Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die - especially of interest ...

[Guest guest]

Hi Kristy:

Thanks for your letter. I'm so glad someone got something out of it. Here

they all think I'm crazy. I'm working very hard to bring this news to the

people who need it. At the women's crisis center where I've gotten

counselling recently for rape, they still send battered women to AA if they

have alcohol issues. I'm working on an essay to point out the DANGERS of

this. In fact, I picked up a pamphlet written for battered women...

(parentheses are my comments)

Here's a section called Positive Affirmations

I am not to blame for being beaten and abused. (they often think they are, AA

will COMFIRM THAT THEY ARE - you picked him, etc.)

I am not causing my partner's abusive behavior (the big book runneth over with

contrary statements.... even in doing the fourth step it advises.... " we

resolutely looked for our own mistakes. Where had we been selfish, dishonest,

self-seeking frightened? Though a situation had not been entirely our fault,

we tried to disregard the other person involved entirely " - this is the cure-

all fouth step they advise which almost put a dear friend of mine in the

suicide unit!!!!)

I do not like being abused and do not have to take it.

I am a lovable valuable human being (AA will tell you you're insane, defective

and diseased!)

I can decide what is best for me (HA! Your sponsor will decide what's best

for you for the rest of your life!!! - not only that, but your sponsor is not

qualified to make decisions in her own life, but is qualified to make

decisions for your life)

I can make changes in my life to be healthy and safe.

I am a worthwhile person who can ask others for help.

As a human being and as a partner, I have the right to be treated with respect

and love.

I am absolutely outraged!

I'm reading the Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice . This is much more

useful in untangling the mess of the present based on the events in the past.

My last phase of therapy involves using various pages of the Big Book as

toilet paper.

Cheers

Apple

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[Guest guest]

At 07:07 AM 2/2/99 EST, AppleDTP@... wrote:

>I am absolutely outraged!

>

>I'm reading the Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice . This is much more

>useful in untangling the mess of the present based on the events in the past.

You will DEFINITELY continue to be outraged after reading Alice .

I've read that and most of her other books, and have seen Ken R. mention

her books.

She barely mentions 12-step programs in one of her books, but what she

did have to say was negative. The way she validates abuse will definitly

get you outraged about AA.

-----

http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley/seasons_greetings.html

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[Guest guest]

Welcome. . . there is nothing wrong with being assertive, standing up for your

rights and being your own person, sometimes it is very hard to learn to

practice this in everyday life and there are always people who liked you being

their doormat. . .but there are many more who will love and support you as a

whole human being and it is worth the struggle. Please give the BB away. .

..it is poison for your brain and your soul. . .

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

The courts probably would not blame the rape victim but they would send the

rapist to jail for two years and because the victim was 'drunk' she'd be

sentenced to a life sentence of AA. . .I would rather take the jail.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

So true! what was I thinking. . . I just have never thought of book burning

but in this case it would be appropriate! That and all the other 12-step, I

am such a low life but if I accept I will get better propaganda that I have

bought and tried to use to make some sense of things only to find out it just

made me sicker than I ever was. . .

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

And don't leave out all that mandatory hugging that you are subjected to. .

..but because 'the people in these rooms' are trying to help. . . you feel that

you should enjoy all this 'unconditional love', . . just thinking about it

makes my skin crawl.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/3/99 12:29:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, kayleighs@my-

dejanews.com writes:

> I don't think the people in rape crisis centers understand what AA does,

they

> have just heard that it is very successful, so we need to educate them.

This is true. I used to work at one. (did 300 hours community service after I

got busted.) We sent everyone to AA who would listen.

Now of course I know better. This was is 1990. But I suppose it is still going

on.

Henders

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hmmm... interesting account of your friend and her development in & after AA.

I just spoke to a friend who is a frequent flyer at the local suicide ward.

His sponsor insists that he do a thorough fourth step. A good moral cleansing

will allow God to shine in... it's just the opposite in his case I suspect. I

think the negativity of AA mirrors the negativity in his head. I don't know if

he will make it...

-Apple

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks for this most interesting and informative post.

Snowy

Kristy - Part of the myths and lies of AA have to do with AA's history.

>Most of what you have been told is untrue. What we today call " AA " was

>originally a right-wing Christian cult called the Oxford Groups. When

> G. (an unscrupulous stock market shark who went broke in the

>depression) and H. (a near-bankrupt proctologist) met in Akron

>in 1935, they were both members of the Oxford Groups. AA did not really

>fully splinter off from the Oxford Groups until late 1939, and many early

>AAs kept their affiliation with the Oxford Groups into the early 1930s.

>Now, the Oxford Groups was an upper-class, extremely right-wing religious

>cult, sort of like the 700 Club today - but even MORE right-wing. The

>leader of the Oxford Groups was a German-speaking Protestant minister

>(Lutheran, although he was tried for doctrinal deviations) by the name of

> Buchman. Buchman's most infamous moment might have been at a press

>conference in the Calvary Church annex in New York City in 1936, not long

>after the Berlin Olympics, which Buchman had attended. Buchman was asked

>by a reporter what he thought of the " new Germany. " He replied that " God

>has sent Hitler to Germany to save the country from communism. " Bill

> was almost certainly at that press conference, along with a couple

>dozen other young New York acolytes. Bill's regular Oxford Group " meeting "

>was held in the annex where Buchman gave that interview (the Oxford Groups

>devised the AA " meeting " with which you are familiar). Interestingly, while

>in Berlin, Buchman had met personally with Himmler, whom he described as " a

>great lad. " Himmler, of course, ran Hitler's Gestapo. AA is best

>understood as continuation, or a variation, of the Oxford Groups, whose

>members were called " Groupers, " or " Buchmanites. " The Oxford Groups were

>just one of dozens of right-wing, pseudo-religious, protofascist cults

>which flourished in the US (and other countries) during the Great

>Depression. The massive expansion of AA, and the whole war on drugs, is

>best understood as a reemergence of these pseudoreligous fascist

>organizations, whose current upsurge is related to the economic problems

>the US has experienced over the last several decades. If you look on the

>12-Steps and Politics list, you will find another Oxford Group tidbit I

>posted yesterday. If you understand a movement's historical origins, and

>its ideology, you understand a lot about what it does and where it is

>headed. AA's origin and ideology is tied to the worldwide fascist movement

>of the 1930s. The evidence is incontrovertible. Now you should be able to

>understand why right-wing drug warriors and big corporations, and of course

>the government, love AA so much.

>

>----------

>> From: Kristy2B@...

>> To: 12-step-freeegroups

>> Subject: Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die - especially of

>interest ...

>> Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 9:34 PM

>>

>> I am curious...what is a Buchmanite? I have never heard of that...

>>

>> Kristy

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[Guest guest]

Apple ~

This was really interesting. I have a friend who is a very petite blonde

and attended AA for years. Before AA, she was a real people-pleaser and one

of those women who plays dumb with men in order to manipulate them. She was

considered " cute " by the men. (I was often reaching for a barf bag).

She had an affair with one of her alcohol counselors. Later, she realized

she had been used, her trust had been betrayed and that she should have

reported him. What he did was certainly unprofessional. However, she never

did report him.

I have known her since we were kids and I never really liked her because she

is such a total phony, a liar, and a real gameplayer. She can never say

what she means about anything. She never gives an honest answer but tries

to get you to guess what it is she wants in any situation. God help you if

you are wrong because she will then gossip about how worthless you are

behind your back.

What I noticed after she got involved in AA was that she suddenly stopped

bleaching her hair and put on a lot of weight. She changed from " cute " to

" dumpy. " She became a different personality every time I saw her, and her

" rules " changed every few weeks. One week the rule was that no one could

use the F word. A few weeks later she was using it with every other word,

for example.

I eventually realized her personality had never been admirable, but was now

disintegrating. If you look up schizophrenia, it is defined as a

disintegration of the personality, (among other things).

At this point, 14 years after she first joined AA, she is living as a

dependent child with her stepmother. She never was able to function as an

independent adult, and AA made her even more dependent. I can see how that

happened as I read your posts here about " powerlessness, " not trusting one's

own judgment, etc.

She has been diagnosed as Manic Depressive and is on all kinds of

psychoactive drugs prescribed by the psychiatrist she eventually was driven

to consult. (Personally, and I'm not a psychiatrist but I've read a lot, I

think she is schizophrenic). Her boyfriend broke up with her because he

told her, " You are worse than ever. " Sadly, he is right.

I've learned a lot from this group which has been helpful to me and applies

to my situation, but I also see things in your posts which help me to

understand why my " friend " basically died. Her body is walking around, but

her mind died. Why be alive?

She would never join 12-Step-free. She would be afraid she would be

" manipulated " or brain-washed. She is very paranoid.

I think being thirteenth stepped can also be a rape of the mental

functioning.

Snowy

>Thirteenth steppers are elder members who manipulate newer members for sex.

>It's not too hard to manipulate a newer member as the whole program is

based

>on reorganizing the thinking of the members.

>Here's a short essay that will appear on my site www.AAdeprogramming.com on

>this very subject. (it still needs editing though... sorry)

>

>Predators in the rooms...

>

>The nature of the program itself is the very reason we so frequently find

this

>unsavory pest - the thirteenth stepper - lurking in the rooms..

>

>Although the author herself does not have a criminal mind many of AA's

members

>do, as they are former (or perhaps active criminals. They will immediately

>recognize the abuse and control potentials that the program offers.

>

>The author writes... " I guess it dawned on me during a particularly

>'spiritual' meeting. The topic was 'powerlessness'.

>

>Yuck.

>

>This particular meeting was attended by many lovely young women, and the

group

>members went around the circle attesting to how their lives had improved

once

>they had accepted their powerlessness. Young lady after young lady would

>proclaim " I'm powerless over people, places and things... and I've gotten

rid

>of all my justifiable anger... " Does that mean they've all forgiven those

>people who sexually abused/harrassed/assaulted them (as we usually find in

the

>history of most alcoholic women)????? Does this mean that they can't even

>recall those situations and refer to the residual anger, using it as a

point

>of reference to protect them from similar future incidents????

>

>I could see some of the elder members starting to salivate as one after the

>other, the women declared their powerlessness...

>

>One particularly perverted member whom I've nicknamed " The nice thober man

wid

>a lotta time in the program " loves to share things like " Powerlessness is

>quite empowering " .

>

>What does that mean?

>

>It means no more than his desire to penetrate subliminally the minds of the

>other members (particularly the women) so that he can enjoy a tasty

newcomer-

>of-the-week.

>

>Any organization that draws...

>1. desperate people

>2. teaches them to question their judgement

>3. teaches them to rely on someone else's judgement

>4. teaches personal powerlessness

>5. insists that victims look at their part only in painful situations

>6. stresses forgiveness of the wrongs done to the victim

>

>and

>

>7. is open to the public

>8. draws the sickest most imbalanced sector of society

>

>is a MAGNET for this type of behavior

>

>Interestingly, most meetings are held in churches, and this adds to the

>illusion of safety and goodness. The members are encouraged to share and

>reveal personal tidbits of their lives and history, all this benefits the

>predator.

>

>Members are encouraged to " let go & let God " .

>

>Rather, they, especially the women, should be encouraged to bring and extra

>large can of mace.

>

>It is often those members who push God heavily, that are the most

perverted.

>

>It's time to get your brain out of hock.

>

>It's time to DEPROGRAM.

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Recipes, relationships. Horoscopes, health.

>Fashion, fitness. If it's about women, it's at HomeArts.com.

>http://offers./click/212/0

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm busy lurking and trying to find my place between this and another recovery list and an anxiety support list.

I have to say ditto to the mandatory hugging, though. Who had the barf bag? The hugs were way too friendly to be coming from strangers, and why were most of them men?

I am enjoying reading the posts on this list and agree with a lot. (BTW) don't tell anyone, I burned a bible once. hell, here I come!

Noel

[Guest guest]

" Nolita " wrote:

>I'm busy lurking and trying to find my place between this and another

recovery list and an anxiety support list.

At least this list has a small/moderate amount of traffic.

>I have to say ditto to the mandatory hugging, though. Who had the barf

bag? The hugs were way too friendly to be coming from strangers, and why

were most of them men?

I presume you mean some of them were women - reminds me of being at the

GALANO AA club (Gay and lesbian ALANO), where I overheard a guy say " She

was a real thirtheenth stepper, she would even try to thirteenth-step

STRAIGHT women. "

>I am enjoying reading the posts on this list and agree with a lot. (BTW)

don't tell anyone, I burned a bible once. hell, here I come!

I promise not to warn the Devil. ;-)

>Noel

-----

http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley/seasons_greetings.html

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[Guest guest]

Apple,

Does this friend's sponsor insist he not take psychotropic meds? Or is that not applicable or not an issue?

Just wondering as I have heard a lot of that type of thing. Talk about killing someone!

Noel

Hmmm... interesting account of your friend and her development in & after AA.

I just spoke to a friend who is a frequent flyer at the local suicide ward.

His sponsor insists that he do a thorough fourth step. A good moral cleansing

will allow God to shine in... it's just the opposite in his case I suspect. I

think the negativity of AA mirrors the negativity in his head. I don't know if

he will make it...

-Apple

[Guest guest]

<<apple - I note you refer to 12-steppers as " groupers. " Neat. I haven't

heard that word used for them much. Is it common? I think it is so

interesting cause that is what the old Oxford Groupers use to call each

other - " groupers " ciao>>

Nope... the groupers here don't call themselves that. I've just been reading

too much subversive literature. I went to a meeting last night to collect

more data. A woman came up to me and confessed that she finds it very tiring

to talk to me. I replied, " so don't talk to me " . It is quite an

accomplishment for me to have gotten to the " I don't give a shit what you

think, I know who I am level " ....

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[Guest guest]

Apple ~

Thanks so much for this post. Again, you have given me valuable insights.

You consistently do that!

I also second your statement: " Just try making it through life without ever

getting angry. " It's a natural emotion. I wonder why people are so afraid

of it. If I am just talking about a situation that makes me angry I'm

certainly not a danger to anyone, but so many people can't tolerate even

that and instantly change the subject. In effect, they shame the one even

just calmly talking about being angry. It's really sick.

Snowy

>Depression, alcohol consumption, blaming self. I did all of these for

years.

>It was only when I started to " explode " (speak up, get angry, stand up for

>myself) versus implode (self-abuse) that my life improved (because I was

>imbalanced toward implosion and self-blame which AA further reinforced).

>AA can kill, and I don't know why the organization refuses to do a bloody

>tenth step on it's own program. Just try making it through life without

ever

>getting angry. HA!

>-Apple

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Fresh flowers are the perfect way to say " I love you " .

>Shipped direct from the grower, Proflowers.com has

>arrangements from $29.95 plus S & H.

>Click here: http://offers./click/216/0

>

>

[Guest guest]

Apple ~

>The

>program tries to produce a pseudo human being, one that never gets angry

and

>one that forgives everything and never holds perpetratos responsible for

their

>actions.

I'm wondering if the fact that this seems to apply to so much of society

right now is the result of the popularity of the 12-step programs. If I'm

being really naive here, please don't hurl too many rotten tomatoes. I'm

still trying to learn stuff you guys already know.

I've noticed this in yuppies, farmers, no one spectrum - unless you look at

the possible influence across-the-board of the 12-step crap.

If I were a criminal, I'd be in a Big Book study right now. I'd be

>looking for an individual who does the following:

>1. Believes that a strong faith in God will protect her/him. " Let go & let

>God "

>2. Is afraid of anger, beleiving that it will lead to relapse and

therefore

>jails, institutions and death.

>3. Practices forgiveness.

>4. Has " stopped fighting everyone and everything " .

>5. Looks for her/his part in situations and makes amends for it.

You are sure right about this. It reminds me of my former self when I was

trying to be " perfect " spiritually. I was assaulted. I made a damned good

victim, didn't I? It makes me sick.

>the big

>spiritual marshmallow of forgiveness which hovers above each meeting.

Excellent description!

>If I can find comfort in the fact that Santa Claus is real,

>and that he loves all former AAs why not believe it right?

Another good one!

>I guess this is why Marx or Jung (oops? I'm not an academic only a graphic

>artist) said that religion is the opiate of the masses.

Marx. I'm a fine artist, that is an artist in the field of " Fine Arts. "

Anyway, he was right.

Snowy

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[Guest guest]

Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die - especially of interest ...

Hello, All---

I've been too busy this past week to respond to Apple and Kristy and Nolita as I would like,

so I may end up making up for lost time with this post...<smile>

I was 13th-stepped twice in my first year in the Program. The first time was with an ex-boyfriend who was living with another woman at the time; he 12th-Stepped me into AA, and I guess he figured " why stop there? " . He knew I was still in love with him, and used it to his own advantage. In fact, he

later moved in with a woman he'd 12th-stepped while dating her--she had 60 days or so when they moved in together. I told my sponsor about it all, and she laughed about how he'd " cut a wide swath " in the 18 months he'd been sober--turns out she'd slept with him, too. That I'd fallen for his

sweet talk at a time when I felt particularly unloveable was an example of " self will run riot " and was proof that I needed the Program to survive--but his fucking his way through San Francisco AA was considered part of his boyish charm.

The second time was the real nightmare--he had 14 years sober, I had 9 months. My apartment was wrecked in the 1989 earthquake, and he suggested I move in. I was broke, and the crummy job I had wasn't paying me enough to get another place, so in a panic move, I did.He had seemed like a pretty mellow, fun guy all along, a free spirit; he rode motorcycles and was a photographer and threw huge open house parties every year. Nobody said anything to discourage me from doing it, although I should have taken heed of the fact that there were 13 steps leading up to his house...

From a fun, easygoing guy, he turned into a tyrant, hell-bent on molding me into what he wanted. I SWEAR there was nothing in his previous behavior that could have clued me in. I had a certain affection for him before, but four months later I chose to be homeless rather than continue living under the same roof. During one of our last fights--as I was loading up my stuff to leave--I yelled

" how dare you try to mold me, like I was just a piece of clay for you to shape as you like? " He replied as if I were stupid, the answer obvious: " You don't know who you really are, or what you want to be, so why shouldn't I decide for you? " He MEANT it, too. I was too stunned to tell him he was evil.

After I had moved out, AA's went out of their way to tell me how good it was that I'd gotten away from him. Three reliable sources told me that he had molested his teenage daughter, and admitted as much at a men's meeting (I'd suspected it--he wanted me to be very " little-girl " , and he had told me about how his daughter " acted out " with sex and drugs during her teens to the point where he had kicked her out of the house). Not one of them had told me ANY of this before I'd moved in--they'd acted bemused, but nobody had warned me that I was moving in with a manipulative, controlling, sexually predatory individual. I did get told after the fact that nobody told me these things because they assumed I wouldn't listen--my " self-will " had " run riot " .

People who had talked at length about how wonderful the fellowship was and how gratifying it was to help others stay sober just stood by and let me walk into a terrible situation without saying a word--in fact, the whole situation was treated as a joke and gossiped about as it was going on. When I came out of it, I was told to work steps, pray, practice acceptance, forgive, understand my role in it. How do you " understand your role " in having ice water thrown in your face on the one morning of the week you get to sleep in, because the man who " loves " you and is " concerned about your recovery " simply doesn't want you to stay in bed past eight? How do you " practice acceptance " toward someone who insists that you must tell him all about how you were sexually abused as a child, and that you are in denial when you truthfully tell him no such things happened?

I didn't start to realize it until about that time, but I am pretty damn tough mentally and emotionally.

I had enough wits about me to know that I was being ill-treated, and that I had done nothing to deserve it; I knew I was being manipulated in a ghastly way by someone who felt perfectly justified in doing so in the name of " love " and " recovery " . I was a complete wimp, compared to what I am like now, but I had enough guts to get out of an abusive situation. I didn't have enough guts, however, to

challenge how Programthink and the social dynamics that are present in " the Rooms " provided perfect cover for both men's activities. I saw women who were not tough get destroyed by predatory men, and when they went out and drank again it was their inability to " work the program " or " follow suggestions " that was hauled forth as an excuse, not the fact that they had been abused and betrayed by some of the very people they were supposed to trust the most.

As for anger---I love anger! It kept me sober in AA for over four years. I didn't work the damn steps, I quit seeing my sponsor after I found out she'd been Doing the Deed with the same guy I was, and I never prayed to my nonexistent Higher Power. Instead, I set out to prove everyone who had ever predicted I would drink again wrong. I was so pissed off I decided I'd show them a thing or two--so I went to meetings and didn't drink. I wasn't going to give them the satisfaction of seeing me come back, slobbering and crying and remorseful. Getting righteously pissed off is a good thing. Everyone who tried to tell me that I needed to work another step, or learn humility, or let go of my resentments just fired me up again, and I was going to SHOW THEM! <laugh> I stayed furious long enough to actually recover. Guess I showed them, after all...

There is an extremely sick element in AA, even in these groups of deeply fucked up people, that loves watching others fail so they have something to feel good about. They want their heroes and their gurus and glowing success stories, but they don't want too many of them. Failures are required to keep a goodly portion of the AA population feeling good about their own " progress, not perfection " . When you're a terminal screw-up whose days center around drinking bad coffee in church basements and listening to the same shit over and over again, you've got to take your amusements any way you can, I suppose. The people who seemed the most poisonous in this regard--and I could name names in San Francisco, I could--had at least ten years sobriety, and

usually quite a bit more. The second 13er I mentioned had 14 years at the time, and his life was a mess when looked at more closely. There was another guy with 25 years, who was the most vicious gossip I'd ever met, and he loved to play people off each other, but was still revered for his 25 years. They could be friendly toward the shaking newcomer, but once you got some time in and things started to look up for you, watch out...

That's all of the ranting I'm up for tonight<yawn>. Welcome to the new listmembers--if there's anything you want to know or discuss, ask away. And Henders! Congrats on the job, girl!

Cheers---

---

[Guest guest]

Apple wrote:

> Here's the rub...

> I've been angry since the day I walked into AA. How can one NOT be angry upon

> realizing the abusive and damaging nature of the " program " . However anytime I

> said anything contrary or angry, I was automatically dismissed by the other

> members, since anger and rebellion are bad! When I share how AA does a

> disservice to survivors of abuse, OF COURSE my share is backed by emotion,

> because it's such an emotional issue to me that people SUFFER NEEDLESSLY! The

> result of my " share " is that people draw away from me because of the emotion,

> and they ignore the content.

>

> Now the abusers who disguise themselves as Big Book thumpers, can say

> something sinister, and as long as it's delivered in a calm and collected

> voice, their audience listens intently... " I used to beat my three children

> senselessly and lie to everyone. But thanks to this God-given program which I

> joined a month ago, I've changed completely " .

>

> It's sick! Me and other caring folks are seen as whackos who don't " get it " ,

> and the whackos are seen as the heros.

>

> One of my essays on the site will be called " The Steps - God's magic eraser or

> Only a Mildly Effective Ritual " . These criminals and con-artists pretend that

> the steps have turned them from criminal to " good-guy " overnight. Do you

> REALLY BELIEVE that a con-artist of 25 years changes completely after doing a

> thorough 4th step?

>

> I would venture to guess that there's something sinister about the Big Book

> Thumpers.... Probably because there's something sinister about the Big Book.

> Many times, it's these " thumpers " who pretend to be reformed, but continue to

> cheat on their wives, or engage in some other scum-bag behavior, but they can

> easily brush it off with " It's a defect I'm still working on " . ***As long as

> the delivery is calm and free of strong emotion, anything flies***.

>

> This is why I think the Internet is the medium for me. Many people just

> ignore what I say in the meetings because I have trouble hiding my true

> disdain for this program which has hurt me, and so many of my friends!

> -Apple

>

--------------------------------------------------

Apple, I have agreed with just about all you've written since you joined

12sf (except for the endorsement of " The Courage to Heal " ; I think that book and

the subculture it spawned are as whacked-out and damaging as AA, but that's

fruit for another discussion) and I thank you for your energy and eloquence.

Just to add my 2 cents though -- while AA as a cult is repulsive in all the ways

you describe, it is still in and of itself a voluntary fellowship, meaning AA

itself does nothing to stop people from leaving (head trips and dire predictions

notwithstanding) once they get tired of it and/or realize it's B.S. Helping

people realize it's B.S. and that they can be happy, healthy, and sober without

it is of course a worthy pursuit. But much more repulsive than the step-culture

is the coercion into AA/NA of unwilling people, people who already know it's

B.S., people who have _already solved their substance abuse problems_, by courts

and EAP's who demand that you prove you're " working on your recovery " (the

12-step way) or lose your job, custody of your kids, etc. I for one was was

threatened with being fired if I didn't attend at least 5 AA meetings a week,

PLUS talk about what I was " learning " about how to handle my " addiction " ,

despite dozens of random tests administered since my original indiscretion

showing I wasn't using anything (and therefore not addicted to anything) and no

job performance problems. When I told the EAP that I couldn't relate to AA

philosophy, and that I was confident in my ability to be " drug-and-alcohol-free "

on duty as required and was willing to be tested daily to prove it, I was told

I'd better " open my mind " to what they were teaching me in " treatment " if I

wanted to be allowed back to work. After I filed suit (on religious coercion

grounds) I was " allowed " to go to SMART Recovery instead of AA (while continuing

with the asinine and amateurish outpatient " addiction treatment " ) but it was

still the same mindfuck: I was not allowed to take responsibility for correcting

my own behavior, but was told I MUST have the help of a " group. " I envy people

who can say " The hell with this! " and walk away. Those of us who are forced by

others to " do recovery " while choking on it face an additional form of

oppression.

~Railroad Rita

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Oddly enough, I have seen a letter by to an AA critic saying that he

considered important that AA *did* " take our own inventory " !

Of course, rather than actually being a commitment to responding to

criticism, it was actually a commitment to keeping things exactly as they

are; autoflagellation.

Pete

> Depression, alcohol consumption, blaming self. I did all of these for years.

> It was only when I started to " explode " (speak up, get angry, stand up for

> myself) versus implode (self-abuse) that my life improved (because I was

> imbalanced toward implosion and self-blame which AA further reinforced).

> AA can kill, and I don't know why the organization refuses to do a bloody

> tenth step on it's own program. Just try making it through life without ever

> getting angry. HA!

> -Apple

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Fresh flowers are the perfect way to say " I love you " .

> Shipped direct from the grower, Proflowers.com has

> arrangements from $29.95 plus S & H.

> Click here: http://offers./click/216/0

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kristy,

Read pg 69 then pg 96 this is a 13 stepper and pretty much the whole program.

Judie

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi apple, folks

I think this masochistic XA style is primarily aimed at women I think - or

at least, there is also a flipside to men of the importance of not having

the defects of fear, laziness, etc and hence the importance of " standing

one's ground " . I am a great believer in assertiveness, but in *real*

assertiveness, which is basically abt trying to reach the " win win " scenario

where everyones' needs, views and feelings are considered and respected and

one seeks what one believes is *fair* rather than insisting that one gets

one way. The truth is, the " defect " business can be used to justify almost

*any* behavior, which is why they can make these ludicrous claims that it

resembles CBT; they can make it resemble anything they want it to.

Pete

> Yes , and this is exactly why I like to piss off the groupers.

Whatever I > do, they think it's their own fault. It just has to be done to

a great enough

> extent that they realize that living this way is an impossibility. The

> program tries to produce a pseudo human being, one that never gets angry

and > one that forgives everything and never holds perpetratos responsible

for their > actions. If I were a criminal, I'd be in a Big Book study right

now. I'd be > looking for an individual who does the following:

> 1. Believes that a strong faith in God will protect her/him. " Let go &

let > God "

> 2. Is afraid of anger, beleiving that it will lead to relapse and

therefore > jails, institutions and death.

> 3. Practices forgiveness. > 4. Has " stopped fighting everyone and

everything " . > 5. Looks for her/his part in situations and makes amends for

it. > > Really, it's the perfect crime. Let's say I pick out a victim at a

meeting, > follow him/her home and attack the person. There's a good chance

I'll get > away with it because of the indoctrination of the above beliefs.

The victims > first reaction will be to stop, drop & pray. Then " let go of

the justifiable > anger " and forgive. > > Frequently I hear at meetings a

confession like " I killed my baby " , " I spent > time in jail for rape " , " I

embezzelled hundreds of thousands of dollars " . > (these are all actual

confessions). These facts just get sucked into the big > spiritual

marshmallow of forgiveness which hovers above each meeting. Nowhere > else

would these confessions fail to raise an eyebrow the way that they do in >

AA meetings. In fact, one thing that I hear frequently, is... > " back in the

day, I would have rather been right than been happy " > What does this mean?

Well, it means that if living a lie can allow me to be > happy, that's what

I'll choose. > > Good news huh? If I can find comfort in the fact that

Santa Claus is real, > and that he loves all former AAs why not believe it

right? > > I guess this is why Marx or Jung (oops? I'm not an academic only

a graphic > artist) said that religion is the opiate of the masses. > >

------------------------------------------------------------------------ >

Fresh flowers are the perfect way to say " I love you " . > Shipped direct from

the grower, Proflowers.com has > arrangements from $29.95 plus S & H. > Click

here: http://offers./click/216/0 > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Jim

> Was there any discussion of reducing genetic diversity causing

> vulnerability to extinction of the species?

Yes, there was something on diversity - but unfortunately, the first speaker

who said little comprehensible let alone interesting, droned on for so long

she left little time for the second speaker, who did mention this. She

pointed out that what one considered genetically " defective " was in fact an

opinion, and that there was no limit to how narrow a definition of

" perfection " could be - and the push to the sociallly constructed " perfect "

baby would inevitably threatening diversity, and which she considered more

significant than the development of cloning.

Where my ears *really* pricked up, was the great popularity of the eugenics

moevement amongst individuals and groups of every political persuasion, but

especially its popularity not only with Nazis but

Marxist-Leninists; and the frank admission by a Swedish friend that their

" Caring Society " with generous Welfare State, [and its own severe WoD, -PW]

was a form of " National Socialism " where its citizens could vote.

P.

>

> Pete Watts wrote:

> >

> > Oddly enough, I have seen a letter by to an AA critic saying that he

> > considered important that AA *did* " take our own inventory " !

> >

> > Of course, rather than actually being a commitment to responding to

> > criticism, it was actually a commitment to keeping things exactly as they

> > are; autoflagellation.

> >

> > Pete

> >

> >

> >

> > > Depression, alcohol consumption, blaming self. I did all of these for

years.

> > > It was only when I started to " explode " (speak up, get angry, stand up

for

> > > myself) versus implode (self-abuse) that my life improved (because I was

> > > imbalanced toward implosion and self-blame which AA further reinforced).

> > > AA can kill, and I don't know why the organization refuses to do a bloody

> > > tenth step on it's own program. Just try making it through life without

ever

> > > getting angry. HA!

> > > -Apple

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > Fresh flowers are the perfect way to say " I love you " .

> > > Shipped direct from the grower, Proflowers.com has

> > > arrangements from $29.95 plus S & H.

> > > Click here: http://offers./click/216/0

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

HI TIna

nice to see you here.

very wise words; docs not onnly undermedicate depression by not giving meds

when theyt should, they often dont use high enough doses either; the

recommended doses by the company for some ppl are too low.

One thing - the friend who celebrates time " out of sobrierty " - I take it

that is actually moderate, rather than problematic drinking?

Of course that is the joke, that AA has stolen the word sobrierty to mean

abstinent when it actually means " not drunk " .

P.

> AppleDTP@... wrote:

> >

> > Friend does take meds, they're not working anymore though.... Sponsor is not

> > prohibiting them. I have another friend who did a 45 pg. fourth step and

felt

> > suicidal for weeks. She came into AA after her 25 year old marriage broke

up.

> > Husband found younger gal on Internet. Sponsor tells this friend to do

> > thorough fearless inventory, writing down every resentment. Then sponsor

> > shows her her part in them... How does that provide relief for someone in

> > excruciating emotional pain?

> > -Apple

>

>

>

>

> Hi,

>

> Coming out of lurker mode. There is such a thing as too much medicine--

> and I don't mean drugs, I mean institutionalization. The more one is

> hospitalized, the lower the self-esteem-- nurses act as if repeat

> patients are guilty of the " sin " of unhappiness. I have a friend who

> measures his " anniversaries " not by sobriety, but by how many years he's

> managed to stay out of sobriety.

>

> Depression is very often undermedicated-- even by psychiatrists. The

> trick is to keep trying until you find one smart enough to realize it

> isn't your fault that you're depressed. A fourth step during a

> depression-- especially when the fault seems to have been the

> husband's-- sounds not only unhelpful, but sadistic. Another case of

> blaming the patient.

>

>

> BTW-- sponsor has no right to allow or prohibit *any* meds, or alcohol.

>

>

>

> Tina B.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Fresh flowers are the perfect way to say " I love you " .

> Shipped direct from the grower, Proflowers.com has

> arrangements from $29.95 plus S & H.

> Click here: http://offers.egroups.net/click/216/0

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/5/99 2:35:23 AM Pacific Standard Time, AppleDTP@...

writes:

> Many people just

> ignore what I say in the meetings....

Apple,

What, you're still going? <gasp>

Why, pray tell?

Henders

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/4/99 11:26:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,

SnowyEagle@... writes:

> " Just try making it through life without ever

> getting angry. " It's a natural emotion. I wonder why people are so afraid

> of it.

Apparently you don't work in a post office.

Henders

------------------------------------------------------------------------