Controlled drinking: WAS Were the OGM abstainers?

[Guest guest]

Hi Lawrence

This is an area I think too broad to discuss here, but I

think you need to bear in mind the great difficulty of

helping alcohol dependents generally - so the fact that a

program collapses apparently in shambles by no means

discredits the technique *in the context* where the

majority of alcohol dependents relapse. If 12-step

treatments didnt have XA as free aftercare on whom they can

pass on responsibility for the patient's welfare (as well

as the patient themself) then I expect 12-step

establishments would also collapse: many do anyway.

I dont know how much anyone knows abt 's and 's

earlier attempts at moderation, but an undoubted fact is

that attempted *abstinence* on numerous occasions

and failed, by his own account - and I would expect

was the same. This also included using religious vows to

abstinence, including solemn oaths written in 's

Bible. It is often forgotten, and is XA insider rather than

outsider doctrine, that XA considers individually chosen

*abstinence* as *also* impossible, as well as moderation -

that is why the individual must surrender to God. The

impossibility of personally responsible abstinence is

actually hammered away at over and over again in the BB,as

much as moderation.

The general failure of early AA's to abstain is also

documented quite openly in AA literature, especially the

remarkable " Walter broadcast " episode highlighted by Ken in

his book and on the web. AA's maintain(ed) their faith in

abstinence religiously, rather than experientially.

Whether or not there is a group of individuals who can

never maintain controlled drinking is unknown. Modern

controlled drinking proponents often concede that there is,

but I believe that they do this primarily to avoid attacks

from the Disease Model mafia rather than on the clinical

evidence. I have seen Controlled Drinking proponents

attacked for this reason, claiming that the distinction is

an artificial one they have created for their own purposes;

in reality, it is the abstinence proponent who divides up

humanity between those who can drink moderately and those

who cant (non-alcoholics and alcoholics) - all the

Moderation advocate ever does is draw the line in a

different place.

Stanton Peele is an obvious authority to chase up on the

effectiveness of controlled drinking approaches - if you

consider him biased (as even some controlled drinking

advocates do) you could try Ron Roizen. A search on the web

should pick them both up.

One often neeeds to read between the lines very carefully -

I read in Peele's " The Meaning of Addiction " that Vaillant

classed in one study as *abstinent* not only ppl who had in

fact had binged on occasion, but also some ppl had drunk

without binging!

Pete

On Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:14:11 -0800 " Lawrence Deneault, "

wrote:

> Dear Pete: With respect to the original reasons AA came up with abstention

> as a policy.. I believe that it had to do with the fact that and

> had tried a bunch of different methods of controlled drinking, to no

> avail.. They would start out ok, then end up back in the gutter time and

> time again. Since I have been around in this area/field, I have know of five

> or so different groups who have tried to develop a method of controlled

> drinking for alcoholics. It should be noted that one of these involved an

> experiment with over 1100 alcoholics. The plan was run by two well meaning

> doctors who sincerely believed that with the right therapy, an alcoholic

> could control how and when he takes a drink. The five year program ended

> abruptly in about 18 months out of human decency.. It was a complete

> disaster. Sadly, for persons who are actually alcoholic... Not problem

> drinkers, but real alcoholics.. There has yet tobe found any sort of program

> that I am aware of, and believe me , I have looked, which has found a way to

> make alcoholics control their drinking.. It has nothing to do with religion,

> or early protestant influence. It is just a fact.. Now note that I did not

> say problem drinkers. There is a distinction.. Many problem drinkers can

> pull away from alcoholic behavior if they get things under control early

> enough.. But to tell you the truth, I don't think anyone can tell you if you

> are alcoholic, or just pushing the fringes.. You have to decide that one.

> Regards

>

> Lawrence

> Were the OGM abstainers?

>

>

> >Hi All

> >

> >Protestant sects were (are?) often alcohol abstainers. Can anyone tell me

> >if alcohol abstention was a part of OGM practice, either mandated or

> >encouraged? Clearly and didnt comply before they met each

> >other, but then, Protestant sects also have high rates of alcoholism, so

> >this fits the picture.

> >

> >This is important, because if true, it would indicate a far stronger

> >influence of the OGM on AA than has been talked abt to date. Previously,

> >only doctrinal influence has been discussed, but if the OGM were abstainers

> >generally (or tried to be) then this has a strong implication as to why AA

> >insists on abstention as the only route to recovery. Rather than born of

> >experience, it will have been born of an ideological inheritance.

> >

> >This would, more than ever, illustrate the fact that the AA promoted

> >Disease Model came not to bury the Moral Model but to raise it from its own

> >terminal sickbed.

> >

> >So, did the OGM preach abstention as a universal ideal?

> >

> >Pete

> >----------------------

> >Cool Briton

> >

> >Whosoever saves One Life

> >Saves the World Entire

> >

> >PERSONALITY-DISORDERS LIST:

> >http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

> >_____________________

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >