Guest guest Posted February 5, 2002 Report Share Posted February 5, 2002 > We are getting ready to start our 2nd round of chelation (w/Dr. > Kartzinel) for my just turned 4yo son. We have already seen some > minor improvements, but Brett's sleep habits are completely > disrupted. > > We started giving him some melatonin during the " preload " phase > because he wasn't able to fall asleep at night after he started > taking ALA and N-acetyl cysteine. There are never any circumstances ALA should be used on other than an every 3-4 hour chelation schedule. Doing otherwise makes mercury toxic people worse, not better. Also the NAC is only appropriate if he has demonstrated low thiols, e. g. by Great Smokies plasma cysteine test. > We now have to give him 1/2 mg of > melatonin (Kirkman's Melatonin Plus) every night, and 1 mg on DMSA > days, just to get him to bed. It is OK to use more than this. > However, about half the time since we > started the melatonin, he is wide awake and ready to party for 2-3 > hours in the middle of the night. I've tried giving him more > melatonin when he wakes up, but it seems to have no effect on getting > him back to sleep after midnight. You might try time release melatonin. The Life Extension Foundation has a good time release product that comes in capsules which are very easy to pull apart so you can use as much or as little as you want and you can hide it in food. Half is immediate release to put him to sleep and the other half is delayed release to keep him there. It works wonderfully well. > We tried giving him 1 mg before > bed on a non-DMSA day (during preload- we had recently started ALA > and NAC), and it was a disaster. He slept all night, but was nearly > catatonic the next morning (his ABA therapist said he regressed a > year!), and by that evening, he was screaming and banging his head on > the floor. Now I'm afraid to try 1 mg again, although his behavior > that horrible day may have been due to starting the ALA and NAC > rather than melatonin rebound. Why not find out by stopping them for a while? > > Any advice? Don't use ALA inappropriately - that is, other than as a chelator on an every 3-4 hour schedule, and check into his sulfur levels rather than treating them blind. Also try the time release melatonin. >Should we increase his melatonin to 1 mg, wait for his > body to adjust to the chelation, or what? Any ideas on getting him > to sleep all night would be greatly appreciated! > Thanks for your Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Kinnesiology would say that if your child is waking up between 1-3 am (sometimes as late as 4) that his liver is having difficulty. Look at things to help cleanse and build liver function as well as make sure he's not taking too much vitamin A. The nighttime partying is very common for austistic kids especially ones that don't handle toxins well. Sometimes taking a break to cleanse the liver can help. Also, other cases can be tied to too much vitamin A (Super Nuthera does this for some kids) and reducing that level helps. Gaylen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 > We are getting ready to start our 2nd round of chelation (w/Dr. > Kartzinel) for my just turned 4yo son. We have already seen some > minor improvements, but Brett's sleep habits are completely > disrupted. When I started my son on ALA, he developed a yeast issue, which for him is basically the same symptoms as high phenols, he was hyper and laughing and had lots of trouble sleeping. I gave him GSE [grapefruit seed extract from health food store] and all the symptoms went away. I know several people whose children developed yeast after ALA, so you can consider that. > > We started giving him some melatonin during the " preload " phase > because he wasn't able to fall asleep at night after he started > taking ALA and N-acetyl cysteine. We now have to give him 1/2 mg of > melatonin (Kirkman's Melatonin Plus) every night, and 1 mg on DMSA > days, just to get him to bed. However, about half the time since we > started the melatonin, he is wide awake and ready to party for 2-3 > hours in the middle of the night. I've tried giving him more > melatonin when he wakes up, but it seems to have no effect on getting > him back to sleep after midnight. Melatonin has this sort of effect for many AS children, it causes the opposite effect as the one you want. I would recommend you stop the melatonin and consider testing/treating for yeast. Dana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 Also not giving super nu thera after 3 pm and doing the gluten and casein free diet help with sleep as well. tracy Re: [ ] Re: Chelation=No Sleep? Kinnesiology would say that if your child is waking up between 1-3 am (sometimes as late as 4) that his liver is having difficulty. Look at things to help cleanse and build liver function as well as make sure he's not taking too much vitamin A. The nighttime partying is very common for austistic kids especially ones that don't handle toxins well. Sometimes taking a break to cleanse the liver can help. Also, other cases can be tied to too much vitamin A (Super Nuthera does this for some kids) and reducing that level helps. Gaylen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 > Kinnesiology would say that if your child is waking up between 1-3 am > (sometimes as late as 4) that his liver is having difficulty. Look at things > to help cleanse and build liver function as well as make sure he's not taking > too much vitamin A. The nighttime partying is very common for austistic kids > especially ones that don't handle toxins well. Sometimes taking a break to > cleanse the liver can help. Also, other cases can be tied to too much > vitamin A (Super Nuthera does this for some kids) and reducing that level > helps. > Gaylen Gaylen, Thanks for the info. We have switched from SNT to the regular NuThera (with no Vitamins A or D), since he's taking 3 CLO capsules a day. We are planning to do blood tests to check his liver toxicity soon; its part of Kartzinel's protocol. In the meantime, what things to " build and cleanse the liver " are you talking about? Anything over the counter? Thanks- Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 > Also not giving super nu thera after 3 pm and doing the gluten and casein free diet help with sleep as well. tracy He's gfcf and no NuThera after 3:00 already, but thanks for the suggestions! Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 > When I started my son on ALA, he developed a yeast issue, which for > him is basically the same symptoms as high phenols, he was hyper and > laughing and had lots of trouble sleeping. > I know several people whose children developed yeast after ALA, so you > can consider that. > Yikes! We treated for yeast for about 6 months starting a year ago, and he finally tested yeast-free. I guess we'll have to test again- thanks for the heads up! Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 --- In @y..., " andrewhallcutler " <AndyCutler@a...> wrote: > There are never any circumstances ALA should be used on other than an > every 3-4 hour chelation schedule. Doing otherwise makes mercury > toxic people worse, not better. Why? Kartzinel's protocol has us giving him 50 mg of ALA twice a day, every day, with DMSA to " clean up " for 3 days every two weeks. > Also the NAC is only appropriate if he has demonstrated low thiols, e.g. by Great Smokies plasma cysteine test. He does have low thiols, based on this test. Can you explain what the NAC does? > You might try time release melatonin. The Life Extension Foundation > has a good time release product that comes in capsules which are very > easy to pull apart so you can use as much or as little as you want and > you can hide it in food. Half is immediate release to put him to > sleep and the other half is delayed release to keep him there. It > works wonderfully well. Sounds great! Where can I get it? Online or in a HFS? Thanks for your help! Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 >In the meantime, what things > to " build and cleanse the liver " are you talking about? Anything > over the counter? Milk thistle extract, the vitamins you are already giving him, more vitamin E. > Thanks- > Su Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 > > There are never any circumstances ALA should be used on other than > an > > every 3-4 hour chelation schedule. Doing otherwise makes mercury > > toxic people worse, not better. > > Why? Kartzinel's protocol has us giving him 50 mg of ALA twice a > day, every day, with DMSA to " clean up " for 3 days every two weeks. I am sorry that you have a doc who hasn't familiarized himself with the pharmacokinetic properties of the substances he chooses to prescribe. ALA chelates mercury and allows it to pass through the blood/brain barrier. Since the brain has a higher affinity for mercury than the blood does, the effect of doses not spaced closely enough together is to slowly concentrate most available mercury into the brain. This happens on a timescale of 3-6 hours after each ALA dose. By the next day it is done. Since the brain is the target organ for mercury intoxication it is not a good idea to move MORE mercury into it. You wish to use your ALA in such a way as to move mercury OUT of it. DMSA does not cross the blood-brain barrier or remove mercury from the brain to a clinically significant extent. Taking DMSA to " mop up " the mercury is only effective if the DMSA is in his system during the 6 hours following the ALA dose. Waiting until days to weeks later means the DMSA has absolutely no effect on the amount of mercury the ALA packs into the brain when used improperly. > > > > Also the NAC is only appropriate if he has demonstrated low thiols, > e.g. by Great Smokies plasma cysteine test. > > He does have low thiols, based on this test. Can you explain what > the NAC does? It crosses cell membranes readily, is de-acetylated to cysteine and thus increases the intracellular cysteine available for glutathione formation or for direct use as an antioxidant. > > > > You might try time release melatonin. The Life Extension > Foundation > > has a good time release product that comes in capsules which are > very > > easy to pull apart so you can use as much or as little as you want > and > > you can hide it in food. Half is immediate release to put him to > > sleep and the other half is delayed release to keep him there. It > > works wonderfully well. > > Sounds great! Where can I get it? Online or in a HFS? Online. Few stores carry it. www.lef.org. > > Thanks for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2002 Report Share Posted February 12, 2002 In a message dated 2/7/02 9:21:38 AM Central Standard Time, brettsmomsue@... writes: > We are planning to do blood tests to check his liver toxicity > soon; its part of Kartzinel's protocol. In the meantime, what things > to " build and cleanse the liver " are you talking about? I saw Andy already addressed this question but I wanted to mention that we've found homeopathic drainers for the liver to be very helpful for this. I've posted the contact info on the brands we've used several times on this list but if you can't find it, e-mail me privately and I'll dig it up. Gaylen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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