 12sp Public Relations fortress. > > If we take someone who is in active addiction as a consequence of abuse [vide: Christiane F, Alice Miler, " For Your Own Good " ) and then subject that person to more abuse via 12sp, we are making serious mistakes. The theraputic issues are many. > > What I find further amazing and horrifying, is that a founder of the Adult Child movement that I know personally, Bowden ( and to my understanding also Bradshaw, C. Black, Cermac[sic?] et al) have big debts to and wholesale borrowings from (ACA/inner child sprang from 's work) but are also HUGE 12sp advocates. Actually, " inner child " did _not_ spring from Alice 's work. If memory serves me correctly, she had one line in one of her books that used that expression or a similar one but it wasn't at all in the sense it is used in the step groups. There is a matter of repressed childhood experience, most particularly abusive experience, having a dramatic effect on the adult. It is a far different thing to encourage someone, (using TA language) to move into the " Child " state, look to the group as " Parent " and totally ignore the existence of the " Adult. " I can not imagine that she could have become a group supporter. It is just far too inconsistent with what she has had to say. > I gave your book to Bowden to read as part of my discussion that alanon was abusive, and she handed it back in a week saying she'd " paged through it. " It then transpired that she'd read some of the and almost none of your text. I assume the chapter titles were enough to bring up alanon alerts. > > When I tried to discuss further, and Press her intellectual honesty, I hit the alanon wall. She simply refused to accept that would support, or at least find sympathy, with your critique of 12sp. > > I had explained to her the hour phone call to you from , etc. I was basically saying, " Look , here's the person who pretty much began your movement and did all the work, a person who you've told me was 'seminal' in your own USA ACA stuff, who is very well-respected, considered 'the' expert, and this seminal person took extraordinary steps to support Ken's extreme attack on 12sp. > > Even more, if your read the foreward and afterword to Ken's text, you will find that she characterizes these 12sp meetings and methods as a 'betrayal of the self !!! What's going on here, . Face the music; there's a contradiction. You either have to fault or begin to re-examine what 12sp is really all about. " > > Bang. and simply would not talk about it... > > and this woman is hopping around giving seminars and workshops at Mt. Madonna, Esalan, etc. and writing books, of course. to saying nothing of Bradshaw. > > This exchange pretty much ended our ability to discuss these issues further. > > However, I am currently becoming increasing upset that Inner child people are running about advocating 12sp. I think the " Inner child people " simply use what they can of 's work to destablize people with the intention of slapping the 12-step ideology on them. Looking superficially at one's past to find one's " defects of character " and working to " forgive " and find " serenity " is simply diametrically opposed to everything I've ever seen out of Alice . > > My own research is taking a side track with this. > > any thoughts. > > BTW: critiques which link fascism and 12sp might find material here, esp with 's analysis of Hitler. Her analysis of Hitler is great as are her analyses of Ceaçescu, Stalin and other historical figures. Can't say that I don't find it quite disturbing that Alice 's writing of childhood as a key to liberation is perverted and used instead as a method of maintaining/establishing authority and supporting authoritarianism. Ken Ragge > -g. price > > ---------- > From: Ken R[sMTP:kenr1@...] > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 1999 8:41 AM > To: 12-step-freeegroups > Subject: Re: Digest > > <<File: ATT00000.txt>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 1999 Report Share Posted February 9, 1999 wrote: > , > > There really is an e-mail digest which will send out all the day's > e-mails in one big e-mail. Whether a subscriber can set himself up for > that or not I don't know (If someone has done it, please let us know > how) but I can set any subscriber who wants the digest to get it from > the " managing page. " > > Been really busy between working on the new book (hoping to be > essentially done in two or three weeks) and even though I've taken the > month off of work, it seems I'm busier than ever. Hahah. I cut down my working hours for writing, but it seems those hours do get filled up quickly, don't they? I can hardly wait to see the new book! Hurry, finish it! > > How is the " Horror Story " book coming? Its going very well. The more stories that come in, the more sure I am that this is the right thing to do. I'll get a first draft out much earlier than I thought. Best, http:www.zinezone.com/users/fransway ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2000 Report Share Posted October 31, 2000 Poly - I WAS given progesterone after the estrogen. Gwen - I am very happy for you about your likelihood of your starting the IVF process. I guess however, that I am overly cautious in saying the following though. We have all been so obsessed about our linings measurements (maybe we shouldn't be???!!!) and you have not as of yet had yours even measured; however your dr. wants to move ahead IMMEDIATELY with IVF? I guess I don't understand why he wants to move so fast if your lining isn't optimal for implantation and carrying the embryo to term. Isn't it riskier for you in terms of miscarriage/ and placenta accreta? Or would he (hopefully) 1st get your lining to what he feels is an " optimal " thickness and then proceed? Good luck with all of it; just be careful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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