Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die - especially of interest ...

February 6, 1999

In a message dated 2/5/99 2:35:23 AM Pacific Standard Time, AppleDTP@...

writes:

>

> Now the abusers who disguise themselves as Big Book thumpers, can say

> something sinister, and as long as it's delivered in a calm and collected

> voice, their audience listens intently... " I used to beat my three children

> senselessly and lie to everyone. But thanks to this God-given program which

> I

> joined a month ago, I've changed completely " .

>

> It's sick! Me and other caring folks are seen as whackos who don't " get

it " ,

>

> and the whackos are seen as the heros.

Right on, right on, right on.

Henders

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 6, 1999

So true . . in meeting after meeting you would hear public confessions of

horrible acts and then everybody would nod and " but that's ok because I am

sober now " how can that be ok. . .I wanted to jump up and scream 'but you're

still a child molester, wife beater etc.' but I never had the nerve.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 6, 1999

Henders ~

Good one! ) No, I don't work in a post office.

Snowy

>In a message dated 2/4/99 11:26:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,

>SnowyEagle@... writes:

>

>> " Just try making it through life without ever

>> getting angry. " It's a natural emotion. I wonder why people are so

afraid

>> of it.

>

>Apparently you don't work in a post office.

>

>Henders

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 6, 1999

Or was the BB influenced by cog therapy?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 6, 1999

At 10:49 PM 2/6/99 EST, you wrote:

>Or was the BB influenced by cog therapy?

I read that cognitive therapy was invented in the 1950's by Albert Ellis,

more than a decade after the BB was published.

This is why the Big Book and the whole AA program fails- it tries to deal

with the problem of addictive behaviour from a religious perspective as a

moral issue (character defects, moral inventory, admitting our " wrongs " ,

etc) and thus distorts the nature of the situation, instead of recognising

that the problem exists in the thinking and behaviour, which cognitive

therapy does recognise.

Joe Berenbaum

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 7, 1999

<<> " Just try making it through life without ever

> getting angry. " It's a natural emotion. I wonder why people are so afraid

> of it.

Apparently you don't work in a post office.

Henders>>

HA ha!! I did have to kick a postal worker out of my house (I had agreed to

let him move in, but backed out at the last minute after he'd moved all his

stuff in - long story), and he happened to be wearing a tee shirt that day

which showed a mailman wielding a machine gun. The bubble said " who you

callin' disgruntled " . It was a scary day!

-Apple

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 7, 1999

<<> Many people just

> ignore what I say in the meetings....

Apple,

What, you're still going? <gasp>

Why, pray tell?

Henders>>

To collect data for my web site silly! Look for it next week...

www.AAdeprogramming.com My buddy and I HTML-ed all weekend. What a riot. I'm

in graphics so it looks really hot!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 7, 1999

> Or was the BB influenced by cog therapy?

Not that either. To my amazement Fred Rotgers on addict-l (by no means an

unuquivocal AA supporter - he promotes Moderation Management) said that CBT

and 12 step were similar; many ppl do, but only by the most ludicrous of

twistings that I'm sure are totally not what was intended by the authors.

I guess youre another XA subversive, mr. anonymous. Was it you tried to

pursue that " Excercises of Ignatius = CBT " bullcrap a while back?

Whoever it was I guess recokoned if they could pull that one they could

then go on to the 12sp, which probably does resemble EoI, as theyre both

religious. where do you guys get off?

My apologies if I've got you wrong, but why do you XA creeps not fuck off

to the vast vistas where you can proselytise to your hearts content?

Do you bastards want everyone on the whole planet?

Dont bother to answer - Ive heard with my own ears that many of you do.

Pete

----------------------

" Never name the well from which you will not drink. "

- n Zimmer Bradley

PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT/INFO LIST:

http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 7, 1999

Hi Carol

It was me who wrote this - thanks for the response, even if it was to Tina.

I've been lucky in that I now have a new roomie who's a really nice guy and

shares interests in chess, table tennis, and women <g>.

He's actually pretty shy ( I'm pretty certain he's a virgin). I am going to

try a little matchmaking with the old friend who was being harrassed by her

AA ex; vibes are pretty good.

" Go to lectures " - I just walked out of one! 8-O

P.

> Tina, You can make the community your place to get unlonely. We are all

> lonely to some degree and most of us live with that. If we are in contact

> with others occassionally we are not lonely for that time. Others like

> their alone time and enjoy connecting with an author, TV, creating, music

> etc. Get involved with others who are not focused on their weight and the

> implication that having it makes them defective as people. Go to lectures,

> join a political group, join a choir, volunteer and get active. It is funny

> how when you focus outside of yourself and stop ruminating that your mood

> lifts. Its well worth the effort. Take care, CArol

>

> At 09:57 PM 2/7/99 +0000, you wrote:

> >Hi Tina, folks

> >

> >Well I have to out myself and admit that I went to a meeting a couple of

> >weeks ago - for a similar reason.

> >

> >I dont know of any secular support-group that would take an overeater that

> >has the number of meetings of OA. London's a big, lonely place; I find it

> >hard to make friends and I get terribly lonely. The only lover I have had

> >in 15 years I met thru OA.

> >

> >One thing I'm becoming more in touch with is how saturated in XA I still

> >am. I think you are still a practising Catholic, and I guess for many ppl

> >they Church is a positive thing providing a source of community and love -

> >but the religious abuse has put me off it for good - but set me up to be a

> >sucker for a cult like XA.

> >

> >Time and again I walk into situations I should run away from.

> >

> >Am I strong enough to go to OA and not get sucked back in to the garbage?

> >

> >I hope so. there is evidence religious faith can be a postive force; I

> >have even had the odd experience a bit like 's Hot Flash.

> >

> >The awful thing abt XA is it's so authoritarian. It happens to be

> >Protestant as opposed to Catholic authoritarian but authoritarian

> >nevertheless.

> >

> >The friend who introduced me to OA, who had also been AA, still goes

> >occassionally but also goes to a militant, in-yer-face Fat WOmen's Group

> >where they wear tee shirts with " Fat!So? " on them. From the thesis and

> >counterthesis a new synthesis emerges that the Dialectical Materialists

> >would be proud of.

> >

> >I'm thinking of doing that - but my counterthesis is this group.

> >

> >P.

> >

> >> Pete Watts wrote:

> >> >

> >> > HI TIna

> >> >

> >> > nice to see you here.

> >> >

> >> > very wise words; docs not onnly undermedicate depression by not giving

> meds

> >> > when theyt should, they often dont use high enough doses either; the

> >> > recommended doses by the company for some ppl are too low.

> >> >

> >> > One thing - the friend who celebrates time " out of sobrierty " - I take it

> >> > that is actually moderate, rather than problematic drinking?

> >>

> >> Hi Pete,

> >>

> >> Good to be here. I misworded my statement-- my friend measures his

> >> " healthy " or, I guess, " good " time by counting the years he's managed

> >> to stay out of mental hospitals. And although he goes to very, very few

> >> meetings-- almost none-- he has not had a drink or a drug for almost 5

> >> years. He and I agree that there are some things worse than drinking,

> >> even problematic drinking-- and suicidal depression is one of them!

> >>

> >> For the sake of honesty, I should tell the list that I do go to

> >> meetings-- more for mental health than anything else. Plus, I like to

> >> make them mad by the things I say. I am a self-proclaimed AA heretic.

> >> What enables me to go with any kind of conscience is my religious

> >> sensibilities, which run deep. I don't recommend AA to agnostics or

> >> atheists for that reason.

> >>

> >> I am getting a lot out of this list. I have been asked repeatedly by my

> >> doctor and my thrapist to become one myself, and the short, dirty way is

> >> to be a CADC counselor. I can't wait to infiltrate the ranks... I

> >> don't hate AA, (I did for a while) but I have not read any posts here I

> >> couldn't agree with.

> >>

> >> Tina B.

> >>

> >> \

> >>

> >> >

> >> > Of course that is the joke, that AA has stolen the word sobrierty to mean

> >> > abstinent when it actually means " not drunk " .

> >> >

> >> > P.

> >> >

> >> > > AppleDTP@... wrote:

> >> > > >

> >> > > > Friend does take meds, they're not working anymore though....

> Sponsor is not

> >> > > > prohibiting them. I have another friend who did a 45 pg. fourth

> step and felt

> >> > > > suicidal for weeks. She came into AA after her 25 year old

> marriage broke up.

> >> > > > Husband found younger gal on Internet. Sponsor tells this friend

> to do

> >> > > > thorough fearless inventory, writing down every resentment. Then

> sponsor

> >> > > > shows her her part in them... How does that provide relief for

> someone in

> >> > > > excruciating emotional pain?

> >> > > > -Apple

> >> > >

> >> > > Hi,

> >> > >

> >> > > Coming out of lurker mode. There is such a thing as too much

> medicine--

> >> > > and I don't mean drugs, I mean institutionalization. The more one is

> >> > > hospitalized, the lower the self-esteem-- nurses act as if repeat

> >> > > patients are guilty of the " sin " of unhappiness. I have a friend who

> >> > > measures his " anniversaries " not by sobriety, but by how many years

> he's

> >> > > managed to stay out of sobriety.

> >> > >

> >> >

> >>

> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> One Day Science Will Create A Natural Solution For Hairloss

> >> That day is today. HairGenesis. The world’s first naturally

> >> derived and proven treatment for Male Pattern Hairloss.

> >> Click Here: http://offers./click/217/0

> >>

February 7, 1999

> I went to a meeting last night to collect

> more data. A woman came up to me and confessed that she finds it very tiring

> to talk to me. I replied, " so don't talk to me " . It is quite an

> accomplishment for me to have gotten to the " I don't give a shit what you

> think, I know who I am level " ....

Hi Apple, folks

I had an experience like this. I went to an OA meeting run by a dedicated

grouper; I'll bet my ass she was AA before she was OA; this type always is.

she put a lot of effort into the meeting, even putting flowers on the

table.

I was terribly depressed and was getting lots of flashbacks of my sexual

abuse. I had decided that I had no reason to be ashamed of what someone

else did to me and it was important for my self-validation that I talk abt

this with other ppl. I didnt choose the right place tho.

I talked abt it in the meeting. Any fool could see that I was really

distressed and was very vulnerable. This woman invited me for coffee

afterwards with no hint of what was to follow - she didnt think it right I

had talked abt that in the meeting, and that the Traditions said the

meeting was for " spreading the message " and not for talking abt things like

that. I think I said I'd talk abt precisely what I wanted to; she said, in

that case she'd find it difficult to relate to me, and I said that she

didnt have to have anything to do with me if she didnt want to. She seemed

pretty phased by that and left.

I was mighty pissed afterwards when what she was trying to pull sunk in.

In OA there are THREE currencies of status, of which Time is only one and

the least important. she almost certainly had lots of AA time, but hardly

anyone gets any time in OA so my record of abt 2 yrs was as good as her OA

probably. The second is Weight Loss, and at that time I was the undisputed

champion, in fact the London record holder. The third and most important is

you current weight level, and mine was good. The adulation I normally got

at that time was amazing; I knew one group sec who curled up in fear when I

walked in because of my reputation, and all I had to do was say " It was

decided at Intergroup that Hazelden literature should be put on a separate

table from OA literature " to have her leap up and move the offending books.

I will add that this was entirely self-imposed subservience; I can honestly

say that I never actually tried to pull " rank " on anyone (I was merely

informing the group of what had been said at Intergroup), in fact I was

always terrified of being judged by them!

The second irony is that my first sponsor always got very angry when

specialist groups on sex were held as he emphasised the importance of

garaunteeing a loving supportive response after such disclosures!

I think there was sexism here actually, in that I said to other ppl , and

they confirmed, that ppl had talked more explicitly than I had done; I

caught a fundie grouper, but I think my gender didnt help either.

Pete

----------------------

" Never name the well from which you will not drink. "

- n Zimmer Bradley

PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT/INFO LIST:

http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 9, 1999

Tina, You can make the community your place to get unlonely. We are all

lonely to some degree and most of us live with that. If we are in contact

with others occassionally we are not lonely for that time. Others like

their alone time and enjoy connecting with an author, TV, creating, music

etc. Get involved with others who are not focused on their weight and the

implication that having it makes them defective as people. Go to lectures,

join a political group, join a choir, volunteer and get active. It is funny

how when you focus outside of yourself and stop ruminating that your mood

lifts. Its well worth the effort. Take care, CArol

At 09:57 PM 2/7/99 +0000, you wrote:

>Hi Tina, folks

>

>Well I have to out myself and admit that I went to a meeting a couple of

>weeks ago - for a similar reason.

>

>I dont know of any secular support-group that would take an overeater that

>has the number of meetings of OA. London's a big, lonely place; I find it

>hard to make friends and I get terribly lonely. The only lover I have had

>in 15 years I met thru OA.

>

>One thing I'm becoming more in touch with is how saturated in XA I still

>am. I think you are still a practising Catholic, and I guess for many ppl

>they Church is a positive thing providing a source of community and love -

>but the religious abuse has put me off it for good - but set me up to be a

>sucker for a cult like XA.

>

>Time and again I walk into situations I should run away from.

>

>Am I strong enough to go to OA and not get sucked back in to the garbage?

>

>I hope so. there is evidence religious faith can be a postive force; I

>have even had the odd experience a bit like 's Hot Flash.

>

>The awful thing abt XA is it's so authoritarian. It happens to be

>Protestant as opposed to Catholic authoritarian but authoritarian

>nevertheless.

>

>The friend who introduced me to OA, who had also been AA, still goes

>occassionally but also goes to a militant, in-yer-face Fat WOmen's Group

>where they wear tee shirts with " Fat!So? " on them. From the thesis and

>counterthesis a new synthesis emerges that the Dialectical Materialists

>would be proud of.

>

>I'm thinking of doing that - but my counterthesis is this group.

>

>P.

>

>> Pete Watts wrote:

>> >

>> > HI TIna

>> >

>> > nice to see you here.

>> >

>> > very wise words; docs not onnly undermedicate depression by not giving

meds

>> > when theyt should, they often dont use high enough doses either; the

>> > recommended doses by the company for some ppl are too low.

>> >

>> > One thing - the friend who celebrates time " out of sobrierty " - I take it

>> > that is actually moderate, rather than problematic drinking?

>>

>> Hi Pete,

>>

>> Good to be here. I misworded my statement-- my friend measures his

>> " healthy " or, I guess, " good " time by counting the years he's managed

>> to stay out of mental hospitals. And although he goes to very, very few

>> meetings-- almost none-- he has not had a drink or a drug for almost 5

>> years. He and I agree that there are some things worse than drinking,

>> even problematic drinking-- and suicidal depression is one of them!

>>

>> For the sake of honesty, I should tell the list that I do go to

>> meetings-- more for mental health than anything else. Plus, I like to

>> make them mad by the things I say. I am a self-proclaimed AA heretic.

>> What enables me to go with any kind of conscience is my religious

>> sensibilities, which run deep. I don't recommend AA to agnostics or

>> atheists for that reason.

>>

>> I am getting a lot out of this list. I have been asked repeatedly by my

>> doctor and my thrapist to become one myself, and the short, dirty way is

>> to be a CADC counselor. I can't wait to infiltrate the ranks... I

>> don't hate AA, (I did for a while) but I have not read any posts here I

>> couldn't agree with.

>>

>> Tina B.

>>

>> \

>>

>> >

>> > Of course that is the joke, that AA has stolen the word sobrierty to mean

>> > abstinent when it actually means " not drunk " .

>> >

>> > P.

>> >

>> > > AppleDTP@... wrote:

>> > > >

>> > > > Friend does take meds, they're not working anymore though....

Sponsor is not

>> > > > prohibiting them. I have another friend who did a 45 pg. fourth

step and felt

>> > > > suicidal for weeks. She came into AA after her 25 year old

marriage broke up.

>> > > > Husband found younger gal on Internet. Sponsor tells this friend

to do

>> > > > thorough fearless inventory, writing down every resentment. Then

sponsor

>> > > > shows her her part in them... How does that provide relief for

someone in

>> > > > excruciating emotional pain?

>> > > > -Apple

>> > >

>> > > Hi,

>> > >

>> > > Coming out of lurker mode. There is such a thing as too much

medicine--

>> > > and I don't mean drugs, I mean institutionalization. The more one is

>> > > hospitalized, the lower the self-esteem-- nurses act as if repeat

>> > > patients are guilty of the " sin " of unhappiness. I have a friend who

>> > > measures his " anniversaries " not by sobriety, but by how many years

he's

>> > > managed to stay out of sobriety.

>> > >

>> >

>>

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> One Day Science Will Create A Natural Solution For Hairloss

>> That day is today. HairGenesis. The world’s first naturally

>> derived and proven treatment for Male Pattern Hairloss.

>> Click Here: http://offers./click/217/0

>>

February 15, 1999

jovian f. wrote: