TMJ Problems

[Guest guest]

Re: TMJ problems

> Bonnie, yes! Exactly. And now that I think of it, my doc did find a mild

> infection in my throat last week

That's a hard question. After having had numerous sinus infections since I

was a teen (and probably before that) I can pretty much tell when it's a

sinus infection from other symptoms- temperature, coughing at night from

drainage, sore throat, tasting infection, having a dry cough during the day,

feeling pressure in the sinus area/headaches, etc. There have been many

times when I have gone to the dentist to see if it is a cavity. After having

Xrays and being told that the root of one tooth goes into the sinus area, I

can usually tell now when it's a sinus infection.

I am on Flonase sinus spray so the infections act different than they used

to. But I know when I have one and the MD's have gotten to know that I'm

right about it, otherwise, why waste the money and time going to the MD?

I use to have sinus Xrays to find out if it was a true infection, but MD's

don't do that much anymore with me as I am always <G> right!

since I have a depressed immune system, whenever I get a cold, which usually

starts out with sneezing and runny nose, it ALWAYS goes into a sinus

infection or bronchitis. Of course getting a new MD to believe that is

difficult, but I try to stand my ground. This happens to AManda also.

Hope this helps!

Bonnie

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone

Just wanted to say that you should all be VERY careful when going

down this path we are all on...I myself got braces to simply

straighten my teeth. But they told me I had a deep overbite and

therefore need to have orthognathic surgery to advance my lower jaw

forward. So next thing I know I am in pre-surgery braces. My bite is

made dramatically worse so that it will be in place post op. But the

the worse overbite and new overjet cause my Tempormandibular Joints

(TMJ) to spasm like crazy. started with horrible head, jaw, neck pain

which continued but I also started getting soar eyes, forehead, jaw

joints, temples, behind the ear pain and so on. The exact cause is un

known,there are many unknowns and tmj is incredibly difficult to make

better, few docs even deal with it. TMJ surgery is almost always

unsuccessful and leads to more pain. Point is that tmj related pain

can be incrdibly painful, although it varies. I happen to be less

lucky because I cannot even function yet my friends only problem is

that she clicks and pops...but no pain. So if you start having such

pains after braces come on, be sure you find a tmj specialist befire

it gets worse. I didn';t even knnow why I had teh pain, but was

totaly ignored by my ortho and 2 years later no one will help me

because my case is so complicated. I can't even work because the pain

makes it impossible to focus. I am no longer a member of this board

because fixing my teeth and profile for aesthetic reasons is not a

priority. My pain is my #1 priority. I hope few people here ever get

this debilitating condition, but since I am not on this board, feel

free to e-mail me if anyone has any Q's. there are tmj support groups

as well if anyone needs more info.

Thanks,

Vicki

[Guest guest]

Hello, Vicki. And I'm so sorry you are having such difficult trouble.

I believe that you're right, that TMJ troubles are indeed difficult

to diagnose and treat.

Are you saying that you did have surgery, and developed TMD

afterward? Or that you developed it while in braces, and did not have

surgery?

I know there are some docs who specialize in difficult TMD troubles,

but I think you're probably right, that they are few and far between,

and I'm not at all sure that the fix is necessarily surgical.

It must indeed be awful to be in such severe pain, and i do hope that

you will find someone who can help you find relief.

Cammie

[Guest guest]

Vicki,

You may remember me from the coping and healing board. Not everyone

on this board is in it for cosmetic reasons. I'm only having the

surgery in the first place because my TMJ is unbearable. I do

appreciate the effort that you're making to educate people about the

surgical risks. I also hope that you, personally, find some relief.

Cheryl

[Guest guest]

Cammie-

I remember you! thank you for your reply and for wishing me well. To

clarify, I never had any type of jaw or tmj surgery. THe tmj related

spasms that I have in so many places began after braces. And

sometimes I do wish I lived somehwere else where I could more easily

find a skillled tmj specialist. Even though I live in a middle sized

city, evidently that is not enough. All the specialists tell me to go

bakc to my ortho, yet my ortho has no idea what to do about my tmj!

The docs don;t want to get in the middle of his treatment for

liability reasons but really they should be looking out for what is

best for the patient. If they see something is done that does not

help, or something should be done, then they should step in and

perhaps work alongside my ortho.

Cheryl-

Was it Cheryl #1 or #2?I think there may have been a misunderstanding

and that is probably my doing, sorry. I don't belive that that

orthognathic surgery is done for cosmetic reasons only. I apologize I

phrased myself wrong. I know that this surgery helps people not wear

away their teeth because it improves function. And possibly even

prevents tmjd in some peopel who may have developed it later with

their bad bites. So I know it is about so much more and franky, since

most people have decent bites, then really this surgery is more about

function thana anything else and it pisses me off when insurance says

differenlty. Now for myself, what I meant was i really don't want it

anymore. I had initially wanted it to look better and at the time

didn't even know it was mostly done for functional reasons. So that

is what I meant when I wrote that. I am very confused now as to what

will help me. Orthognathic suregry may help my tmj but may also make

it worse at this point. It can cause osteoarthritis in my jaw or it

may prevent it with the better bite. Point is, the braces

unexpectedly aggravated the tmj to the point of horrible constant

pain. So for me the answres are not so simple and I fear I may have

to have endless joint surgeries as well as orthognathic surgery and i

just won;t know what end is up anymore.

[Guest guest]

Oww. I'm so sorry you have so much trouble.

I can tell you that my surgeon said that he does not do orthognathic

surgery for TMD, simply because it may help or it may make things

worse. Other docs may have different views, of course. He did say

that he used to do arthroscopic surgery to help with it. (but that

the hospital wouldn't keep his optical equipment off by itself, and

the general orthopedics guys burned them all up!)

One suggestion: Have you tried Beaudette's jaw wrap? It may

give you at least some momentary relief. You can use it for hot or

cold, and it's one of the easiest gadgets to use. She's Ms.

ZipnSqueeze, of course... I do find that heat can help, although my

orthodontist cautions me not to use it for more than 15 minutes at a

time, or else I will make things worse. (Sometimes you feel as if you

just can't win!)

cammie

[Guest guest]

Vicki,

the reason you are having tmj problems is because of the way your

teeth fit (or don't fit) together. Your body had adapted itself to

this bite. putting the braces on changed your bite and therfore you

lost your adaptive capacity to chew and let your jaw function.

Because your lower jaw is too short every time you go to chew or

swallow or talk you no doubt pull your lower jaw forward this pulls

your jaw joint out of the socket and stresses the muscles in your

face & neck. Has your otrthodontist ever suggested a splint? A

splint simulates a correct bite and allows your muscles to relax.

I wore a splint for 2 years before my ortho ever considered the

orthognathic surgery

> Hi everyone

> Just wanted to say that you should all be VERY careful when going

> down this path we are all on...I myself got braces to simply

> straighten my teeth. But they told me I had a deep overbite and

> therefore need to have orthognathic surgery to advance my lower jaw

> forward. So next thing I know I am in pre-surgery braces. My bite

is

> made dramatically worse so that it will be in place post op. But

the

> the worse overbite and new overjet cause my Tempormandibular Joints

> (TMJ) to spasm like crazy. started with horrible head, jaw, neck

pain

> which continued but I also started getting soar eyes, forehead, jaw

> joints, temples, behind the ear pain and so on. The exact cause is

un

> known,there are many unknowns and tmj is incredibly difficult to

make

> better, few docs even deal with it. TMJ surgery is almost always

> unsuccessful and leads to more pain. Point is that tmj related pain

> can be incrdibly painful, although it varies. I happen to be less

> lucky because I cannot even function yet my friends only problem is

> that she clicks and pops...but no pain. So if you start having such

> pains after braces come on, be sure you find a tmj specialist

befire

> it gets worse. I didn';t even knnow why I had teh pain, but was

> totaly ignored by my ortho and 2 years later no one will help me

> because my case is so complicated. I can't even work because the

pain

> makes it impossible to focus. I am no longer a member of this board

> because fixing my teeth and profile for aesthetic reasons is not a

> priority. My pain is my #1 priority. I hope few people here ever

get

> this debilitating condition, but since I am not on this board, feel

> free to e-mail me if anyone has any Q's. there are tmj support

groups

> as well if anyone needs more info.

>

> Thanks,

> Vicki

[Guest guest]

Thank you Cammie and for your replies

Today was a very stressful day and my tmj pain got so bad in so many

places I had to lay down for sometime which meant not getting so much

done.

Cammie, I have not tried Zip and Squeez's hot wrap but maybe I

should. I have, however, tried various heat packs. I most recently

tried massage therapycause I cannot afford the physical therapy

anymore without insurance. I would like to try craniosacral therapy

but again, $ is an issue. the massage costs less but even that I

can't do very often because it is $ as well Fortunately I have had

a bit of success with Glucosamine/Chondroitin/MSM, more so than with

prescription meds!

, thank you for the explanation. I am confused about

something. And that is whether or not orthognathic suregry make my

pain better or worse? I imagine it is unlikely to stay the same but

change in someway. Even though my teeth, mouth and underdeveloped

lower may have worked harder to eat, talk etc... to overcompensate

for the deep overbite, at least I didn't have any pain at that time.

Yet I had pain when my bite was changed, making me wish I never

messed with it in the first place. I don't get why I have such a

horrible problem while other pre-surgery patients don't get this

problem. But good thing they don't!

> > Hi everyone

> > Just wanted to say that you should all be VERY careful when going

> > down this path we are all on...I myself got braces to simply

> > straighten my teeth. But they told me I had a deep overbite and

> > therefore need to have orthognathic surgery to advance my lower

jaw

> > forward. So next thing I know I am in pre-surgery braces. My bite

> is

> > made dramatically worse so that it will be in place post op. But

> the

> > the worse overbite and new overjet cause my Tempormandibular

Joints

> > (TMJ) to spasm like crazy. started with horrible head, jaw, neck

> pain

> > which continued but I also started getting soar eyes, forehead,

jaw

> > joints, temples, behind the ear pain and so on. The exact cause

is

> un

> > known,there are many unknowns and tmj is incredibly difficult to

> make

> > better, few docs even deal with it. TMJ surgery is almost always

> > unsuccessful and leads to more pain. Point is that tmj related

pain

> > can be incrdibly painful, although it varies. I happen to be less

> > lucky because I cannot even function yet my friends only problem

is

> > that she clicks and pops...but no pain. So if you start having

such

> > pains after braces come on, be sure you find a tmj specialist

> befire

> > it gets worse. I didn';t even knnow why I had teh pain, but was

> > totaly ignored by my ortho and 2 years later no one will help me

> > because my case is so complicated. I can't even work because the

> pain

> > makes it impossible to focus. I am no longer a member of this

board

> > because fixing my teeth and profile for aesthetic reasons is not

a

> > priority. My pain is my #1 priority. I hope few people here ever

> get

> > this debilitating condition, but since I am not on this board,

feel

> > free to e-mail me if anyone has any Q's. there are tmj support

> groups

> > as well if anyone needs more info.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Vicki

[Guest guest]

Vicki wrote:

>>I am confused about something. And that is whether or not

orthognathic suregry make my pain better or worse? I imagine it is

unlikely to stay the same but change in someway. Even though my

teeth, mouth and underdeveloped lower may have worked harder to eat,

talk etc... to overcompensate for the deep overbite, at least I

didn't have any pain at that time. Yet I had pain when my bite was

changed, making me wish I never messed with it in the first place. I

don't get why I have such a horrible problem while other pre-surgery

patients don't get this problem. But good thing they don't!

Sue's response:

Hi, Vicki. I'm sorry to hear about your TMD. My daughter also suffers

from those problems, and it is no fun. She has had clicking, popping,

locking, ears blocked, and MUCH pain. She did not have any stable

bite--always trying to figure out how to position the teeth when

eating. She has degeneration of the TMJ with remodeling of the

condyles. Her TMD is serious stuff, and she has lived with pain for a

long time. I know many people attribute the TMD to having braces and

the subsequent movement of the teeth, but it is my understanding that

that is not necessarily so. They aren't really sure why some people

have so much trouble.

It sounds like you, too, have a class II skeletal structure since you

mention an overbite/overjet and smaller mandible. I'm guessing you

probably have a lot of neck, shoulder, and back muscular pain, too.

My daughter (age 24) gets very painful knots that are awful. It was

explained that a person with class II often holds the head forward

and is off balance. Since the head is about the weight of a bowling

ball, the muscles in the neck, shoulders, and back have to strain.

The smaller, setback lower jaw (retrognathia) also meant that my

daughter's airway was narrow, resulting in obstructive sleep apnea

and the necessity to use a BiPAP machine to breathe at night. Very

annoying.

Her surgeon is a TMJ specialist at the University of Michigan. That

is why we selected him over someone locally to do her operation on 5-

14-02, a week ago. He told us that studies show 80% of the people

with TMD improve and 7% worsen--that would leave 13% staying the

same. We figured the odds, 93% so to speak, were with her. Since TMD

was not her only problem, we are hoping that even if the TMD did get

worse <fingers crossed--NOT!>, she would not have sleep apnea,

malocclusion, and muscular pain. Plus, she hated her smaller chin and

overall profile. So you can see there were many reasons for going the

surgery route. She had upper, lower, and genioplasty. She had hit

rock bottom and figured the only way is up.

We won't know for some time just what the surgery did or did not do.

So far, it looks good--and that's with swelling still present. She

got her " old face " back from when she was an adolescent. I've been

looking at pictures of her when she was 12-13 years old. Funny.

Best of luck to you. I know from my daughter's experience that TMD is

absolutely miserable to deal with day in and day out. You never can

get away from it--it's always there. Sue

[Guest guest]

Hmmm, interesting, Sue,

I have a forward head carriage too. Don't suppose that will go away

after surgery, will it?

Cheryl

[Guest guest]

> > > Hi everyone

> > > Just wanted to say that you should all be VERY careful when

going

> > > down this path we are all on...I myself got braces to simply

> > > straighten my teeth. But they told me I had a deep overbite and

> > > therefore need to have orthognathic surgery to advance my lower

> jaw

> > > forward. So next thing I know I am in pre-surgery braces. My

bite

> > is

> > > made dramatically worse so that it will be in place post op.

But

> > the

> > > the worse overbite and new overjet cause my Tempormandibular

> Joints

> > > (TMJ) to spasm like crazy. started with horrible head, jaw,

neck

> > pain

> > > which continued but I also started getting soar eyes, forehead,

> jaw

> > > joints, temples, behind the ear pain and so on. The exact cause

> is

> > un

> > > known,there are many unknowns and tmj is incredibly difficult

to

> > make

> > > better, few docs even deal with it. TMJ surgery is almost

always

> > > unsuccessful and leads to more pain. Point is that tmj related

> pain

> > > can be incrdibly painful, although it varies. I happen to be

less

> > > lucky because I cannot even function yet my friends only

problem

> is

> > > that she clicks and pops...but no pain. So if you start having

> such

> > > pains after braces come on, be sure you find a tmj specialist

> > befire

> > > it gets worse. I didn';t even knnow why I had teh pain, but was

> > > totaly ignored by my ortho and 2 years later no one will help

me

> > > because my case is so complicated. I can't even work because

the

> > pain

> > > makes it impossible to focus. I am no longer a member of this

> board

> > > because fixing my teeth and profile for aesthetic reasons is

not

> a

> > > priority. My pain is my #1 priority. I hope few people here

ever

> > get

> > > this debilitating condition, but since I am not on this board,

> feel

> > > free to e-mail me if anyone has any Q's. there are tmj support

> > groups

> > > as well if anyone needs more info.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > > Vicki