Guest guest Posted April 23, 1999 Report Share Posted April 23, 1999 In a message dated 4/23/99 2:05:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, angelina@... writes: > I'm on a diet and alcohol is just wasted fat and calories - so I don't drink > anything - So true, true, true. Fat is the densest source of calories, with 9 calories per gram, and alcohol, while not a nutrient, provides 7 calories per gram. Meanwhile, carbohydrates and protein each provide 4 calories per gram. I learned this stuff when I lost 40 pounds. No AA program in the world could ever induce me to quit drinking, but when I found this out about alcohol, it was much easier to quit. Vain female that I am. :>) Henders ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 1999 Report Share Posted April 23, 1999 hi kim, about a week ago i was feeling like i wanted to go to a bar and get one drink and walk out. not becasue i really wanted a drink or was curious as to what it would be like. i cringe at the thought of the smell and memeories i have of it as it is. No, i wanted drink to end my current streak of time abstnent (going on 3 years). i got sober as i was attending aa (no credit to program or 12-steps mind you. in fact , i was sober in spite of thsoe things) and i was feeling like for once i wanted my sobriety to be inarguably by my doing. it would for once and all be to my credit. but right now as i sit here writing this, i see a couple things. that idea was based more on my anger at 12-steppers than anything else. all thsoe things i thought would be justifed by the act of having one drink and stopping (agian) were never illegitamate. I did get sober by my will power and choice. i decided i didnt want to suffer any more as i did when i drank, and that i had enough. that was my choice and to my credit. yea, i could pick up a drink today and stop. but it really wouldnt prove anything. Most importantly, it couldnt make the reasons i choose to stop drinking in first place more valid. That what is significant to me. i take a measure of pride today in knowing that my sobriety is a expression of self respect and my desire to care for myself and those around me. i would write more, but i spilled a juice on my keyboard last month and the " M " key is stuck and driving me nuts. Dave kim h wrote: > > Kim here. This week I got an urge to go and drink a bit just because > it was pissing me off that AA says I can't control it. And also it > would relieve the pressure of being someone with 9 years sober and all > the supposed responsibility to be a wise role model and the burden of > self-righteousness and arrogance that goes along with it!Aaargh!I > would have, except that I'm on medication right now so I don't think > it's a good idea right now. I did eat some oreo cookies, I had quit > sugar due to a supposed " addiction " to it(overuse of it) about 5 years > ago. They tasted really good but I also remebered why I quit, that > being that I was a little sugar buzzed ( I ate half the package !) > which I didn't like and it is of no nutritional value. > I'm wondering what happened to people who have started to drink > again. I mean, what is your reaction to it? Do you enjoy it? Is it a > strain to control your intake? > Is it worth the hassle, in other words to bother trying to use > moderately? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 1999 Report Share Posted April 24, 1999 This probably explains why most of us drink less as we age. . .you make choices everyday, do I want food and water or do I want to use my caloric allotment on a cold beer. So far I've been too hungry to give up the food maybe some hot day in July I'll choose the beer. But obviously alcohol is not luring me back in it's 'cunning, baffling and powerful' way. Of course I am wondering if maybe Fritos are cunning, baffling and powerful? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 1999 Report Share Posted April 24, 1999 --- Dave, Just wanted to let you know that I always find your posts very moving and your insights remarkable. It's great that you're examining your feelings about drinking and not making impulsive decisions. Abstinence is the best path for some of us, either temporarily or permanently. I have never seen problem drinking as a black-and-white thing; it's really a continuum, and there are a variety of ways to deal with drinking problems on different points of the continuum. Abstinence is a valid choice. This is a highly individual decision of course, just as a decision to join a support group or go into therapy should be. Evaluating your feelings and motives allows you to make the best choices. Those who choose to try moderate drinking after a period of abstinence should definitely be self-aware of their feelings, motives, and reactions. ~Rita >hi kim, >about a week ago i was feeling like i wanted to go to a bar and get one >drink and walk out. not becasue i really wanted a drink or was curious >as to what it would be like. i cringe at the thought of the smell and >memeories i have of it as it is. > >No, i wanted drink to end my current streak of time abstnent (going on 3 >years). i got sober as i was attending aa (no credit to program or >12-steps mind you. in fact , i was sober in spite of thsoe things) and i >was feeling like for once i wanted my sobriety to be inarguably by my >doing. it would for once and all be to my credit. > >but right now as i sit here writing this, i see a couple things. that >idea was based more on my anger at 12-steppers than anything else. >all thsoe things i thought would be justifed by the act of having one >drink and stopping (agian) were never illegitamate. I did get sober by >my will power and choice. i decided i didnt want to suffer any more as i >did when i drank, and that i had enough. that was my choice and to my >credit. yea, i could pick up a drink today and stop. but it really >wouldnt prove anything. > >Most importantly, it couldnt make the reasons i choose to stop drinking >in first place more valid. That what is significant to me. i take a >measure of pride today in knowing that my sobriety is a expression of >self respect and my desire to care for myself and those around me. > >i would write more, but i spilled a juice on my keyboard last month and >the " M " key is stuck and driving me nuts. > ----------------------- > >kim h wrote: >> >> Kim here. This week I got an urge to go and drink a bit just because >> it was pissing me off that AA says I can't control it. And also it >> would relieve the pressure of being someone with 9 years sober and all >> the supposed responsibility to be a wise role model and the burden of >> self-righteousness and arrogance that goes along with it!Aaargh!I >> would have, except that I'm on medication right now so I don't think >> it's a good idea right now. I did eat some oreo cookies, I had quit >> sugar due to a supposed " addiction " to it(overuse of it) about 5 years >> ago. They tasted really good but I also remebered why I quit, that >> being that I was a little sugar buzzed ( I ate half the package !) >> which I didn't like and it is of no nutritional value. >> I'm wondering what happened to people who have started to drink >> again. I mean, what is your reaction to it? Do you enjoy it? Is it a >> strain to control your intake? >> Is it worth the hassle, in other words to bother trying to use >> moderately? > -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 1999 Report Share Posted April 24, 1999 Hey, I started drinking again in December and it's GREAT! I can have a couple beers after work NO PROBLEM. I can go anywhere now, and not be afraid. I really enjoy good microbrews, and am so happy to be able to have them again. I bought a 12 pack of Sam's IPA 2 weeks ago, and it is still sitting in my trunk- minus one. I actually forgot I bought it. Drinking is take it or leave it for me, and I find that when I do drink now, instead of craving more and more as I'm drinking, I feel 'full', and will actually leave 1/2 full beers on the bar and go home. This from the girl who used to drink your beer when you went to the bathroom! Can't say what it'd be like for anyone else, but it's all different for me. s --- Dave wrote: > hi kim, > about a week ago i was feeling like i wanted to go > to a bar and get one > drink and walk out. not becasue i really wanted a > drink or was curious > as to what it would be like. i cringe at the thought > of the smell and > memeories i have of it as it is. > > No, i wanted drink to end my current streak of time > abstnent (going on 3 > years). i got sober as i was attending aa (no credit > to program or > 12-steps mind you. in fact , i was sober in spite of > thsoe things) and i > was feeling like for once i wanted my sobriety to be > inarguably by my > doing. it would for once and all be to my credit. > > but right now as i sit here writing this, i see a > couple things. that > idea was based more on my anger at 12-steppers than > anything else. > all thsoe things i thought would be justifed by the > act of having one > drink and stopping (agian) were never illegitamate. > I did get sober by > my will power and choice. i decided i didnt want to > suffer any more as i > did when i drank, and that i had enough. that was my > choice and to my > credit. yea, i could pick up a drink today and stop. > but it really > wouldnt prove anything. > > Most importantly, it couldnt make the reasons i > choose to stop drinking > in first place more valid. That what is significant > to me. i take a > measure of pride today in knowing that my sobriety > is a expression of > self respect and my desire to care for myself and > those around me. > > i would write more, but i spilled a juice on my > keyboard last month and > the " M " key is stuck and driving me nuts. > > Dave > > kim h wrote: > > > > Kim here. This week I got an urge to go and drink > a bit just because > > it was pissing me off that AA says I can't control > it. And also it > > would relieve the pressure of being someone with 9 > years sober and all > > the supposed responsibility to be a wise role > model and the burden of > > self-righteousness and arrogance that goes along > with it!Aaargh!I > > would have, except that I'm on medication right > now so I don't think > > it's a good idea right now. I did eat some oreo > cookies, I had quit > > sugar due to a supposed " addiction " to it(overuse > of it) about 5 years > > ago. They tasted really good but I also remebered > why I quit, that > > being that I was a little sugar buzzed ( I ate > half the package !) > > which I didn't like and it is of no nutritional > value. > > I'm wondering what happened to people who have > started to drink > > again. I mean, what is your reaction to it? Do you > enjoy it? Is it a > > strain to control your intake? > > Is it worth the hassle, in other words to bother > trying to use > > moderately? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Show mom you love her. Check out our great Mother's > Day Gifts! > 14K Gold and gemstone jewelry, leather and cloth > wallets and purses, > gardening, gourmet, kitchen, more! Free Shipping in > the US! > http://clickhere./click/142 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 1999 Report Share Posted April 24, 1999 Dave, You are so sensible. I would have thought that considering the evidence that drinking one or two would not be a problem for anyone as long as they went armed with the information that the " cross over effect " from control within the neocortex to control by the limbic system begins at 2 drinks. But you were far more reasoned than that. You made a decision based on what you thought and to honor that is to trust yourself. What a novel idea! I appauld you and thanks for offering this insight. Hey and watch the juice on the keyboard, you're drinking is causing damage to that which you love. Carol At 11:33 PM 4/23/99 -0400, you wrote: >hi kim, >about a week ago i was feeling like i wanted to go to a bar and get one >drink and walk out. not becasue i really wanted a drink or was curious >as to what it would be like. i cringe at the thought of the smell and >memeories i have of it as it is. > >No, i wanted drink to end my current streak of time abstnent (going on 3 >years). i got sober as i was attending aa (no credit to program or >12-steps mind you. in fact , i was sober in spite of thsoe things) and i >was feeling like for once i wanted my sobriety to be inarguably by my >doing. it would for once and all be to my credit. > >but right now as i sit here writing this, i see a couple things. that >idea was based more on my anger at 12-steppers than anything else. >all thsoe things i thought would be justifed by the act of having one >drink and stopping (agian) were never illegitamate. I did get sober by >my will power and choice. i decided i didnt want to suffer any more as i >did when i drank, and that i had enough. that was my choice and to my >credit. yea, i could pick up a drink today and stop. but it really >wouldnt prove anything. > >Most importantly, it couldnt make the reasons i choose to stop drinking >in first place more valid. That what is significant to me. i take a >measure of pride today in knowing that my sobriety is a expression of >self respect and my desire to care for myself and those around me. > >i would write more, but i spilled a juice on my keyboard last month and >the " M " key is stuck and driving me nuts. > >Dave > >kim h wrote: >> >> Kim here. This week I got an urge to go and drink a bit just because >> it was pissing me off that AA says I can't control it. And also it >> would relieve the pressure of being someone with 9 years sober and all >> the supposed responsibility to be a wise role model and the burden of >> self-righteousness and arrogance that goes along with it!Aaargh!I >> would have, except that I'm on medication right now so I don't think >> it's a good idea right now. I did eat some oreo cookies, I had quit >> sugar due to a supposed " addiction " to it(overuse of it) about 5 years >> ago. They tasted really good but I also remebered why I quit, that >> being that I was a little sugar buzzed ( I ate half the package !) >> which I didn't like and it is of no nutritional value. >> I'm wondering what happened to people who have started to drink >> again. I mean, what is your reaction to it? Do you enjoy it? Is it a >> strain to control your intake? >> Is it worth the hassle, in other words to bother trying to use >> moderately? > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Show mom you love her. Check out our great Mother's Day Gifts! >14K Gold and gemstone jewelry, leather and cloth wallets and purses, >gardening, gourmet, kitchen, more! Free Shipping in the US! >http://clickhere./click/142 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 1999 Report Share Posted April 24, 1999 rita, thanks for the kind words. The regards are mutual. your absolutly correct in noting; " Abstinence is the best path for some of us " . I had an intersting experience last summer. I went out on the town with an old co-worker. We went to a bar and after the 2nd round he noted i wasnt drinking. As a rule, i dont like to make my former drinking problem a topic of conversation, i also dont talk about it with peopel who werent already aware of my history, especially co-workers. ( i have freind of 20 years i still havent let know i had a problem before. it just hasnt come up or been a need to do so) Unlike some steppers, i thinks its unatural to broadcast to world that aspect of my being before they get to know any other aspect of me. Since this person i was in bar with was a former co-worker and still a friend, so i just said i was in rehab 2 years earlier and that i dont drink today. What i learned in conversation with him was that when he was younger he too had a problem with his drinking and attended a.a. But he didnt have a problem now and didnt see why he shouldnt drink. (at this time, he was 30, married and had his own successful multimedia company) he reason for being so sure of himself on this was so simple and clear it instanly struck me as wisdom based on true self-awarness. he's anwser: " im not that person anymore " the clarity of that insight i find unavoidable.It demostrates the self knowledge that as we grow, our needs change, and that a drinking habit is only an aspect of ones self. A habit is not self. I never liked and refuse to use the self imposoed identiety lable " im dave and im alcholic " for that very reason. its a sick masochistic practice. I rather refer to myself as being " sober " than " alcholic " . When i read Stanton Peeles theory that most alcoholics out grow their abusive habits, the first person i thought of was that friend. (Stanton is decades ahead of his time) when i look into my own heart today, i know i wouldnt find the satisfaction i desired from drinking my self into oblivian each night. There is nothing there for me now. But at same time, drinking wouldnt offer me the casual enjoyment thsoe who moderate find. And besides, i killed off enought brain cells in my time, i want to keep the ones i got:) Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 1999 Report Share Posted April 24, 1999 carol, your right. I have a serious problem of " acting out " my anger onto my home electronic equipment. Last month it was juice on keyboard, next time it will be a banana milkshake in the VCR. It's a cry for help. dave > Hey and watch the juice on the keyboard, you're drinking is causing damage > to that which you love. > Carol ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 1999 Report Share Posted April 24, 1999 At 02:50 PM 4/24/99 -0400, you wrote: <snipped> >What i learned in conversation with him was that when he was younger he >too had a problem with his drinking and attended a.a. >But he didnt have a problem now and didnt see why he shouldnt drink. >(at this time, he was 30, married and had his own successful multimedia >company) > >he reason for being so sure of himself on this was so simple and clear >it instanly struck me as wisdom based on true self-awarness. >he's anwser: " im not that person anymore " > >the clarity of that insight i find unavoidable.It demostrates the self >knowledge that as we grow, our needs change, and that a drinking habit >is only an aspect of ones self. A habit is not self. >Dave Yes! This is quite a profound insight, I think, and it all fits together with what else I know about it. Consider the kind of thinking and self-development that is fostered in AA- fear of one's own thinking and a perpetual statement that you are what you were before. This must make it very hard if not impossible for people to grow up and move on. So you end up with a huge stagnant pool of developmentally arrested humanity, forever sharing their stuckness with one another in meetings... The more I think about it, the more I think that the AA philosophy works against recovery, by stopping the very things that the person needs to do, like take responsibility, become independent, and grow and change. My identity as an AA and NA member was that I WAS the person I had been before, and every time I said " My name's Joe and I'm an alcoholic " I reaffirmed that self-limiting belief. It was tantamount to saying " My name's Joe and I will always be like I was and must be here regularly to say so. " Ridiculous nonsense... Joe Berenbaum ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 1999 Report Share Posted April 24, 1999 Hello Carol Is there heavy irony here? As an RR advocate, I've never seen any suggestion by you that controlled drinking is a viable option, and certainly I've never seen anything that links this notion to the RR brain model of addiction. However, I have seen a statement along these lines regarding blood alcohol content, which is of cause related to number of drinks had, body mass, etc. On Sat, 24 Apr 1999 11:30:57 -0700 carol francey wrote: > Dave, > You are so sensible. I would have thought that considering the evidence > that drinking one or two would not be a problem for anyone as long as they > went armed with the information that the " cross over effect " from control > within the neocortex to control by the limbic system begins at 2 drinks. > But you were far more reasoned than that. > > You made a decision based on what you thought and to honor that is to trust > yourself. What a novel idea! I appauld you and thanks for offering this > insight. > > Hey and watch the juice on the keyboard, you're drinking is causing damage > to that which you love. > Carol > > > At 11:33 PM 4/23/99 -0400, you wrote: > >hi kim, > >about a week ago i was feeling like i wanted to go to a bar and get one > >drink and walk out. not becasue i really wanted a drink or was curious > >as to what it would be like. i cringe at the thought of the smell and > >memeories i have of it as it is. > > > >No, i wanted drink to end my current streak of time abstnent (going on 3 > >years). i got sober as i was attending aa (no credit to program or > >12-steps mind you. in fact , i was sober in spite of thsoe things) and i > >was feeling like for once i wanted my sobriety to be inarguably by my > >doing. it would for once and all be to my credit. > > > >but right now as i sit here writing this, i see a couple things. that > >idea was based more on my anger at 12-steppers than anything else. > >all thsoe things i thought would be justifed by the act of having one > >drink and stopping (agian) were never illegitamate. I did get sober by > >my will power and choice. i decided i didnt want to suffer any more as i > >did when i drank, and that i had enough. that was my choice and to my > >credit. yea, i could pick up a drink today and stop. but it really > >wouldnt prove anything. > > > >Most importantly, it couldnt make the reasons i choose to stop drinking > >in first place more valid. That what is significant to me. i take a > >measure of pride today in knowing that my sobriety is a expression of > >self respect and my desire to care for myself and those around me. > > > >i would write more, but i spilled a juice on my keyboard last month and > >the " M " key is stuck and driving me nuts. > > > >Dave > > > >kim h wrote: > >> > >> Kim here. This week I got an urge to go and drink a bit just because > >> it was pissing me off that AA says I can't control it. And also it > >> would relieve the pressure of being someone with 9 years sober and all > >> the supposed responsibility to be a wise role model and the burden of > >> self-righteousness and arrogance that goes along with it!Aaargh!I > >> would have, except that I'm on medication right now so I don't think > >> it's a good idea right now. I did eat some oreo cookies, I had quit > >> sugar due to a supposed " addiction " to it(overuse of it) about 5 years > >> ago. They tasted really good but I also remebered why I quit, that > >> being that I was a little sugar buzzed ( I ate half the package !) > >> which I didn't like and it is of no nutritional value. > >> I'm wondering what happened to people who have started to drink > >> again. I mean, what is your reaction to it? Do you enjoy it? Is it a > >> strain to control your intake? > >> Is it worth the hassle, in other words to bother trying to use > >> moderately? > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Show mom you love her. Check out our great Mother's Day Gifts! > >14K Gold and gemstone jewelry, leather and cloth wallets and purses, > >gardening, gourmet, kitchen, more! Free Shipping in the US! > >http://clickhere./click/142 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 1999 Report Share Posted April 24, 1999 What I wonder about is - what bothers me - is that I obsessed so long before I had that first drink again. Whether or not we do take another drink, the scary part is that we are so very afraid of alcohol after that brainwashing trip we went through. It's scary, isn't it? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 1999 Report Share Posted April 24, 1999 >Kim here. This week I got an urge to go and drink a bit just because >it was pissing me off that AA says I can't control it. And also it >would relieve the pressure of being someone with 9 years sober and all >the supposed responsibility to be a wise role model and the burden of >self-righteousness and arrogance that goes along with it!Aaargh!I >would have, except that I'm on medication right now so I don't think >it's a good idea right now. I did eat some oreo cookies, I had quit >sugar due to a supposed " addiction " to it(overuse of it) about 5 years >ago. They tasted really good but I also remebered why I quit, that >being that I was a little sugar buzzed ( I ate half the package !) >which I didn't like and it is of no nutritional value. > I'm wondering what happened to people who have started to drink >again. I mean, what is your reaction to it? Do you enjoy it? Is it a >strain to control your intake? > Is it worth the hassle, in other words to bother trying to use >moderately? I would have to say the only person that can answer that question is you. Many of the people on this group apparently are not, nor were they ever, alcoholics by anybody's definition of the word. Some people apparently just drank heavily at a critical period of their lives, went to AA and got a bunch of bullshit fed to them, and then got over it only to discover that they could, in fact, regulate their drinking. Other people, myself included, were hard-core alcoholics who drank every day and couldn't stop for even a day without a monumental expendititure of will power and endurance. I strongly doubt that I personally could drink again and then stop without a similar expenditure of " self-will " and self-discipline. Myself I see little reason to fuck with alcohol again. I would be very careful of people who casually dismiss alcoholism as little more than a " bad habit " that you'll eventually " get over. " Alcoholism and addiction in general are problems that have plagued the human race for 5,000 years, and the devastating effects have been well-documented throughout multiple cultures long before AA came along. Addiction is not some ad-hoc invention of a bunch of religious fanatics in AA; it is a very real and very powerful phenomenon. I'll go out on a limb and say that my personal feeling is that people like Stanton Peale are as full of shit as AA is. If AA's sin is to over-dramatize the power of alcoholism, trying to convince you that you are " powerless " over it, then Stanton Peele's sin is to under-dramatize it, trying to convince you that alcoholism is some minor problem that has been blown out of proportion by some sort of shadow conspiracy involving AA. The fact of the matter is, most people who drink are *not* alcoholics, and should find quiting alcohol as easy as Peale makes it out to be. But for those who *are* alcoholics, or addicted to other drugs, then if it was so easy to quit why do so many continue to destroy their lives rather than stop? Because of AA? I think not. Hundreds of thousands of people in the US die each year from the effects of smoking, drinking and yes, even excessive intake of sugar. Unless all these people had some bizarre wish to die in agony rather that quit their beloved addictions, I submit that perhaps a more powerful mechanism was at work compelling them to continue using than AA propoganda. I personally was completly ignorant of the " conventional wisdom " regarding alcholism prior to entering AA, so I'm certain it had no impact on my own drinking behavior. Yet my behavior fit the model quite accurately. Perhaps your experience is different. I find that I have to regulate my intake of sugar and other simple carbohydrates, otherwise I experience almost constant craving for food regardless of how much I eat. Call that a " bad habit " if you will, but I feel as good as gold when i abstain, and if I were truly indulging in " pleasure-seeking behavior " it feels a helluva lot better to be free of craving, than to be feeding into it. Perhaps you are not an alcoholic and AA fed you a bunch of balderdash. Maybe you'll find that you can control your drinking after all. Then again, perhaps you will climb into the ring once more with alcohol and get the shit beat out of you. Maybe you'll die this time, like a good many others I know. In the meantime, have the courage to let your own feelings and your own experience and your own common sense be your guide, and do not let anyone else feed you a line of shit about what you can and can't do. Be aware of the *potential* risks; they are deadly serious, and they are yours alone to take. If you learned anything in AA, it should be that drinkers are not carbon-copies of one-another, and another's advice and personal experience is worth only so much. Good luck, Conlon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 1999 Report Share Posted April 25, 1999 In a message dated 4/24/99 12:15:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dmarcoot@... writes: > Last month it was juice on keyboard, next > time it will be a banana milkshake in the VCR. It's a cry for help. Sounds like you're either a clumsy idiot or a careless slob to me, but I wouldn't call it an addiction. Whatever the problem, it is no doubt your mother's fault. <g> Henders ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 1999 Report Share Posted April 25, 1999 Content-Type: text/plain Subject: Re: drink again?? X-Mailer: www.eGroups.com Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <pid13043.1999.April.25.3:50.194534.egroups> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 22:50:42 -0000 In-Reply-To: From: babystrange@... To: 12-step-freeegroups wrote: Original Article: /list/12-step-free/?start=3861 > Kim here. This week I got an urge to go and drink a bit just because > it was pissing me off that AA says I can't control it. <snipped for brevity> > I'm wondering what happened to people who have started to drink > again. I mean, what is your reaction to it? Do you enjoy it? Is it a > strain to control your intake? > Is it worth the hassle, in other words to bother trying to use > moderately? Hi, Kim--- Five years after resuming drinking, I do think it's been worth it. Sometimes, I admit, I do find myself drinking more than I feel I should (although drunkenness hasn't been a problem) and I stop for a week or two to get some distance from it. Usually a couple of beers three or four times a week is it. Sometimes I get together with friends and we sample different single-malt Scotches, but it's rare anyone goes home truly bombed from those get-togethers. We get to talking and forget to drink! I've been a homebrewer for three years now, and I've quit doing beers (too many good microbrews here in the Pacific Northwest to justify the effort) in favor of mead. One thing about mead--it takes a minimum of two years from brewing to drinking because it has to age properly. It's strong stuff, equal or greater in alcohol content to table wine, but you can't be looking for a quick drunk to go through all the bother. I'm making dandelion wine for the first time right now--started it last week--and I won't be able to crack the first bottle until April of 2001. If I'm smart, I'll wait at least another year beyond that. I'm not about to get up in the middle of the night and drink it half-fermented--nowadays I can certainly wait! Drinking is very enjoyable for me, but I'm a lot pickier about what I'll pour down my throat these days. I was standing in line at the supermarket yesterday, and the woman ahead of me was buying a case of Corona--my onetime beer of choice. I won't bother with insipid pisswater like that now; I'll take an iced tea, thank you. I went through a lot of anxiety around drinking for the first year, even though I knew I'd done the right thing. I think a lot of that anxiety was getting over the idea that I was powerless--not only over alcohol, but also a lot of other problems in my life. Without powerlessness as a crutch, I had to take responsibility for the way my life was going; it was a rough transition, but I made it just fine. At this point, alcohol has a place in my life, but is not the center; frankly, I don't think about it all that much. It's ceased being a big deal. Other than avoiding drinking out of anger or combining alcohol and medication, I don't have any great advice to dole out. I assume from your messages that you are a very bright individual who is not about to do something stupid or rash! It's a huge step (sorry) to take--the last severing of any tie to AA you might have by proving the Disease to be a lie. Whatever you do, I wish you all the best--- Cheers, . ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 1999 Report Share Posted April 26, 1999 drink again?? [snip] > I'm wondering what happened to people who have started to drink >again. I mean, what is your reaction to it? Do you enjoy it? Is it a >strain to control your intake? Well, here's what happened to me. I started out as a mostly 'controlled' but excessive drinker -- I would drink in the evening and keep the amount down so that I could function the next day. (My maximum was about 8 16-ounce beers or 3/4 of a pint of bourbon.) In 1981 this seemed not to be working very well, so I sought counselling. In a short period of time I became convinced that I was an 'alcoholic', went through a 28-day treatment program, started going to AA. The result was that I became a binge drinker, much worse than before. By 1987 I realized that AA/treatment was the problem. I stayed sober for 1.5 years on antabuse and then resumed drinking (figuring that my original drinking style was preferable to what I had been experiencing, and not believing that I could remain abstinent.) To some degree, I drank because I was annoyed that AA had ruined my drinking, and I just wanted to see if I could do it. This pretty much worked for 4 years ('89 - '93.) As long as I stayed away from AA and kept all the 'alcoholism' literature stashed away in a box in the back of a closet I had a reasonable degree of control. I settled on a 6-pack (16-ounce bottles, highest alcohol content that I could find) of malt liquor as my basic daily dose. I would drink nothing 2 or 3 days out of the week. When I was drinking socially I found that I could stick to 2 or 3 drinks if I wanted to. Even so I wasn't really happy with what was happening. I regretted the amount of time I wasted drinking, as well as the long-term effect it was having on me, mentally and physically. In '93 I decided to try to quit, and I went to a few AA meetings just to see if maybe my perspective had changed so that I could get some kind of benefit from it. Within 2 months I was DISASTROUSLY drunk. So, to make a long story short, I quit for good, read some alternative (RR etc.) stuff, and finally settled on doing it my way and not drinking at all. So... as several people have said, it has to be an individual decision. From a rational perspective, it is like any other decision. Consider the risks, the benefits, and the probability of success. If the probability of success is greater than the risk/benefit ratio, then one should drink; otherwise one should not. In my case, what happens if I start drinking and it goes badly represents an extraordinarily high cost -- death or worse. On the benefit side, I'm actually doing quite well without alcohol, so the potential gains from drinking are small. I think that based on what I believe now I could probably drink successfully. If I decided that I would (a) stick to 3 drinks when 'out' and ( never bring alcoholic beverages home, then I could probably drink like a normal human and enjoy it. HOWEVER, there is a chance that I am mistaken. I can't even say that I am 90% sure that I wouldn't wind up being out of control. 90% isn't good enough. > Is it worth the hassle, in other words to bother trying to use >moderately? Not for me, but as for you it's your decision. Just be sure you consider all the angles in a lucid frame of mind. -- Wally ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 1999 Report Share Posted April 28, 1999 >Hello , folks > >On Sat, 24 Apr 1999 22:45:17 -0400 C ><redhawk2mindspring> wrote: >I think you forget that some definitions of alcoholism do >not rule out succesful moderation. Oh yeah, Stanton Peele... The idea that there is a >severity of drinking that *nobody* ever recovers from to >moderate is not supported by the evidence. I never said there was. If there is indeed a threshold beyond which there is no return, then I doubt anyone could quantify exactly where that happens and certainly it would be different for each person. What I am questioning, is the idea that regardless of how far you've progressed with your drinking, *anybody* can learn to moderate their drinking. Not only is such a view patently false, I think it applies to few if many genuine alcoholics. That is to say, if you weren't able to do so in the past, it is unlikely you will succeed in the future, regardless of time sober. Even Moderation Management bills itself as a program for people who are *not* already problem drinkers or who want to try moderation before abstinance. Their criteria for what constititutes "moderation" are fairly strict, and I think it an appropriate question to ask, exactly what *is* moderation? Historically, >the term merely meant what is by the modern term alcohol >dependence, and very many formerly alcohol dependent >individuals do eventually moderate, and probably even more >could do so if helped to do so. The dictionary definition of alcoholism is: The compulsive consumption of and psychophysiological dependence on alcoholic beverages. Note that this definition includes both a physical as well as a psychological dependence, with the physical side often manifested through withdrawal symptoms when the person tries to stop drinking. Someoone merely using alcohol as a temporary crutch for emotional problems probably doesn't fit the bill, particularly if they find quitting easy. I would personally define alcoholism as an inability to drink in moderation or refrain from drinking without tremendous psychological and physical difficulty. If you can drink in moderation without difficulty, I doubt you're an alcoholic even if you go overboard on occasion. >> Some people apparently just >> drank heavily at a critical period of their lives, went to AA and got a >> bunch of bullshit fed to them, and then got over it only to discover that >> they could, in fact, regulate their drinking. > >I think this is a very common phenomononm, especially with >young ppl who have just had a DUI or been thru a >'designer' rehab. It has become cool and socially acceptable to be in recovery; too many people have become willing to apply the label to themselves, especially those who view it as some sort of rite of passage to be an alcoholic. >> Other people, myself >> included, were hard-core alcoholics who drank every day and couldn't stop >> for even a day without a monumental expendititure of will power and >> endurance. I strongly doubt that I personally could drink again and then >> stop without a similar expenditure of "self-will" and self-discipline. >> Myself I see little reason to fuck with alcohol again. > >After immoderate drinking maybe, but after 5 years >abstinent and carefully re-introducing it? No need to, of >course, but just because something is unnecessary or even >risky it doesnt mean it's *impossible*. Given that it may >not be impossible, some ppl might decide for them they wish >to do it. I never said that it was *impossible*. If you read what I wrote, then you would realize I consider it *improbable* and there's a world of difference between the two. It is entirely possible, now that I haven't drank in like 9 years or so, that I could just go out and moderate my drinking. I may indeed have "outgrown" my addiction. It is possible. But probable? Based on my previous experience, those of people I know and everything I have come to learn about this problem, I think it highly unlikely. >> I would be very careful of people who casually dismiss alcoholism as little >> more than a "bad habit" that you'll eventually "get over." Alcoholism and >> addiction in general are problems that have plagued the human race for >> 5,000 years, and the devastating effects have been well-documented >> throughout multiple cultures long before AA came along. Addiction is not >> some ad-hoc invention of a bunch of religious fanatics in AA; it is a very >> real and very powerful phenomenon. > >I dont know of any theorists who suggest that addiction >doesnt exist (except tobacoo company lackeys, and then only >abt tobacco). Rather, they say that it a complex >psychosocial phenomonon. Alcohol problems existed before >AA; but those ppl prone to it were often in *similar* >religious, "demon-rum" notion societies, and still are. In >other words, alcoholism gets created continuously at >different times and places. Really? Were the ancient Celts, Greeks and Romans all in "demon-rum" societies? Are we in "demon-rum" societies today? This is a good example of what I mean by dismissing the concept of alcohol addiction, and instead portraying it as some kind of bugaboo exemplified by, if not outright fabricated by, AA and other religious movements. No one had to invent or exaggerate the problems associated with alcohol. They have always been there. Another problem with this view is that the entire Western world can be regarded as a "demon-rum" society. >> I'll go out on a limb and say that my personal feeling is that people like >> Stanton Peale are as full of shit as AA is. If AA's sin is to >> over-dramatize the power of alcoholism, trying to convince you that you are >> "powerless" over it, then Stanton Peele's sin is to under-dramatize it, >> trying to convince you that alcoholism is some minor problem that has been >> blown out of proportion by some sort of shadow conspiracy involving AA. > >This I would say completely misrepresents Peele. He does >say that he believes that these problems change over time, >and that colonial america had much less problematic >drinking than the modern one, even tho ppl drank more in >general. This is a good example of Peele jumping to wild conclusions based on questionable research. Such a view would in reality be next to impossible to quantify, since many people lied their lives in complete isolation, few authorities if any kept records of such things, and frankly, it's doubtful anybody really cared to examine the matter in any depth back in those days. Further, rates of alcoholism would also be influenced by a variety of other factors, such as the tough, physically active lives people led back then compared to our more modern sedentary lives, which make us more prone to the effects of alcohol. Also, these people were probably more "alcohol-deprivation hardy," if I can coin such a phrase, since they were far more likely to experience periods of forced abstinance, routine starvation or lack of food, and were probably more inured to the unpleasant effects of not eating or drinking for extended periods than those of us who can run to the corner store for a six-pack and a bag of chips at any hour of the day. >> The >> fact of the matter is, most people who drink are *not* alcoholics, and >> should find quiting alcohol as easy as Peale makes it out to be. > >Peele does not claim it is easy. The concept of "maturing >out" of compulsive behavior isnt like "growing out" of old >clothes. It involves a person making a decision to alter >their behavior based on circumstances and different >priorities as they get older. really that's all anyone >does who goes to AA, RR or wherever - they decide to alter >their behavior for *some reason*. unfortunately, AA >emphasise severe negative reasons rather than positive >reasons for the change. One can accept that most ppl do in >fact do this without claiming that any of them found it >*easy*. Actually, he is inconsistent in this regard. In his scholarly works, he often portrays addictions as being difficult to master, while in his letters and responses to his readers, he often acts as though addiction is a simple problem that will go away of its own once you no longer "need" it. He takes a very cavalier attitude towards suggesting that those who are in doubt as to whether they are addicted should try moderation, as though this is perfectly safe to do. Sure, if you had your last drink last night, try moderation, but you better think about what you're doing if your last drink was 5 years ago. >> But for >> those who *are* alcoholics, or addicted to other drugs, then if it was so >> easy to quit why do so many continue to destroy their lives rather than >> stop? Because of AA? I think not. Hundreds of thousands of people in the US >> die each year from the effects of smoking, drinking and yes, even excessive >> intake of sugar. > >Millions, in fact. but are you saying *anyone* who smokes >regularly, however little, is addicted, or anyone who >overeats? Of course not. I am saying that those who suffer ill-health from these things, desire to stop (as so many do in our weight-conscious and health-obsessed society) and find that they cannot, are possibly suffering from addiction. Otherwise, they could just say "I want to stop smoking today" and put down the cigararettes with no more difficulty than they would have deciding to wear sneakers instead of shoes for the rest of the summer because their feet hurt. There is no cutoff for safe smoking, and whereas >mild overweight has few health consequences, there is a >continuous variation with levels of obesity. Eating >disorders of all kinds - obesity, anorexia, and bulimia >have exploded dramatically in the last 30 years. Surely, >this is best explained by the dramatic increase in tyhe >cheapness and availability of junk foods, rather than an >intrinsic "disease" in the ppl who suffer? It should be noted that obesity isn't really a "disorder" for *most* people but is quite a normal consequence of overeating. On the other hand, I think that overeating *itself* can be a disorder. I also doubt that such people are suffering from a "disease" but that they *could be* suffering from a disorder that is in part physiologically based and which has resulted from excessive consumption of food that, if you've ever noticed, tend to be high in simple carbohydrates that play havoc with blood sugar levels. As I'm sure you know, some researchers have suggested that these variations in blood sugar levels which are caused by many of the major known addictive behaviors and substances, are a possible causative factor in the physiological side of addiction. The Arizona Pima >have abt 80% prevalence of obesity. Surely this reflects an >over-rapid introduction of a cultural practice - junk food >- unless you consider 80% of these ppl to have an >*intrinsic* disease? No, they just eat too much. Now, why do they eat too much? That is the question. >> Unless all these people had some bizarre wish to die in >> agony rather that quit their beloved addictions, I submit that perhaps a >> more powerful mechanism was at work compelling them to continue using than >> AA propoganda. > >Of course, but what exists is often *AA-like* propaganda >which the cultural norm for Western society. Like I said, I never heard the propaganda until I got into AA, though I did have a doctor tell me that no one could quit drinking on their own without help. I considered the idea pattently absurd, and told him that I would be the exception to his rule. Believe it or not, my perception of AA was based on an episode of "The Flintstones" cartoon where Fred Flintstone had a gambling problem and the "Betaholics Anonymous" people followed him everywhere he went and physically restrained him from betting. I really thought this was how AA worked (and judging from "Henders'" recent post, maybe I wasn't entirely wrong ). At any rate, these problems are older than Western society itself. >> I personally was completly ignorant of the "conventional >> wisdom" regarding alcholism prior to entering AA, so I'm certain it had no >> impact on my own drinking behavior. Yet my behavior fit the model quite >> accurately. Perhaps your experience is different. > >Even in the UK many ppl I talk to seems to think that >controlled drinking is impossible for a "real alcoholic" >and believe that it is genetically determined - and these >notions are much weaker in the UK alcohol treatment scene >than they are in the US. I would say however it is not so >much these notions as puritanical views in general abt >alcohol that tend to promote it. In any event, I personally >believe that it is a combination of childhood experience >and one's sub-cultural context that are the primary >determinants of addiction, rather than the general culture; >Peele talks abt this too. Peele is someone who has never experienced the very real physical pain of physical withdrawal for himself, and that is exactly what he sounds like. Of course, there are psychological and cultural factors involved in addiction, I doubt that any rational person could deny this. But to suggest that these are the *sole* factors involved, and that as your personality and circumstances evolve, so shall your addiction itself, is pattently absurd. Your experience of physical withdrawal and the addictive experience in general can be colored not only by your upbringing, but by your immediate environment and circumstances. This doesn't negate at least a partial physiological basis for addiction as Peele proposes, but only indicates that like all physically-experienced phenomena, including the common cold, the perception of the experience may be different for everyone. >> Perhaps you are not an alcoholic and AA fed you a bunch of balderdash. > >and perhaps she WAS an alcoholic ( i.e. actively alcohol >dependent) and AA fed her a lot of balderdash. > >> Maybe you'll find that you can control your drinking after all. Then again, >> perhaps you will climb into the ring once more with alcohol and get the >> shit beat out of you. Maybe you'll die this time, like a good many others I >> know. In the meantime, have the courage to let your own feelings and your >> own experience and your own common sense be your guide, and do not let >> anyone else feed you a line of shit about what you can and can't do. Be >> aware of the *potential* risks; they are deadly serious, and they are yours >> alone to take. If you learned anything in AA, it should be that drinkers >> are not carbon-copies of one-another, and another's advice and personal >> experience is worth only so much. > >As ever, I am not very convinced by the "I'm not trying to >advise you, but I'm just saying that step on the cracks and >the bears will get you." type argument used above. amongst >other things, it relies on the assumption that intending to >remain abstinent automatically involves less risk than >intending moderate drinking. Well, the fact is, I *was* trying to advice her to use her own judgement and to be careful, as the experiences or opinions of many on this group, myself included, may not be an accurate guidleline for her to base her actions on. Similarly, if she asked whether it was safe to go skydiving, I don't think I would be remiss in pointing out there's a good chance she might go "SPLAT!" And yes, I wholeheartedly, one-hundred percent believe that abstinance is a safer strategy for *anyone*, including those who *don't* have drinking problems. It's just that life isn't just about safety, it's also about fun, and drinking can be fun. >for the short-term abstinent this may well be untrue, and >for the long-term, the risk is probably small in either >case so long as you've quit AA. > >Pete Watts I would disgree completely. The risk is great in either case, and there is no reliable evidence that people actually outgrow their addcitions that I've ever seen. Such a thing would be very difficult to quantify and would involve far more careful research than that quoted by Peele on his web-page. Although I tend to rely more on my own empirical experience in evaluating these matters than that of some "expert" who's never seen the Elephant, still if you're aware of any such study, I'd like to examine it for myself. Conlon It is only through direct experience that problems are solved, and to have direct experience there must be simplicity, which means there must be sensitivity. A mind is made dull by the weight of knowledge. J. Krishnamurti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.