Guest guest Posted July 2, 1999 Report Share Posted July 2, 1999 and : The reason I am in this group is the result of my fiance's son being killed three days before our wedding. That was April 11. It IS okay to hurt, to be angry, to grieve, but like you, I feel so damned lost and alone. I feel guilty partly because I loved that boy and treated him better than any of my children. He drove an hour each way every Tuesday on his day off to see us and bring our grandchild. His dad said we talked about things he never discussed with him or his mother. I only knew him for three years, but I have no regrets about things I didn't say or do. I always made sure to hug and kiss him good-bye and send food with him and it felt right and good. I felt like I was a good mother to him-something I lacked with my own children because of my drinking and the amount of meetings I went to after I joined AA (So much time wasted when I should have been raising my children). I was a single mom, too-three children, going to college, going to meetings and working. How I got a 3.57 GPA is beyond me-with all that going on. I was so busy they grew up before I knew it. The youngest of the thress is almost 21 now. I've digressed, here. Sorry. Sometimes I wonder if I'll ever stop hurting. I'm surprised I didn't drink, but realized that drinking has never really been my problem. It is the way I think and process my thoughts and emotions. I can be self-destuctive in so many other ways. I am so sorry about your losses. Very sorry. I hope you find peace in yourselves. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5204 > , > > I am so sorry about the deaths...I am so very sorry:( > > {{{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}}} > > It is ok to hurt honey...it is ok to hurt very badly at times....and you are > right, the first thing that would have came out of an AA mouth is exactly > what you said. My husband died on christmas day 1994, I had been sober for > over 4 years...I held on as long as I could and relapsed 8 months > later....and it wasn't the damn alcoholism that made me drink. It was being > borderline and not knowing it and accepting it. I don't know if I could do > any better today than I did then. All we can do is the best we can with what > is in front of us, with what has been dealt to us. Life hurts. And the more > we can accept that and not fight it.... > > , I am so sorry....so very sorry....dang I wish I could do more > besides say I am sorry. Words are so useless at times it seems.... > > > > > > > please don't do this!! It's not about hate its about wanting people to > >see that The Program is detrimental to your mental health. There is nothing > >healthy about it. I am sorry if I sounded harsh, I really did not mean to > >hurt your feeling. But I do hate them for there promises for there mind games > >and there lies. I lost my father 2 months ago and lost my Grandfather today. > >My AA group would have said as long as I don't drink over it , it will be ok > >today. Bullshit!! I hurt like crazy and that is acceptable behavior. I need > >to feel this to be human!!! It's not all about the drink. Its being able to > >live like a person again, to have my own feelings and not have to apologize > >for them > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >eGroups Spotlight: > > " Egg and Egg Products " - There's more to eggs than eating them for > > breakfast! If you are a producer or a user this group is for you. > > http://clickhere./click/114 > > > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 1999 Report Share Posted July 2, 1999 --- Hi list, There is another major reason why AA and 12-step-free cannot be considered two sides of the same coin, and why the idea of a " middle ground " is ludicrous -- all the alternative programs used by 12sf members (including no program at all) are completely voluntary, and it would be safe to assume that those utilizing such programs or philosophies are deriving benefit from them. OTOH, it is well-documented that up to 50% of attendees at any given AA meeting are there INvoluntarily -- by court or employer order, under threat of losing their job, their children, their professional licenses, or their freedom from prison. Some of these folks are required not just to attend, but to report to their captors on their " progress " on working the steps, getting a sponsor, etc. A great many coerced attendees aren't even alcoholic at all, but merely misused alcohol on a single occasion. (My understanding is that 4 out of 5 people arrested for a first DUI and forced to attend AA would never even come close to meeting the DSM criteria for alcohol dependence.) What " beneficial " things are such people supposed to learn in AA, where in the very first step, they're required to claim that they're " powerless " over their drinking behavior, and they're not even allowed to speak unless they call themselves " alcoholics " ? A while back on the Usenet group ARAA, there was actually an argument over whether people who are NOT alcoholics should be welcome in AA; there was a large contingent that quoted the " 3rd Tradition " about " the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking " and used that to support the idea that no one should attempt to cut down or stop drinking on their own, and that AA should not be " snobbish " toward people who are clearly not alcoholic. Underlying this, of course, is the religious belief that the 12 steps are a path to " salvation " , and are beneficial for EVERYONE. Aren't there something like 250 12 step programs for various " spiritual diseases " (including one for people who are " powerless over homosexual urges " !) all using the identical insipid steps? And didn't the megalomaniac Bill write about the steps eventually eliminating and preventing every imaginable type of " moral turpitude " ? The combination of this kind of attitude, and the willingness to sign attendance slips, is what makes AA culpable for the continuing practice of coercion. The coercion itself is done by small-minded people with power who incorrectly believe that (1) sobriety is impossible without belonging to a " recovery group " and (2) that the " best " (or even the " only " ) recovery program is AA. , if you feel AA and the steps are meaningful to you or are spiritually uplifting, then by all means continue to be involved with them. But if you are freely able to make the choice of whether or not to go to " meetings " , you are luckier than many. ~Rita -------------------------------------- >It is true that 12-step-free would not exist if AA did not exist, but I don't think there is a " symbiotic " relationship, or that 12-step-free is a structure. For the most part we share our experiences about AA and about getting free of AA. > >I don't think there can be a middle ground as long as AA claims it's the " only way. " (People have told me that AA never claims this, but I have heard it often enough, even from people who have relapsed continually for a decade or more. They believe that they are doing something wrong, because AA can't be wrong.) > >I think that certain principles of AA are useful. You don't need to belong to AA to learn about them, use them, or believe them. " Live and let live " is a handy example. But I have met few AA members who really know how to do this. > > wrote: >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5165 >> Hi Everyone:) >> >> I have some questions. For I know I have often taken ideas to an extreme. >> Finding a healthy center or middle ground is not always easy for me. >> >> I like this list. I like some of the things I have been learning. But, I >> also like some of what AA has taught me. >> >> So....where is the middle ground, if there is one, between AA and 12 step >> free? Isn't there anything that any of you learned in AA that you find >> beneficial? I see much I can gain from this list and AA. >> >> A very dear person in my life, whose wisdom I respect, (My >> boyfriend)..mailed the following thoughts to me last night. >> >> >> He said: >> >Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is >> >create another structure. It is no different from any other structure, >> >really. It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA, >> >12-step free would fall to peices. " Free " is in a symbiotic >> >relationship to AA. The two structures serve as a system of checks and >> >balances. >> >> Pretty sharp eh? Well, I happen to think so. It is a strong point when we >> can see the middle ground ...when we can see that one is opposing the other, >> so hence, we will of course fall way to the right, or way to the left. It >> reminds me of a great writer from England, C.S . Who once spoke of the >> two extremes. And everybody taking sides and getting split down the middle. >> No one was bothering to look if either side was right or wrong. If either >> side could find a middle ground. And that maybe, just maybe both sides were >> so wrong, but no one could see this? They felt they had to take sides. No >> one was looking in the middle. >> >> I want to look in the middle, and am not quite sure how. Like I have said, I >> don't want to dump AA completely yet. But, I also feel like a breath of >> fresh air has hit me, and it is coming from this list. >> >> Thanks, >> > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 1999 Report Share Posted July 2, 1999 Hey ; He sure did bring ladies home sober and he had a permanent one stashed in the GSO also. That one he kept till he died. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 1999 Report Share Posted July 2, 1999 My first sponsor in AA told me that I had no business raising a child when I could not even help myself, that she would have all the genetic tendencies toward alcohol and drug abuse as me , and that this was a selfish program and that I needed to put myself first. That was when I was 18. My Daughter has been raised by my parents ever since, and I took the AA steps to virtual hell and I am just getting back now. I am 31 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 1999 Report Share Posted July 2, 1999 johnhollister@... writes: > I just reread 's letter. accused him of attacking her and > ripping her to shreds in his letter. He attacks AA substantially, and > defends the 12-step free group, but I don't see that he showed any > malice to in any way. If anything his words were meant to > enlighten and even carried a disclaimer that she was free to believe as > she wished. Other than a faulty third-person pronoun (I'm a " she, " but this is a fairly common error and one I'm not the least surprised or offended by), I'd say that this was correct in its essentials. When I wrote that: " this sounds as if you didn't really want honest opinions, but merely wanted to have people validate your own decisions " it seems I was more correct than I imagined. Not only did I say she was free to believe or disbelieve anything she read here - my own words included - I encouraged her to think for herself. But apparently, this was too hateful and threatening a concept for her to grasp. I find this rather sad. Regards, ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 Hi and All; I think beyond our mutual dislike for AA we need share some other things. Freedom of speech and expression. Attack the idea, not the person. Being a PTSD person myself, I would have felt attacked by that post . The difference is I would have came out kicking ass, where she retreated. The difference is she is 18 months into getting better and I'm several times that and have completed therapy. A wise old Blacksmith from North Dakota once told me. " You can attack a mans ideas, you can criticise his work, but never attack his dignity or you'll make a lifelong enemy. " The statement " Let me get this straight! " is the rhetoric of a prosecutor on cross examination, trying to shake somebody a little. Not only that, it was rhetorical and unnecessary, though good to make a point. I don't disagree with using it, but call a spade a spade, its an aggressive phrase(Wish I had a spell checker) that's used that way everyday. She couldn't handle the heat so she got out of the kitchen. Isn't that what we all did getting loose from AA? I believe we should respect other sufferers choices, even when WE think they are wrong. How can we ask for that respect otherwise? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 Hi and All; I think beyond our mutual dislike for AA we need share some other things. Freedom of speech and expression. Attack the idea, not the person. Being a PTSD person myself, I would have felt attacked by that post . The difference is I would have came out kicking ass, where she retreated. The difference is she is 18 months into getting better and I'm several times that and have completed therapy. A wise old Blacksmith from North Dakota once told me. " You can attack a mans ideas, you can criticise his work, but never attack his dignity or you'll make a lifelong enemy. " The statement " Let me get this straight! " is the rhetoric of a prosecutor on cross examination, trying to shake somebody a little. Not only that, it was rhetorical and unnecessary, though good to make a point. I don't disagree with using it, but call a spade a spade, its an aggressive phrase(Wish I had a spell checker) that's used that way everyday. She couldn't handle the heat so she got out of the kitchen. Isn't that what we all did getting loose from AA? I believe we should respect other sufferers choices, even when WE think they are wrong. How can we ask for that respect otherwise? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 Hi Carol; Even the government is wising up about 12step " Treatment " The TX centers here in Iowa are closing because they are becoming unprofitable. Due to my disability I have Medecaid. They will now pay for inpatient alcoholism treatment only after failure in an outpatient program and a medecaid person gets two inpatient treatments in a lifetime, that's it. We had treatment centers everywhere there was a hospital ten years ago, many 40 bed units. Within a 50 mile radius of where I live there is now 1 eight bed unit, that's it. Medecaid got wise that the same two or three hundred people were keeping these 40 and 50 bed units in business. They will however pay for four day detox in a hospital if your doctor says it's necessary. Longer of course at the doctors discretion. However, the MD will only only do that for valid medical reasons. If twelve steps worked so well, how come the same folks need 30 treatments. Most of those centers would recomend you come in for treatment if you were a year sober and feared you'd relapse, what a racket. Then they'd collect eight thousand to room and board you for two weeks, maybe run you through a bunch of medical tests to pad the bill. It was one hell of a cash cow for hospitals while it lasted. The most ridiculous part of treatment is that during treatment you have to be hurt in order to feel better. Rather like doing surgery without anasthesia because I'm a bad person. Out from under the 12 step spell it seems like the silliest most abusive thing I can imagine. If a doctor told me " You were stupid breaking that arm, so I'm going to wait a couple of days to set it to teach you a lesson. " I'd sue the SOB after I got another doc to set it. Yet I allowed TX to do virtually the same thing. If something is done to a convict and a court calls it cruel and unusual punishment, why can the same thing be done in a hospital and be called " Treatment " , I think the term is mistreatment. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 Hi Carol; Even the government is wising up about 12step " Treatment " The TX centers here in Iowa are closing because they are becoming unprofitable. Due to my disability I have Medecaid. They will now pay for inpatient alcoholism treatment only after failure in an outpatient program and a medecaid person gets two inpatient treatments in a lifetime, that's it. We had treatment centers everywhere there was a hospital ten years ago, many 40 bed units. Within a 50 mile radius of where I live there is now 1 eight bed unit, that's it. Medecaid got wise that the same two or three hundred people were keeping these 40 and 50 bed units in business. They will however pay for four day detox in a hospital if your doctor says it's necessary. Longer of course at the doctors discretion. However, the MD will only only do that for valid medical reasons. If twelve steps worked so well, how come the same folks need 30 treatments. Most of those centers would recomend you come in for treatment if you were a year sober and feared you'd relapse, what a racket. Then they'd collect eight thousand to room and board you for two weeks, maybe run you through a bunch of medical tests to pad the bill. It was one hell of a cash cow for hospitals while it lasted. The most ridiculous part of treatment is that during treatment you have to be hurt in order to feel better. Rather like doing surgery without anasthesia because I'm a bad person. Out from under the 12 step spell it seems like the silliest most abusive thing I can imagine. If a doctor told me " You were stupid breaking that arm, so I'm going to wait a couple of days to set it to teach you a lesson. " I'd sue the SOB after I got another doc to set it. Yet I allowed TX to do virtually the same thing. If something is done to a convict and a court calls it cruel and unusual punishment, why can the same thing be done in a hospital and be called " Treatment " , I think the term is mistreatment. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 1999 Report Share Posted July 4, 1999 Hi Apple, and All; It's possible that " Clancy " even stole his name from an early AA member, now dead. Municipal Court Judge Ray on, went by the name " Clancy " and joined AA in the early 40's. Matter of fact he wrote a book titled " Clancy Got Well " about his life and alcoholism. I don't know if there are any copies around anymore. I read the book in the early 60's and recognized who it was, because I knew The Judge. I don't recall if he used his true name as author. He was famous for his " Court Classes " for drunks and several cities copied them. They weren't AA, just story and Q & A sessions. He was the one who told me that if I'd stay sober 2 years they couldn't make whiskey good enough for me to drink. He was right and he didn't qualify that with going to AA meetings, just don't drink. My old sponsor(1st one) had Ray for a sponsor. Before the advent of TX centers, he sentenced guys to 2 days in jail, 10 dollar fine or 4 court classes, take your pick. for public intox. Nobody had to go to jail unless they'd rather. Four hours of his Court Classes always seemed better than the alternatives to me. You didn't have to go to four consecutive CC's. If you missed one just catch it later. However, best not get arrested again before you completed or he'd get a tad irritated. You wouldn't like it if you pissed him off cause 30 days was the max. For the two and three time a week guys he handed out 30 days suspended a couple of times then enforce all three on a third conviction for a total of 90 days in jail. The advent of the detox center decriminalized public intox. However, that ended 3 years ago and Public Intox is again a criminal offense. If they truly believe alcoholism is a disease, then having public intox be a crime is like having " Being under the influence of heart disease in a public place " , should also be a crime. Makes sense to me anyway, fall down in the street with a heart attack and they take you to jail. I would challenge it that way, I think it's a potential winner or the demise of the disease idea, and it really doesn't matter which. My primary care doctor doesn't believe in the disease thing and believes I'm living proof. He has no problem prescribing pain relievers for me. My previous doctor was an internist with a long time AA father. He bought the whole enchillada and would recomend against aspirin for an ex drunk. Why drunks are supposed to live with constant pain to get well has always been a mystery to me. However, every treatment I've ever been in has advocated just that. It's sin and pennance when you get down to the nitty gritty, ala St Augustine who ate his own feces for punishment for addiction. And they made him a saint for doing it. What a crock of....... for St Augustine anyway. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 1999 Report Share Posted July 4, 1999 Hi ; On another list a woman said that when she left Alanon she discoverd that " Thorns have Roses " . I think I had heard it somewhere before, but I still like it. It fits with 12step beliefs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 1999 Report Share Posted July 4, 1999 Hi Rita; I was one of those folks Kayleigh mentioned who thought AA was the only way, even though I kept relapsing for decades. AA is rather like folks we've seen who promote the controversy and then claim either to be injured by it or be no part of it at all and wonder what the fuss is all about. AA allows no middle ground and brooks no disagreement. When I finally got proper therapy, I had more trouble dealing with the abuse heaped on me in AA, than that from my childhood. In so called treatment the ends justify the means. I've had therapist's in 12steps lie to me. When I discover it and call them on it, I get " So, I lied, I couldn't get your cooperation otherwise " I was so fed up that when the parole board told me I had to go to treatment to get a parole I refused. I had a tad over three years in on 25. However, I sued and got my parole a few months later. I sued on the basis the board wasn't qualified to know if I needed treatment or not. This was a minefield for the state if it went class, they'd not be able to force anyone without hiring shrinks and running an evaluation program. Mucho bucks involved. The State responded with a consent decree and after the court signed on, I was outta' there. I had asked for a parole since the board had said they'd grant parole after treatment. The State Psychologist who saw me for 30 minutes every six months had approved me for parole at the 2 year mark. He couldn't very well reverse himself and say that two months after an approved he changed his mind and I needed further treatment. He had given me an approved not just at 2 years, but at the next two reviews also. The shame of it is nobody followed up and there were a couple or three guys capable. Guys in the joint get so afraid they'll make a wave, they'll sit in there instead of taking a risk. My risk wasn't as big as it looked, but still large. A 25 in Iowa with good and honor time off, discharges in 10 years and 4 months. I got out May 4, 81, sentence expiration would have been Dec 29, 87. Rose and I were married a month and 4 days when that date came. I really had 6 and a half years left, not the 21 plus it looks like on its' face. Still it was a fair sized risk. Sick as it may sound. At the time I didn't really care. In prison I was a success, I had failed at everything I tried in the free world including staying sober. I was single with no family that wanted me around and no idea where I'd go or what I would do. Why I never got back into crime I don't know, but I didn't. I guess things just happened too fast to think much about it. Things in the free world run at Fast Forward, when compared to prison. I got out, moved into a minister's house, got a disability check approved, taught vacation bible school(Fun that), gave talks in churches about the prision system and A Lawyer who knew me from a case hired me to clerk for him, all in two months time. Then I started going to AA, then started drinking again. It had been over 4 years since I'd had a drink and I was on my butt in a hurry. I still think that going back to AA was my downfall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 1999 Report Share Posted July 4, 1999 Hi ; One time in an open meeting, when it came Rose's turn she took a plaque off the wall. The plaque was a short essay by Bill W on how AA would have to change with the times to avoid stagnation. Rose asked if anyone had read it. Then she read it and everyone sat open mouthed. No one in the group could comprehend the idea of change. The group of course was stagnant. Even today, I could mentally go around that group and know what everyone would say, it was that predictable. Each had a speech for each step and two people always just read something from a 24 hour book for their sharing. After Rose and I left the group fell apart. We didn't cause that, it was dying anyway. The controversy that surrounded our leaving sped the process up, most likely, but it would have died anyway. Of course AA is anti women. It was written by a philandering husband who wanted to continue his affairs and still be considered a good husband and a great guy. How else could the book come out besides anti women? AA brooks no dissent and allows no middle ground. It promotes a them v us, mentality. You either believe or don't, you're in or out, all in black and white. Fortunately the real world doesn't work that way. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 1999 Report Share Posted July 4, 1999 Was Clancy the guy at University Synagogue in Brentwood??? (LA) I met his daughter, or supposed daughter, and she is writing a book that I'm sure must be related to her relationship with him. She went on and on when I met her but I was unsure how to react. She is here locally. How interesting. Kathy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 1999 Report Share Posted July 4, 1999 A A A A GH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have been going backward through today's mail, and just read this..........UNIVERSITY SYNAGOGUE, Saltair and Sunset Blvd. I spent my childhood at St. of Tour's on the other side of Sunset. (sounds like a book title, and it was, oh was it ever, the other side of Sunset!!!!!!!!!!!!) THAT IS HIS DAUGHTER LIVING HERE!!!!! Oh my Gosh and I didn't believe her....... This is unbelievable. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 1999 Report Share Posted July 4, 1999 So true . Thanks for another graphically accurate description of the sad state of affairs in AA meetings today. Towards the end of my meeting attendance I found it necessary to wear dark glasses so that I could take naps while avoiding detection. Boooorrrriiinnnnnnng!!!! Luckily I don't snore. I can't think of anything more nullifying to the creative force than regular AA meeting attendance. Joe was right when he mentioned that being a " 12 step free " photographer could improve one's compositions, and artistic inspiration. It has been so with me. I often wonder how all of those actors and artists in AA manage to sustain their artistic integrity. I even know of an actor who won an Academy Award and continues to receive accolades all while in the program. I don't get it. He even gave talks at the " Pacific Group " which is one of the most radical and cult like groups in AA. The Pacific Group is a cult(over 1500? strong) within a cult, and is presided over by one of AA's most controversial front men. His name is Clancy I. and his Wednesday night meeting on Sunset Blvd. in LA has a regular attendance of 1000 people. People in this group are not allowed to were beards or mustaches, and if the give an AA talk they are required to wear a coat and tie or a dress. I've even heard that dating outside the group is strongly discouraged. Clancy is a very popular and powerful speaker. One of his central themes is that alcoholism is exacerbated by the alcoholic's desire to be different. My case is different is purported to be the alcoholics rallying cry and the contributing factor in relapse. Message: Difference-Bad Conformity-Good. It's ironic that in Clancy's pitch he clearly states that the worst thing he had to do in AA was give up his intellectual integrity. Now he dedicates his life to skillfully breaking the will and spirits of others as retribution for the neural neutering he received. His massive ego is only matched by the scale of the spiritual damage he does. Just badgering a handful of newcomers isn't good enough for him. He influences thousands through his worldwide speaking engagements, but even that isn't enough. He runs a huge mission in downtown LA which brings him innumerable opportunities for hopeless newcomer power trips. He even has softball games in his back yard for his " babies " who are treated to the privilege of cleaning up his dogs' excrement. Remember, never turn down an AA request! I believe that Clancy's compulsive evangelism is merely a response to his own self betrayal which he himself fully acknowledges and was admittedly the worst thing he had done in his life. I am inclined to agree, however I think it takes second place to the abuses he has heaped upon thousands in the balance. Of course this doesn't even take into consideration the actions of his minions. AA's claim to fire my imagination has been completely unfounded. I have found that departing AA has been a thoroughly inspiring proposition, and that AA has done nothing but sap my creativity. The very nature of the Alcoholics Anonymous is to gradually eradicate individuality and original thought, until one is completely absorbed into the collective. Homey don't play that no more. Vive la difference!!!!!!!!!!!! D Hall wrote: > > Hi ; > > One time in an open meeting, when it came Rose's turn she took a > plaque off the wall. > > The plaque was a short essay by Bill W on how AA would have to > change with the times to avoid stagnation. Rose asked if anyone > had read it. Then she read it and everyone sat open mouthed. No > one in the group could comprehend the idea of change. The group > of course was stagnant. Even today, I could mentally go around > that group and know what everyone would say, it was that > predictable. Each had a speech for each step and two people > always just read something from a 24 hour book for their sharing. > After Rose and I left the group fell apart. We didn't cause that, it > was dying anyway. The controversy that surrounded our leaving > sped the process up, most likely, but it would have died anyway. > > Of course AA is anti women. It was written by a philandering > husband who wanted to continue his affairs and still be considered > a good husband and a great guy. How else could the book come > out besides anti women? > > AA brooks no dissent and allows no middle ground. It promotes a > them v us, mentality. You either believe or don't, you're in or out, > all in black and white. Fortunately the real world doesn't work that > way. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning > FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program. > http://clickhere./click/449 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 1999 Report Share Posted July 4, 1999 So true . Thanks for another graphically accurate description of the sad state of affairs in AA meetings today. Towards the end of my meeting attendance I found it necessary to wear dark glasses so that I could take naps while avoiding detection. Boooorrrriiinnnnnnng!!!! Luckily I don't snore. I can't think of anything more nullifying to the creative force than regular AA meeting attendance. Joe was right when he mentioned that being a " 12 step free " photographer could improve one's compositions, and artistic inspiration. It has been so with me. I often wonder how all of those actors and artists in AA manage to sustain their artistic integrity. I even know of an actor who won an Academy Award and continues to receive accolades all while in the program. I don't get it. He even gave talks at the " Pacific Group " which is one of the most radical and cult like groups in AA. The Pacific Group is a cult(over 1500? strong) within a cult, and is presided over by one of AA's most controversial front men. His name is Clancy I. and his Wednesday night meeting on Sunset Blvd. in LA has a regular attendance of 1000 people. People in this group are not allowed to were beards or mustaches, and if the give an AA talk they are required to wear a coat and tie or a dress. I've even heard that dating outside the group is strongly discouraged. Clancy is a very popular and powerful speaker. One of his central themes is that alcoholism is exacerbated by the alcoholic's desire to be different. My case is different is purported to be the alcoholics rallying cry and the contributing factor in relapse. Message: Difference-Bad Conformity-Good. It's ironic that in Clancy's pitch he clearly states that the worst thing he had to do in AA was give up his intellectual integrity. Now he dedicates his life to skillfully breaking the will and spirits of others as retribution for the neural neutering he received. His massive ego is only matched by the scale of the spiritual damage he does. Just badgering a handful of newcomers isn't good enough for him. He influences thousands through his worldwide speaking engagements, but even that isn't enough. He runs a huge mission in downtown LA which brings him innumerable opportunities for hopeless newcomer power trips. He even has softball games in his back yard for his " babies " who are treated to the privilege of cleaning up his dogs' excrement. Remember, never turn down an AA request! I believe that Clancy's compulsive evangelism is merely a response to his own self betrayal which he himself fully acknowledges and was admittedly the worst thing he had done in his life. I am inclined to agree, however I think it takes second place to the abuses he has heaped upon thousands in the balance. Of course this doesn't even take into consideration the actions of his minions. AA's claim to fire my imagination has been completely unfounded. I have found that departing AA has been a thoroughly inspiring proposition, and that AA has done nothing but sap my creativity. The very nature of the Alcoholics Anonymous is to gradually eradicate individuality and original thought, until one is completely absorbed into the collective. Homey don't play that no more. Vive la difference!!!!!!!!!!!! D Hall wrote: > > Hi ; > > One time in an open meeting, when it came Rose's turn she took a > plaque off the wall. > > The plaque was a short essay by Bill W on how AA would have to > change with the times to avoid stagnation. Rose asked if anyone > had read it. Then she read it and everyone sat open mouthed. No > one in the group could comprehend the idea of change. The group > of course was stagnant. Even today, I could mentally go around > that group and know what everyone would say, it was that > predictable. Each had a speech for each step and two people > always just read something from a 24 hour book for their sharing. > After Rose and I left the group fell apart. We didn't cause that, it > was dying anyway. The controversy that surrounded our leaving > sped the process up, most likely, but it would have died anyway. > > Of course AA is anti women. It was written by a philandering > husband who wanted to continue his affairs and still be considered > a good husband and a great guy. How else could the book come > out besides anti women? > > AA brooks no dissent and allows no middle ground. It promotes a > them v us, mentality. You either believe or don't, you're in or out, > all in black and white. Fortunately the real world doesn't work that > way. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning > FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program. > http://clickhere./click/449 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 1999 Report Share Posted July 4, 1999 Hi Ben; My uncle used to say, " If you tipped the country on edge, all the frruits and nuts would wind up in California. " I don't think he was commenting on their agriculture. He lived in California most of his adult life, said it was a great place for single people. The California AA's I've met think alcoholics are way up on the moral ladder compared to drug addicts. They don't like to hear that Alcohol is in fact a drug. At the same time they push the disease concept that says basically alcohol and drug addiction are the same thing. Go figure. I wonder why the contradictions and circular reasoning plus codependent behavior expected from a good AA never seem to bother them, even when pointed out and painfully obvious. To try something again and again exactly the same way and expect different results is part of codependent behavior, yet I did it for many years repeatedly relapsing and know quite a few folks who are still at it. Rather like beat the dead horse harder this time and he'll come to life. Maybe it's " Clancy I. Moon " , what? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 1999 Report Share Posted July 4, 1999 A few months ago, I got an e-mail from a guy who said that he was taken to an AA old-timer's house and asked to scoop dog shit. I had not idea it was the famed Clancy's dogs' shit. I see more in the conformity versus individuality question. First of all, our culture is very big on individualism. Compare the US to let's say Japan or China. I would guess that the Clancy conformity trip is extra offensive to us Americans. If Clancy was Japanese, would he turn his newcomers into rugged individualists? I wonder... I would give my well thumbed copy of the Big Book to be able to attend one of the Clancy meetings. Better than a horror movie... As far as creativity, artist and 12 step groups are concerned, were you aware that there's a group called Artist Anonymous? Yes indeed. They use the 12 step model to overcome artists block. Quite a scream since the 12 step model is the antidote to any creativity as you have already pointed out. Apple original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5278 > So true . Thanks for another graphically accurate description of the > sad state of affairs in AA meetings today. Towards the end of my meeting > attendance I found it necessary to wear dark glasses so that I could > take naps while avoiding detection. Boooorrrriiinnnnnnng!!!! > > Luckily I don't snore. I can't think of anything more nullifying to the > creative force than regular AA meeting attendance. Joe was right when > he mentioned that being a " 12 step free " photographer could improve > one's compositions, and artistic inspiration. It has been so with me. I > often wonder how all of those actors and artists in AA manage to sustain > their artistic integrity. I even know of an actor who won an Academy > Award and continues to receive accolades all while in the program. I > don't get it. He even gave talks at the " Pacific Group " which is one of > the most radical and cult like groups in AA. > > The Pacific Group is a cult(over 1500? strong) within a cult, and is > presided over by one of AA's most controversial front men. His name is > Clancy I. and his Wednesday night meeting on Sunset Blvd. in LA has a > regular attendance of 1000 people. People in this group are not allowed > to were beards or mustaches, and if the give an AA talk they are > required to wear a coat and tie or a dress. I've even heard that dating > outside the group is strongly discouraged. Clancy is a very popular and > powerful speaker. One of his central themes is that alcoholism is > exacerbated by the alcoholic's desire to be different. My case is > different is purported to be the alcoholics rallying cry and the > contributing factor in relapse. Message: Difference-Bad > Conformity-Good. > > It's ironic that in Clancy's pitch he clearly states that the worst > thing he had to do in AA was give up his intellectual integrity. Now he > dedicates his life to skillfully breaking the will and spirits of others > as retribution for the neural neutering he received. His massive ego is > only matched by the scale of the spiritual damage he does. Just > badgering a handful of newcomers isn't good enough for him. He > influences thousands through his worldwide speaking engagements, but > even that isn't enough. He runs a huge mission in downtown LA which > brings him innumerable opportunities for hopeless newcomer power trips. > He even has softball games in his back yard for his " babies " who are > treated to the privilege of cleaning up his dogs' excrement. Remember, > never turn down an AA request! I believe that Clancy's compulsive > evangelism is merely a response to his own self betrayal which he > himself fully acknowledges and was admittedly the worst thing he had > done in his life. I am inclined to agree, however I think it takes > second place to the abuses he has heaped upon thousands in the balance. > Of course this doesn't even take into consideration the actions of his > minions. > > AA's claim to fire my imagination has been completely unfounded. I have > found that departing AA has been a thoroughly inspiring proposition, and > that AA has done nothing but sap my creativity. The very nature of the > Alcoholics Anonymous is to gradually eradicate individuality and > original thought, until one is completely absorbed into the collective. > Homey don't play that no more. > > Vive la difference!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 1999 Report Share Posted July 4, 1999 At 09:00 PM 7/4/99 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Apple, and All; > >It's possible that " Clancy " even stole his name from an early AA >member, now dead. > >Municipal Court Judge Ray on, went by the name " Clancy " >and joined AA in the early 40's. Matter of fact he wrote a book >titled " Clancy Got Well " about his life and alcoholism. I don't know >if there are any copies around anymore. I read the book in the >early 60's and recognized who it was, because I knew The Judge. I >don't recall if he used his true name as author. If a book was published, there are almost surely copies that exist, and they usually end up in the hands of a bookseller who will charge the going market rate for it. In recent years I've been fascinated with books (well, obsessed - much more so than in previous years, and I've always ben an avid reader). I have thousands of books (I'm pretty sure it's still less than 10,000), am on two booksellers/collectors' mailing lists, and have considered going into the used/out of print book business myself. Anyway, I found one copy on the metasearch engine bookfinder.com. It shows up three times, all at the same price from the same seller, so it's safe to assume it's the only copy in those databases. The $125 price is what I would expect for something written by an early AA. The First Edition Big Book, ANY printing, starts at $100 and goes WAY up from there (you don't want to know) depending on condition, if it's got the original dust jacket, how early the printing is, etc. And no, I don't have one. I have a couple of second editions, which are no big deal, but are fun to haul out (theoretically speaking, since I no longer go to meetings) when someone starts to quote the 'acceptance' paragraph on page 449 of the Third Edition. As for the modern Clancy, I assume this is the same legendary Clamcy I. (an unusual last name that I forget) from Califormia who has spoken at various AA conventions in Atlanta (and presumable everywhere else) over the years. I missed hearing him one evening, bought a tape of his talk the next day, then REALLY regretted not eing there so I could have walked out after one of his more outrageous AA-fundamentalist type statements. I forget exactly what the statement was, but it was very dismissive or someone or some group... Now I remember - it was about the 'watering down' of AA with the new-age, Adult-Child-Of-Alcoholic, Bradshaw stuff, all the things that were too 'liberal' for AA fundamentalists. I was into other 12-step groups such as CoDA, and those groups unwittingly offered me a stepping stone out of the fundamentalist AA that my sponsor was trying to spoon-feed me. What Clancy said was, almost word-for-word, 'You can have your ACOA meetings and all, that's just fine, as long as you leave that crap out of OUR AA meetings. This got a big long round of cheers and applause, surely a standing ovation. ----- http://listen.to/benbradley ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 1999 Report Share Posted July 4, 1999 There is a website that has a couple of Clancy's leads on it. You play it on RealPlayer. I can't remember any more how I found out about it, or what it's called. I went there once, but wasn't interested in listening to an hour or more of AA stuff. Does anyone here know how to get there? <7lp3lt$jnj-egroups> wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5279 > A few months ago, I got an e-mail from a guy who said that he was taken > to an AA old-timer's house and asked to scoop dog shit. I had not idea > it was the famed Clancy's dogs' shit. I see more in the conformity > versus individuality question. First of all, our culture is very big on > individualism. Compare the US to let's say Japan or China. I would > guess that the Clancy conformity trip is extra offensive to us > Americans. If Clancy was Japanese, would he turn his newcomers into > rugged individualists? I wonder... I would give my well thumbed copy > of the Big Book to be able to attend one of the Clancy meetings. Better > than a horror movie... > As far as creativity, artist and 12 step groups are concerned, were you > aware that there's a group called Artist Anonymous? Yes indeed. They > use the 12 step model to overcome artists block. Quite a scream since > the 12 step model is the antidote to any creativity as you have already > pointed out. > Apple > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5278 > > So true . Thanks for another graphically accurate description of > the > > sad state of affairs in AA meetings today. Towards the end of my > meeting > > attendance I found it necessary to wear dark glasses so that I could > > take naps while avoiding detection. Boooorrrriiinnnnnnng!!!! > > > > Luckily I don't snore. I can't think of anything more nullifying to > the > > creative force than regular AA meeting attendance. Joe was right when > > he mentioned that being a " 12 step free " photographer could improve > > one's compositions, and artistic inspiration. It has been so with me. > I > > often wonder how all of those actors and artists in AA manage to > sustain > > their artistic integrity. I even know of an actor who won an Academy > > Award and continues to receive accolades all while in the program. I > > don't get it. He even gave talks at the " Pacific Group " which is one > of > > the most radical and cult like groups in AA. > > > > The Pacific Group is a cult(over 1500? strong) within a cult, and is > > presided over by one of AA's most controversial front men. His name is > > Clancy I. and his Wednesday night meeting on Sunset Blvd. in LA has a > > regular attendance of 1000 people. People in this group are not > allowed > > to were beards or mustaches, and if the give an AA talk they are > > required to wear a coat and tie or a dress. I've even heard that > dating > > outside the group is strongly discouraged. Clancy is a very popular > and > > powerful speaker. One of his central themes is that alcoholism is > > exacerbated by the alcoholic's desire to be different. My case is > > different is purported to be the alcoholics rallying cry and the > > contributing factor in relapse. Message: Difference-Bad > > Conformity-Good. > > > > It's ironic that in Clancy's pitch he clearly states that the worst > > thing he had to do in AA was give up his intellectual integrity. Now > he > > dedicates his life to skillfully breaking the will and spirits of > others > > as retribution for the neural neutering he received. His massive ego > is > > only matched by the scale of the spiritual damage he does. Just > > badgering a handful of newcomers isn't good enough for him. He > > influences thousands through his worldwide speaking engagements, but > > even that isn't enough. He runs a huge mission in downtown LA which > > brings him innumerable opportunities for hopeless newcomer power > trips. > > He even has softball games in his back yard for his " babies " who are > > treated to the privilege of cleaning up his dogs' excrement. Remember, > > never turn down an AA request! I believe that Clancy's compulsive > > evangelism is merely a response to his own self betrayal which he > > himself fully acknowledges and was admittedly the worst thing he had > > done in his life. I am inclined to agree, however I think it takes > > second place to the abuses he has heaped upon thousands in the > balance. > > Of course this doesn't even take into consideration the actions of his > > minions. > > > > AA's claim to fire my imagination has been completely unfounded. I > have > > found that departing AA has been a thoroughly inspiring proposition, > and > > that AA has done nothing but sap my creativity. The very nature of > the > > Alcoholics Anonymous is to gradually eradicate individuality and > > original thought, until one is completely absorbed into the > collective. > > Homey don't play that no more. > > > > Vive la difference!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Hi Kathy, I didn't know Clancy had a daughter, but the big meeting is held in a huge Synagogue. He has become almost as legendary as the late Chuck Chamberlain. BALIHAI333@... wrote: > > Was Clancy the guy at University Synagogue in Brentwood??? (LA) I met his > daughter, or supposed daughter, and she is writing a book that I'm sure must > be related to her relationship with him. She went on and on when I met her > but I was unsure how to react. She is here locally. How interesting. Kathy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! > Try something new and discover more ways to save! > http://clickhere./click/381 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 At 11:05 PM 7/4/99 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Kathy, > >I didn't know Clancy had a daughter, but the big meeting is held in a >huge Synagogue. He has become almost as legendary as the late Chuck >Chamberlain. > > It amazes me to think about it now but I was a fundamentalist for a while, and I still have the Clancy Imislund tapes, the Chuck C tapes (can't say I thought toomuch of that guy even at the time and I never finished his book) and the latter's book " A New Pair Of Glasses " (which really should have been called " A new Pair Of Asses " . Considering my early leanings, my recovery from recovery is going well, I think. If Chuck C is the same as Chuck Chamberlain, which he probably is, I thought the guy was an idiot. He used to say, with great passion " 'Self thinking' is INSANITY " . Little did he knowm because he knew nothing of psychology, that anti-self thinking is inasanity. He was a religious fool who thought he knew something. Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 That's interesing , when you say that AA causes codependent behavior. I tend to agree. It's a good antidote and balancing program for the domineering individual, but if you start out as a codependent, the results are disastrous. Starting from a point of codependency myself, the most benefit I got from AA was when I did the opposite of what it told me. Charlotte Kasl writes that codependency is the traditional female socialization, and acting in this fashion will bring praise & approval from the culture and family, because the codependent is focusing on the other and not on the self which is great for the culture & family, but not for the codependent. Indeed, all of my woman relatives in the old country (Hungary) where I'm from were codependent. I remember as a child thinking they were so darn " nice " because they never thought of themselves first. Of course among my aunts & cousins we found the " martyrs " who had abusive partners, but the women would stay with them out of Duty. They'd deal with their feelings in church, by praying to God. It was seen as the noble thing to do. Go to church and pray on your knees, then go home to hear a drunken slob tell you that your ass is getting too big. Clancy sounds like a sick man. But hopefully, he's a sicko magnet, and the other sickos will be drawn to him, (and away from me). Now that I think about it, I always tended to pick sponsors who were Clancy-like. I figured that when in AA - work AA like it says in the book. I had one sponsor who kept telling me the following: Keep in mind that I had 4 years sober... If it feels right, it's wrong. All you know how to do is drink. Here I was, 30 years old, running my own graphics business, living in a beautiful house, practicing good nutrition and exercising on a daily basis, yet " all I know how to do is drink... " There's only one appropriate response to that. ^click^ (phone hits the cradle) > Hi Ben; > > My uncle used to say, " If you tipped the country on edge, all the > frruits and nuts would wind up in California. " I don't think he was > commenting on their agriculture. He lived in California most of his > adult life, said it was a great place for single people. > > The California AA's I've met think alcoholics are way up on the > moral ladder compared to drug addicts. They don't like to hear that > Alcohol is in fact a drug. > > At the same time they push the disease concept that says > basically alcohol and drug addiction are the same thing. Go figure. > > I wonder why the contradictions and circular reasoning plus > codependent behavior expected from a good AA never seem to > bother them, even when pointed out and painfully obvious. To try > something again and again exactly the same way and expect > different results is part of codependent behavior, yet I did it for > many years repeatedly relapsing and know quite a few folks who > are still at it. Rather like beat the dead horse harder this time and > he'll come to life. > > Maybe it's " Clancy I. Moon " , what? > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Oh, if anyone knows, please please please post it! Apple > There is a website that has a couple of Clancy's leads on it. You play > it on RealPlayer. I can't remember any more how I found out about it, > or what it's called. I went there once, but wasn't interested in > listening to an hour or more of AA stuff. > > Does anyone here know how to get there? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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