Re: AA in Cuba, cults, Gurdjieff, etc.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/16/98 3:48:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,

babystrange@... writes:

> Henders, I enjoy your posts very much. Enjoy the Holidays-----

>

> ---

>

> ,

I enjoy reading yours, too. Wish you'd take this damn screen off, though.

Henders

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[Guest guest]

AA in Cuba, cults, Gurdjieff, etc.

Hi, Henders---

Funny how we look at a similar problem in different ways, but still reach some similar conclusions.

I'm an atheist/humanist, and I tend to view people's gullibility and desire for existential reassurance

as a sign of intellectual laziness. It is so much easier to swallow a bunch of pap than it is to

stop and think about why things are as they are. It was much easier for me to sit in church basements and memorize a bunch of nifty catchphrases than it would have been for me to stop and

analyze why my life was such an impossible mess.

I work in a bookstore, and the shit people buy in their attempts to gain reassurance without having to

expend any thought at all never fails to amaze me. Just take a look at the New York Times bestseller list to get an idea--years ago the Nonfiction list usually had a lot of watered-down psych.

on it, and it still generally does. But in recent years, as " New Age " ideas have entered the mainstream, the List has carried an increasing amount of New Age fairy tales--and people buy and believe in this stuff. It is pseudoscience at best, outright lies of the most cynical kind at worst, and

this kind of thing is no longer seen as " wierd " or " far out " .

I sometimes ponder the rise in credibility of New Age beliefs among the general population as related to the increasing popularity of the idea of " spiritual diseases " such as alcoholism, drug addiction, codependency, and " addictions " to food, sex, shopping, and gambling. Most of the New Age writers like to portray personal and social problems as spiritual dysfunctions as well--our energy doesn't vibrate at a high enough level, we rely too much on logic, when we become more spiritually evolved we will be able to communicate with " higher beings " (angels, aliens, etc.). The idea that to change the world everyone must attune with higher energy by constantly looking inward runs through most of the material I have examined. The ideal seems to be a world where everybody is operating on the same spiritual frequency, but since that ain't gonna happen it isn't surprising that so many odd cults

are popping up. All of the Y2K/Millenarian nuttiness that abounds isn't helping matters right now; 1999 is going to be a very interesting year for this fringe-watcher, oh yeah.

Sometimes, I want to think that the problem is not intellectual laziness or existential terror, but

rather a lack of critical thinking skills. Almost nobody here in the States is taught to think as a normal part of education, and there is a very strong current of anti-intellectualism in this culture. We love our geniuses when they invent the lightbulb, or the telephone, or other gadgets, but Americans have tremendous suspicion and hostility toward people whose thinking and analysis doesn't serve any " practical " use. Such people are considered wierd, even dangerous. They must be watched, harassed, laughed at, shunned, and if they insist on continuing they must occasionally be done away with as dangerous (and only paranoid radicals will protest).

Do cultists deserve what they get? That's a good question. It sounds odd for me to say that I deserved to spend over 4 years in AA, but it was the price I paid for refusing to think and accept responsibility for myself. I can bitch and moan about what a victim I was, or I can pick up and move on and help others do the same. It sounds harsh to say the Heaven's Gate, Solar Temple, or town folks deserved what they got by committing suicide en masse, but if those individuals truly believed in what they were doing, that death was the path to salvation, then yes, I have to say they deserved it.

The kids who were made to drink cyanide, the members who were murdered for not going quietly, they were victims. Railroad Rita and Tommy Perkins are both victims of the 12-step mentality; they were bullied into unnecessary " treatment " . I see the prevailing irrationality and anti-intellectualism as the source of this kind of victimization, however; in my mind the gurus and 12-step leaders are merely symptoms of the problem at hand, not causes.

Henders, I enjoy your posts very much. Enjoy the Holidays-----

---

I feel sorry for people who get caught up in groups such as Gurdjieff's Workor AA, but I also believe they got there because they are " spiritually lazy. " They want someone else to do their thinking for them and tell them how to actand think. It's so much easier to sit and nod your head and do as you're toldthan to ponder and sometimes even agonize over what is true, or what is right.They are too lazy to pick up a Bible, Koran, or other sacred writings thathave been handed down from generation to generation for thousands of years,and read, study and seek God in their own hearts. Maybe they don't know how tobe still and listen to their own inner voice. Maybe they even deserve to eat drug-laced pudding and die for being sospiritually flaccid, but I don't think so. The ones to blame are the

unconscionable perpetrators like Gurdjieff and Bill W. who prey on vulnerable,well-meaning people.I think God gave us a mind of our own that he intended for us to use. That'swhy I really enjoy this forum of people who obviously think for themselves.Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah -- and keep on thinking free.Henders

[Guest guest]

melissa, henders - I think you are both correct in noting that laziness -

and narcissism, too - correlate with accepting " spiritual " answers to

problems of living. However, I believe there is more to it than that.

After all, some cultists work very hard at proselytizing, communicating,

even writing books. Moreover, look how complicated the intellectual

structure is that has been built up around the " addiction " concept (eg,

addiction, alcoholism, co-alcoholic, co-dependent, adult child, dual

addiction, cross addiction, dual diagnosis, etc). Now, I view all of this

as similar to the conceptual structures that were built up about the

concept of " witchcraft " centuries ago. Or, if you prefer, compare them to

complex theological discussions about, say, the nature of " angels " (eg, do

they occupy space, can they travel infinite distance in no time, are they

present on earth, do they interfere in human lives, etc., etc.) Something

more than laziness and narcissism is going on. Let me suggest that

" spiritual " programs for living differ from " materialistic " or practical

programs for living. I think these are the two, basically different, types

of " programs " (or " plans for living " ) that human beings utilize. Spiritual

programs always try to change THE BELIEVER. Most often, spiritual programs

aim at an attitude of " acceptance, " " peace, " " adjustment, " " tolerance, "

etc. That is, spiritual programs urge the devotee to " just let go, " and to

turn the decision making for material matters over to some higher power.

Materialistic plans, on the other hand, are basically different. A

material plan for living always directs the individual to some external

event or condition, which he or she is interested in changing or

controlling. A materialistic plan aims at changing some aspect of the REAL

WORLD, RATHER THAN ADJUSTING THE BELIEVER TO THE WORLD AS IT IS. With the

rise of 12-Steps, right-wing religious cults, New Age, UFOers, Near Death

experiencers, etc, the US has seen a dramatic rise in " spiritual "

philosophy in the last several decades. This has gone hand and hand, I

think, with a loss of control that many individuals believe they have

suffered. Many people now see themselves as " powerless, " over corporate

decisions, factory moves to other countries, downsizing, Washington

politics, the economy, etc, etc. The rise of " spirituality " in American

culture signals a dramatic change in the modal American " strategy of

living. " For a very long time, the average American was described by

European visitors as " materialistic, " " pragmatic, " " practical, "

" economically motivated, " " down to earth, " " can do, " " focused on the here

and now, " etc. All these words refer to a strategy of life focused

principally upon changing the world. But our culture and society has

evolved. Most Americans have become much more " spiritual, " focused upon

themselves, and thus are attempting to adjust to the changing world, rather

than trying to change the world. This discussion does NOT apply, of

course, to those who exercise real power in our society. In fact, just as

our economy is dividing us into two separate classes, have and have nots,

so our culture is dividing us into two types of persons utilizing two quite

different " programs for living " : " powerful materialists, " and " powerless

spirituality seekers. " Of course, the two types of contemporary Americans

interact, and form a system: fuehrers and followers.

----------

To: 12-step-freeegroups

Subject: Re: AA in Cuba, cults, Gurdjieff, etc.

Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 5:46 PM

AA in Cuba, cults, Gurdjieff, etc.

Hi, Henders---

Funny how we look at a similar problem in different ways, but still

reach some similar conclusions.

I'm an atheist/humanist, and I tend to view people's gullibility and

desire for existential reassurance

as a sign of intellectual laziness. It is so much easier to swallow a

bunch of pap than it is to

stop and think about why things are as they are. It was much easier

for me to sit in church basements and memorize a bunch of nifty

catchphrases than it would have been for me to stop and

analyze why my life was such an impossible mess.

I work in a bookstore, and the shit people buy in their attempts to

gain reassurance without having to

expend any thought at all never fails to amaze me. Just take a look at

the New York Times bestseller list to get an idea--years ago the Nonfiction

list usually had a lot of watered-down psych.

on it, and it still generally does. But in recent years, as " New Age "

ideas have entered the mainstream, the List has carried an increasing

amount of New Age fairy tales--and people buy and believe in this stuff.

It is pseudoscience at best, outright lies of the most cynical kind at

worst, and

this kind of thing is no longer seen as " wierd " or " far out " .

I sometimes ponder the rise in credibility of New Age beliefs among the

general population as related to the increasing popularity of the idea of

" spiritual diseases " such as alcoholism, drug addiction, codependency, and

" addictions " to food, sex, shopping, and gambling. Most of the New Age

writers like to portray personal and social problems as spiritual

dysfunctions as well--our energy doesn't vibrate at a high enough level, we

rely too much on logic, when we become more spiritually evolved we will be

able to communicate with " higher beings " (angels, aliens, etc.). The idea

that to change the world everyone must attune with higher energy by

constantly looking inward runs through most of the material I have

examined. The ideal seems to be a world where everybody is operating on

the same spiritual frequency, but since that ain't gonna happen it isn't

surprising that so many odd cults

are popping up. All of the Y2K/Millenarian nuttiness that abounds

isn't helping matters right now; 1999 is going to be a very interesting

year for this fringe-watcher, oh yeah.

Sometimes, I want to think that the problem is not intellectual

laziness or existential terror, but

rather a lack of critical thinking skills. Almost nobody here in the

States is taught to think as a normal part of education, and there is a

very strong current of anti-intellectualism in this culture. We love our

geniuses when they invent the lightbulb, or the telephone, or other

gadgets, but Americans have tremendous suspicion and hostility toward

people whose thinking and analysis doesn't serve any " practical " use. Such

people are considered wierd, even dangerous. They must be watched,

harassed, laughed at, shunned, and if they insist on continuing they must

occasionally be done away with as dangerous (and only paranoid radicals

will protest).

Do cultists deserve what they get? That's a good question. It sounds

odd for me to say that I deserved to spend over 4 years in AA, but it was

the price I paid for refusing to think and accept responsibility for

myself. I can bitch and moan about what a victim I was, or I can pick up

and move on and help others do the same. It sounds harsh to say the

Heaven's Gate, Solar Temple, or town folks deserved what they got by

committing suicide en masse, but if those individuals truly believed in

what they were doing, that death was the path to salvation, then yes, I

have to say they deserved it.

The kids who were made to drink cyanide, the members who were murdered

for not going quietly, they were victims. Railroad Rita and Tommy Perkins

are both victims of the 12-step mentality; they were bullied into

unnecessary " treatment " . I see the prevailing irrationality and

anti-intellectualism as the source of this kind of victimization, however;

in my mind the gurus and 12-step leaders are merely symptoms of the problem

at hand, not causes.

Henders, I enjoy your posts very much. Enjoy the Holidays-----

---

I feel sorry for people who get caught up in groups such as Gurdjieff's

Work

or AA, but I also believe they got there because they are " spiritually

lazy. "

They want someone else to do their thinking for them and tell them how

to act

and think. It's so much easier to sit and nod your head and do as

you're told

than to ponder and sometimes even agonize over what is true, or what is

right.

They are too lazy to pick up a Bible, Koran, or other sacred writings

that

have been handed down from generation to generation for thousands of

years,

and read, study and seek God in their own hearts. Maybe they don't know

how to

be still and listen to their own inner voice.

Maybe they even deserve to eat drug-laced pudding and die for being so

spiritually flaccid, but I don't think so. The ones to blame are the

unconscionable perpetrators like Gurdjieff and Bill W. who prey on

vulnerable,

well-meaning people.

I think God gave us a mind of our own that he intended for us to use.

That's

why I really enjoy this forum of people who obviously think for

themselves.

Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah -- and keep on thinking free.Henders

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