Guest guest Posted July 8, 1999 Report Share Posted July 8, 1999 Kim, I think you might really enjoy, " I'm disfuctional, you're Disfunctional. " It's a great look at the extremes of AA, feminism,etc, w/O implying that we should return to the " good Ol' days, " before the women's movement. Also, Pipher's book, " Reviving Opheilia. " It looks at women's issues from a cultural viewpoint. There needs to be a delciate balance between the extremes of the women's movement,and the realties of real problems women face in this society. In my XA homegroup, the women had their own table...the men I knew felt that they had nothing to learn form the women for the most part..The group had a steering committee which relctantly included an occasional woman, but only after much in fighting. Many men were furious that a woman be considered for the job of group chairman. And, believe me, the job was chairman. This was not unique to my homegroup. Thanks for the thought provoking posts! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 1999 Report Share Posted July 8, 1999 Kim, I think you might really enjoy, " I'm disfuctional, you're Disfunctional. " It's a great look at the extremes of AA, feminism,etc, w/O implying that we should return to the " good Ol' days, " before the women's movement. Also, Pipher's book, " Reviving Opheilia. " It looks at women's issues from a cultural viewpoint. There needs to be a delciate balance between the extremes of the women's movement,and the realties of real problems women face in this society. In my XA homegroup, the women had their own table...the men I knew felt that they had nothing to learn form the women for the most part..The group had a steering committee which relctantly included an occasional woman, but only after much in fighting. Many men were furious that a woman be considered for the job of group chairman. And, believe me, the job was chairman. This was not unique to my homegroup. Thanks for the thought provoking posts! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 1999 Report Share Posted July 8, 1999 Kim, I think you might really enjoy, " I'm disfuctional, you're Disfunctional. " It's a great look at the extremes of AA, feminism,etc, w/O implying that we should return to the " good Ol' days, " before the women's movement. Also, Pipher's book, " Reviving Opheilia. " It looks at women's issues from a cultural viewpoint. There needs to be a delciate balance between the extremes of the women's movement,and the realties of real problems women face in this society. In my XA homegroup, the women had their own table...the men I knew felt that they had nothing to learn form the women for the most part..The group had a steering committee which relctantly included an occasional woman, but only after much in fighting. Many men were furious that a woman be considered for the job of group chairman. And, believe me, the job was chairman. This was not unique to my homegroup. Thanks for the thought provoking posts! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 1999 Report Share Posted July 9, 1999 Hi Kim; I was under the impression feminist's didn't smoke, why carry a lighter? Only kidding. Lately I believe the womens movement once personified by Gloria Steinham has lost a lot of steam and quite a few of its' celebrity supporters. Thus, get more radical, yet they seem to support Bill Clinton and make excuses for him. Sounds similar to AA to me. There is one question in the Clinton thing that bothers me. Why did she not have that dress cleaned for two years? Somehow that doesn't ring true to me. Almost sounds like somebody knew he had a problem and set him up. What else could be done with that uncleaned dress? Hardly a thing one would keep as a momento I'd think. I can think of a lot of sick humor out of it, but not much else. It's just puzzling. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 1999 Report Share Posted July 9, 1999 Hi Kim; I was under the impression feminist's didn't smoke, why carry a lighter? Only kidding. Lately I believe the womens movement once personified by Gloria Steinham has lost a lot of steam and quite a few of its' celebrity supporters. Thus, get more radical, yet they seem to support Bill Clinton and make excuses for him. Sounds similar to AA to me. There is one question in the Clinton thing that bothers me. Why did she not have that dress cleaned for two years? Somehow that doesn't ring true to me. Almost sounds like somebody knew he had a problem and set him up. What else could be done with that uncleaned dress? Hardly a thing one would keep as a momento I'd think. I can think of a lot of sick humor out of it, but not much else. It's just puzzling. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 1999 Report Share Posted July 9, 1999 Hi gang, I' m leaving the list for now. I' not in the mood for political debates and such. Also, I feel that e-mail is not a good forum of expression for for me. In communication, I need eye contact and voice inflection for this kind of communication., unless I really know somebody. Also, I don't think I present myself in the best light. It has been fun, maybe I'll come back at another time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 1999 Report Share Posted July 9, 1999 Amen sister! Pete On Thu, 8 Jul 1999 15:55:11 -0700 (PDT) kim rh wrote: > > While in some ways feminism helped me to eventually leave NA(eg- a > " feminist 12 steps " I saw I liked better than AA's), I would say that > doing AA and feminism at the same time was a double whammy- the > " disease of addiction " and the " disease of patriarchy " both threatening > to take over my life at any minute. Aaargh! > > > It occurs to me now that my female doctor makes 250,000 a year, so she > has more power than the jerk who lives next door to me, that I could > say " ask me first next time you want to use my lighter " , and that a > lot of the men I see are smaller than me and I could take em! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 1999 Report Share Posted July 9, 1999 Tripp told her to keep it, knowing Bill's record of denial. After all, who would believe 's word against his? If she hadn't kept the dress, she couldn't prove that what she said was true. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5527 > Hi Kim; > > I was under the impression feminist's didn't smoke, why carry a > lighter? > > Only kidding. > > Lately I believe the womens movement once personified by Gloria > Steinham has lost a lot of steam and quite a few of its' celebrity > supporters. Thus, get more radical, yet they seem to support Bill > Clinton and make excuses for him. Sounds similar to AA to me. > > There is one question in the Clinton thing that bothers me. Why > did she not have that dress cleaned for two years? Somehow that > doesn't ring true to me. Almost sounds like somebody knew he > had a problem and set him up. What else could be done with that > uncleaned dress? Hardly a thing one would keep as a momento I'd > think. I can think of a lot of sick humor out of it, but not much else. > It's just puzzling. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 1999 Report Share Posted July 10, 1999 Hi Kayleigh; Tripp, possibly the most hated woman in America. That answers a lot. I never paid a lot of attention at the time I did remember the dress thing. I didn't read all the junk the house put on the net and neither did Rose so don't know the gory details. She's made a bunch, or will. Tripp may end up not getting her share of the pie. She may have created herself a Monika Monster.8-) Of course it is possible the prosecuter, a hmm Star that's it. He may string Monika out long enough that she won't see near what she would have if her stuff was timely. Actually Star can keep her from ever seeing a dime if he wants. All he has to do is certify that he believes she did not fully cooperate and may have been part of the conspiracy to obstruct jusice and she gets zip. I don't believe he need support his assertions withy any evidence, just certify his belief. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 1999 Report Share Posted July 10, 1999 Hi, , There's a lot Tripp did that I wouldn't have done, but I think her advice regarding the dress was good. After all, Clinton's PR machinery was well on the way to branding as a slut and liar before the whole situation came to a head. If not for the dress, he may never have 'fessed up, and while 's future doesn't look bright, at least people know she was telling the truth. I also don't blame Tripp for making the tapes. It's legal in lots of places, for example where I live, and she evidently felt a strong need to protect herself. What I blame her for is how she used the knowledge she gained from the conversations themselves, using the tapes to back it up. How nice it would have been for Kathleen Willey or Steele Hiatt if one of them had taped their conversations. At least a court of law would know which one of them is lying. It is sad that the Clintons created an atmosphere such that people feel they have to document their dealings with them and with one another in order not to be called liars and get caught up in ruinous situations. Think of the corpses that lie strewn upon the path the Clintons have trodden. Actually, personal diaries would serve the same purpose, but they are time-consuming and are subject to the charge they've been fabricated. Since we've got the technology, why not use it? Does anyone else on this list see a reason anyone but law enforcement should have to get permission from a court or a consent from the other participants before obtaining tapes of people they talk to? I think it may be the most unfair in employment situations where the only way to prove discrimination is to have a record of what the boss said. You may say that the ban on taping prevents blackmail. I myself do not own a firearm and probably never will, but I see the logic in saying that if guns are illegal, only crooks will have guns. And if tapes are illegal, only the crooks will have tapes, which have a far more limited potential for harm than guns do. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5616 > Hi Kayleigh; > > Tripp, possibly the most hated woman in America. > > That answers a lot. I never paid a lot of attention at the time I did > remember the dress thing. I didn't read all the junk the house put > on the net and neither did Rose so don't know the gory details. > She's made a bunch, or will. Tripp may end up not getting her > share of the pie. She may have created herself a Monika > Monster.8-) Of course it is possible the prosecuter, a hmm Star > that's it. He may string Monika out long enough that she won't see > near what she would have if her stuff was timely. Actually Star can > keep her from ever seeing a dime if he wants. All he has to do is > certify that he believes she did not fully cooperate and may have > been part of the conspiracy to obstruct jusice and she gets zip. I > don't believe he need support his assertions withy any evidence, > just certify his belief. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 1999 Report Share Posted July 10, 1999 Hi, , There's a lot Tripp did that I wouldn't have done, but I think her advice regarding the dress was good. After all, Clinton's PR machinery was well on the way to branding as a slut and liar before the whole situation came to a head. If not for the dress, he may never have 'fessed up, and while 's future doesn't look bright, at least people know she was telling the truth. I also don't blame Tripp for making the tapes. It's legal in lots of places, for example where I live, and she evidently felt a strong need to protect herself. What I blame her for is how she used the knowledge she gained from the conversations themselves, using the tapes to back it up. How nice it would have been for Kathleen Willey or Steele Hiatt if one of them had taped their conversations. At least a court of law would know which one of them is lying. It is sad that the Clintons created an atmosphere such that people feel they have to document their dealings with them and with one another in order not to be called liars and get caught up in ruinous situations. Think of the corpses that lie strewn upon the path the Clintons have trodden. Actually, personal diaries would serve the same purpose, but they are time-consuming and are subject to the charge they've been fabricated. Since we've got the technology, why not use it? Does anyone else on this list see a reason anyone but law enforcement should have to get permission from a court or a consent from the other participants before obtaining tapes of people they talk to? I think it may be the most unfair in employment situations where the only way to prove discrimination is to have a record of what the boss said. You may say that the ban on taping prevents blackmail. I myself do not own a firearm and probably never will, but I see the logic in saying that if guns are illegal, only crooks will have guns. And if tapes are illegal, only the crooks will have tapes, which have a far more limited potential for harm than guns do. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5616 > Hi Kayleigh; > > Tripp, possibly the most hated woman in America. > > That answers a lot. I never paid a lot of attention at the time I did > remember the dress thing. I didn't read all the junk the house put > on the net and neither did Rose so don't know the gory details. > She's made a bunch, or will. Tripp may end up not getting her > share of the pie. She may have created herself a Monika > Monster.8-) Of course it is possible the prosecuter, a hmm Star > that's it. He may string Monika out long enough that she won't see > near what she would have if her stuff was timely. Actually Star can > keep her from ever seeing a dime if he wants. All he has to do is > certify that he believes she did not fully cooperate and may have > been part of the conspiracy to obstruct jusice and she gets zip. I > don't believe he need support his assertions withy any evidence, > just certify his belief. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 1999 Report Share Posted July 10, 1999 Hi Kayleigh; Don't know how many kids will have to die from legal guns before they're banned. Our cowbow carrying his " Peacemaker " image will keep our children dying until congress says no more and starts taking them by force. The only way a gun gets in my house is strapped on a cop or a soldier. If a crook has a gun, I give in. A gun won't keep you safe, just dead, unless, you are willing to take training and willing to kill quickly without regard to who it might be. Three weeks ago a mans daughter played a trick on her father attracting his attention with a little noise then hiding in the closet, he shot her to death when she said BOO. Sure kept him safe! I don't imagine you'll see him on TV with Charlton Heston. How bout the grandpa who's guns were used in Arkansas, or the parents in Littleton Colo. Scary stuff. If the guns are turned in, the price of illegal guns will be out of the reach of kids Instead of a couple thousand for an illegal Mac10 it will be 50k for one or more and will have to be stolen from the military. Life for posession of a stolen military weapon would slow especially the pros. They'd still get guns agreed, but 13 year olds wouldn't have them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 1999 Report Share Posted July 10, 1999 , I am not advocating gun ownership and I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I was. It is kind of scary though to imagine a world in which only the cops and the crooks are armed. I'm not real sure where I stand on the arms issue. I haven't thought it through and I can think of arguments on both sides. I do know, though, that where I grew up hunting was big, and most kids who wanted to had access to guns, but didn't use them to blast their high schools. So I have to think there are a few more variables at work here, and I don't know what they are. If I did, maybe I could solve the problem and the government would give me a grant of millions. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5642 > Hi Kayleigh; > > Don't know how many kids will have to die from legal guns before > they're banned. Our cowbow carrying his " Peacemaker " image will > keep our children dying until congress says no more and starts > taking them by force. > > The only way a gun gets in my house is strapped on a cop or a > soldier. If a crook has a gun, I give in. > > A gun won't keep you safe, just dead, unless, you are willing to > take training and willing to kill quickly without regard to who it > might be. Three weeks ago a mans daughter played a trick on her > father attracting his attention with a little noise then hiding in the > closet, he shot her to death when she said BOO. Sure kept him > safe! I don't imagine you'll see him on TV with Charlton Heston. > How bout the grandpa who's guns were used in Arkansas, or the > parents in Littleton Colo. Scary stuff. If the guns are turned in, the > price of illegal guns will be out of the reach of kids Instead of a > couple thousand for an illegal Mac10 it will be 50k for one or more > and will have to be stolen from the military. Life for posession of a > stolen military weapon would slow especially the pros. They'd still > get guns agreed, but 13 year olds wouldn't have them. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 1999 Report Share Posted July 12, 1999 Hi Kayleigh; Guns are only a complex issue in this country I think. I agree there are arguments on both sides and I don't advocate the surrender of real hunting weapons. My problem is does a deer hunter need a laser sighted fully automatic assault rifle, ala AK-47 or an assault pistol like a mac 10, pac 9 or Uzi. These latter only good at 25 yards or so, but fire so many rounds so quickly they are really good only at killing people. I know many Iowa farmer's who have AK's and Uzi's, but for what? They're totally illegal here, yet are plentifull if you have the cash. Keeping an unloaded gun is no good. Has to be loaded to afford protection and be in a position of easy access. That creates problems if there are children around. Here in Iowa we have less than a dozen accidental shootings a year. Many more are intentional, drive bye and just outright murder. The automatic weapons in kids possession here are stolen from those farmhouses and the guy cannot report the theft because the gun is illegal to possess. Just getting a handle on the fully automatic weapons would be a start. Hunting weapons for Deer in Iowa are allowed three rounds, one in the chamber with a clip of two more. No rifles larger than 22 caliber are allowed for hunting. Deer are taken with a shotgun with slugs or Bow and Arrow. However, one fact remains. A kid without a gun can't shoot anyone. A knife is up close and personal. People who kill with guns sometimes don't even relate the pulling of the trigger and the death. It's impersonal. " I just heard this bang and he fell down " is a story police hear a lot, not " I shot him " I feel our attitude toward guns(I'm speaking mostly of men here) is not a healthy one. We see the cowboy who deals justice from the barrell of a gun as a hero, but is he really? Wyatt Earp mostly shot folks in the back with a shotgun. He was little and sneaky, not the big six gun toting guy of legend. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this part, but I recall him being five feet ttwo, not the six two we're used to seeing in actors. Bat Masterson, spent most of his life as a sports writer in NY. When Wild Bill was backshot in Deadwood, he commanded so little respect, the jury acquitted the shooter. Later a federal court convicted him and hanged him, but the jury on the spot cut him loose. Deadwood was an illegal town on an indian reservation so the feds declared the trial invalid and retried the guy. Can't recall his name. Wild Bill was popular in the east was why the guy got hanged. We do love our gun legends, but most of them are mythical and bear no resemblance to the truly viscous nature of these folks. All of our western heroes, save a very few like Masterson, would be in prison doing life in todays world and most folks would say Good Riddance as a result. The gunfight we have all seen began in hollywood in 1928, not in the old west. A real old west sheriff would simply ambush the bad guys, not fight them. For obvious reason, the folks were killers, why give them a chance? I like to watch " The Equalizer " but in my heart I'm happy he is fictional. He's our modern day cowboy. The sophisticated Vigilante. I like the two episodes where he cracked up after killing three guys. They were guilty as sin, but so was he. Provides a little balance. I've never killed a man, but came close. I never want that feeling again. I have no idea how cops live with it. I didn't have a gun, lucky for me and him both. That feeling of recognition of what I'd done was far worse than the prison time I got. No amends were possible since the man won't risk talking to me. Who can blame him? At the time, 1981, my parole agent said " leave it be and live with it. " Sometimes that's all we can do. I can't imagine now that knowing my regret would help him any. It was thoughtless of me in the extreme to try to approach him at all. As those school boys get older, those deaths will haunt them. Trust me, it doesn't get a lot better, just dims a little with time. It has been 22 years this August and I can still remember it in slow motion. I've talked to others and it's the same with them. I think it is with anyone, except perhaps a true sociopath. My best pal killed a man who had kicked the door in and was beating on his wife, he was prosecuted for first degree murder and was convicted of manslaughter. The guy was his wife's first husband who had done a bunch of stuff to them, all reported to the police. The prosecutor's theory of the case was they lured the man there and killed him. The State used the complaints to the police and their inability to stop the guy as evidence against my pal. We lost his case all the way to the US Supreme court and back through post conviction. Actually poor medical treatment killed the guy and the surgeon admitted it. He walked away with two bullets in him and was in the hospital. The surgeon decided to remove them in the morning thinking they were stable. During the night one shifted and killed the guy. Course had he not been shot there would have been no need. To this day my pal wishes he'd never bought the gun. I did finally manage to help him get out via a blitz on the parole board after I got out. To add insult to injury, he lost the wife he saved to AA and divorced her after two years. He said that for months at a time she'd leave for the club before the kids were off to school and come home at 11 at night or so, sleep and repeat it. Whenever he'd challenge her she'd accuse him of wanting her drunk so he could boss her around. She made a bid for the kids but the Judge didn't buy The AA party line from her witnesses and told her that the unfit father claim reflected more on her than him. The court was a woman and she asked the obvious question, why did you leave the children in the hands of an unfit caregiver for weeks at a time? She awarded custody to my pal, with limited visitation to her, IF she began paying child support. She never did and didn't request visitation again. He said he ran into her on the street once, but she had her head down, books in arm, walking fast and he couldn't get her attention. The Girls are both married off now with families of their own. My pal didn't remarry till they were gone. Rose took to both he and his wife. His new family is a trip and that's a fact, they have two of their's and two of hers by a former marriage. I asked him if he was getting a bit long in the tooth at 50, to have a five year old around? He swears it keeps him young and who am I to doubt? He and I both have happy endings to brutal beginnings, he also was physically abused as a kid. We were both fortunate in that knowing nothing about it, we didn't pass it to the next generation, many do. Well my usual book and off topic at that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 1999 Report Share Posted July 12, 1999 Hi , A good read. Glad to see another guy displeased with firearm legislation. As you say there is a lot of pressure brought to bear by historic legend, the film industry, and a handful of Hollywood icons. How are you supposed to compete with Moses(Charleton Heston) and the venerated American Cowboy depicted by the likes of Wayne, Gene Autry, and Roy .? They end up making guns out to be as American as apple pie, and that to deny them to the citizenry would be tantamount to canceling Major League Baseball. D Hall wrote: > > Hi Kayleigh; > > Guns are only a complex issue in this country I think. > > I agree there are arguments on both sides and I don't advocate the > surrender of real hunting weapons. My problem is does a deer > hunter need a laser sighted fully automatic assault rifle, ala AK-47 > or an assault pistol like a mac 10, pac 9 or Uzi. These latter only > good at 25 yards or so, but fire so many rounds so quickly they are > really good only at killing people. I know many Iowa farmer's who > have AK's and Uzi's, but for what? They're totally illegal here, yet > are plentifull if you have the cash. > > Keeping an unloaded gun is no good. Has to be loaded to afford > protection and be in a position of easy access. That creates > problems if there are children around. Here in Iowa we have less > than a dozen accidental shootings a year. Many more are > intentional, drive bye and just outright murder. The automatic > weapons in kids possession here are stolen from those > farmhouses and the guy cannot report the theft because the gun is > illegal to possess. > > Just getting a handle on the fully automatic weapons would be a > start. Hunting weapons for Deer in Iowa are allowed three rounds, > one in the chamber with a clip of two more. No rifles larger than 22 > caliber are allowed for hunting. Deer are taken with a shotgun with > slugs or Bow and Arrow. > > However, one fact remains. A kid without a gun can't shoot > anyone. A knife is up close and personal. People who kill with > guns sometimes don't even relate the pulling of the trigger and the > death. It's impersonal. " I just heard this bang and he fell down " is > a story police hear a lot, not " I shot him " > > I feel our attitude toward guns(I'm speaking mostly of men here) is > not a healthy one. We see the cowboy who deals justice from the > barrell of a gun as a hero, but is he really? Wyatt Earp mostly > shot folks in the back with a shotgun. He was little and sneaky, > not the big six gun toting guy of legend. Someone can correct me > if I'm wrong on this part, but I recall him being five feet ttwo, not the > six two we're used to seeing in actors. Bat Masterson, spent most > of his life as a sports writer in NY. When Wild Bill was backshot in > Deadwood, he commanded so little respect, the jury acquitted the > shooter. Later a federal court convicted him and hanged him, but > the jury on the spot cut him loose. Deadwood was an illegal town > on an indian reservation so the feds declared the trial invalid and > retried the guy. Can't recall his name. Wild Bill was popular in the > east was why the guy got hanged. > > We do love our gun legends, but most of them are mythical and > bear no resemblance to the truly viscous nature of these folks. All > of our western heroes, save a very few like Masterson, would be in > prison doing life in todays world and most folks would say Good > Riddance as a result. The gunfight we have all seen began in > hollywood in 1928, not in the old west. A real old west sheriff > would simply ambush the bad guys, not fight them. For obvious > reason, the folks were killers, why give them a chance? > > I like to watch " The Equalizer " but in my heart I'm happy he is > fictional. He's our modern day cowboy. The sophisticated > Vigilante. I like the two episodes where he cracked up after killing > three guys. They were guilty as sin, but so was he. Provides a > little balance. > > I've never killed a man, but came close. I never want that feeling > again. I have no idea how cops live with it. I didn't have a gun, > lucky for me and him both. That feeling of recognition of what I'd > done was far worse than the prison time I got. No amends were > possible since the man won't risk talking to me. Who can blame > him? At the time, 1981, my parole agent said " leave it be and live > with it. " Sometimes that's all we can do. I can't imagine now that > knowing my regret would help him any. It was thoughtless of me in > the extreme to try to approach him at all. > > As those school boys get older, those deaths will haunt them. > Trust me, it doesn't get a lot better, just dims a little with time. It > has been 22 years this August and I can still remember it in slow > motion. I've talked to others and it's the same with them. I think it > is with anyone, except perhaps a true sociopath. > > My best pal killed a man who had kicked the door in and was > beating on his wife, he was prosecuted for first degree murder and > was convicted of manslaughter. The guy was his wife's first > husband who had done a bunch of stuff to them, all reported to the > police. The prosecutor's theory of the case was they lured the man > there and killed him. The State used the complaints to the police > and their inability to stop the guy as evidence against my pal. We > lost his case all the way to the US Supreme court and back > through post conviction. Actually poor medical treatment killed the > guy and the surgeon admitted it. He walked away with two bullets > in him and was in the hospital. The surgeon decided to remove > them in the morning thinking they were stable. During the night > one shifted and killed the guy. Course had he not been shot there > would have been no need. To this day my pal wishes he'd never > bought the gun. I did finally manage to help him get out via a blitz > on the parole board after I got out. > > To add insult to injury, he lost the wife he saved to AA and divorced > her after two years. He said that for months at a time she'd leave > for the club before the kids were off to school and come home at 11 > at night or so, sleep and repeat it. Whenever he'd challenge her > she'd accuse him of wanting her drunk so he could boss her > around. She made a bid for the kids but the Judge didn't buy The > AA party line from her witnesses and told her that the unfit father > claim reflected more on her than him. The court was a woman and > she asked the obvious question, why did you leave the children in > the hands of an unfit caregiver for weeks at a time? She awarded > custody to my pal, with limited visitation to her, IF she began > paying child support. She never did and didn't request visitation > again. He said he ran into her on the street once, but she had her > head down, books in arm, walking fast and he couldn't get her > attention. The Girls are both married off now with families of their > own. My pal didn't remarry till they were gone. Rose took to both > he and his wife. His new family is a trip and that's a fact, they have > two of their's and two of hers by a former marriage. I asked him if > he was getting a bit long in the tooth at 50, to have a five year old > around? He swears it keeps him young and who am I to doubt? > > He and I both have happy endings to brutal beginnings, he also > was physically abused as a kid. We were both fortunate in that > knowing nothing about it, we didn't pass it to the next generation, > many do. > > Well my usual book and off topic at that. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Be as loud as you want > Get free email and 20MB of webspace at FortuneCity.com > http://clickhere./click/367 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 1999 Report Share Posted July 12, 1999 Hi I suddenly understand why Mel is more popular in Europe than in US. Have you ever seen Gene Wilder in " Blazing Saddles " ? The movie ought to be educational stuff. Anyway my favorite american western. Bjørn Hollister wrote: > > Hi , A good read. Glad to see another guy displeased with firearm legislation. As you say there is a lot of pressure brought to bear by historic legend, the film industry, and a handful of Hollywood icons. How are you supposed to compete with Moses(Charleton Heston) and the venerated American Cowboy depicted by the likes of Wayne, Gene Autry, and Roy .? They end up making guns out to be as American as apple pie, and that to deny them to the citizenry would be tantamount to canceling Major League Baseball. D Hall wrote: > > Hi Kayleigh; > > Guns are only a complex issue in this country I think. > > I agree there are arguments on both sides and I don't advocate the > surrender of real hunting weapons. My problem is does a deer > hunter need a laser sighted fully automatic assault rifle, ala AK-47 > or an assault pistol like a mac 10, pac 9 or Uzi. These latter only > good at 25 yards or so, but fire so many rounds so quickly they are > really good only at killing people. I know many Iowa farmer's who > have AK's and Uzi's, but for what? They're totally illegal here, yet > are plentifull if you have the cash. > > Keeping an unloaded gun is no good. Has to be loaded to afford > protection and be in a position of easy access. That creates > problems if there are children around. Here in Iowa we have less > than a dozen accidental shootings a year. Many more are > intentional, drive bye and just outright murder. The automatic > weapons in kids possession here are stolen from those > farmhouses and the guy cannot report the theft because the gun is > illegal to possess. > > Just getting a handle on the fully automatic weapons would be a > start. Hunting weapons for Deer in Iowa are allowed three rounds, > one in the chamber with a clip of two more. No rifles larger than 22 > caliber are allowed for hunting. Deer are taken with a shotgun with > slugs or Bow and Arrow. > > However, one fact remains. A kid without a gun can't shoot > anyone. A knife is up close and personal. People who kill with > guns sometimes don't even relate the pulling of the trigger and the > death. It's impersonal. " I just heard this bang and he fell down " is > a story police hear a lot, not " I shot him " > > I feel our attitude toward guns(I'm speaking mostly of men here) is > not a healthy one. We see the cowboy who deals justice from the > barrell of a gun as a hero, but is he really? Wyatt Earp mostly > shot folks in the back with a shotgun. He was little and sneaky, > not the big six gun toting guy of legend. Someone can correct me > if I'm wrong on this part, but I recall him being five feet ttwo, not the > six two we're used to seeing in actors. Bat Masterson, spent most > of his life as a sports writer in NY. When Wild Bill was backshot in > Deadwood, he commanded so little respect, the jury acquitted the > shooter. Later a federal court convicted him and hanged him, but > the jury on the spot cut him loose. Deadwood was an illegal town > on an indian reservation so the feds declared the trial invalid and > retried the guy. Can't recall his name. Wild Bill was popular in the > east was why the guy got hanged. > > We do love our gun legends, but most of them are mythical and > bear no resemblance to the truly viscous nature of these folks. All > of our western heroes, save a very few like Masterson, would be in > prison doing life in todays world and most folks would say Good > Riddance as a result. The gunfight we have all seen began in > hollywood in 1928, not in the old west. A real old west sheriff > would simply ambush the bad guys, not fight them. For obvious > reason, the folks were killers, why give them a chance? > > I like to watch " The Equalizer " but in my heart I'm happy he is > fictional. He's our modern day cowboy. The sophisticated > Vigilante. I like the two episodes where he cracked up after killing > three guys. They were guilty as sin, but so was he. Provides a > little balance. > > I've never killed a man, but came close. I never want that feeling > again. I have no idea how cops live with it. I didn't have a gun, > lucky for me and him both. That feeling of recognition of what I'd > done was far worse than the prison time I got. No amends were > possible since the man won't risk talking to me. Who can blame > him? At the time, 1981, my parole agent said " leave it be and live > with it. " Sometimes that's all we can do. I can't imagine now that > knowing my regret would help him any. It was thoughtless of me in > the extreme to try to approach him at all. > > As those school boys get older, those deaths will haunt them. > Trust me, it doesn't get a lot better, just dims a little with time. It > has been 22 years this August and I can still remember it in slow > motion. I've talked to others and it's the same with them. I think it > is with anyone, except perhaps a true sociopath. > > My best pal killed a man who had kicked the door in and was > beating on his wife, he was prosecuted for first degree murder and > was convicted of manslaughter. The guy was his wife's first > husband who had done a bunch of stuff to them, all reported to the > police. The prosecutor's theory of the case was they lured the man > there and killed him. The State used the complaints to the police > and their inability to stop the guy as evidence against my pal. We > lost his case all the way to the US Supreme court and back > through post conviction. Actually poor medical treatment killed the > guy and the surgeon admitted it. He walked away with two bullets > in him and was in the hospital. The surgeon decided to remove > them in the morning thinking they were stable. During the night > one shifted and killed the guy. Course had he not been shot there > would have been no need. To this day my pal wishes he'd never > bought the gun. I did finally manage to help him get out via a blitz > on the parole board after I got out. > > To add insult to injury, he lost the wife he saved to AA and divorced > her after two years. He said that for months at a time she'd leave > for the club before the kids were off to school and come home at 11 > at night or so, sleep and repeat it. Whenever he'd challenge her > she'd accuse him of wanting her drunk so he could boss her > around. She made a bid for the kids but the Judge didn't buy The > AA party line from her witnesses and told her that the unfit father > claim reflected more on her than him. The court was a woman and > she asked the obvious question, why did you leave the children in > the hands of an unfit caregiver for weeks at a time? She awarded > custody to my pal, with limited visitation to her, IF she began > paying child support. She never did and didn't request visitation > again. He said he ran into her on the street once, but she had her > head down, books in arm, walking fast and he couldn't get her > attention. The Girls are both married off now with families of their > own. My pal didn't remarry till they were gone. Rose took to both > he and his wife. His new family is a trip and that's a fact, they have > two of their's and two of hers by a former marriage. I asked him if > he was getting a bit long in the tooth at 50, to have a five year old > around? He swears it keeps him young and who am I to doubt? > > He and I both have happy endings to brutal beginnings, he also > was physically abused as a kid. We were both fortunate in that > knowing nothing about it, we didn't pass it to the next generation, > many do. > > Well my usual book and off topic at that. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Be as loud as you want > Get free email and 20MB of webspace at FortuneCity.com > http://clickhere./click/367 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [Click here for a Gateway computer deal!] > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 1999 Report Share Posted July 12, 1999 Hi, , I don't think guns are a complex issue only in this country, if I read you right, but I do think Americans are as ambivalent about guns as they are about alcohol, and hence the real polarization of views about both. I think the crux of the problem is as you say, Americans idealize the gunslinger, not realizing what nasty crooks their heroes are. IMO Wyatt Earp didn't wear a white hat either. (Nor his sidekicks.) What's fascinating to me is thinking about how hard it must have been to keep order in the West when it was being settled, how people wanted for crimes probably migrated to the West to escape capture and how the job of U.S. Marshal probably attracted as many criminals as it did decent men. How hard it must have been to ride circuit in the West, as opposed to riding circuit from Boston to Salem. The history of law has always fascinated me. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5708 > Hi Kayleigh; > > Guns are only a complex issue in this country I think. > > I agree there are arguments on both sides and I don't advocate the > surrender of real hunting weapons. My problem is does a deer > hunter need a laser sighted fully automatic assault rifle, ala AK-47 > or an assault pistol like a mac 10, pac 9 or Uzi. These latter only > good at 25 yards or so, but fire so many rounds so quickly they are > really good only at killing people. I know many Iowa farmer's who > have AK's and Uzi's, but for what? They're totally illegal here, yet > are plentifull if you have the cash. > > Keeping an unloaded gun is no good. Has to be loaded to afford > protection and be in a position of easy access. That creates > problems if there are children around. Here in Iowa we have less > than a dozen accidental shootings a year. Many more are > intentional, drive bye and just outright murder. The automatic > weapons in kids possession here are stolen from those > farmhouses and the guy cannot report the theft because the gun is > illegal to possess. > > Just getting a handle on the fully automatic weapons would be a > start. Hunting weapons for Deer in Iowa are allowed three rounds, > one in the chamber with a clip of two more. No rifles larger than 22 > caliber are allowed for hunting. Deer are taken with a shotgun with > slugs or Bow and Arrow. > > However, one fact remains. A kid without a gun can't shoot > anyone. A knife is up close and personal. People who kill with > guns sometimes don't even relate the pulling of the trigger and the > death. It's impersonal. " I just heard this bang and he fell down " is > a story police hear a lot, not " I shot him " > > I feel our attitude toward guns(I'm speaking mostly of men here) is > not a healthy one. We see the cowboy who deals justice from the > barrell of a gun as a hero, but is he really? Wyatt Earp mostly > shot folks in the back with a shotgun. He was little and sneaky, > not the big six gun toting guy of legend. Someone can correct me > if I'm wrong on this part, but I recall him being five feet ttwo, not the > six two we're used to seeing in actors. Bat Masterson, spent most > of his life as a sports writer in NY. When Wild Bill was backshot in > Deadwood, he commanded so little respect, the jury acquitted the > shooter. Later a federal court convicted him and hanged him, but > the jury on the spot cut him loose. Deadwood was an illegal town > on an indian reservation so the feds declared the trial invalid and > retried the guy. Can't recall his name. Wild Bill was popular in the > east was why the guy got hanged. > > We do love our gun legends, but most of them are mythical and > bear no resemblance to the truly viscous nature of these folks. All > of our western heroes, save a very few like Masterson, would be in > prison doing life in todays world and most folks would say Good > Riddance as a result. The gunfight we have all seen began in > hollywood in 1928, not in the old west. A real old west sheriff > would simply ambush the bad guys, not fight them. For obvious > reason, the folks were killers, why give them a chance? > > I like to watch " The Equalizer " but in my heart I'm happy he is > fictional. He's our modern day cowboy. The sophisticated > Vigilante. I like the two episodes where he cracked up after killing > three guys. They were guilty as sin, but so was he. Provides a > little balance. > > I've never killed a man, but came close. I never want that feeling > again. I have no idea how cops live with it. I didn't have a gun, > lucky for me and him both. That feeling of recognition of what I'd > done was far worse than the prison time I got. No amends were > possible since the man won't risk talking to me. Who can blame > him? At the time, 1981, my parole agent said " leave it be and live > with it. " Sometimes that's all we can do. I can't imagine now that > knowing my regret would help him any. It was thoughtless of me in > the extreme to try to approach him at all. > > As those school boys get older, those deaths will haunt them. > Trust me, it doesn't get a lot better, just dims a little with time. It > has been 22 years this August and I can still remember it in slow > motion. I've talked to others and it's the same with them. I think it > is with anyone, except perhaps a true sociopath. > > My best pal killed a man who had kicked the door in and was > beating on his wife, he was prosecuted for first degree murder and > was convicted of manslaughter. The guy was his wife's first > husband who had done a bunch of stuff to them, all reported to the > police. The prosecutor's theory of the case was they lured the man > there and killed him. The State used the complaints to the police > and their inability to stop the guy as evidence against my pal. We > lost his case all the way to the US Supreme court and back > through post conviction. Actually poor medical treatment killed the > guy and the surgeon admitted it. He walked away with two bullets > in him and was in the hospital. The surgeon decided to remove > them in the morning thinking they were stable. During the night > one shifted and killed the guy. Course had he not been shot there > would have been no need. To this day my pal wishes he'd never > bought the gun. I did finally manage to help him get out via a blitz > on the parole board after I got out. > > To add insult to injury, he lost the wife he saved to AA and divorced > her after two years. He said that for months at a time she'd leave > for the club before the kids were off to school and come home at 11 > at night or so, sleep and repeat it. Whenever he'd challenge her > she'd accuse him of wanting her drunk so he could boss her > around. She made a bid for the kids but the Judge didn't buy The > AA party line from her witnesses and told her that the unfit father > claim reflected more on her than him. The court was a woman and > she asked the obvious question, why did you leave the children in > the hands of an unfit caregiver for weeks at a time? She awarded > custody to my pal, with limited visitation to her, IF she began > paying child support. She never did and didn't request visitation > again. He said he ran into her on the street once, but she had her > head down, books in arm, walking fast and he couldn't get her > attention. The Girls are both married off now with families of their > own. My pal didn't remarry till they were gone. Rose took to both > he and his wife. His new family is a trip and that's a fact, they have > two of their's and two of hers by a former marriage. I asked him if > he was getting a bit long in the tooth at 50, to have a five year old > around? He swears it keeps him young and who am I to doubt? > > He and I both have happy endings to brutal beginnings, he also > was physically abused as a kid. We were both fortunate in that > knowing nothing about it, we didn't pass it to the next generation, > many do. > > Well my usual book and off topic at that. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 1999 Report Share Posted July 12, 1999 Hi ; What's wrong with cancelling Major League Baseball, never know if they're going to play or strike anyway 8-) When the had the second strike, I tuned out, don't even know who the players are anymore. I was working on a TV and watched the last 5 innings of a 12 inning cubs game this year. I watched the europe NFL instead. But the guns. I don't like the argument that's persuasive, that is a kid with no gun can't shoot anyone, it sounds good, but isn't totally possible anytime soon. Between legal and illegal guns, FBI estimates 750 million guns in the USA. 3 for every human in the US. How in the world could they be controlled except a ban and with the money the NRA has to spread around in congress, that's a non starter. What we need is a reinterpretation of the 2nd amendment. It doesn't speak of personal guns, it speaks of a well armed Militia. There is an implication of personal arms. Pardon, well regulated militia. Also read the other way, regulation of firearms in the militia is equally implied. The kid and gun argument is similar to the death penalty argument. Enough studies have been done to know that death later is not a deterrent to murder now. Some studies even indicate the opposite is true. That in the area where an execution is to take place, two weeks before and a month after, the murder rate rises. We can only guess why it does. Had to do a lot of research on this in community college Criminology a few years back The only real argument left for death penalty advocacy is that the man we execute will not kill again. But like the kid and gun the argument is flawed. Do to the increased murder rate due to his execution, he does kill again. Lowest murder rate percapita in the world only counting industrialized nations, New Zealand. I believe the whole country had four in 1991, for the YEAR. No DP. Sociologists have beaten their brains out trying to learn why. Bar fights and the usual crap go on, but not murder, not like we're used to. Maybe panpipes can tell us the population of New Zealand, I can't recall. Both guns and death penalty are far more complex than the panaceas the polititians throw at us. I'm for law and order, take em behind the jail and shoot em, save the cost of a trial and all them appeals. Until it's your son accused, then its all different. Then it's where the hell is Mason's phone number? Had an AA woman tell me(Doing her dissertation in psychology) that I shouldn't get involved in these controversies, learn to live and let live. Quit trying to control the world, you'll be a lot happier if you just stick to your own stuff. " Gee, I'd never thought of that before. What I really told her was " I don't plan on controlling the US government or The Great State of Iowa, but I vote every chance I get. " For some reason AA folks don't get it. If I believe strongly, either way about something, then it is " My Stuff " What if, by a stretch, I impress one rep and he votes against the DP, I done something for my state. It can happen by a stretch. If I'm closeted in a room not seeing the guns killing kids, until they're mine, or innocent people possibly being executed, then it cannot happen, by any stretch. No rep is going to knock on my door for my opinion, I have to take it to him. To abdicate my responsibilities as a citizen, can make me happy? I'd be living in a fools paradise. I'd be like the proverbial bug, who is snug in a rug, until the world, in this case a vacuum cleaner, intrudes. If AA's can't stand controversy, they certainly must give up polotics, religion and marriage, Trust me, you'll have controversy in any of those. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 1999 Report Share Posted July 12, 1999 Hi , The population of New Zealand is 3.6 Million with a low population density. Check out one of my local AA buddie's responses to my Clancy Newsflash parody, below. Guess I was playing to the wrong audience. He even hates Clancy and I doubt he even bothered to read it. I think he thought I just pulled it off of Apple's Website and emailed it to him like I did with the picture of the brainwashed AA guy. I admit I've been in his face with this stuff, but he's a real bro and in the past he'd always been a real free thinker and maverick. As you can see from his reply below, he is pretty far gone and I will just have to avoid broaching the subject with him again. I really miss my friend because between his New Age Angel Goddess Girlfriend and his nasty case of AA brainwashing I'm finding little of him still here on Earth to communicate with. It's a shame. He's a great guy. If anyone wants to see the sentence by sentence debunking letter I wrote back, but am not sending, let me know and I'll post it. Dude, Certainly, you must have more important things to do than fill your life and mine with this endless, unsolicited, AA debunking Bullshit! I mean, do you really believe this crap? I get the feeling that whoever is writing or creating this malarkey is certainly wielding a belt buckle large enough to serve an entire side of beef on! As your bro, I support you in whatever you want to believe in. However - The fact still remains: AA is still keeping you sober. ( even if it is out of sheer defiance of its' steps, program, meetings, god, fellowship, or whatever). This leads me to the realization of how grateful I am to have met you (in AA) and watch you grow. I realize that because I have good friends like you, I am shown time and time again, that the program is perfect, and works for everyone! Even You! Love Always, The Guy D Hall wrote: > > Hi ; > > What's wrong with cancelling Major League Baseball, never know if > they're going to play or strike anyway 8-) When the had the > second strike, I tuned out, don't even know who the players are > anymore. I was working on a TV and watched the last 5 innings of > a 12 inning cubs game this year. I watched the europe NFL > instead. > > But the guns. I don't like the argument that's persuasive, that is a > kid with no gun can't shoot anyone, it sounds good, but isn't totally > possible anytime soon. Between legal and illegal guns, FBI > estimates 750 million guns in the USA. 3 for every human in the > US. How in the world could they be controlled except a ban and > with the money the NRA has to spread around in congress, that's a > non starter. What we need is a reinterpretation of the 2nd > amendment. It doesn't speak of personal guns, it speaks of a well > armed Militia. There is an implication of personal arms. Pardon, > well regulated militia. Also read the other way, regulation of > firearms in the militia is equally implied. > > The kid and gun argument is similar to the death penalty argument. > Enough studies have been done to know that death later is not a > deterrent to murder now. Some studies even indicate the opposite > is true. That in the area where an execution is to take place, two > weeks before and a month after, the murder rate rises. We can > only guess why it does. Had to do a lot of research on this in > community college Criminology a few years back > > The only real argument left for death penalty advocacy is that the > man we execute will not kill again. But like the kid and gun the > argument is flawed. Do to the increased murder rate due to his > execution, he does kill again. Lowest murder rate percapita in the > world only counting industrialized nations, New Zealand. I believe > the whole country had four in 1991, for the YEAR. No DP. > Sociologists have beaten their brains out trying to learn why. Bar > fights and the usual crap go on, but not murder, not like we're used > to. Maybe panpipes can tell us the population of New Zealand, I > can't recall. > > Both guns and death penalty are far more complex than the > panaceas the polititians throw at us. I'm for law and order, take em > behind the jail and shoot em, save the cost of a trial and all them > appeals. Until it's your son accused, then its all different. Then it's > where the hell is Mason's phone number? > > Had an AA woman tell me(Doing her dissertation in psychology) > that I shouldn't get involved in these controversies, learn to live and > let live. Quit trying to control the world, you'll be a lot happier if you > just stick to your own stuff. " Gee, I'd never thought of that before. > What I really told her was " I don't plan on controlling the US > government or The Great State of Iowa, but I vote every chance I > get. " > > For some reason AA folks don't get it. If I believe strongly, either > way about something, then it is " My Stuff " What if, by a stretch, I > impress one rep and he votes against the DP, I done something for > my state. It can happen by a stretch. If I'm closeted in a room not > seeing the guns killing kids, until they're mine, or innocent people > possibly being executed, then it cannot happen, by any stretch. > No rep is going to knock on my door for my opinion, I have to take > it to him. To abdicate my responsibilities as a citizen, can make > me happy? I'd be living in a fools paradise. I'd be like the > proverbial bug, who is snug in a rug, until the world, in this case a > vacuum cleaner, intrudes. > > If AA's can't stand controversy, they certainly must give up > polotics, religion and marriage, Trust me, you'll have controversy in > any of those. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Be as loud as you want > Get free email and 20MB of webspace at FortuneCity.com > http://clickhere./click/367 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 1999 Report Share Posted July 12, 1999 - Sorry about your friend. Do they make a get well card for the brainwashed?? > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: fem culty,ctd. >Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:14:37 -0700 > >Hi , >The population of New Zealand is 3.6 Million with a low population density. > >Check out one of my local AA buddie's responses to my Clancy Newsflash >parody, below. Guess I was playing to the wrong audience. He even hates >Clancy and I doubt he even bothered to read it. I think he thought I >just pulled it off of Apple's Website and emailed it to him like I did >with the picture of the brainwashed AA guy. I admit I've been in his >face with this stuff, but he's a real bro and in the past he'd always >been a real free thinker and maverick. As you can see from his reply >below, he is pretty far gone and I will just have to avoid broaching the >subject with him again. I really miss my friend because between his New >Age Angel Goddess Girlfriend and his nasty case of AA brainwashing I'm >finding little of him still here on Earth to communicate with. It's a >shame. He's a great guy. > >If anyone wants to see the sentence by sentence debunking letter I wrote >back, but am not sending, let me know and I'll post it. > > >Dude, > >Certainly, you must have more important >things to do than fill your life and mine with >this endless, unsolicited, AA debunking Bullshit! > >I mean, do you really believe this crap? > >I get the feeling that whoever is writing or creating >this malarkey is certainly wielding a belt buckle >large enough to serve an entire side of beef on! > >As your bro, I support you in whatever you want to believe in. > >However - The fact still remains: > >AA is still keeping you sober. ( even if it is out of sheer defiance of >its' >steps, program, meetings, god, fellowship, or whatever). > >This leads me to the realization of how grateful I am to have met you >(in AA) >and watch you grow. I realize that because I have good friends like you, >I am shown time and time again, that the program is perfect, and works >for >everyone! > >Even You! > > > >Love Always, > >The Guy > > > D Hall wrote: > > > > Hi ; > > > > What's wrong with cancelling Major League Baseball, never know if > > they're going to play or strike anyway 8-) When the had the > > second strike, I tuned out, don't even know who the players are > > anymore. I was working on a TV and watched the last 5 innings of > > a 12 inning cubs game this year. I watched the europe NFL > > instead. > > > > But the guns. I don't like the argument that's persuasive, that is a > > kid with no gun can't shoot anyone, it sounds good, but isn't totally > > possible anytime soon. Between legal and illegal guns, FBI > > estimates 750 million guns in the USA. 3 for every human in the > > US. How in the world could they be controlled except a ban and > > with the money the NRA has to spread around in congress, that's a > > non starter. What we need is a reinterpretation of the 2nd > > amendment. It doesn't speak of personal guns, it speaks of a well > > armed Militia. There is an implication of personal arms. Pardon, > > well regulated militia. Also read the other way, regulation of > > firearms in the militia is equally implied. > > > > The kid and gun argument is similar to the death penalty argument. > > Enough studies have been done to know that death later is not a > > deterrent to murder now. Some studies even indicate the opposite > > is true. That in the area where an execution is to take place, two > > weeks before and a month after, the murder rate rises. We can > > only guess why it does. Had to do a lot of research on this in > > community college Criminology a few years back > > > > The only real argument left for death penalty advocacy is that the > > man we execute will not kill again. But like the kid and gun the > > argument is flawed. Do to the increased murder rate due to his > > execution, he does kill again. Lowest murder rate percapita in the > > world only counting industrialized nations, New Zealand. I believe > > the whole country had four in 1991, for the YEAR. No DP. > > Sociologists have beaten their brains out trying to learn why. Bar > > fights and the usual crap go on, but not murder, not like we're used > > to. Maybe panpipes can tell us the population of New Zealand, I > > can't recall. > > > > Both guns and death penalty are far more complex than the > > panaceas the polititians throw at us. I'm for law and order, take em > > behind the jail and shoot em, save the cost of a trial and all them > > appeals. Until it's your son accused, then its all different. Then >it's > > where the hell is Mason's phone number? > > > > Had an AA woman tell me(Doing her dissertation in psychology) > > that I shouldn't get involved in these controversies, learn to live and > > let live. Quit trying to control the world, you'll be a lot happier if >you > > just stick to your own stuff. " Gee, I'd never thought of that before. > > What I really told her was " I don't plan on controlling the US > > government or The Great State of Iowa, but I vote every chance I > > get. " > > > > For some reason AA folks don't get it. If I believe strongly, either > > way about something, then it is " My Stuff " What if, by a stretch, I > > impress one rep and he votes against the DP, I done something for > > my state. It can happen by a stretch. If I'm closeted in a room not > > seeing the guns killing kids, until they're mine, or innocent people > > possibly being executed, then it cannot happen, by any stretch. > > No rep is going to knock on my door for my opinion, I have to take > > it to him. To abdicate my responsibilities as a citizen, can make > > me happy? I'd be living in a fools paradise. I'd be like the > > proverbial bug, who is snug in a rug, until the world, in this case a > > vacuum cleaner, intrudes. > > > > If AA's can't stand controversy, they certainly must give up > > polotics, religion and marriage, Trust me, you'll have controversy in > > any of those. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Be as loud as you want > > Get free email and 20MB of webspace at FortuneCity.com > > http://clickhere./click/367 > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > - Simplifying group communications > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Get in on the new revolution. The only democratic web community. >Free email. Free webspace at FortuneCity.com. >http://clickhere./click/365 > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. 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Guest guest Posted July 13, 1999 Report Share Posted July 13, 1999 Hi ; Thanks for the info on NZ. About one murder per 900 thousand per year. Wouldn't NY like that? Koch would still be mayor if he coulda' pulled that off. 8-) Maybe it would be wise to lighten up on your pal a bit. You come on kinda strong(Bout like home made horse radish) when you're enthused about something. I love it. I like a good laugh even on me if it's not sarcastic type insulting. Don't mind being insulted in fun, but folks that mean it and pretend it's in fun, piss me off. That piece you wrote on Clancy was fucking hillarious. Most clancyites would laugh if it came from the in crowd Harold is a prick and I've seen him get practically blue in the face laughing at stuff like that written about him. Just to survive the shit we did and be able to look back without crying, got to have a sense of humor. I'd write back, tell him I wrote it and I wear suspenders I don't; see a sponsor gave me this 7 inch belt buckle 8-) With my belly, big buckles are in my dreams only. I use whatever comes on the belt. It is true about my last sponsor, he gave me two large buckles, both sterling one inlaid with a half ton of Mexican Turquoise He's a good guy too, and about Thursday I'm slingin his skinny ass in detox, with or without his permission. I won't have to get a court order cause if I lay the law down, he knows I will get a court order if I have to write the sonofabitch myself! I've put it off for months now, maybe hoping he'd do something. If I have to take Roses sister as a third person and tell him he met her in a blackout. No I really wouldn't go that far , but I would get sneaky I haven't talked to Terry, his doc yet, but that's my ace if he calls me on the bluff. He is going somehow. 4 days won't kill him, that whiskey will. nuff. Your friend unfortunately doesn't want to hear it. He wants you to not have changed. Sad truth , we outgrow friends sometime. Also just as possible given a little time, he'll accept you as is, instead of still being in the program. I don't know him at all and I know how you feel about some things and that you have one hell of a sense of humor as well as being quite intelligent, so I know some things ABOUT you, but I don't know you. However, if you wish him to accept you as is, you know what the next line is. Reciprocate. The world you and I are trying to make our way in, may not be for him. He has a world he seems to like from the tone of what he said. Benjiman lin was a great debater and he once said " I can't recall losing an argument, but many times I have won an argument and lost a friend. " Bottom line, only you know what you want to do, but part of being a free thinker is wanting that right for everyone, ESPECIALLY those that disagree. We learn more I think from some folks who disagree. This place is here because we disagreed with what was. I still think it might be wise to tell him you wrote The Clancy piece for fun. From what he said it sounds like he believes you got it somewhere, not wrote it. All I can be sure of, is that whatever you do, I hope it works the way you want it to. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 1999 Report Share Posted July 13, 1999 Hi , Thanks for the insight regarding my tendency to come on a bit strong, perhaps zealous. Oh no, I've become an anti AA zealot! I guess I can let it all hang out in here, but I better reel it in a little bit out in public, especially with my few AA friends if I want to keep them. I guess I reckoned the best defence for AA bullshit is a good offence. Anyway your letter was helpful to me in drafting a letter that I could send to my brainwashed buddy. D Hall wrote: > > Hi ; > > Thanks for the info on NZ. About one murder per 900 thousand per > year. Wouldn't NY like that? Koch would still be mayor if he > coulda' pulled that off. 8-) > > Maybe it would be wise to lighten up on your pal a bit. You come > on kinda strong(Bout like home made horse radish) when you're > enthused about something. I love it. I like a good laugh even on > me if it's not sarcastic type insulting. Don't mind being insulted in > fun, but folks that mean it and pretend it's in fun, piss me off. That > piece you wrote on Clancy was fucking hillarious. Most clancyites > would laugh if it came from the in crowd Harold is a prick > and I've seen him get practically blue in the face laughing at stuff > like that written about him. Just to survive the shit we did and be > able to look back without crying, got to have a sense of humor. > > I'd write back, tell him I wrote it and I wear suspenders I don't; see > a sponsor gave me this 7 inch belt buckle 8-) With my belly, big > buckles are in my dreams only. I use whatever comes on the belt. > It is true about my last sponsor, he gave me two large buckles, > both sterling one inlaid with a half ton of Mexican Turquoise He's a > good guy too, and about Thursday I'm slingin his skinny ass in > detox, with or without his permission. I won't have to get a court > order cause if I lay the law down, he knows I will get a court order if > I have to write the sonofabitch myself! I've put it off for months now, > maybe hoping he'd do something. If I have to take Roses sister as > a third person and tell him he met her in a blackout. No I really > wouldn't go that far , but I would get sneaky I haven't talked to > Terry, his doc yet, but that's my ace if he calls me on the bluff. He > is going somehow. 4 days won't kill him, that whiskey will. nuff. > > Your friend unfortunately doesn't want to hear it. He wants you to > not have changed. Sad truth , we outgrow friends sometime. > Also just as possible given a little time, he'll accept you as is, > instead of still being in the program. I don't know him at all and I > know how you feel about some things and that you have one hell of > a sense of humor as well as being quite intelligent, so I know some > things ABOUT you, but I don't know you. However, if you wish him > to accept you as is, you know what the next line is. Reciprocate. > The world you and I are trying to make our way in, may not be for > him. He has a world he seems to like from the tone of what he > said. Benjiman lin was a great debater and he once said " I > can't recall losing an argument, but many times I have won an > argument and lost a friend. " Bottom line, only you know what you > want to do, but part of being a free thinker is wanting that right for > everyone, ESPECIALLY those that disagree. We learn more I > think from some folks who disagree. This place is here because > we disagreed with what was. I still think it might be wise to tell him > you wrote The Clancy piece for fun. From what he said it sounds > like he believes you got it somewhere, not wrote it. > > All I can be sure of, is that whatever you do, I hope it works the > way you want it to. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get in on the new revolution. The only democratic web community. > Free email. Free webspace at FortuneCity.com. > http://clickhere./click/365 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 1999 Report Share Posted July 13, 1999 Hi , Thanks for the insight regarding my tendency to come on a bit strong, perhaps zealous. Oh no, I've become an anti AA zealot! I guess I can let it all hang out in here, but I better reel it in a little bit out in public, especially with my few AA friends if I want to keep them. I guess I reckoned the best defence for AA bullshit is a good offence. Anyway your letter was helpful to me in drafting a letter that I could send to my brainwashed buddy. D Hall wrote: > > Hi ; > > Thanks for the info on NZ. About one murder per 900 thousand per > year. Wouldn't NY like that? Koch would still be mayor if he > coulda' pulled that off. 8-) > > Maybe it would be wise to lighten up on your pal a bit. You come > on kinda strong(Bout like home made horse radish) when you're > enthused about something. I love it. I like a good laugh even on > me if it's not sarcastic type insulting. Don't mind being insulted in > fun, but folks that mean it and pretend it's in fun, piss me off. That > piece you wrote on Clancy was fucking hillarious. Most clancyites > would laugh if it came from the in crowd Harold is a prick > and I've seen him get practically blue in the face laughing at stuff > like that written about him. Just to survive the shit we did and be > able to look back without crying, got to have a sense of humor. > > I'd write back, tell him I wrote it and I wear suspenders I don't; see > a sponsor gave me this 7 inch belt buckle 8-) With my belly, big > buckles are in my dreams only. I use whatever comes on the belt. > It is true about my last sponsor, he gave me two large buckles, > both sterling one inlaid with a half ton of Mexican Turquoise He's a > good guy too, and about Thursday I'm slingin his skinny ass in > detox, with or without his permission. I won't have to get a court > order cause if I lay the law down, he knows I will get a court order if > I have to write the sonofabitch myself! I've put it off for months now, > maybe hoping he'd do something. If I have to take Roses sister as > a third person and tell him he met her in a blackout. No I really > wouldn't go that far , but I would get sneaky I haven't talked to > Terry, his doc yet, but that's my ace if he calls me on the bluff. He > is going somehow. 4 days won't kill him, that whiskey will. nuff. > > Your friend unfortunately doesn't want to hear it. He wants you to > not have changed. Sad truth , we outgrow friends sometime. > Also just as possible given a little time, he'll accept you as is, > instead of still being in the program. I don't know him at all and I > know how you feel about some things and that you have one hell of > a sense of humor as well as being quite intelligent, so I know some > things ABOUT you, but I don't know you. However, if you wish him > to accept you as is, you know what the next line is. Reciprocate. > The world you and I are trying to make our way in, may not be for > him. He has a world he seems to like from the tone of what he > said. Benjiman lin was a great debater and he once said " I > can't recall losing an argument, but many times I have won an > argument and lost a friend. " Bottom line, only you know what you > want to do, but part of being a free thinker is wanting that right for > everyone, ESPECIALLY those that disagree. We learn more I > think from some folks who disagree. This place is here because > we disagreed with what was. I still think it might be wise to tell him > you wrote The Clancy piece for fun. From what he said it sounds > like he believes you got it somewhere, not wrote it. > > All I can be sure of, is that whatever you do, I hope it works the > way you want it to. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get in on the new revolution. The only democratic web community. > Free email. Free webspace at FortuneCity.com. > http://clickhere./click/365 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 1999 Report Share Posted July 13, 1999 Hi , Thanks for the insight regarding my tendency to come on a bit strong, perhaps zealous. Oh no, I've become an anti AA zealot! I guess I can let it all hang out in here, but I better reel it in a little bit out in public, especially with my few AA friends if I want to keep them. I guess I reckoned the best defence for AA bullshit is a good offence. Anyway your letter was helpful to me in drafting a letter that I could send to my brainwashed buddy. D Hall wrote: > > Hi ; > > Thanks for the info on NZ. About one murder per 900 thousand per > year. Wouldn't NY like that? Koch would still be mayor if he > coulda' pulled that off. 8-) > > Maybe it would be wise to lighten up on your pal a bit. You come > on kinda strong(Bout like home made horse radish) when you're > enthused about something. I love it. I like a good laugh even on > me if it's not sarcastic type insulting. Don't mind being insulted in > fun, but folks that mean it and pretend it's in fun, piss me off. That > piece you wrote on Clancy was fucking hillarious. Most clancyites > would laugh if it came from the in crowd Harold is a prick > and I've seen him get practically blue in the face laughing at stuff > like that written about him. Just to survive the shit we did and be > able to look back without crying, got to have a sense of humor. > > I'd write back, tell him I wrote it and I wear suspenders I don't; see > a sponsor gave me this 7 inch belt buckle 8-) With my belly, big > buckles are in my dreams only. I use whatever comes on the belt. > It is true about my last sponsor, he gave me two large buckles, > both sterling one inlaid with a half ton of Mexican Turquoise He's a > good guy too, and about Thursday I'm slingin his skinny ass in > detox, with or without his permission. I won't have to get a court > order cause if I lay the law down, he knows I will get a court order if > I have to write the sonofabitch myself! I've put it off for months now, > maybe hoping he'd do something. If I have to take Roses sister as > a third person and tell him he met her in a blackout. No I really > wouldn't go that far , but I would get sneaky I haven't talked to > Terry, his doc yet, but that's my ace if he calls me on the bluff. He > is going somehow. 4 days won't kill him, that whiskey will. nuff. > > Your friend unfortunately doesn't want to hear it. He wants you to > not have changed. Sad truth , we outgrow friends sometime. > Also just as possible given a little time, he'll accept you as is, > instead of still being in the program. I don't know him at all and I > know how you feel about some things and that you have one hell of > a sense of humor as well as being quite intelligent, so I know some > things ABOUT you, but I don't know you. However, if you wish him > to accept you as is, you know what the next line is. Reciprocate. > The world you and I are trying to make our way in, may not be for > him. He has a world he seems to like from the tone of what he > said. Benjiman lin was a great debater and he once said " I > can't recall losing an argument, but many times I have won an > argument and lost a friend. " Bottom line, only you know what you > want to do, but part of being a free thinker is wanting that right for > everyone, ESPECIALLY those that disagree. We learn more I > think from some folks who disagree. This place is here because > we disagreed with what was. I still think it might be wise to tell him > you wrote The Clancy piece for fun. From what he said it sounds > like he believes you got it somewhere, not wrote it. > > All I can be sure of, is that whatever you do, I hope it works the > way you want it to. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get in on the new revolution. The only democratic web community. > Free email. Free webspace at FortuneCity.com. > http://clickhere./click/365 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 Good luck and hope you do come back. This group's discussions ebb and flow and go in cycles. Maybe not every thing is 12-step-free 100% of the time, but I have learned to much other interesting information from the members in this group. Jan Re: fem culty,ctd. >Hi gang, >I' m leaving the list for now. I' not in the mood for political debates and >such. Also, I feel that e-mail is not a good forum of expression for for me. >In communication, I need eye contact and voice inflection for this kind of >communication., unless I really know somebody. Also, I don't think I present >myself in the best light. It has been fun, maybe I'll come back at another >time. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. >Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99 >at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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