No Subject

[Guest guest]

I like this but I have found that the right-left thing is outdated and AA is a

good example. It seems to me to be an organization of middle class liberals

with their attendant dishonesty and hypocrisy.

Totalitarian systems have been on both the so calaled right and left; remember

that the Nazis were indeed socialists and put 5 million people back to work!!!

Put a lot of food on the table and through an expertly controlled central

economy, they created a boom in manufacturing and R & D -- and they murdered and

did all the rest most of us know about.

AA is religion without real ethics or direction, religion without cosmology

which inflates the persona and viciously attacks the Self, the higher, noble

Self. yes the industrial world and info world are taking thier toll on

individuals, but in my perception, it is becuase of a lack of true spiritual

goals and because of the emphasis on constantly Doing something, improving the

ethos of the person, consuming, moving.

----------

From: paul diener[sMTP:pauldiener@...]

Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 11:16 AM

To: 12-step-freeegroups

Cc: posts@...; by@...; @...; Gold@...

Subject: No Subject

My initial reaction to Gold's post was in favor of free speech and the most

open access possible. Now, however, I read that Mr. Gold is a PROFESSIONAL drug

and alcohol treatment proselytizer. This throws a different light on things.

Would a paid publicist from Charter, or one of the other mega-chains, also be

welcome to post? Since Mr. Gold earns his living by pushing the alcohol and

drug hoax, can we trust what he has to say? Free speech is important, but how

" free " is speech when the person speaking is PAID to promote an ideology

concocted by reactionary government and corporate leaders? Mr. Gold and his

industry propagandize individuals who are forced into " treatment " under threat

of prison. They, sign probation attendance slips and keep records, just as do

prison guards, whom they closely resemble. Let me draw attention to a

publication by Chiauzzi, E. and S. Liljegren, 1993, Jour. of Substance Abuse

Treatment. (10, 3, pp 303-316) The authors point out that treatment counselors

(like Gold)

tend to be " antiintellectual and antiresearch. " The rationale of treatment

is " more emotional and POLITICAL " (my emphasis) than medical. The wide use of

the " denial " concept means that referred persons " are guilty until proven

innocent. " At base, what is really going on here is that the decay of the

American economy, and the rise of social discontent, is being given a MEDICAL

interpretation. Yes, some people react to hard times by drinking too much (I

did myself). But the alcohol and drug hoax claims that the hard times

lower-income and working class Americans are experiencing are CAUSED by their

own " addictions, " rather than by the closing of factories, the decay of the

minimum wage, the burgeoning of inner-city slums, the transformation of our

education system into government indoctrination centers, the conquest of

government by right wing extremists, etc. Hence, as the authors conclude, " The

tendency to reduce complex problems to syndromes, diseases and addictions

detracts needed attention from

s

ocietal and political factors that shape unhealthy behavior. " The 12-Step

Movement must be understood as an overwhelmingly POLITICAL movement, which is

funded by right wing government and corporate leaders. Gold earns his

living as a paid POLITICAL propagandist working for this system, and thus daily

forces a thinly disguised right-wing ideology upon unwilling " clients. " That he

now comes here pleading for free speech is, of course, hypocritical. If he

valued free speech, he wouldn't be working as a propagandist for the war on

drugs. I remain undecided as to whether Gold and others should be allowed to

post. The rising fascist trend in this country can't be controlled by muzzling

its proponents. But even if Mr Gold, and others like him, are allowed to post,

we should be wary of what they have to say. Paid propagandists are not to be

trusted.

-----

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Hello and all,

This is becoming quite a party. I didnt expect to find

Nazi apologism on this list, tho i realise it was intended

to challenge XA-apologism. I guess the enlightened thing

would be just to let it drop, but I would challenge:

On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:54:21 -0800 " A. Price "

wrote:

remember that

the Nazis were indeed socialists and put 5 million people

back to work!!! > Put a lot of food on the table and

through an expertly controlled central economy, they

created a boom in manufacturing and R & D --

I agree that Nazi-ism styled itself as Socialist, in

exactly the way that Eastern bloc republics were

" democratic " and Zirenovsky is a " Liberal Democrat " .

However, its ecomonic policies were short-termism and would

have produced hyperinflation down the line even if the war

had nor happened.

'Nazi eficiency' is a myth. they were ill-disciplined

idiots who ran Germany like a Mafia Commssion. Not as

efficiently probably.

Pete Watts

----------

Whatever you may Think of Me

There Has Been and Will Be

Thought Much Worse of One

Much Better Than Me

" And Yet It does Move! "

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi Larry

Well chaz and Ken have both writeen books, and 's

writing hers. We're getting there!

Y'know, I always regretted that I wasnt an early stepper

who could have taken part in the growth of XA. Now I'm an

early 12-step-free, and we're fighting the odds.

Pete

On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:23:01 -0800 (PST) lhl@...

wrote:

> OK here goes,

> We all know what steppers do, and we all have sad sad stories about it.

> What I want to do is define the issue and try to explain why these people

> do this and what can be done about it. All I see us doing is whine, whine

> ,whine,

> and I understand that we are not missionaries out to save the the world from

> steppers but I really think that we need to come to some consencess

> pertaining to

> A. whats going on?

> B. what are we going to do about it?

> C. Who's going to write the book and who's going to finance the book because

> publishers dont like to touch these things. In order to be credible someone

> has to

> put these things in order and and present them in a reasonable and

> scientific manner.

> My brother could do it as he just got invited to the Insitute for Advanced

> Studies

> at Prinston. The only hitch is HE'S A STEPPER.

>

> Come on people help me out here.

>

> Larry

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> This FREE email group is sponsored by NextCard Internet Visa.

> Earn free airline tickets WITH DOUBLE Rewards points. Apply online now.

> http://ads./click/137/0

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Whoa, where did everyone go?

> Larry

Hi Larry

The list ebbs and flows. Sometimes, we get no

posts at all for awhile.

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

> >RABIES ANONYMOUS 12 STEPS

> >

> >We admitted we were powerless over our rabid behavior - that our lives had

> >become unmanageable.

> >

> >(I could no longer lead the team, my fear of water was out of control, even

> >the smallest drip drove me insane)

> >

> >Came to believe that a Power Greater than my master could stop us from

> >frothing at the mouth...

> >

> >(Master wiped and wiped my mouth. The froth continued....soon it was like an

> >overflow from a septic plant, bubbing, stinking, swirling... OH MY!. Nothing

> >helped. I realized then that my true master was not Steve Case, but Eskimo

> >Bill himself! Imagine my relief! Hallelujah!)

> >

> >Made a decision to turn our rabies tags and our chewy bones over to the care

> >and direction of Eskimo Bill, as we understood Eskimo Bill...

> >

> >(Today I do Eskimo Bill's will, not mine. He is my master, the ALMIGHTY, and

> >he saved my life. Each morning I squat down and thank Eskimo Bill for my

> >life.)

> >

> >The steps work because Eskimo Bill posesses super canine powers. Sometimes I

> >think he is almost human, but I know deep down he was once a skunk.

Gosh, can you get on the aol message boards

if you don't have aol? This sounds like fun!

>

> How doooo they stay sober?

> Such fragile flowers.

> Sence of humor?

> The counslors strut.

> Demand to be taken seriously.

> Glower.

> But justlook at the clown shoes their wearing.

> The veins in their forhead.

> Jesus I'm glad I know CPR.

>

>

> Hey I'm a poet!

> Comments?

I agree. 'Tis a fine poem. Maybe you should

post it on the Aol message board.

-----

See the original message at /list/12-step-free/?start=956

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

about 4 years ago, I was a pretty functioning person. Somehow, I

> became obsessed with the idea that I needed to be more than what I am.

> Through various books and seminars (ie. Tony Robbins et al) I

> swallowed the idea that if I wasn't rich, and totally fulfilled it was

> because I wasn't thinking correctly or some other defect I harbored.

> Instead of being happy with the life I had, which I once was, I became

> obsessed with all I wasn't accomplishing. As related to my drinking:

> once upon a time, there was a happy young girl who liked to go out to

> the local pub, drink fine beer and wine and food, and sing songs with

> her friends. She had a beautiful home in the country, 5 cats and a

> dog, and many friends who loved and cared about her. One day, the

> girl realized that drinking and having so much fun was 'bad', 'not

> real', and 'wrong'. She left her friends, her home, all her

> belongings, and everything she loved convinced she was doing the

> 'right' thing. 2 years later,after intense AA involvement, she is

> recovering from a nervous breakdown,and finds that she has no friends,

> owns nothing, and basically threw her life away.

> yes, yes, it may sound melodramatic~but it is true. Perhaps I have

> found what I was looking for; for I realize that I must accept myself

> as I am; and I was pretty good. I learned a very hard lesson: you

> can't escape being human, and being human is ok.

> Christmas Eve I bought a bottle of wine and puposely drank 2 glasses

> of it. I had to tell myself over and over that I would not die, or

> have a heart attack or kidney/liver failure( I am in perfect health);

> I had to end this fear. The next day I had to work through the fear

> that I would die. But I didn't die, and I have no desire to drink;as I

> knew I wouldn't.

> I don't suggest to anyone that they drink- I simply am not an

> alcoholic, and never was. I was so afraid to say that before, but now

> I'm getting my life back. Everyone is different- I know there are

> others like me who struggle because they have friends or family in the

> program who tell them they are wrong. I hope my experience can help

> someone; like the many brave people

> who shared their 'deserting' stories with me.

Bless your heart, Heidi.

>

>

>

> ==

>

> peace,love,joy...heidi

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

Well at least they sent a whole page joe. Usually steppers just come up

with asinine oneliners that mean nothing to anyone but them.

you know the ghastly thing is, I found myself almost spouting them myself

to a newcomer the last time I went to a meeting. I really ought to follow

my own advice to Pupship.

P.

> Its very revealing I think; this demonstrates the

> don't-think-just-endlessly-repeat-the-ancient-text approach to discussion

> as poineered in the rooms of AA. As if simply reading " the promises " would

> automatically trigger a recognition of the " truth " of that particular

> approach. Don't even bother explaining why you believe what you believe-

> just send the unbeliever a page from your prayer book and that will do the

> trick. Sure it will.

>

>

>

> Joe Berenbaum

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Internet FileZone: Always FREE!

> Instantly store & access your valuable PC files on the net,

> from any Web browser.

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>

>

[Guest guest]

Go for it!

>From 12-step-free-return-2242-joy1959=hotmail.comreturns (DOT)

Fri Feb 26 08:46:46 1999

>Received: from [127.0.0.1] by md. with NNFMP; 26 Feb 1999

16:44:30 -0000

>Mailing-List: contact 12-step-free-owneregroups

>X-Mailing-List: 12-step-freeegroups

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>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

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> by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 1999 16:45:53 -0000

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> by centex.centex.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA09331

> for <12-step-freeegroups>; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:47:13 -0600 (CST)

>Message-Id:

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>From: angelina@...

>Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 16:47:13 +0000

>X-Mailer: West Central Net WebMail

>Subject: No Subject

>Content-Type: text/plain

>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>

>Wanna hear something funny?

>One of the AA evangelists just sent me the

>Promises via e-mail. Pretentious asses!

>I should send him the AAdeprogramming

>link!

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/26/99 10:46:15 AM Central Standard Time,

angelina@... writes:

<< Wanna hear something funny?

One of the AA evangelists just sent me the

Promises via e-mail. Pretentious asses!

I should send him the AAdeprogramming

link!

>>

Do it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

send it to them. they could use it.

-dave

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 04:47 PM 2/26/99 +0000, you wrote:

>Wanna hear something funny?

>One of the AA evangelists just sent me the

>Promises via e-mail. Pretentious asses!

>I should send him the AAdeprogramming

>link!

Its very revealing I think; this demonstrates the

don't-think-just-endlessly-repeat-the-ancient-text approach to discussion

as poineered in the rooms of AA. As if simply reading " the promises " would

automatically trigger a recognition of the " truth " of that particular

approach. Don't even bother explaining why you believe what you believe-

just send the unbeliever a page from your prayer book and that will do the

trick. Sure it will.

Joe Berenbaum

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi Joe

It would be good to see you again and return your books and reimburse you

for " Serenity Principle " . Fortunately I read some before losing it. Why

didnt I lose " AA comes of Age " instead?!

I'll try to give you a ring; things are pretty tight right now as I have a

lot of college work to catch up on.

I must say I am very grateful for how you handle the likes of Weakley. You

are much more composed (serene?!) but make all the right points; someone

might just dismiss me as a foul-mouthed nut but they couldnt do that with

you.

Also, I have to admit that I am the size of a tank which doesnt exactly put

me in a very good position to criticise OA, tho it needs to be said that

many AA's smoke like chimneys, which I dont, and would be derisory abt

overeating as a serious addiction and the need to recover from it in the

first place.

P.

> , I think you need to come over and get decontaminated again! I will

> put on my white radiation suit, and together we will screen your psyche for

> program concept viruses and see how many have gotten back into your brain,

> and neutralise them using the usual procedures and software. Probably some

> paperback detective novel that you read had something in it that you didn't

> notice, and then all of a sudden you were in a meeting again, thinking

> " Good Orderly Direction, hey that's clever! " . At least the virus didn't

> send copies of your 4th step to everybody you know. We will remove the

> unwanted conditioning, and then we will eat pizza.

Pete

----------------------

" I wish to live without hate, whim, jealousy, envy, fear. I wish to be

simiple, honest, frank, natural, clean in mind and clean in body...to

face any obstacle and meet every difficulty unabashed and unafraid. "

--Elbert Hubbard

PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT/INFO LIST:

http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Pete, Lois Trimpey of Jack and Lois has written about fatness. One of her

books is called " Fatness " and the other " The Feast Beast " . There are a few

women who come to Rational Recovery Vancouver and say it makes a lot more

sense than anything else they have read on the problem. Have you read it?

Take Care,

Carol

At 10:28 AM 2/27/99 +0000, you wrote:

>Hi Joe

>

>It would be good to see you again and return your books and reimburse you

>for " Serenity Principle " . Fortunately I read some before losing it. Why

>didnt I lose " AA comes of Age " instead?!

>

>I'll try to give you a ring; things are pretty tight right now as I have a

>lot of college work to catch up on.

>

>I must say I am very grateful for how you handle the likes of Weakley. You

>are much more composed (serene?!) but make all the right points; someone

>might just dismiss me as a foul-mouthed nut but they couldnt do that with

>you.

>

>Also, I have to admit that I am the size of a tank which doesnt exactly put

>me in a very good position to criticise OA, tho it needs to be said that

>many AA's smoke like chimneys, which I dont, and would be derisory abt

>overeating as a serious addiction and the need to recover from it in the

>first place.

>

>P.

>

>

>

>> , I think you need to come over and get decontaminated again! I will

>> put on my white radiation suit, and together we will screen your psyche for

>> program concept viruses and see how many have gotten back into your brain,

>> and neutralise them using the usual procedures and software. Probably some

>> paperback detective novel that you read had something in it that you didn't

>> notice, and then all of a sudden you were in a meeting again, thinking

>> " Good Orderly Direction, hey that's clever! " . At least the virus didn't

>> send copies of your 4th step to everybody you know. We will remove the

>> unwanted conditioning, and then we will eat pizza.

>

>

>Pete

>----------------------

> " I wish to live without hate, whim, jealousy, envy, fear. I wish to be

>simiple, honest, frank, natural, clean in mind and clean in body...to

>face any obstacle and meet every difficulty unabashed and unafraid. "

> --Elbert Hubbard

>

>PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT/INFO LIST:

>http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Internet FileZone: Always FREE!

>Instantly store & access your valuable PC files on the net,

>from any Web browser.

>SIGN UP NOW - http://offers./click/235/0

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/2/99 12:47:28 PM Central Standard Time, railroadrita@my-

dejanews.com writes:

<<

Pete, I don't quite understand. Why would being overweight disqualify

you from criticising the confess-your-sins-so-God-will-solve-an-unrelated-

problem-for-you OA cult? Does being a problem drinker and looking for a

personally helpful solution disqualify one from criticising AA?

>>

Does problem drinking imply addiction? I think not, even if actual compulsion

is present; many compulsive behaviors are purely psychological.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I, too, share Sheri's concern that you should be required to sign such a paper

at work. Where do you work? What business is it of theirs? I understood that

you teach RR, but surely that is your private business.

As to the statement itself I have only minor quibbles, i.e. " different from " not

" than " , " to us " not " we " , and the typo (you're not alone here) in the spelling

of " United States. " (We may not be too tightly wrapped, but we don't like to

admit it.)

But does it need to be as long as it is? I would think that a statement such

as, " Of course I believe in RR. I teach it because I believe in it. If an

individual comes to my class that I believe would be better served by a

different program, I will invite that person to explore that program, no matter

it what it may be. As a teacher I introduce people to the RR program. It is

not my job to denigrate other programs. If I am asked, I will express my

personal opinion, emphasizing that it is only my opinion and that others may

disagree. That, however, is not the purpose of my class. "

I think this works if it is SOS that you teach, I would simply substitute SOS

for RR. (Got to admit I don't know much about SOS.)

I hope I'm not being naive, as I don't know what you do for a living. I thought

the RR classes were a personal interest that you engaged in outside of work.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Hi Gang,

>Since I am being forced to sign a paper at work that says I will not show

>bias toward RR, SMART or against AA I came up with this compromise

>explaination. Can I get a helpful critique (no swearing please) that may

>support my position. I really do think AA is definitely dogmatic but I must

>appease the gov't powers that be. Thanksing in advance.

>Carol

>

>

>Why Can't We All Get Along?

>

>This escalating conflict between traditionalists and nontraditionalists

>has results that are harmful to those in need of care and to we who provide

>it. Each digs the trenches deeper by attacking the other. Decent,

>intelligent people get subjective and sometimes rude. Ad homiminem attacks

>abound. For instance, , founder of SOS, wrote a book

>seething anger against A.A. and asserting that it promotes " an oppressive

>cultist atmosphere. " He too gets oppressive describing it as the

> " ravings of religionists " . Better to discuss the ideas in AA and seek

>common ground. Most nontraditionalists (except , Hester, Engs) see no

>value in the spiritual underpinnings. But AA has a right to its spiritual

>creation, as it is a program of its own design.

>

>Other programs aren't usually attacked directly by AA proponents but are

>insulted by AA's slogan, " Its our way or the highway " , which does not

>reflect an open nor compassionate attitude to those who find AA unsuited to

>their needs.

>

>Have you heard of the book " Controversies in the Addictions Field " edited

>by Ruth

>Engs? The A.C.A., who knew she promoted open pro/con format on major

>issues in an effort to mitigate tensions in the addictions field, offered

>to sponsor a book that would serve that purpose. She accepted. It covers

>the influence of genetics and environment, the nature of dependency,

>prevention, intervention, education and treatment.

>

>Her introduction:

> " As a researcher and educator who has investigated drinking

>patterns for almost 20 yrs. I have become deeply concerned over the

>increased polarization between different factions in the field during the

>past decade in the Untied States, and to a lesser extent in Canada. I am

>concerned that this hostility has not only led to disharmony and discord,

>but has even more importantly, prevented workable solutions to alcohol and

>other drug

>abuse problems in North America. As part of this accelerating conflict,

>conferences and `publications have been forthcoming with only ONE side of a

>particular issue being presented, usually promoted as the sole way to solve

>a problem. Individuals with dissenting viewpoints have not been encouraged

>or even invited to partake of these forums. Consequently the previous

>publications and conferences have all been one-sided.

>

>The mark of a scholar and a scholarly publication is to be tolerant of

>differing viewpoints and to ensure that all sides have an open forum for

>presentation. Sadly, I talked with some potential authors who did not agree

>with or believe in the concept of an open forum and debate. Some had

>punitive attitudes towards individuals or groups who had opinions or values

>different than their own. Some were even hostile to the concept of this

>book. I am distressed by the attitudes of these individuals, all of whom

>are very well known in their specialty areas. I regret that they declined

>to participate. "

>

>Later in the article Ruth Eng states that these fixed positions " contribute

>to increased division and hostility rather than to efforts to look for

>compromise and workable solutions to problems in our field. " Then the

>final paragraph suggests a strategy for change. " We must begin to start

>listening to each other. We must start to work together by openly

>discussing our differences if we are to solve the alcohol and drug abuse

>problems in our culture today. "

>

>Sociologists say cultures are resistant to change. Institutions share two

>related traits: an inordinate resistance to change, and a tendency to

>self-perpetuate. Individuals are like that too. With the unqualified

>statements to the effect that " AA is dogmatic and

>provincial " we hear an allegation and not good thinking with argument and

>fact. The same with charges of personality defects of Jack Trimpey or

>Stanton Peele or Fingarette as " dangerous " or insane. Let's call a truce

>and scrutinize the value of the techniques in each modality and the

>preponderance of the research which supports healthy living for clients

>and informed choice.

>

>Thanks.

>

>Carol Francey

>

>

>---

>Up With People!

>

>Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at

>Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

>

[Guest guest]

I just rejoined this group, and am having a problem reading the posts

through Netscape. The sentences run long across the Netscape Browser

and are very difficult to read. Can somebody help me with this problem?

Is there a way to resolve it through the browser itself? Happens mostly

with Hotmail and Dejanews email addresses.

Best,

Luanne

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 10:03 PM 5/7/99 +0100, you wrote:

>On another list I read a post by a woman coimplaining abt her involvement

>(wmployee or clinic mandated, I think) 'in a group where all they did was

>talk abt how God had helped them stop drinking.' she didnt say what the

>group was. i wrote replying that it sounded like she had been caught up with

>AA fanatics. An AA on the list immediately wrote angrily complaining of my

>'vicious attack'on AA - while grudgingly accepting my right to free speech.

This is strange. You can easily see that this guy has some very irrational

beliefs about AA and the discussion of AA;

1] There are no AA fanatiocs

2] If there are AA fanatics they must not be mentioned

and I would think almost certainly-

3] Criticism of AA must not be allowed

1 is clearly untrue- AA has members with all shades of keenness from

don't-give-a-shit to bloodcurdlingly fanatical.

2 is very strange but fits with AA being a religion. You must not mention

our paedophile priests...

3 is the same as 2. You must not criticise the church... (or call it a

church either!)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 10:03 PM 5/7/99 +0100, you wrote:

>On another list I read a post by a woman coimplaining abt her involvement

>(wmployee or clinic mandated, I think) 'in a group where all they did was

>talk abt how God had helped them stop drinking.' she didnt say what the

>group was. i wrote replying that it sounded like she had been caught up with

>AA fanatics. An AA on the list immediately wrote angrily complaining of my

>'vicious attack'on AA - while grudgingly accepting my right to free speech.

This is strange. You can easily see that this guy has some very irrational

beliefs about AA and the discussion of AA;

1] There are no AA fanatiocs

2] If there are AA fanatics they must not be mentioned

and I would think almost certainly-

3] Criticism of AA must not be allowed

1 is clearly untrue- AA has members with all shades of keenness from

don't-give-a-shit to bloodcurdlingly fanatical.

2 is very strange but fits with AA being a religion. You must not mention

our paedophile priests...

3 is the same as 2. You must not criticise the church... (or call it a

church either!)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 10:03 PM 5/7/99 +0100, you wrote:

>On another list I read a post by a woman coimplaining abt her involvement

>(wmployee or clinic mandated, I think) 'in a group where all they did was

>talk abt how God had helped them stop drinking.' she didnt say what the

>group was. i wrote replying that it sounded like she had been caught up with

>AA fanatics. An AA on the list immediately wrote angrily complaining of my

>'vicious attack'on AA - while grudgingly accepting my right to free speech.

This is strange. You can easily see that this guy has some very irrational

beliefs about AA and the discussion of AA;

1] There are no AA fanatiocs

2] If there are AA fanatics they must not be mentioned

and I would think almost certainly-

3] Criticism of AA must not be allowed

1 is clearly untrue- AA has members with all shades of keenness from

don't-give-a-shit to bloodcurdlingly fanatical.

2 is very strange but fits with AA being a religion. You must not mention

our paedophile priests...

3 is the same as 2. You must not criticise the church... (or call it a

church either!)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

What is this? I received 13 others like this.

Jan

No Subject

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Sonja..I was wondering if you got the mail to your e-mail address, I have

my presentation tomorrow and I would love to know if I can use your e-mail

as part of it.....

Thanks

Jan

[Guest guest]

hi Jan,

I have been out of the office untill today, so I only got your mail just

now, but I did reply .You are welcome to use my information.

Also good luck at your presentation tomorrow, let me know how it went.

take care

sonja

>

>Reply-To: ectopicpregnancyegroups

>To: <ectopicpregnancyegroups>

>Subject: Re: No Subject

>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 20:33:54 +1300

>

>Sonja..I was wondering if you got the mail to your e-mail address, I

>have

>my presentation tomorrow and I would love to know if I can use your e-mail

>as part of it.....

>

>Thanks

>Jan

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>and CD yields in the TOP 1% nationally for 10 years! FDIC insured.

>Click for FREE Information Kit. http://clickhere./click/1124

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/ectopicpregnancy

> - Simplifying group communications

>

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>

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______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Scroll Down (TTC Mentioned)

Dear Tara,

I hope you had a " nice " weekend. And, hopefully this will do the trick!

I'll keep my fingers crossed that this is IT!

Take Care,

[Guest guest]

Tara,

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SWIM! SWIM! SWIM! Good Luck and I'll keep my fingers crossed. I hope the

time goes by fairly quickly for you. I know the anticipation will drive me

mad but I'm hoping the holiday hustle and bustle will make it fly.

I haven't O yet. I took an OPK test yesterday with no luck. I'm skipping

today because I think I jumped the gun yesterday. I'll test again tomorrow

but I have a feeling it will be the end of the week. This is not the best

timing, though. My DH works for the railroad and he works strange shifts.

They aren't regular and lately they have been late so that means I will have

to stay up really late. Not a problem, though.

SWIM! SWIM! SWIM!

L

[Guest guest]

Thanks Tara!

scroll...

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I took another test this evening and I think the time is near so I'm hoping

in the next couple of days. I have two tests left and two from a previous

kit. (It's not expired yet.) That should get me through this.

We are going on a mini vacation (3 nights in Branson to see the Christmas

lights) that kinda makes up for our ultra-crummy one in Sept when we lost the

baby. I hope our next trip there will fill us with pleasant memories and not

sad ones. It will also help pass the time while we wait...

I'm sending fertile thoughts your way and keeping my fingers crossed for you

too!

L