Guest guest Posted June 22, 1998 Report Share Posted June 22, 1998 In a message dated 98-06-22 21:57:05 EDT, you write: << Hello, I have just joined the list and wanted to say a bit about how I got here and why. I have tried 12 step groups over and over, and something just doesn't sit right. I couldn't put my finger on it, yet I know that there are people who have been helped by them. My experience has been that the less " program " talk and material used, and the more actual caring of people sharing their thoughts and feelings, the better. The places where lots of slogans and emphasis on " steps " were going on-well, I was usually out of there and not coming back. I would have the mixed feeling that I SHOULD somehow be able to do these steps, to want to do them. But something in me resists, and it just doesn't feel right. Some of what they say has helped me. I think that the best group I ever went to was one for Incest Survivors, and that one didn't use the " Big Book " (oh I hate that phrase-don't really know why), but another book, concentrated on building our self esteem by saying positive affirmations....and I had to ask myself, well, wasn't this just really a support group with caring people helping each other? I think just getting a hug from someone is enough to make my day, anyway. And there are a lot of other very lonely scared people out there who feel the same. Anyway, I know that some groups work for some people, but I just can't take having to say that I'm a " compulsive overeater " anymore. I want that phrase out of my head. And maybe if I told myself that many times that I was a person who was in tune with my body's needs, I'd change my habits. Sometimes I think that a person without any eating disorder at all would develop one if every day for months at a time, they said their name, and then defined who they were by saying that they were a " compulsive overeater. " Thanks from Emy glow@... >> Hi Emy, Welcome to the 12 step free zone. I spent a lot of years sitting in meetings and saying over and over that I was an addict, and I think you make an excellent point. That may have been something I needed to get through my head when I was still using and not able to figure out why everything in my life was turned upside down, but I don't know that brandishing that label around after I stopped was the greatest thing on earth for me. I am not sure that I even realized that my life continued to revolve around drugs for years after I got clean until I started going to school. Between school and work, there was little time to spend in meetings. I started socializing with other returning students at the college, and little by little I started to feel the effects of a life that was not ruled by drugs. It is funny that drugs still had so much power even when I was not doing them.....but I think it is for just the reason you mentioned--repeating over and over that *I am an addict*. Hard not to think of yourself in another light when you remind yourself constantly. I haven't introduced myself that way since last fall.....It is work for me to not think of myself as an addict, just as it was for me to think of myself that way intitially. It was my identity for a long while, and changing the message takes time. Writing stuff like this helps. Thanks for the post.....and once again, welcome. Bette C. ---- Read this list on the Web at http://www.FindMail.com/list/12-step-free/ To unsubscribe, email to 12-step-free-unsubscribe@... To subscribe, email to 12-step-free-subscribe@... -- Start a FREE E-Mail List at http://makelist.com ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 1998 Report Share Posted June 22, 1998 > Hello, > I have just joined the list and wanted to say a bit about how > I got here and why. > <snip> > My experience has been that the less " program " talk and > material used, and the more actual caring of people sharing > their thoughts and feelings, the better. ><snip> > Sometimes I think that a person without any eating disorder > at all would develop one if every day for months at a time, > they said their name, and then defined who they were by saying > that they were a " compulsive overeater. " > > > Thanks from Emy > glow@... I have wondered exactly the same thing about AA, tho with a sort of different spin -- how is it possible to not drink if you are spending most of your spare time obsessing about alcohol? And the point about people sharing their feelings and caring is well-taken. One of the weirdest things to me, and the most off-putting about AA, was that people never had conversations! Instead of sitting down and batting a topic around, we all went around in a circle. Nobody responded to anyone, and even tho there was a topic, it was sort of addressed in a vacuum! Are there any places outside of 12-step rooms where this takes place? Plus, before and after the meetings, no one had conversations either! " My husband just sued me for divorce " -- " This too shall pass. " " My teacher says I have to sleep with him to get a passing grade " -- " You're powerless. " (No kidding, I actually heard this once.) " My house was just broken into and the police refuse to come " -- " Wanna go to a meeting? " (NO, YOU IDIOT, I WANT A PLACE TO SPEND THE NIGHT!) How any of this is conducive to mental health is beyond me. Kayleigh ----- Original Message: http://www.findmail.com/list/12-step-free/?start=117 Start a FREE e-mail list at http://www.FindMail.com/ ---- Read this list on the Web at http://www.FindMail.com/list/12-step-free/ To unsubscribe, email to 12-step-free-unsubscribe@... To subscribe, email to 12-step-free-subscribe@... -- Start a FREE E-Mail List at http://makelist.com ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 1998 Report Share Posted June 22, 1998 Yo! Welcome, Emy. I used to be one of those once, and I called myself a " compulsive overeater " for a while. But I haven't been one of those for years now. I also used to call myself an " addict " and some other stuff too, even when I hadn't done that stuff for years. Now I'm just a human being like everyone else, but some things I'm a bit more careful with, and some things I stay away from! Looking forward to hearing more from you. Joe B. At 19:00 22/06/98 -0700, you wrote: >Hello, > I have just joined the list and wanted to say a bit about how >I got here and why. > I have tried 12 step groups over and over, and something just >doesn't sit right. I couldn't put my finger on it, yet I know that >there are people who have been helped by them. > My experience has been that the less " program " talk and >material used, and the more actual caring of people sharing >their thoughts and feelings, the better. > The places where lots of slogans and emphasis on " steps " >were going on-well, I was usually out of there and not coming >back. > I would have the mixed feeling that I SHOULD somehow be >able to do these steps, to want to do them. But something in >me resists, and it just doesn't feel right. > Some of what they say has helped me. I think that the best >group I ever went to was one for Incest Survivors, and that >one didn't use the " Big Book " (oh I hate that phrase-don't really >know why), but another book, concentrated on building our >self esteem by saying positive affirmations....and I had to ask >myself, well, wasn't this just really a support group with >caring people helping each other? I think just getting a hug from >someone is enough to make my day, anyway. And there are a >lot of other very lonely scared people out there who feel the >same. > Anyway, I know that some groups work for some people, >but I just can't take having to say that I'm a " compulsive >overeater " anymore. I want that phrase out of my head. And >maybe if I told myself that many times that I was a person who >was in tune with my body's needs, I'd change my habits. > Sometimes I think that a person without any eating disorder >at all would develop one if every day for months at a time, >they said their name, and then defined who they were by saying >that they were a " compulsive overeater. " > > >Thanks from Emy >glow@... > > > > > >---- >Read this list on the Web at http://www.FindMail.com/list/12-step-free/ >To unsubscribe, email to 12-step-free-unsubscribe@... >To subscribe, email to 12-step-free-subscribe@... >-- >Start a FREE E-Mail List at http://makelist.com ! > > Joe Berenbaum ---- Read this list on the Web at http://www.FindMail.com/list/12-step-free/ To unsubscribe, email to 12-step-free-unsubscribe@... To subscribe, email to 12-step-free-subscribe@... -- Start a FREE E-Mail List at http://makelist.com ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 1998 Report Share Posted June 23, 1998 Thanks again for the welcome. I feel vaguely like I am betraying people I know who are in 12 step groups, especially one friend who seems to be very healthy emotionally. But then, I'm not telling her what is best for her to do. I am only going where I feel I need to. I would not tell her to stop what is working for her-and, conversely, I don't think she'd tell me to stay in what was NOT working for me. I was just on a 12 step mailing list, and in fact only unsubscribed today. I liked the people, and the caring, the sharing. But, once again, here came some program stuff...including the phrase " terminal uniqueness " . I can't take that! What a terrible concept. Again, with scary implications. I am a religious person, and once somebody, a very loving person usually, said that people who came " into program " with a religious background sometimes had more trouble. Well, that doesn't seem right either. My beliefs are sacred to me, and I did not lose them there. To me a person's uniqueness is a beautiful thing. I would get such mixed messages from all these things......and then there is the message, repeated over and over, that no one else can help you the way that they can. It is stated so many times, in so many ways, and it just isn't so. I'm sorting out how to keep the good, and let go of the bad...... It's nice to talk to people who know what it's like! And not have to fear being sent a " quote " from the " Big Book " Thanks from Emy glow@... JUFECO@... wrote: > In a message dated 98-06-23 00:58:55 EDT, you write: > > << > and over that *I am an addict*. Hard not to think of yourself in another > light > when you remind yourself constantly. I haven't introduced myself that way > since last fall.....It is work for me to not think of myself as an addict, > just as it was for me to think of myself that way intitially. It was my > identity for a long while, and changing the message takes time. Writing stuff > like this helps. >> > > Just yesterday my husband said to me in a conversation, " your a drug addict " > instantly I replied " I'm not an addict, I haven't done drugs in a long time " . > It was great to have that roll off my tongue with having to think about it. > > When I continued to label myself a drug addict and whenever I was in the > presence of influential people or people of stature in the community, I could > not forget I was a drug addict, therefore feeling less than. Today I feel more > a part of my community than ever, and I have enough self-esteem to meet these > people face to face, knowing I have something to contribute. > > I also began my break from 12 step recovery when I returned to school and > began meeting people who did not obsess over something they used to do. > Discovered a whole new world and it is very exciting to me. > > Welcome Emy I think you'll find some very friendly people here. > > Judie:) > > ---- Read this list on the Web at http://www.FindMail.com/list/12-step-free/ To unsubscribe, email to 12-step-free-unsubscribe@... To subscribe, email to 12-step-free-subscribe@... -- Start a FREE E-Mail List at http://makelist.com ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 1998 Report Share Posted June 23, 1998 In a message dated 98-06-23 05:19:12 EDT, you write: << Thanks again for the welcome. I feel vaguely like I am betraying people I know who are in 12 step groups, especially one friend who seems to be very healthy emotionally. But then, I'm not telling her what is best for her to do. I am only going where I feel I need to. I would not tell her to stop what is working for her-and, conversely, I don't think she'd tell me to stay in what was NOT working for me. I was just on a 12 step mailing list, and in fact only unsubscribed today. I liked the people, and the caring, the sharing. But, once again, here came some program stuff...including the phrase " terminal uniqueness " . I can't take that! What a terrible concept. Again, with scary implications. I am a religious person, and once somebody, a very loving person usually, said that people who came " into program " with a religious background sometimes had more trouble. Well, that doesn't seem right either. My beliefs are sacred to me, and I did not lose them there. To me a person's uniqueness is a beautiful thing. I would get such mixed messages from all these things......and then there is the message, repeated over and over, that no one else can help you the way that they can. It is stated so many times, in so many ways, and it just isn't so. I'm sorting out how to keep the good, and let go of the bad...... It's nice to talk to people who know what it's like! And not have to fear being sent a " quote " from the " Big Book " Thanks from Emy glow@... >> When I actually made a decision to no longer afiliate myself with NA, I felt disloyal. The first time I came across some posts on araa that were titled Silly Slogan and Other Sayings, I watched as the entire NG were wacko accusing this person of being an RR and such. I had no clue what they were talking about. I started doing websearches and coming upon information on these non-12 step methods of recovery. I was intreagued, but part of me felt like a bad kid who had happened upon a *dirty* magazine that I knew I wasn't supposed to have. So I tucked it back away and continued to try to be a good little stepper--something I had been burnt out on for some time already. The next time the crossposting started, I began to actually have a dialogue with one of people that was presenting information on 12 coercion in prisons. The biggest influence, though, was the behavior of arna regulars--the lack of recognition for religious freedoms, the beligerance toward new ideas and the namecalling rather than discussion. It all was a real turnoff, and not at all uncommon from the closed mindedness I had seen from many groupers in many meetings where the dogma was challenged. I read Ken's book, and later told him that If I had not experienced the last year in 12 step meetings as I did, I would have called him a liar. I knew his observations were not a lot different from mine. My trasition has been a slow one; I did not eagerly jump right into 12 step recovery, and I have taken my time for this change as well. This seems my way of doing such things--Sort of like the *tortoise*...slow but sure. Most of my friends that are in 12 step recovery have not even thought twice about what I am doing. They are friends and that is just the way that is. On arna, where I had been posting as a 12 step member, a good many of them think that I am fucked up and crazy. As I look at their behavior lately, I see there is no real reason to be concerned what any of them think, mainly because I think they are pretty fucked up and off their rocker. As far as steppers around here that I am not close with....they probably don't know. I feel no need to make public announcements, and I just don't travel in the same circles as they do. If I run into someone and they ask where I hjave been, I will probably say something flip like--not in meetings, that's for sure. I don't feel disloyal any longer; that was a part of the indoctrination. I am far enough away from that for it not to be a concern any longer. I recently posted the series Silly Slogans and Other Sayings on the arf12s NG again. You may still be able to find it there on your newsreader. If not and you would like to have it, email me and I will send it out to you. It is a lengthy essay about all those sayings that get tossed around in the fellowship. It was written by someone who is a member of AA and NA. Although he is a stepper, he does think that certain things merit challenge. I liked what someone said on this thread about sitting in circles talking and answering heartfelt discussion with a slogan. It all seems so bizarre when you see it described in writing. It is not a normal way of interacting with people. It is stiff, contrived, and lacks real or genuine emotion. Well, I have been on a roll here for a while, and I need to get some things done around here. Emy, you bring up some good topics for discussion.....Keep it up! Take Care, Bette ---- Read this list on the Web at http://www.FindMail.com/list/12-step-free/ To unsubscribe, email to 12-step-free-unsubscribe@... To subscribe, email to 12-step-free-subscribe@... -- Start a FREE E-Mail List at http://makelist.com ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 1998 Report Share Posted June 23, 1998 In message writes >Thanks again for the welcome. > I feel vaguely like I am betraying people I know who are in >12 step groups, especially one friend who seems to be very >healthy emotionally. But then, I'm not telling her what is best >for her to do. I am only going where I feel I need to. Hi Emy, me to, haven't been to a meeting for some time but have used my chronic pain as an excuse. What am I frightened of? Them thinking that this is just an excuse for a drink? Well yes they probably will because believing that I could make it without AA would frighten the sh*t out of them. So what, they can think what they like cause I ain't gonna drink, period. There are some really nice people in my home group that I will miss but my 2 sponsers are actually supporting me in my decision, much to my suprise and there are a couple of people who will remain friends no matter what, that feels really good. Since I stopped going to meetings and constantly thinking about not drinking everyday I feel a huge burdon has been removed from me and I feel more at peace with myself. > I was just on a 12 step mailing list, and in fact only unsubscribed >today. I liked the people, and the caring, the sharing. But, once again, >here came some program stuff...including the phrase " terminal uniqueness " . Me too but I haven't yet unsubbed, these people have been so nice to me that I feel like I am betraying them but like you, I can't bear to get anymore BB quotes:-( I will get the courage up today to unsub!! > I'm sorting out how to keep the good, and let go of the bad...... > It's nice to talk to people who know what it's like! > And not have to fear being sent a " quote " from the " Big Book " I am really glad that this list is here too. I am so glad that I wrote to when the cross posting started, thankyou , you opened my eyes to so much. Glad you're here Emy. -- M Bristol England ICQ#7099782 ---- Read this list on the Web at http://www.FindMail.com/list/12-step-free/ To unsubscribe, email to 12-step-free-unsubscribe@... To subscribe, email to 12-step-free-subscribe@... -- Start a FREE E-Mail List at http://makelist.com ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 1998 Report Share Posted June 23, 1998 wrote: > <snip> > > Hi Emy, me to, haven't been to a meeting for some time but have used my > chronic pain as an excuse. What am I frightened of? Them thinking that > this is just an excuse for a drink? Well yes they probably will because > believing that I could make it without AA would frighten the sh*t out of > them. So what, they can think what they like cause I ain't gonna drink, > period. I think you're right-it scares a lot of them. But why? It's like a family that doesn't want to let an individual grow and leave the nest. Like a dysfunctional family somehow. > There are some really nice people in my home group that I will > miss but my 2 sponsers are actually supporting me in my decision, much > to my suprise and there are a couple of people who will remain friends > no matter what, that feels really good. Since I stopped going to > meetings and constantly thinking about not drinking everyday I feel a > huge burdon has been removed from me and I feel more at peace with > myself. > That is what just happened to me! To my surprise, I felt this burdonlift from my shoulders this morning, and I knew it was from seperating from O.A. I didn't expect it, didn't even know the burdon was there! > Me too but I haven't yet unsubbed, these people have been so nice to me > that I feel like I am betraying them but like you, I can't bear to get > anymore BB quotes:-( I will get the courage up today to unsub!! > The last thing I read on the list I unsubbed from was " Thoughts forToday " , and this time, instead of some helpful quote from someone, or thoughtful idea, there was " The Promises " , ugh, and I just couldn't stomack it. > I am really glad that this list is here too. I am so glad that I wrote > to when the cross posting started, thankyou , you opened > my eyes to so much. > I'm glad this list is here too! If you don't mind my asking, did this used to be set up so that people couldn't respond to each other's comments? I ask because you mention cross posting starting. > Glad you're here Emy. > > > -- > Thanks ! From Emy glow@... ---- Read this list on the Web at http://www.FindMail.com/list/12-step-free/ To unsubscribe, email to 12-step-free-unsubscribe@... To subscribe, email to 12-step-free-subscribe@... -- Start a FREE E-Mail List at http://makelist.com ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 1998 Report Share Posted June 23, 1998 At 02:03 23/06/98 -0700, you wrote: >Thanks again for the welcome. > I feel vaguely like I am betraying people I know who are in >12 step groups, especially one friend who seems to be very >healthy emotionally. But then, I'm not telling her what is best >for her to do. I am only going where I feel I need to. > I would not tell her to stop what is working for her-and, >conversely, I don't think she'd tell me to stay in what was NOT >working for me. It can be quite insidious, this betrayal and loyalty stuff. If you look at addiction as a disease- for the sake of simplicity lets assume for a moment that's what it is- then if you found that the chemotherapy you were having wasn't helping you and you wanted to truy something else, or even if you just wanted to see another doctor and get a second professional opinion- would the issue of loyalty come up- loyalty to whatever friends you have already made in the clinic? Betrayal? How could you betray those people? It sounds ridiculous, doesn't it. Common sense would suggest that you really need to do what you feel is best for you. I think the issue of loyalty comes up precisely because traditional recovery philosophy is built on a nest of unstable and irrational beliefs. My theory about 12 step beliefs is that somewhere in our hearts people know they are taking on that stuff because they are convinced, up to a point, that in order for the thing to work, they have to. In other words, they don't _really_ believe it, deep down. That is why people get upset when you challenge those ideas. If someone leaves the program and does well, it shows immediately that at least some of what they believe isn't true, or at least isn't as generally true as many 12 steppers would prefer to think. Thus loyalty to the group becomes an issue. It is a cult thing really. > I was just on a 12 step mailing list, and in fact only unsubscribed >today. I liked the people, and the caring, the sharing. But, once again, >here came some program stuff...including the phrase " terminal uniqueness " . The way I look at this is- what price am I willing to pay for friendship? The caring and sharing is not the sole province of the 12 step environments. And the price for it can be that you are given platitudes as your ongoing conditioning. In other words, yes, you can share and have cyber-hugs and so on, but they will want to also remind you (or some of them will) of what you are supposed to believe in- your daily lesson. The quotes and one-liners are thought of as spiritual truths and thus universally applicable. They are neither! I have a number of friends who are NA members and who still go to meetings. None of them quote the book at me or repeat one-liners. It isn't that they would do so if they thought I would accept it- they are not book-quoting platitude-uttering people! > I can't take that! What a terrible concept. Again, with scary implications. The concept of terminal uniqueness is scary indeed. The idea is that to be a separate individual can kill you, and for your survival you need to surrender to group-think, to think as you are told to and to be, as far as you can, the same as everybody else, and to think of yourself not as yourself, but as " just another addict " . It is preposterous to think that your survival depends on surrender of the self. If anything, it is far more likely to be the other way round. >I am a religious person, and once somebody, a very loving person usually, >said that people who came " into program " with a religious background >sometimes had more trouble. Well, that doesn't seem right either. My >beliefs>are sacred to me, and I did not lose them there. It may actually be true that people who already have a religious background have more trouble accepting the 12 step philosophy. If you have some reasonably evolved personal religious belief system, it will not sit so well when people who obviously have not given the matter very much thought tell you exactly what to believe. > To me a person's uniqueness is a beautiful thing. It is not only beautiful- the uniqueness IS the person. To snuff out uniqueness is to try to snuff out people. > I would get such mixed messages from all these things......and then there >is the message, repeated over and over, that no one else can help you the >way that they can. It is stated so many times, in so many ways, and it just >isn't so. Well quite. > I'm sorting out how to keep the good, and let go of the bad...... > It's nice to talk to people who know what it's like! > And not have to fear being sent a " quote " from the " Big Book " >Thanks from Emy >glow@... Joe Berenbaum ---- Read this list on the Web at http://www.FindMail.com/list/12-step-free/ To unsubscribe, email to 12-step-free-unsubscribe@... To subscribe, email to 12-step-free-subscribe@... -- Start a FREE E-Mail List at http://makelist.com ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 1998 Report Share Posted June 23, 1998 > To me a person's uniqueness is a beautiful thing. It is not only beautiful- the uniqueness IS the person. To snuff out uniqueness is to try to snuff out people. Hi Joe, everybody. Welcome to Emy. Joe, I love the above quote. Care if I clip it and use it as a sig file sometimes? You know, I've been thinking more and more about what you said concerning moderating the newsgroup. Its made alot of sense all along, but I'm beginning to think maybe that is the answer. I don't think we'd be interferring with freedom of speech, depending on the type of moderation we allowed. Which is no moderation, until folks like the ones there now come in and deliberately use their free speech privileges to stomp all over others and make the newsgroup nearly impossible to use effectively, even with a killfile. These people will not be limited in their speech. They can always take posts they want to make fun of, drag them to their own newsgroups, and do it there. We would only be limiting the occassional nutball's ability to make the newsgroup unusable for new people. You know, I think now I would support a moderated group, depending, of course, on the moderator. Has anyone else changed their minds? Kim? Bette? None of it would mean we couldn't still crosspost, or go to other groups and post, plus, they could come to arf also, unless it started to become ridiculous, as it is now. Sincerely, REbecca ---- Read this list on the Web at http://www.FindMail.com/list/12-step-free/ To unsubscribe, email to 12-step-free-unsubscribe@... To subscribe, email to 12-step-free-subscribe@... -- Start a FREE E-Mail List at http://makelist.com ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 1998 Report Share Posted June 23, 1998 > I'm glad this list is here too! If you don't mind my asking, did this used >to be set up so that people >couldn't respond to each other's comments? I ask because you mention >cross posting starting. No sorry Emy, I was referring to the cross posting that was going on between araa and arf12s. I suddenly realised that the cross posts were making terrific sense and just had to know more. By the way Emy, I too have an eating disorder but thankfull didn't seek help via a 12step program!! -- M Bristol England ICQ#7099782 ---- Read this list on the Web at http://www.FindMail.com/list/12-step-free/ To unsubscribe, email to 12-step-free-unsubscribe@... To subscribe, email to 12-step-free-subscribe@... -- Start a FREE E-Mail List at http://makelist.com ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 1998 Report Share Posted June 23, 1998 In message , Jack Keilman writes >You know, I think now I would support a moderated group, depending, of course, >on the >moderator. Has anyone else changed their minds? Kim? Bette? None of it would >mean we >couldn't still crosspost, or go to other groups and post, plus, they could come >to arf also, unless >it started to become ridiculous, as it is now. > >Sincerely, > >REbecca , I don't have a clue what a moderated newgroup is, can you explain. I do know that I hate the newgroup with these awful trolls in. I don't like to write as I don't want to be flamed, I also don't want the newgroup to die because of them. -- M Bristol England ICQ#7099782 ---- Read this list on the Web at http://www.FindMail.com/list/12-step-free/ To unsubscribe, email to 12-step-free-unsubscribe@... To subscribe, email to 12-step-free-subscribe@... -- Start a FREE E-Mail List at http://makelist.com ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 1998 Report Share Posted June 23, 1998 > You know, I've been thinking more and more about what you said concerning moderating the > newsgroup. Its made alot of sense all along, but I'm beginning to think maybe that is the > answer. I don't think we'd be interferring with freedom of speech, depending on the type > of moderation we allowed. Which is no moderation, until folks like the ones there now > come in and deliberately use their free speech privileges to stomp all over others and make > the newsgroup nearly impossible to use effectively, even with a killfile. > > These people will not be limited in their speech. They can always take posts they want to > make fun of, drag them to their own newsgroups, and do it there. We would only be limiting the > occassional nutball's ability to make the newsgroup unusable for new people. > > You know, I think now I would support a moderated group, depending, of course, on the > moderator. Has anyone else changed their minds? Kim? Bette? None of it would mean we > couldn't still crosspost, or go to other groups and post, plus, they could come to arf also, unless > it started to become ridiculous, as it is now. > > Sincerely, > > REbecca > I firmly believe the group should be moderated, especially in light of what has happened at arf12s. There's a big difference between moderation and censorship. Pick someone who'll give the broadest possible definition to the topic and still won't let in the offensive stuff, and I don't think any reasonable person will have cause to complain (underline " reasonable " ). I'm really disappointed that arf12s has been ruined, and I'm hoping that maybe the group can be resurrected in the future. I hope we've all learned the lesson that we permitted it to happen by playing the game with them. It's the kind of game you can only win if you refuse to play. Kayleigh ----- Original Message: http://www.findmail.com/list/12-step-free/?start=130 Start a FREE e-mail list at http://www.FindMail.com/ ---- Read this list on the Web at http://www.FindMail.com/list/12-step-free/ To unsubscribe, email to 12-step-free-unsubscribe@... To subscribe, email to 12-step-free-subscribe@... -- Start a FREE E-Mail List at http://makelist.com ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 1998 Report Share Posted June 23, 1998 At 13:21 23/06/98 -0700, you wrote: > >> To me a person's uniqueness is a beautiful thing. > >It is not only beautiful- the uniqueness IS the person. To snuff out >uniqueness is to try to snuff out people. > >Hi Joe, everybody. Welcome to Emy. > >Joe, I love the above quote. Care if I clip it and use it as a sig file sometimes? >REbecca - I hereby grant you unlimited lifetime (yours) use of the above expression in any non-commercial application. ;-) BTW - re our earlier discussion about you using NA speaker tapes- I have found several NA World Convention tapes that I would be happy to donate to you for post-mortem, anatomy exhibits and vivsection purposes in the interests of getting the word out about there being other ways to recover. I need to know how many you want- say two or four or whatever- and I need a snailmail address to send them to. Security protocol #19a; I suggest that you send me your address by personal email. Joe Berenbaum ---- Read this list on the Web at http://www.FindMail.com/list/12-step-free/ To unsubscribe, email to 12-step-free-unsubscribe@... To subscribe, email to 12-step-free-subscribe@... -- Start a FREE E-Mail List at http://makelist.com ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2000 Report Share Posted July 26, 2000 Hello Vicky, My name is Tina and I am so sorry to hear about what you have gone through. I am sure you will be able to obtain some very useful information from the ladies of this group. You will also find the support you will need. Tina ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ New member > Hi, my name is Vicky. I have not posted my story yet and just >recently became a member. So here it is. > I am 28 years old. I live in Florida. I have had 4 pregnancies. I >lost all of them for several reasons, including ruptured ectopic >pregnancy and incompetent cervix. The last pregnancy 2 and 1/2 yrs >ago I was 16 weeks pregnant and my membranes prolapsed. There was >nothing they could do, and I lost the baby. My husband and I were >devastated. They did a d & c at the time. I never had a period again. >As I was on the pill, the doctors never suspected anything wrong. I >have endiometriosis and was taking the pill to help with that until I >was ready again. We decided to start trying in January. I continued >to worry about the cessation of my periods and when the doctor >started to worry about my concern, they did a lot of tests. The HSG >could not be done as they couldn't penetrate though my cervix. That's >when it was decided that I probably had Asherman's. What a shock to >learn of something like this, another obstacle! 2 weeks ago I had a >laparoscopy and hysteroscopy. They found severe Ashermans, fibrotic >tissue, a lot of scarring, and multiple adhesions. Though I was >thankful to learn that the endiometriosis cleared up with all the >medicines I have been taking over the years, it was devasting again >to learn that my possibility of becomeing pregnant again has >decreased to a very low percentage. I am taking premarin in hopes >that it will regrow some good endometrial tissue. I have a little >hope left, but I didn't know where to turn. I hope one day to have >children, whether they are mine or adopted. This type of thing is >absolutely terrible. It's very hard to deal with, and my heart goes >out to all those affected. I hope to one day post a message on here >filled with hope for everyone. Thanks for listening. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Missing old school friends? Find them here: >http://click./1/7079/5/_/673741/_/964298275/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2000 Report Share Posted August 8, 2000 Dear Jody, I'm so sorry you've had to go through all of this, as you can imagine most of us share similiar stories and have found that finding a good doctor is very important. My reproductive endocrinologist is in Philadelphia, Dr. Gocial, part of Dr. Corson's group and he is wonderful. I think you should call his group and find out who they recommend in NYC. His number is . I would also recommend going to the PubMed site on the internet and reading all you can about Asherman's and treatment options. You'll also get a lot of that information thru the women on this site. I'm at the point where we've chosen to stop all treatment because of the risk of catastophic bleeding at delivery (if a pregnancy could get that far) but many of the ladies are still undergoing treatment and can let you know options etc. We have a wonderful group and I think you'll find the support you need here. Jody Floegel wrote: > Hello everyone! > > My name is Jody and I am a new member to this group. I apologize to Poly as > she is going to have the pleasure of hearing my story twice. > > First of all, I just want to say that I truly feel for all of you as you are > going through the same things that I am going through. A lot of the time I > feel totally overwhelmed by it all, however I do my best to keep things in > perspective (all though it is not easy). > > I am thirty years old. I had a miscarriage at 10 weeks in December of 1998. > I got pregnant again in April of 1999. I spent 6 weeks of that pregnancy on > bed rest with placenta previa. At 6 1/2 months I delivered a still born > little boy. I have no other children. I had a retained placenta with my > delivery and seven hours after I delivered my son the doctors finally did a > D & C to remove the placenta. Of course they didn't get all of the placenta > so within two days, I was back in the hospital with an infections of my > uterine lining. I'm sure this sounds familiar. I had to have a second D & C > to remove the tissue that was left in my uterus. In all, I spent 9 days in > the hospital on IV antibiotics after I was readmitted. Of course my doctors > assured me that the infection would not cause any damage. > > Anyway, the doctors were never able to find out why I lost the baby. I have > since switched doctors and gone through the normal medications for people > who don't get their periods. In March I had a HSP which showed scar tissue. > In April I had a hysteroscopy and a laparoscopy to remove the scar tissue > and see what was there, at which time I was diagnosised with Asherman's. > The doctor left a balloon cathedar in for 7 days, put me on 21 days of > estrogen and 7 days of progestine and still nothing. I had a repeat HSP in > April and the dye could not even enter my uterus as there was some sort of > total blockage. > > I am now in the process of having consults with two new doctors about my > options. I know I need a new surgery but the question is who is the best > person to do it? How long should the cathedar stay in? Is there a better > alternative to the cathedar? Is there a better medication than estrogen to > promote the growth of the lining of my uterus after the surgery? > > Do any of you know the answers to these questions? I live in the New York > area. Can any of you recommend a doctor for me to see? Do any of you know > of anyone who has successfully overcome this type of problem? > > Sorry to go on and on. I'm sure you have already been over all of this > before. I also forgot to mention that my husband and I are also looking > into adoption at this point as I know my chances of conceiving aren't very > good. However, I am willing to try whatever it takes to have a chance. > > Thanks for listening. Good luck to all of you. I'll keep you in my > prayers. Also, I would love to help if you can think of a way to make the > medical community more aware of this problem. > > Jody > > __________________________________________________________________ > Get Verizon Online DSL for $39.95 and get 30 days of free service! > http://www.bellatlantic.net/promos/p2banet.html > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2000 Report Share Posted September 24, 2000 Pirie, Hello and welcome to our support group. I am sorry to hear of your recent miscarriage. Can I ask you what exactly do you mean by HSG test coming out positive? How did your doctor or you suspect you may have Ashermans? I say that because you do have periods. Are they any different from your previous periods before the miscarriage? Do you know what endometrium (lining) measurement you have? I am just wondering if this doctor you are seeing really needs to remove your scar tissue. Sometimes it seems it is better to leave it alone if there is not much in there and of course if it is in the way of an open cavity. Is your doctor an RE? Please tell us what he said when you went to see him the other day. It's been a quiet weekend, as it usually is, I am sure after today, all the other girls in the group will come back from there weekend trips and give some replies. Love Poly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2000 Report Share Posted September 24, 2000 Dear Poly, I had an ectopic pregnancy in Dec.of 1998...then I had an hsg test in Dec. 1999...the report said I had a blockage in my uterus...possibly a polyp. My doctor didn't seem to think anything of it. Then I got pregnant again this past May and lost the heartbeat at 8 weeks in June. I had a D & C right after that. Now, I will say that everytime I had an ultrasound while I was pregnant, the doctors kept seeing something else in my uterus, but they thought it was just extra blood. I have been trying to get pregnant since then but to no avail. Went back to a fertility specialist and he found the blockage throgh an ultrasound and ordered another HSG. My periods were very light prior to my pregnancy..only lasted 3 days with not much blood after the first two days, then after this last D & C, my periods have been much heavier and my cycle has been lasting 5 days! Both my obgyn and fertility specialist got the results back from my latest HSG and said there was blockage in my uterus and the radiologist said it was definitely ashermans syndrome. I just had a water hyster...yesterday and the Dr. said he could se a small band of blockage on the right side up at the top and thought it would be easy to fix. He didn't say what my lining measurement was...I didn't know to ask. However, he did say from comparing the two HSG tests...the blockage has gotten larger. I hope this all makes sense! Thanks Pirie -----Original Message-----From: Poly Spyrou Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 10:37 AMTo: AshermansegroupsSubject: Re: New member Pirie, Hello and welcome to our support group. I am sorry to hear of your recent miscarriage. Can I ask you what exactly do you mean by HSG test coming out positive? How did your doctor or you suspect you may have Ashermans? I say that because you do have periods. Are they any different from your previous periods before the miscarriage? Do you know what endometrium (lining) measurement you have? I am just wondering if this doctor you are seeing really needs to remove your scar tissue. Sometimes it seems it is better to leave it alone if there is not much in there and of course if it is in the way of an open cavity. Is your doctor an RE? Please tell us what he said when you went to see him the other day. It's been a quiet weekend, as it usually is, I am sure after today, all the other girls in the group will come back from there weekend trips and give some replies. Love Poly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2000 Report Share Posted September 24, 2000 Poly, Yes, he is an RE. Dr. Foulk from Boise, Idaho. -----Original Message-----From: Poly Spyrou Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 10:37 AMTo: AshermansegroupsSubject: Re: New member Pirie, Hello and welcome to our support group. I am sorry to hear of your recent miscarriage. Can I ask you what exactly do you mean by HSG test coming out positive? How did your doctor or you suspect you may have Ashermans? I say that because you do have periods. Are they any different from your previous periods before the miscarriage? Do you know what endometrium (lining) measurement you have? I am just wondering if this doctor you are seeing really needs to remove your scar tissue. Sometimes it seems it is better to leave it alone if there is not much in there and of course if it is in the way of an open cavity. Is your doctor an RE? Please tell us what he said when you went to see him the other day. It's been a quiet weekend, as it usually is, I am sure after today, all the other girls in the group will come back from there weekend trips and give some replies. Love Poly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2000 Report Share Posted September 29, 2000 Thank you Celeste...it does help me mentally and emotionally prepare. I'll let you know when my surgery is scheduled Pirie -----Original Message-----From: celjim@... Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 5:51 PMTo: AshermansegroupsSubject: Re: New memberPirie:I assume you are having an operative hysteroscopy. It is not too bad. Everyone is different and I guess it depends on how severe the adhesions are. I was groggy for about 12 hours following the surgery from the general anesthesia and a little sore for a couple days. I was back to work two days after my surgery. I get sick from general anesthesia and was given a drug called Zofran that prevented the nausea.Hope this helps.Celeste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2000 Report Share Posted November 9, 2000 I am 32 years old and was recently diagnosed with Ashermans Syndrome. I have one son who was born prior to developing the Ashermans. I had no menstrual for two years and 3 months and after going to so many doctor, almost ready to give up, I decided to give it one more try and this time I would take my husband along with me. I explained to my doctor the reason for my visit and she said, " not to worry we'll figure it out " . So I proceeded with the routine testing and after 20 minutes in the office, she announced we were pregnant, approximately 6 to 8 weeks. However the doctor was unsure of my due date, because of my missed menstrual cycles. Concerned, I ask my doctor could this be a risky or healthy pregnancy, since I had no menstrual period in such a long time. She said , " she would watch me closely, but she felt everything would be OK " . Trusting her my concerns were dismissed and I went forward with my schedule prenatal visits. On many occasions toward the end of my pregnancy, I explained to my doctor I really hadn't felt my baby moving and many days she didn't move at all, but I suppose like most doctors, she explained " babies don't move much toward the end of the trimester " . Having already successfully completed one pregnancy I knew this was true, " but there was something different " , I explained. (Call it mother's intuition). On Dec 4, 1997 approximately 6:00 P.M., my husband and I delivered a beautiful baby girl (my little angel). However, experiencing the worst tragedy in my life she was birth stillborn, the cord was wrapped around her neck and arm. (She's now in heaven, watching over us) To make matters even worst, my doctor could not detach the placenta from my uterus and my OB/GYN spent over 8 hours trying to remove the placenta. Finally, after several attempts from several doctors, they decided to do a DNC. I stayed in the hospital 4 nights and was sent home the morning of the 5th day. Later that evening I began to experience sever cramps, they were worst than my contraction I thought. My husband called my doctor and she informed him to take me back to hospital and check myself in at once (but believe me she didn't have to tell me to do this, I was already on my way out the door). As I had already figured out, my doctor discovered there were small fractions of the placenta still inside of me. My doctor ordered me back into the hospital (for a minimum of 3 days, which turned into two weeks). Of course I wasn't sure how they would solve this problem, because certainly I thought they would not do another DNC (funny thing, I actually over heard the doctor suggesting it). After extensive testing (I felt a pin cushion), my doctor injected medicine into my veins through an I V, merely because I was too weak to take it any other way. Administering the medicine through an I V would allow it to enter into my blood stream faster, decreasing the risk of an infection and this medicine would dissolve the fractions of placenta left inside. It was found the medicine had dissolved the fractions of placenta, but unfortunately I developed an infection, and eventually I developed Pneumonia. (Believe me the story doesn't stop here) but I will because I could go on forever. To wrap up my story, although I completed my postpartum checkups, after these visits, which my condition was relatively fine and since I suffered little to no pain, I did not go back to the doctor for a year. (My experiences, left me feeling very uneasy and ofcourse I developed a lack of trust with doctors) Recently (four months ago), I decided to seek out an RE, merely due to several conditions I was experiencing. I found an RE, that counseled me of my past medical history (ordering my records from my prior doctor), ran extensive blood work and the dye test procedure. The doctor then informed me I had Ashermans Syndrome ( I really think she knew it all along, but wanted to make sure or make money. My doctor explained, there was only a small percentage of dye that had leak into my uterus and she would like to schedule me for laparoscopy and HSG to remove scar tissues. I felt very uneasy and unsure after she explained the procedure and risk, and quite frankly, I'm not sure if it was her explanation or her uneasiness of performing the procedure. Although I must admit, my mother has always advised me to avoid operations at all cause and seek other alternatives first. ( So it may be a combination of things that stopping me from going forward with the HSG - FEAR AND DISTRUST) I have been researching the procedures of HSG, and perhaps there may be a higher risk if I don't have this procedure done, but I hope my joining this group I gain more information and learn from others experiences, as well as finding out if anyone has experienced any other alternatives. Also, I recently moved to Georgia and I am seeking a doctor who is experienced with Ashermans Syndrome. Any recommendations or suggestions anyone can give me is greatly appreciated. Hoping to learn of many Success Stories. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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