No lurking anymore.

[Guest guest]

Well! Friends and others.

Actually I found this list as a consequence of a mail sent to the

Stanton Peel web site. He never answered himself. Hope he is still

alive.

About my motives for being on this list:

1. AA has attacked me. And I'm not paranoid. I know it!

2. The deeper meaning of my last name is 'soldier for rent', and I have

freedom fighters

from World War II both on my father's and mother's side.

3. AA and 12-step ideology is the road to fascism.

4. Fuck AA!!

The statements above are representative for my deeper motivations.

About my personal relation to alcohol and drugs I can only say that I'm

not drinking to much, I'm not abstaining and I'm not moderating. What

I'm doing is my own business as long as it don't hurt myself or anybody

else. So I don't want any help in these issues, and I'm not sure I can

help others. But of course I have had some experiences that could be

helpful.

My main advice is this: Don't do anything about it, don't try to see

your life as a problem, but rather as a transition. That helped me for

about 11 years ago.

This must be enough for today. My only question is: Do you communicate

out of list? I would like personal mails too.

Below this I have pasted my original mail to Stanton Peele. It may

explain the above.

Easter is crucifixion time!

Bjørn

Hello mr. Stanton Peele.

My name is Bjørn Herring. I was born in 1946 in Northern Norway, and is

no living as a psychologist in Denmark.

Address:

B.H.

Strandvejen 18

Lønstrup

9800 Hjørring

Denmark (phone ( + ) 98 96 07 47.

I have just recently become aware of your very interesting web site,

which I found on the front page of " Drug Sense " . For some

years ago ( about 1983 ) I read your book " Love and Addiction " , and it

gave me great inspiration to go on with my line of

thinking - as it had developed at that time. ( Before you read any

further, I think it is appropriate of me to say that I do not have

a lot of experience in writing english/american, though I am rather

aquainted with reading and understanding due to the fact that

almost all my textbooks at the university were american. I do of course

have a spelling control, but there will be idioms and

expressions which I am not using in the right way. )

When I yesterday read your preface to the 1991 edition of " Love and

Addiction " , I could not help feeling a kind of

resemblance to your experiences in the field of controversies in

theories on alcoholism. I did not approach alcoholism

due to any specific experience or feeling that I should help anyone

or anybody. Originally, I was a person who liked

logic, and my favorite games were Bridge, Chess and Billiards. My

approach was primarily academic, but mixed with

the idea, that this could be an area for future working. Psychology

in Denmark was heavily influenced by european

continental thinking ( in opposite to Norway, which was

anglo-saxian oriented ).

In my dissertation, my first intention was to relate theories of

behavior theory to alcoholism, of the latter I knew nothing,

but had a faint idea about some kind af physical dependency

condition. I started out in the spring of 1977, and in the

beginning it all went very good, as long as I was concentrating on

the behavioral part. But on the question of alcoholism;

I did get stuck! It was impossible to get an inner hold of the

phenomenon. What was it? The danish literature was very

chat like, and far from intellectually fulfilling. The american

literature on the other hand, was very pragmatic, but without a

drift for recognition ( in the continental mode, of course ). I

realized that I had to choose between making an end of

university studies faster, or satisfy my 'need' for recognition.

Seemingly, there was an insurmountable gap between the

notion that alcoholism was an irreversible, progressive and

chronically disease which only could be arrested and not

cured, and the disrespectful and ingenious results made by american

psychologist. I really do admire this ability of

divergent pragmatism. The european tradition is more apt to

'think' themselves out of the problems. This is, alas, a major

problem within European psychology - to much thinking. So 'Bless

America', after all.

Well, I chose my curiosity, and locked myself into the university

library for six months, reading journals on alcoholism

from the end of the 60's until 1977. After a while I discovered

that all articles could be divided in two distinct views - the

pros and cons in the debate whether alcoholism was a disease or

not!! So after discarding my first draft completely, I

arranged my work around this schism, using philosophical,

historical, anthropological, cultural theories and empirical

evidence. Still today, there haven't in my eyes been produced

better literature in Denmark on this issue since - on the

contrary.

One of my main findings was evidence for the proposition that the

difference between alcoholic and non-alcoholic

consumers of alcohol were a difference in learning, and not in

physiology. Besides that I identified the prohibition in

America as the historical basis for the disease model, and the

Oxford group movement ( Buchman) as the spiritual

mother of AA, and AA through UN in 1956 as the foundation for the

danish view of alcoholism. Actually very few in

Denmark knew anything about AA then. They did first enter the scene

after Reagan. Which in Denmark means

the first half of the 80's.

I was very proud about my dissertation with the title " Alcoholism -

medical disease or learned behavior? " So therefore I

went to one of the grand old men in the danish array of alcoholism,

C.J. Hansen, who was a respected and devoted

psychiatrist with special competence in alcoholism for a couple of

decades.

He read my work in two days, and I visited him in a very little

room with one of his employees present, a scarred former

alcoholic with unpleasant eyes. Then he told me that he agreed on

all my main conclusions and the most of my thoughts,

though there might be some minor differences in view on some

matters. " Great " , I thought. But only until he continued by

stating that if I should be so careless to cite him for his

opinion, he would call me a liar. And, as he explained to me, he

had a witness present. Coincidentally this employee totally

disagreed with my points of view. What I didn't understand,

he told me, was that the question of alcoholism was not a

scientific question, but a political question. And he meant that

the alcoholics were better off under the medical umbrella than

anything else.

After all, I had been told my hole life, that knowledge and

understanding was important for mankind. In 1978 a had been

in different learning situations for the last 26 years. I saw this

dissertation as the peak of my efforts during my hole life,

and then they told me that I was right, but that my knowledge was

unwanted. But he was actually nice, of course, giving

me that early warning. I really liked the man. Sadly he got

completely blind in his last years. He was a scientist so

devoted to the 'cause', that he felt it necessary to discard

science. In Greek mythology his blindness would have been

Nemesis' punishment for making Hybris - trying to change his

'destination in life'.

But all this was forgotten when I in august 1978 got a job as a

scientific worker in a project financed both by the state

and a treatment home called " Ringgården " ( " The Circle Farm " ). The

organization behind was the danish variant of

Y.M.C.A., they are heavily founded on the official church in

Denmark, which is ( and this is really important )

luther-evangelian. One of the main dogmas is the notion that it is

impossible to earn your salvation through good deeds

and thoughts. Therefore they saw their work as more a samatarian

rather than a missionarian effort. In the midst 30's this

church had been i some serious fights with the Oxford group

movement, as one conservative lutheran theologian (N.H.

Søe) compared with the german church which submitted the Nazi

ideology. I noticed though, that some of the Y.M.C.A.

professionals have had family members from the former generation

active in the Oxford group movement. In danish

history it is interesting to note, that the temperance movement was

strong where the church was weak, and that the

Oxford group movement also was strong where the church was weak. As

you probably know, Bill W., the founder of

AA was first saved by the Oxford group movement. Mainly he enlarged

their 5 (or was it 4 ) steps into the twelve steps.

" Ringgården " had been founded in 1972, and a Danish physician that

had been treated by AA in USA shortened the

twelve steps into 4 : 1. Recognition, 2. Confession, 3. Conversion

and 4. Use. The concept of denial was heavily used in

explaining anything, and they relied on the use of disulfiram ( a

danish invention with the trade mark Antabus, of the

words 'anti' and 'abuse'). " Ringgården " was then acknowledged as

the best treatment home in Denmark at that time.

Today they have extended their activity to concern gamblers as

well, but without abstinence as a goal. The leader of

" Ringgården " was not heavily tied to the AA ideology, so when other

winds were blowing in the 70's, he thought it could

be convenient to hire professionals like psychologists. Fanny

Duckert was from Norway connected with development of

the institution for some time, years ago. Another aspect was

likewise disturbing. The staff had this strong feeling that it

was no connection between success in therapy and later outcome. In

other words, something was working in their

treatment, but it was not what they thought. It was therefore

natural, that they wanted to know more about which factors

that made their treatment so good compared to others. Two years

later, after huge piles of statistics and intensive

interviews with former patients I found 'the secret' of

" Ringgården " . My research was a so-called qualitative research, but

also had a statistical division combined with the qualitative

results. Well, first of all, 'the secret' was, that there was no

secret. It was the daily life in nice and friendly surroundings,

with outdoor working, preparing food, group meetings and

contact with the rest of the community without alcohol that gave

the patients another and different experience of

themselves and their human surroundings. Their feeling of worth

become better, and their self confidence elevated. They

got another try! On the basis of the journals of those I

interviewed I found another very interesting result, but it didn't

show in the final report, because I couldn't explain it, and it

would have been controversial. Of course I was had a

special interest in people who had a controlled relation to

alcohol, and I found that there was a remarkable significant

relation between alcohol diagnosis and ability to handle alcohol.

Those with addictive diagnosis were far better in

controlling their drinking than those with the less severe alcohol

diagnosis, as excessive (and neurotic) drinking. Now, I

think, it is in nice concordance with the findings of Vaillant in

" The Natural History of Alcoholism " . By the way, like you I

have been wondering over the connection between mr. Vaillants

findings and his conclusions. One should think the

Harvard University would held a more convincing standard.

After the report I was engaged as a psychologist on " Ringgården " ,

but my dissatisfaction with the abstinence treatment

goals, and the forced an extensive use of disulfiram, grew. I had

therefore little hesitation when I got the possibility to

enter a research project in Copenhagen (capital of Denmark). My job

was to construct and effectuate a treatment based

on the attendees own wishes to control their drinking. I was not

the leader of the project, but the only with experience

both in the literature and in treatment practice. Together with a

newly graduated female psychologist, Grethe Bruun

Jensen I was preparing the concept in he autumn of 1982. Among

other preparations we hired Fanny Duckert for a

week-end seminar, and we were talking with from Albuquerque.

I was eager to hear from his experiences from

the USA, but what he told was not uplifting. After Reagan, he told

us, " The Moral Majority " had threatened universities

experimenting with controlled drinking with a possible withdrawal

of economic support by campaigning sponsors with

the notion that the university was conducting dangerous research

against american values and all that crap. I had earlier (

in 1980 ) attended an AA congress for professionals and AA members

in Bath, England. They were very optimistic for

their future success in Europe - starting with Scandinavia. I have

never in my whole life ever experienced a 'scientific'

congress in such a religious manner. Every time somebody mentioned

'the disease concept', the audience was

applauding. I didn't become very popular! Later I have been

thinking that it was a little odd, that everybody in the final

congress discussion got videotaped. I haven't seen it later either,

but it may well be an american habit. Anyway, I tried to

warn my professional colleagues that AA would come for Denmark in

due time - six years, I thought. They only laughed

at me, told me that I was so fascinated by my own dissertation that

I was seeing ghosts. Mr. and the AA congress

in combination worried me because I knew that danish politics on

alcoholism were imported in disguise from USA. But I

found some kind of relief in knowing that Denmark was known to (

contrary to Norway, Sweden, Island and Finland )

appreciate a liberal attitude to the use of alcohol. The Danes are

primarily beer drinkers, while the other countries are

more apt to distilled spirits. I was right anyway - sadly. Our

research project went well along from the beginning of

1983, and ended in 1986. I treated 51% of the volunteers, my female

colleague treated 43%, and the man in the front

treated 6%. When the report was to bee written, there was not

enough money for me to participate in the writing

process. According to my ideas we should relate to the controversy

within the alcoholism area. But in 1985 they didn't

want to do that. So our leader, Jógvan sen, got the maximum

credit of the least effort. It's just the way he is, there

was in my opinion nothing but a strive for personal success on

others behalf. Later he became the leader of the danish

psychological association. Actually I didn't care that much, as I

had started in freudian psychoanalysis in 1983, and my

interest in the alcoholic area was rapidly diminishing. But it is

to bad anyway. In the final report we had very good results.

About 2/3 of the participants had a lesser damaging relation to

alcohol, and their wages had on the average risen with

17%. There was not found any connection between sex, length of

misuse, social status, etc. and outcome variables. The

only highly statistical significance to be found was, that there

were a far better outcome for people who had not been in

disulfiram treatment. I think this has something to do with

humiliation and a systematic undermining of the persons

possibility to become responsible for their own actions. But of

course nothing happened with the use of Antabus.

In 1988, at the end of my very tough analysis, I got worried over

the marching of AA into the treatment area. So I wrote

a full page article in a left liberal newspaper called

" Information " . The title was " Sorry - alcoholism is not a disease " .

There was no immediate response, which wondered me, as I had given

AA a really good punch in their belly. Later I

heard from a woman who also underwent a psychoanalysis, and was a

close friend of mine, that the AA community in

Copenhagen had become chocked, and didn't know what to do. One of

her friends was a co-editor of " Information "

and a member of AA. He had told her. He also told her, that they

had asked him to use the power of the newspaper

against me. " Take his feats " , was the expression. Probably an

expression from soccer. But instead of misusing his

position he refused and told the story to my friend. Later he died

due to alcohol or suicide, and a member of AA wrote a

book about him. Another incidence worried me, though. About two

months after my article I was visited by a person

who said he had read my article. He would like a treatment aiming

at controlled drinking, although he was a member of

AA. The man was about 185 cm of height, and looked very strong and

agile. There were none of the characteristics of

misuse in his face or else. Although he was speaking danish without

accent, he looked american to me, so I wonder who

he really was. I had a strange feeling during the whole session.

But when he told me, that he was an expert in karate

(close to danish champion ), and that he went totally mad as soon

he had something to drink, I started to understand the

message. When he left he said that I should call his mother, if he

didn't show up at the next session. Actually I didn't do

that kind of things, but he insisted upon calling his mother if he

didn't come. He of course missed his appointment, and I

called the number he had given me. A nice lady told me, that her

son was not at home, and that she didn't know where

he was. I never saw him again. Those AA's really gives me the

creep. I know that many have got a better life through

AA, but there is something rotten. Most of all, they remind me of

the american movie called " Stolen Bodies " , because

they try to make everybody alike.

Since then I have been writing a little to the newspapers, but

mostly ironic and not to dangerous to AA. On the other

hand they have been growing into the establishment, supported by

writers, journalists and other prominent or known

public persons. Lately one of the most popular serials in Denmark (

it's a kind of " Hill Street Blues " for taxi drivers ) has

got one of the main figures to attend to AA, and a well known AA

actor shall play a main role in a campaign financed by

the danish " Health Council " (Sundhedsstyrelsen), which ultimately

is a government tool. I don't like it. In a homogenous

and over controlled society like Denmark it is alarming that an

american fundamentalist trend is overthrowing a seemingly

resistant culture.

I have not been occupied specifically with alcoholism in the last 6

years, but I have developed a theory that explains very much

of what is going on. Shortly it is the interconnection between shame and

rejection, of which I have a lot to say. Not only in

relation to alcoholism, but also on other topics as well.

Therefore I have planned to make another attempt in the media, and I

could use information from USA, as it is vital to

Denmark anyway. The Danes don't really know it, but they are so

impressed by themselves that it lies beyond their imagination

that their thinking should be dominated by the same forces that try to

attack Clinton.

Well, this is maybe not an usual question, but can you connect me with

people interested in one or more of the topics I have

written about in this letter?

It could be an idea to start a discussion in Denmark, because the public

are very eager to follow these kind of discussions, and

potentially a debate can alter attitudes in another direction than this

AA discourse. In turn that can possibly influence your

country. What do you say.

With my best regards

Bjørn Herring

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[Guest guest]

Hi Bjorn, folks

Welcome to the list. I found your story compelling, and you will find like

minds here. I will reply to some of your points.

On Fri, 02 Apr 1999 19:17:05 +0200 =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn?= Herring

wrote:

> 3. AA and 12-step ideology is the road to fascism.

Is Diener still with us? This was/is 's view too.

> Seemingly, there was an insurmountable gap between the

> notion that alcoholism was an irreversible, progressive and

> chronically disease which only could be arrested and not

> cured, and the disrespectful and ingenious results made by american

> psychologist. I really do admire this ability of

> divergent pragmatism. The european tradition is more apt to

> 'think' themselves out of the problems. This is, alas, a major

> problem within European psychology - to much thinking. So 'Bless

> America', after all.

This arangement seems pretty well reversed now. the Disease Model is not only

totally entraneched in US treatment providers, but is treated like a sacred cow

by many of the skeptics, afraid to criticise it, whereas in the UK at least the

perception is very different, as Peele reveals in his later books.

> One of my main findings was evidence for the proposition that the

> difference between alcoholic and non-alcoholic

> consumers of alcohol were a difference in learning, and not in

> physiology. Besides that I identified the prohibition in

> America as the historical basis for the disease model,

I agree on both points. The disease Model was a device to rescue the

temperance movement, after the manifest failure of Prohibition to end

drunkenness, i.e. it didnt work because some ppl are 'powerless' to stop

drinking.

> So therefore I

> went to one of the grand old men in the danish array of alcoholism,

> C.J. Hansen, who was a respected and devoted

> psychiatrist with special competence in alcoholism for a couple of

> decades.

> He read my work in two days, and I visited him in a very little

> room with one of his employees present, a scarred former

> alcoholic with unpleasant eyes. Then he told me that he agreed on

> all my main conclusions and the most of my thoughts,

> though there might be some minor differences in view on some

> matters. " Great " , I thought. But only until he continued by

> stating that if I should be so careless to cite him for his

> opinion, he would call me a liar. And, as he explained to me, he

> had a witness present. Coincidentally this employee totally

> disagreed with my points of view. What I didn't understand,

> he told me, was that the question of alcoholism was not a

> scientific question, but a political question. And he meant that

> the alcoholics were better off under the medical umbrella than

> anything else.

This man is a moral coward. The presence of an honest witness would in fact

have made his denial impossible, not assisted it. I also would suggest that

his reasoning is unsound; the medicalization of many psychological difficulties

has meant that there would be no problem now with offering help based on your

ideas in a medical context. Perhaps he was concerned about the business being

taken up by non-medical psychologists and paraprofessionals.

> " Ringgården " had been founded in 1972, and a Danish physician that

> had been treated by AA in USA shortened the

> twelve steps into 4 : 1. Recognition, 2. Confession, 3. Conversion

> and 4. Use. The concept of denial was heavily used in

> explaining anything, and they relied on the use of disulfiram ( a

> danish invention with the trade mark Antabus, of the

> words 'anti' and 'abuse').

I am always mystified by the use of anatabuse in 12-step settings. If you

believe that a God has removed your compulsion to drink (as you are told you

must ask to happen and believe happens) then what is the antabuse for?

> The staff had this strong feeling that it

> was no connection between success in therapy and later outcome.

This was effectively admitted by the staff at the 12-step rehab i was in.

> In

> other words, something was working in their

> treatment, but it was not what they thought.

This, however, was not.

>It was therefore

> natural, that they wanted to know more about which factors

> that made their treatment so good compared to others. Two years

> later, after huge piles of statistics and intensive

> interviews with former patients I found 'the secret' of

> " Ringgården " . My research was a so-called qualitative research, but

> also had a statistical division combined with the qualitative

> results. Well, first of all, 'the secret' was, that there was no

> secret. It was the daily life in nice and friendly surroundings,

> with outdoor working, preparing food, group meetings and

> contact with the rest of the community without alcohol that gave

> the patients another and different experience of

> themselves and their human surroundings. Their feeling of worth

> become better, and their self confidence elevated. They

> got another try!

You are absolutely right. however, many rehabs work *against* these factors.

For example, nobody prepared their own food in the rehab I was in, whether they

had an eating disorder diagnosis or not. food was literally given to you on a

plate. I beleive this was actually undermining the competence of many ppl,

since they were losing the familiarity of preparing food and not learning to

serve themselves normal portions. apart from a low-calorie diet for those

overweight, there was no acknowledgement of the gender of the patient or their

natural body size in determing hoe much food they were given. As a Six foot two

man, I was being underfed, and went in normal weight and came out at least

fourteen pounds underweight!

> On the basis of the journals of those I

> interviewed I found another very interesting result, but it didn't

> show in the final report, because I couldn't explain it, and it

> would have been controversial. Of course I was had a

> special interest in people who had a controlled relation to

> alcohol, and I found that there was a remarkable significant

> relation between alcohol diagnosis and ability to handle alcohol.

> Those with addictive diagnosis were far better in

> controlling their drinking than those with the less severe alcohol

> diagnosis, as excessive (and neurotic) drinking. Now, I

> think, it is in nice concordance with the findings of Vaillant in

> " The Natural History of Alcoholism " .

This is a fascinating result. Can you say more about this? Are you saying

that someone with severe alcohol problems can better learn to drink moderately

than someone with less severe ones?

> In the final report we had very good results.

> About 2/3 of the participants had a lesser damaging relation to

> alcohol, and their wages had on the average risen with

> 17%. There was not found any connection between sex, length of

> misuse, social status, etc. and outcome variables. The

> only highly statistical significance to be found was, that there

> were a far better outcome for people who had not been in

> disulfiram treatment. I think this has something to do with

> humiliation and a systematic undermining of the persons

> possibility to become responsible for their own actions. But of

> course nothing happened with the use of Antabus.

Very good results, and I am not surprised abt the Antabuse result; ppl will

tend to attribute any success to the drug and not to themselves, so will not

feel they have achieved anything.

> Another incidence worried me, though. About two

> months after my article I was visited by a person

> who said he had read my article. He would like a treatment aiming

> at controlled drinking, although he was a member of

> AA. The man was about 185 cm of height, and looked very strong and

> agile. There were none of the characteristics of

> misuse in his face or else. Although he was speaking danish without

> accent, he looked american to me, so I wonder who

> he really was. I had a strange feeling during the whole session.

> But when he told me, that he was an expert in karate

> (close to danish champion ), and that he went totally mad as soon

> he had something to drink, I started to understand the

> message.

I once jokingly referred to the 'AA mafia' and it seems my joke was very

accurate!

> Most of all, they remind me of

> the american movie called " Stolen Bodies " , because

> they try to make everybody alike.

This is probably the Danish title to the movie 'Invasion of the Bodysnatchers'.

Many ppl here have commented on how AA reminds them of that film.

> I have not been occupied specifically with alcoholism in the last 6

> years, but I have developed a theory that explains very much

> of what is going on. Shortly it is the interconnection between shame and

> rejection, of which I have a lot to say. Not only in

> relation to alcoholism, but also on other topics as well.

Please say more about this - I agree with you. I also think it is involved in

probably all other compulsicve self-destructive behavior.

>

> It could be an idea to start a discussion in Denmark, because the public

> are very eager to follow these kind of discussions, and

> potentially a debate can alter attitudes in another direction than this

> AA discourse. In turn that can possibly influence your

> country. What do you say.

Good idea. I was impressed with how well-informed the Danish public was on the

Maastricht treaty when the vote on it was held there; a well-educated democracy

ought not to fall to the aliens....

best,

----------

Pete Watts

" I wish to live without hate, whim, jealousy, envy, fear. I wish to be

simiple, honest, frank, natural, clean in mind and clean in body...to face

any obstacle and meet every difficulty unabashed and unafraid. "

--Elbert Hubbard

PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT LIST:

http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 07:42 PM 4/7/99 -0400, you wrote:

>

>> Another incidence worried me, though. About two

>> months after my article I was visited by a person

>> who said he had read my article. He would like a treatment aiming

>> at controlled drinking, although he was a member of

>> AA. The man was about 185 cm of height, and looked very strong and

>> agile. There were none of the characteristics of

>> misuse in his face or else. Although he was speaking danish without

>> accent, he looked american to me, so I wonder who

>> he really was. I had a strange feeling during the whole session.

>> But when he told me, that he was an expert in karate

>> (close to danish champion ), and that he went totally mad as soon

>> he had something to drink, I started to understand the

>> message.

>

>I once jokingly referred to the 'AA mafia' and it seems my joke was very

>accurate!

It is fascinating to consider for a moment that this visit may have been

intended to intimidate. Wouldn't it be funny if this is how the AA mindset

is ultimately preserved (for however long it manages it)- by dissenting

people getting a visit from someone? The iron fist in the latex glove? The

Spanish Inquisition would have liked that. Yet look how successful this

technique was in keeping the world flat. You can intimidate Galileo,

Copernicus, etc but you just can't stop the truth from coming out

eventually. In this instance, the truth would simply be; up to date factual

information about addiction and recovery.

Joe Berenbaum

------------------------------------------------------------------------