Bette to me

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 11/11/1998 12:50:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> awatt04@... writes:

>

> > My only concern abt your

> > post is that no-one is suggesting keeping XA's out who are thinking abt

> > breaking free - it's those who only have an agenda of destroying what we

> > are trying to do here that we need to worry abt.

> >

> > Pete

>

> And just how do you propose to differentiate? Is there some sort of official

> form that prospective participants in this forum should be required to fill

> out?

Bette,

I specifically argued against that. I have said nothing to contradict what

you said in reply. I differentiate by the way they *behave*, just as you

suggest. As someone just booted from a list myself recently, I have thought

this through.

In the case of Glenn, it would be mighty odd not to object to the presence

of someone who played a large part of the motivation gfor creating the list

in the first place - to get away from him. i think he' showed his colors by

now. However, I dont necessarily think ppl should be booted actually - much

better is REVIEW or NOPOST. that way theyre controlled, and will benefit

from the list in thew way ppl suggest. if they learn to behave, they can

even be put back on full posting.

Please stay with us Bette, but try to be a bit calmer and assertive if

bugged by something? (sarcasm is not assertive). You misunderstood me. I

may be a bit cranky, but I'm not a nutcase!

Pete

>

> Perhaps if some steppers that are not actively attacking members in this

> forum, read what some of the participants here have to say they may develop

> some empathy. This in the long run may prove useful. I know that there are

> people here who have had horrendous experiences. My indoctrination into 12

> step recovery was no friggin' picnic, which some of you know from reading what

> little I have written on my treatment experience on arf12s.

>

> I was deeply involved in NA for just over 10 years; I regret some of the

> things that I turned around and did to others that I learned as a result of

> indoctrination and having been treated this way myself. I have been away from

> NA for well over a year now. I don't agree that the 12 steps are the only way

> to recovery. Personally, I agree with very little that the steps have to

> offer, even though I was once a proponent. My breaking away from NA has taken

> a period of years to occur with a lot of self-doubt and ocassional returns to

> thinking " if only I went to more meetings, " if only I worked the steps

> better, " etc. I began to find that I was not the only one to have ever

> experienced this last year on the alt. hierarchy of Usenet. I struggle with

> some of the bullshit that goes on there, and sometimes I can't tell one side

> from the other, the name calling gets so pronounced. Still, I believe that

> there are people who are " steppers " who are not such flaming assholes. IMO, to

> paint all steppers as zealots that are out to get those who speak out against

> 12 step dogma is just as dogmatic as what we condemn.

>

> The way you talk, if I had come to this list in the confusion I felt last

> year, I would not have been welcome. My first contact with Ken was a sort of a

> flame--no, I am downplaying what I felt at the time. It really was a flame,

> wasn't it, Ken? It wasn't that I disagreed with what he presented at that

> time. Actually, I was very much in agreement. It was his presentation that

> offended me at that time. He challenged stuff that my whole life was wrapped

> up in. It was stuff that needed challenging, and I needed to hear. It helped

> me a great deal, but dogma doesn't die easy. I do my own thinking about

> recovery and what I think about it now. I can't say that is the case from the

> onset of my recovery. I don't think that everyone in NA/AA is as entrenched in

> the dogma as I was....I was a service junkie and the whole nine yards--hard

> core NA as some might say. Being a recovering addict in NA had become my whole

> identity and I was slowly getting real fucked up from not being able to

> reconcile my personal beliefs that were emerging with the dogma of the program

> that surrounded me and had become my life. I am glad that I was able to get

> the information and support I needed in making a difficult transition before

> you all became so exclusive that I, too, would have been excluded.

>

> I think it is wrong to exclude someone from this list before they have done

> anything _on the list_ to merit it. I am really angry that this has happened

> regardless of what a jerk that person has been elsewhere. It pisses me off

> when I hear someone like Gold say that his delurking has been met with

> antagonistic email from members here. With this in mind I figure that it might

> be a good idea if I just unsub before I say something hurtful to people here.

> It is not my intention to hurt people with what I have thus far, so rather

> than go on about this shit which I think is nothing more than making mountains

> out of molehills it is probably best that I leave.

>

> Take Care....and try to keep those open minds(sarcasm intended)

>

> Bette

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> My point is that he did nothing _on the list_ to merit being booted. I really

> don't care what someone did elsewhere. Why should he be measured with a

> different yardstick than other people _on the list_?

bette,

if you are with a group of ppl in a bar and one person is extemely

offensive and threatening so you and your friends go to another bar, if hge

follows you and sits with you again, do you let him stay with you because

he hasnt insulted you in the bar youre now sitting in? thats what we're

talking abt here.

>

> And you, Pete, are a fine one to tell me to be calm. You write numerous posts

> to this list where you are off on a tirade. I guess, in your eyes, I don't

> have that same privilege when something perturbs me.

I think the only person I blew it with was JB, and I've admitted that and

acknowledged it and even voluntarily chosen to bring it up again and

explain why I reacted thwe way I did. I write tirades against XA perhaps,

but I dont write tirades against individual ppl, - especially if the person

has not written anything against me. if someone starts being personal

against me then i will eventually reply in kind, but i always do my best to

keep it well below what they say to me, and also indicate, as assertively as

possible, *how* i think they are being needlessly disparaging towards me,

which is often interpreted as me attacking them.

Originally I didnt write you personally on this, or say anything that even

implicates you as far as i understand, (I assume you arent active XA) - and

also, you semed to be reacting to what you *thought* I said rather than

what I actually did. I think it's fair to draw attention to all those

things. why should what i have said got you so angry? even if you

disdagree, why did you have to say it in such a confrontational way?

It is funny how someone

> is all of a sudden categorized in a different manner when they express an

> opinion that may not be popular. It is also interesting to note that the

> reaction you present here is not a lot different than the reaction my

> questioning some of the bullshit of NA received.

Perhaps I should go to NA - I've never, ever, heard a stepper of any stripe

encourage someone to be more assertive.

> BTW, there is nothing wrong

> with sarcasm when not taken to extremes. I have always enjoyed it, and will

> continue to do so.

for humor, of course. when said in anger it's passive-aggression. if you

want to resolve a dispute in a win-win fashion, without bad feelings

afterwards on either side, it's unlikely to achieve it. I am trying to

resolve this in a way that we can both be confortable with - I dont want to

hurt you by using aggressive or passive-aggressive comments, and while I'm

not so effete as to be unable to handle some jibing, I am human.

> I will also use it where I see fitting. And where did the

> " nutcase " remark come from. I never suggested such a thing in my post? Don't

> put words in my mouth.

I didnt Bette - I never said that you called me that. I was making a joke

against myself, that someone might think I was a nutcase. I was trying to

show that I do have a sense of my own ridiculousness, which i feel rather

more comfortable with than saying i have some humility.

Pete

----------------------

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