Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Kim I had the same problem, acting like a know it all, and offering unsolicited advice all the time. It's easy, if you don't truly know the answer, don't attempt to give it. I thought I knew it all when I was a Grouper, , how ashamed I am of all the useless words that I gave as what believed to be fact. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Hi ; You gave advice on what you knew at the time. Being able to change your mind is a great thing and I congratulate you. Back when we thought we knew things, but were ourselves victims of bad information. The catch 22 is when you run into people you advised and they will not listen to you now. That's the nature of group pressure and not your fault. We were who we were then and we are different now. Some philosopher(Plato?) said The only constant is change. Good! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 HI! I know. The psychobabble phenomenon can be a nightmare. Lately, I just think the trite reply to myself or make a joke out of it. I hope that my post is within normative cultural expectations and that I'm not taken for a toxic person from whom you will have to work on your codependency issues. :.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Kim, I've always been the type who stops using certain phrases and words when they become faddish. That includes the 'psychobabble' you talk about. Even in AA I found myself choking to get a slogan out of my mouth. Basically I stay away form books of the Bradshaw, Melodie Beatty, daily devotionals, ilk. I watch programs like 'Law and Order' where it seems every episode Lenny spouts a psychobabble slogan sarcastically. Needless to say I don't attend CODA, Adult Children of This or That, and, of course, AA. I go to church but even there I shy away from 'we are so with it' Christianity and the Holy Roller crowd. I don't buy religious books either that go too far one way or the other. Basically if an author has an infomercial, I avoid the book. The longer you're away from the warm and fuzzy crowd, the less you'll speak recoveryspeak. Jan wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5332 > > Does anybody else have this problem which is really getting on my > nerves- after so much NA/AA and " treatment " it seems I have developed a > psychobabble generator. If you ask me about any certain problem I have, > I can generate 4 or 5 psychobabble explanations for it- abandonment, > fear of enmeshment, fear of failure, fear of success, etc, etc, etc, AD > NAUSEUM. > > The problem is, sometimes I can't even figure out which (if any) of > the ideas I come up with are true or not, and which are just from the > psychobabble generator!Aargh! How to tell? Any ideas? Aaargh! > kim ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Hi Jan, Living here in Southern California is like living in the bible belt equivalent of warm, fuzzy, psychobabbling , recoveryspeak. It's everywhere!!!!!!!! I may have to move. flicka1@... wrote: > > Kim, > > I've always been the type who stops using certain phrases and words > when they become faddish. That includes the 'psychobabble' you talk > about. Even in AA I found myself choking to get a slogan out of my > mouth. Basically I stay away form books of the Bradshaw, Melodie > Beatty, daily devotionals, ilk. I watch programs like 'Law and Order' > where it seems every episode Lenny spouts a psychobabble slogan > sarcastically. Needless to say I don't attend CODA, Adult Children of > This or That, and, of course, AA. I go to church but even there I shy > away from 'we are so with it' Christianity and the Holy Roller crowd. > I don't buy religious books either that go too far one way or the > other. Basically if an author has an infomercial, I avoid the book. > The longer you're away from the warm and fuzzy crowd, the less you'll > speak recoveryspeak. > > Jan > > > > wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5332 > > > > Does anybody else have this problem which is really getting on my > > nerves- after so much NA/AA and " treatment " it seems I have developed > a > > psychobabble generator. If you ask me about any certain problem I > have, > > I can generate 4 or 5 psychobabble explanations for it- abandonment, > > fear of enmeshment, fear of failure, fear of success, etc, etc, etc, > AD > > NAUSEUM. > > > > The problem is, sometimes I can't even figure out which (if any) of > > the ideas I come up with are true or not, and which are just from the > > psychobabble generator!Aargh! How to tell? Any ideas? Aaargh! > > kim > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Apply for a NextCard credit card: Save Money with a low intro rate and > no annual fee. Make Shopping Easy with Safe Shopping Guarantees, 1 Click > Shopping and Double Rewards. http://clickhere./click/448 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Right on, . It seems like, with any effort at directed change (like quitting a habit), there comes that moment when I just have to face that I want something that I can't have. (Or conversely I have to do something I don't want to do.) And no one can help me deal with THAT moment. It's so easy to change my mind at that moment, and so difficult to keep making the decision to change, over and over. To make it worse, there are usually several " moments of truth " over the course of months, even years. It's NOT easy to change, and no program will make it easy. Did that make any sense? judith > Best way I've found to spot offending books: ANYTHING which offers " 7 steps to (fill in the blank) " 10 ways to (fill in the blank) " -- e.g., anything which wants to offer you " simple " solutions to complex problems. There ARE no easy answers. Real life is messy, complex, interconnected with a myriad of things which seemingly have little to do with the problem at hand, and usually have unexpected consequences, whatever the response for the good or bad. Anyone who says differently is a BS artist and a liar.> _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Right on, . It seems like, with any effort at directed change (like quitting a habit), there comes that moment when I just have to face that I want something that I can't have. (Or conversely I have to do something I don't want to do.) And no one can help me deal with THAT moment. It's so easy to change my mind at that moment, and so difficult to keep making the decision to change, over and over. To make it worse, there are usually several " moments of truth " over the course of months, even years. It's NOT easy to change, and no program will make it easy. Did that make any sense? judith > Best way I've found to spot offending books: ANYTHING which offers " 7 steps to (fill in the blank) " 10 ways to (fill in the blank) " -- e.g., anything which wants to offer you " simple " solutions to complex problems. There ARE no easy answers. Real life is messy, complex, interconnected with a myriad of things which seemingly have little to do with the problem at hand, and usually have unexpected consequences, whatever the response for the good or bad. Anyone who says differently is a BS artist and a liar.> _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 1999 Report Share Posted July 6, 1999 flicka1@... writes: > I've always been the type who stops using certain phrases and words > when they become faddish. That includes the 'psychobabble' you talk > about. Even in AA I found myself choking to get a slogan out of my > mouth. Basically I stay away form books of the Bradshaw, Melodie > Beatty, daily devotionals, ilk. Best way I've found to spot offending books: ANYTHING which offers " 7 steps to (fill in the blank) " 10 ways to (fill in the blank) " -- e.g., anything which wants to offer you " simple " solutions to complex problems. There ARE no easy answers. Real life is messy, complex, interconnected with a myriad of things which seemingly have little to do with the problem at hand, and usually have unexpected consequences, whatever the response for the good or bad. Anyone who says differently is a BS artist and a liar. > The longer you're away from the warm and fuzzy crowd, the less you'll > speak recoveryspeak. And when anyone throws it up at you, respond with a wide eyed " Oh, really? " and ask them to explain exactly what they mean. (If you pretend to ignorance you can do this without being aggressive or offensive :^) You'll find that most of them will start hemming and hawing because such talk gives them an illusion of knowledge without providing them with any real information. You (and sometimes they) will discover that they really have no idea on earth what they're talking about. Regards, ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 1999 Report Share Posted July 6, 1999 flicka1@... writes: > I've always been the type who stops using certain phrases and words > when they become faddish. That includes the 'psychobabble' you talk > about. Even in AA I found myself choking to get a slogan out of my > mouth. Basically I stay away form books of the Bradshaw, Melodie > Beatty, daily devotionals, ilk. Best way I've found to spot offending books: ANYTHING which offers " 7 steps to (fill in the blank) " 10 ways to (fill in the blank) " -- e.g., anything which wants to offer you " simple " solutions to complex problems. There ARE no easy answers. Real life is messy, complex, interconnected with a myriad of things which seemingly have little to do with the problem at hand, and usually have unexpected consequences, whatever the response for the good or bad. Anyone who says differently is a BS artist and a liar. > The longer you're away from the warm and fuzzy crowd, the less you'll > speak recoveryspeak. And when anyone throws it up at you, respond with a wide eyed " Oh, really? " and ask them to explain exactly what they mean. (If you pretend to ignorance you can do this without being aggressive or offensive :^) You'll find that most of them will start hemming and hawing because such talk gives them an illusion of knowledge without providing them with any real information. You (and sometimes they) will discover that they really have no idea on earth what they're talking about. Regards, ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 1999 Report Share Posted July 9, 1999 In a message dated 7/5/99 5:40:44 PM Central Daylight Time, kimrh67@... writes: << Does anybody else have this problem which is really getting on my nerves- after so much NA/AA and " treatment " it seems I have developed a psychobabble generator. If you ask me about any certain problem I have, I can generate 4 or 5 psychobabble explanations for it- abandonment, fear of enmeshment, fear of failure, fear of success, etc, etc, etc, AD NAUSEUM. >> Learn to identify the elements of these " problems " ; see them in explicit terms. " I am depressed " becomes " My breathing is shallow and I am focusing on details x, y and z. " Reduce them to data. There is no failure, there are only results. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 1999 Report Share Posted July 9, 1999 Do you think you can make that decision and not change your mind? Carol At 05:29 AM 7/6/99 PDT, you wrote: >Right on, . It seems like, with any effort at directed change (like >quitting a habit), there comes that moment when I just have to face that I >want something that I can't have. (Or conversely I have to do something I >don't want to do.) And no one can help me deal with THAT moment. It's so >easy to change my mind at that moment, and so difficult to keep making the >decision to change, over and over. To make it worse, there are usually >several " moments of truth " over the course of months, even years. It's NOT >easy to change, and no program will make it easy. > >Did that make any sense? >judith > > > >> Best way I've found to spot offending books: ANYTHING which offers " 7 >steps to (fill in the blank) " 10 ways to (fill in the blank) " -- e.g., >anything which wants to offer you " simple " solutions to complex problems. >There ARE no easy answers. Real life is messy, complex, interconnected with >a myriad of things which seemingly have little to do with the problem at >hand, and usually have unexpected consequences, whatever the response for >the good or bad. Anyone who says differently is a BS artist and a liar.> > > > > > >_______________________________________________________ >Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning >FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program. >http://clickhere./click/449 > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Life is a candy store. Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at http://www.bcrecovernet.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 1999 Report Share Posted July 9, 1999 To: " Recovery Watch List " Subject: Re: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section (2) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:04:45 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 > Have you ever been a member of the fellowship? Have you read the Big Book? Yes and yes and yes. I was a member of AA for short of a year and then publicly renounced my membership. I was a member of NA for several years, but never officially announced anything resembling a renunciation. I go back avery few years to collect my annual " chips " -- and watch those who hated me squirm in their seats! I was ordered by the court to attend Twelve-Step meetings for two years and one month (without the " benefit " of a drug- or alcohol-related *charge*). In that time I logged over 1700 meetings and I still have all my slips. You might say I was rather busy. Truth is, I was scared stiff of the courts and of a patently unreasonable judge; meanwhile, I made the best of a bad situation. It wasn't until long after this that I even mentioned the fact that I had been held in jail for an extra 24 days for my initial refusal to attend AA and to go to AA-based treatment. Such an experience will make an activist out of anybody. Furthermore, I not only read the " Big Book " and the NA " Basic Text " several times each, I *typed* them both -- cover to cover -- as part of my typing practice when I was teaching myself how to type. I was also a standing member of the World Literature Committee of NA while they developed their Steps and Traditions manual. During that time, I typed the entire book, analyzed it line by line, and submitted my criticism to the committee. An editorial I wrote was published in " NA Way " Magazine in 1993: http://www.aracnet.com/~atheism/rw/unitykey.htm Also, I am mentioned (not by name) in the current (July, 1999) issue of " NA Way " on Page 16 as " a member of the fellowship " who " pointed out that the committee's efforts were still falling short " in that there was " no material that addressed belief in a higher power that wasn't a supernatural deity. " Though I didn't need written verification from the editor of " NA Way " to recognize that they were talking about me, she sent me a letter stating such anyway. I will be publishing a piece from " NA Way " in a future " Positive Atheism. " > Where does it say in the Big Book that we have to get rid of prejudice? Chapter 4. " Laying aside .. prejudice " (regarding AA's religious dogma and *very* specific description of " God " ) is a prerequisite to getting results in AA, which is (ultimately -- according to Chapter 4) a prerequisite to remaining alive: " But [the newcomer's] face falls when we speak of spiritual matters, especially when we mention God, for we have re-opened a subject which our man thought he had neatly evaded or entirely ignored. We know how he feels. We have shared his honest doubt and prejudice. Some of us have been violently anti-religious. " (page 45) " ...as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results... " (page 46) " Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you... " (page 47) > They do not say you have to believe in anything it is suggested that you > find a power greater than yourself. The " Big Book " offers you two options: Believe in God or die. This is elucidated very clearly in Chapter 4: " To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster ... To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face. " (Page 44 -- The terminology " feels he is an atheist " suggests that there is no such thing as a *real* atheist. Elsewhere, Chapter 4 makes it clear that atheists are being dishonest, implying that *everybody* knows, deep down inside, that there is such thing as a god or gods. To me, any atheist who is not thoroughly offended by this implication -- this false charge of self-deceit -- has probably dulled his or her sensitivities and has certainly warped his or her sense of dignity.) > You take with you what applies to you and you leave the rest. Where does it say *that* in the " Big Book " ? > There are plenty of members who do not > believe in God and they are leading a very full life. We go one stage further than that in saying that the vast majority of formerly addicted people *never seek help* for their addictions -- and are leading very full lives. In this sense, it matters not what theology (if any) one subscribes to. This cannot be said for Alcoholics Anonymous, who are given very stern ultimatums (in Chapter 4 of the " Big Book " ) to believe in God or be doomed to a miserable death. > The main > purpose is one Alcoholic talking to another. How can one who openly believes in what AA considers to be tantamount to heresy find anybody to talk with? (Of course, they talk *to* each other through their monologues, but this is not conversation.) I went to AA for years and years and had no AA friends. I had a few in NA, which openly courts atheists, but I had none -- absolutely none -- in AA. And I had many fewer friends in NA once I came out of the closet and began discussing my atheism and how that does and does not apply to the Program. > Also Where did you here we think Bill W. is the anti-christ? That is > ridiculous. LOL There is no antichrist and there is no Bill W. (any more). Where did you get the idea that we think you think Bill W. was the antichrist? Cliff Recovery Watch http://www.aracnet.com/~atheism/tocrw.htm atheism@... " As soon as you're born They make you feel small... " -- Lennon (1940-1980) " Changes take place, not independent of man's will, but on account of man's wills. Civilization has progressed by man's interference with material conditions. " -- Gora (1902-1975) " The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. -- Jefferson (1743-1826) * * At 10:57 PM 7/9/99 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 7/5/99 5:40:44 PM Central Daylight Time, kimrh67@... >writes: > ><< > Does anybody else have this problem which is really getting on my > nerves- after so much NA/AA and " treatment " it seems I have developed a > psychobabble generator. If you ask me about any certain problem I have, > I can generate 4 or 5 psychobabble explanations for it- abandonment, > fear of enmeshment, fear of failure, fear of success, etc, etc, etc, AD > NAUSEUM. > >> > >Learn to identify the elements of these " problems " ; see them in explicit >terms. " I am depressed " becomes " My breathing is shallow and I am focusing on >details x, y and z. " Reduce them to data. There is no failure, there are only >results. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Be as loud as you want >Get free email and 20MB of webspace at FortuneCity.com >http://clickhere./click/367 > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Life is a candy store. Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at http://www.bcrecovernet.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 1999 Report Share Posted July 10, 1999 I'm not sure, Carol. I have done it before. But right now, it seems like I am up against some very old beliefs about why it's wrong for me to control my life. *It will make someone else feel bad. *Something terrible will happen. I will be punished for it. I *deserve* to be punished for it. *No one will love me if I'm " selfish. " *It will prove what a bad person I am. I've been reading what people write here and in another list I read, the Smart Recovery mailing list. It helps to apply REBT concepts to these beliefs, but it doesn't happen quickly, at least not for me. And I'm committed to doing this--becoming sober, regaining control of my life--for MYSELF, in a way that works for ME. When I read what I just wrote, it sounds kind of weasley, like I'm trying to avoid responsibility for my behavior. I'm really impressed by the strength of people's convictions here, that people can just make a decision and stick with it. And I wonder why it doesn't seem that easy for me. But it doesn't matter how easy or difficult it is for someone else. Comparison becomes an excuse: " well, it was easy for him/her, but it's hard for me, so I guess that means I'm not meant to be in control of my life. My mother/ teacher/ boss was right. " I think that, in the long run, the answer to your question is: yes, I can make that decision and stick with it. I can make the same decision over and over until it becomes a habit. Judith > Do you think you can make that decision and not change your mind? > > Carol > [at some point I, Judith, wrote:] > >It seems like, with any effort at directed change (like quitting a habit), there comes that moment when I just have to face that I want something that I can't have. (Or conversely I have to do something I > >don't want to do.) And no one can help me deal with THAT moment. It's so easy to change my mind at that moment, and so difficult to keep making the decision to change, over and over.> > _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 1999 Report Share Posted July 10, 1999 In a message dated 7/10/99 4:03:28 PM Central Daylight Time, kayleighs@... writes: << I'm trying to shore up my resolve, or I'm just so relieved for a few minutes to be in a place where people agree with me. >> I think this is possibly where I am the last few days.....as I said in a past post this week, I feel " safe " here but still yet I will proceed with caution. It does feel good to be agreeing about the disagreeable(meaning, what I have been disagreeing with, AA programming....Do it or Drink and Die) It was by totally giving all I was to AA that I lost who I am finding again. So, therefore, no one need know every detail of someone else's life or heart totally. Life's ground is just too uncertain whatever one is involved in. And I have to remember there are wolves in sheeps clothing behind some computers, as well as there were behind coffee cups in AA. Leigh ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 1999 Report Share Posted July 10, 1999 In a message dated 7/10/99 4:03:28 PM Central Daylight Time, kayleighs@... writes: << I'm trying to shore up my resolve, or I'm just so relieved for a few minutes to be in a place where people agree with me. >> I think this is possibly where I am the last few days.....as I said in a past post this week, I feel " safe " here but still yet I will proceed with caution. It does feel good to be agreeing about the disagreeable(meaning, what I have been disagreeing with, AA programming....Do it or Drink and Die) It was by totally giving all I was to AA that I lost who I am finding again. So, therefore, no one need know every detail of someone else's life or heart totally. Life's ground is just too uncertain whatever one is involved in. And I have to remember there are wolves in sheeps clothing behind some computers, as well as there were behind coffee cups in AA. Leigh ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 1999 Report Share Posted July 10, 1999 Judith: Your second asterisk here really caught my eye. I am exactly there. When I met my fiance, I always had the feeling that we would never get married. I didn't deserve him. His ex accused me of breaking up their marriage. I didn not deserve to be happy, ever. Not true, but there was always the the thought that I would be punished; that I was being very bad. Three days before our wedding, his favorite son was killed. That was three months ago tomorrow. Ever since then I have been throught hell. I got exactly what I deserved, didn't I? My fiance is devastated and it was my fault. We'll never get married because he was flying down to make our wedding cake and stand up with his dad and there are too many memories attached to Nick's death and us getting married to EVER get married. IT will never be a happy occasion. I know some of this isn't true, but the thoughts are RIGHT THERE ALL THE TIME. I am calling a grief counselor first thing Monday. I have the self-destuctive thoughts that will kill me if I don't do something immediately. Judith, take care of working on those thoughts as soon as you feel able to. Cognitive therapy is what it's called. If the grief counseling doesn't work, that's where I'm heading. Love, wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5609 > I'm not sure, Carol. I have done it before. But right now, it seems like I > am up against some very old beliefs about why it's wrong for me to control > my life. > > *It will make someone else feel bad. > *Something terrible will happen. I will be punished for it. I *deserve* to > be punished for it. > *No one will love me if I'm " selfish. " > *It will prove what a bad person I am. > > I've been reading what people write here and in another list I read, the > Smart Recovery mailing list. It helps to apply REBT concepts to these > beliefs, but it doesn't happen quickly, at least not for me. And I'm > committed to doing this--becoming sober, regaining control of my life--for > MYSELF, in a way that works for ME. > > When I read what I just wrote, it sounds kind of weasley, like I'm trying to > avoid responsibility for my behavior. I'm really impressed by the strength > of people's convictions here, that people can just make a decision and stick > with it. And I wonder why it doesn't seem that easy for me. > > But it doesn't matter how easy or difficult it is for someone else. > Comparison becomes an excuse: " well, it was easy for him/her, but it's hard > for me, so I guess that means I'm not meant to be in control of my life. My > mother/ teacher/ boss was right. " > > I think that, in the long run, the answer to your question is: yes, I can > make that decision and stick with it. I can make the same decision over and > over until it becomes a habit. > > Judith > > > > > Do you think you can make that decision and not change your mind? > > > > Carol > > > [at some point I, Judith, wrote:] > > >It seems like, with any effort at directed change (like quitting a > habit), there comes that moment when I just have to face that I want > something that I can't have. (Or conversely I have to do something I > > >don't want to do.) And no one can help me deal with THAT moment. It's > so easy to change my mind at that moment, and so difficult to keep making > the decision to change, over and over.> > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 1999 Report Share Posted July 10, 1999 Judith: Your second asterisk here really caught my eye. I am exactly there. When I met my fiance, I always had the feeling that we would never get married. I didn't deserve him. His ex accused me of breaking up their marriage. I didn not deserve to be happy, ever. Not true, but there was always the the thought that I would be punished; that I was being very bad. Three days before our wedding, his favorite son was killed. That was three months ago tomorrow. Ever since then I have been throught hell. I got exactly what I deserved, didn't I? My fiance is devastated and it was my fault. We'll never get married because he was flying down to make our wedding cake and stand up with his dad and there are too many memories attached to Nick's death and us getting married to EVER get married. IT will never be a happy occasion. I know some of this isn't true, but the thoughts are RIGHT THERE ALL THE TIME. I am calling a grief counselor first thing Monday. I have the self-destuctive thoughts that will kill me if I don't do something immediately. Judith, take care of working on those thoughts as soon as you feel able to. Cognitive therapy is what it's called. If the grief counseling doesn't work, that's where I'm heading. Love, wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5609 > I'm not sure, Carol. I have done it before. But right now, it seems like I > am up against some very old beliefs about why it's wrong for me to control > my life. > > *It will make someone else feel bad. > *Something terrible will happen. I will be punished for it. I *deserve* to > be punished for it. > *No one will love me if I'm " selfish. " > *It will prove what a bad person I am. > > I've been reading what people write here and in another list I read, the > Smart Recovery mailing list. It helps to apply REBT concepts to these > beliefs, but it doesn't happen quickly, at least not for me. And I'm > committed to doing this--becoming sober, regaining control of my life--for > MYSELF, in a way that works for ME. > > When I read what I just wrote, it sounds kind of weasley, like I'm trying to > avoid responsibility for my behavior. I'm really impressed by the strength > of people's convictions here, that people can just make a decision and stick > with it. And I wonder why it doesn't seem that easy for me. > > But it doesn't matter how easy or difficult it is for someone else. > Comparison becomes an excuse: " well, it was easy for him/her, but it's hard > for me, so I guess that means I'm not meant to be in control of my life. My > mother/ teacher/ boss was right. " > > I think that, in the long run, the answer to your question is: yes, I can > make that decision and stick with it. I can make the same decision over and > over until it becomes a habit. > > Judith > > > > > Do you think you can make that decision and not change your mind? > > > > Carol > > > [at some point I, Judith, wrote:] > > >It seems like, with any effort at directed change (like quitting a > habit), there comes that moment when I just have to face that I want > something that I can't have. (Or conversely I have to do something I > > >don't want to do.) And no one can help me deal with THAT moment. It's > so easy to change my mind at that moment, and so difficult to keep making > the decision to change, over and over.> > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 1999 Report Share Posted July 10, 1999 I don't think it is easy for most of us to make a decision to leave AA and stick with it and not feel haunted by all the stuff we've learned and the attitudes of the people, both in and out of AA, who believe we've made the wrong decision. I know it wasn't for me. I think the decision is further in the past for some of us than for others, and it certainly becomes easier with time. But I myself am still troubled by old programming coming back. If I sound different in my posts, it may be for many reasons -- I'm trying to shore up my resolve, or I'm just so relieved for a few minutes to be in a place where people agree with me. It might be that most people out of the program would agree with me if they knew how AA operates, especially since tx centers entered the picture. But most people don't know this, and I'm not willing to discuss that part of my life with them, because I don't want to revisit it and because I don't want to tell people I was in AA, any more than I would tell them I was in therapy of any kind, or that I had cancer surgery, or whatever. There are lots of things you just don't share with everyone you run into. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5609 > I'm not sure, Carol. I have done it before. But right now, it seems like I > am up against some very old beliefs about why it's wrong for me to control > my life. > > *It will make someone else feel bad. > *Something terrible will happen. I will be punished for it. I *deserve* to > be punished for it. > *No one will love me if I'm " selfish. " > *It will prove what a bad person I am. > > I've been reading what people write here and in another list I read, the > Smart Recovery mailing list. It helps to apply REBT concepts to these > beliefs, but it doesn't happen quickly, at least not for me. And I'm > committed to doing this--becoming sober, regaining control of my life--for > MYSELF, in a way that works for ME. > > When I read what I just wrote, it sounds kind of weasley, like I'm trying to > avoid responsibility for my behavior. I'm really impressed by the strength > of people's convictions here, that people can just make a decision and stick > with it. And I wonder why it doesn't seem that easy for me. > > But it doesn't matter how easy or difficult it is for someone else. > Comparison becomes an excuse: " well, it was easy for him/her, but it's hard > for me, so I guess that means I'm not meant to be in control of my life. My > mother/ teacher/ boss was right. " > > I think that, in the long run, the answer to your question is: yes, I can > make that decision and stick with it. I can make the same decision over and > over until it becomes a habit. > > Judith > > > > > Do you think you can make that decision and not change your mind? > > > > Carol > > > [at some point I, Judith, wrote:] > > >It seems like, with any effort at directed change (like quitting a > habit), there comes that moment when I just have to face that I want > something that I can't have. (Or conversely I have to do something I > > >don't want to do.) And no one can help me deal with THAT moment. It's > so easy to change my mind at that moment, and so difficult to keep making > the decision to change, over and over.> > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 1999 Report Share Posted July 10, 1999 I don't think it is easy for most of us to make a decision to leave AA and stick with it and not feel haunted by all the stuff we've learned and the attitudes of the people, both in and out of AA, who believe we've made the wrong decision. I know it wasn't for me. I think the decision is further in the past for some of us than for others, and it certainly becomes easier with time. But I myself am still troubled by old programming coming back. If I sound different in my posts, it may be for many reasons -- I'm trying to shore up my resolve, or I'm just so relieved for a few minutes to be in a place where people agree with me. It might be that most people out of the program would agree with me if they knew how AA operates, especially since tx centers entered the picture. But most people don't know this, and I'm not willing to discuss that part of my life with them, because I don't want to revisit it and because I don't want to tell people I was in AA, any more than I would tell them I was in therapy of any kind, or that I had cancer surgery, or whatever. There are lots of things you just don't share with everyone you run into. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5609 > I'm not sure, Carol. I have done it before. But right now, it seems like I > am up against some very old beliefs about why it's wrong for me to control > my life. > > *It will make someone else feel bad. > *Something terrible will happen. I will be punished for it. I *deserve* to > be punished for it. > *No one will love me if I'm " selfish. " > *It will prove what a bad person I am. > > I've been reading what people write here and in another list I read, the > Smart Recovery mailing list. It helps to apply REBT concepts to these > beliefs, but it doesn't happen quickly, at least not for me. And I'm > committed to doing this--becoming sober, regaining control of my life--for > MYSELF, in a way that works for ME. > > When I read what I just wrote, it sounds kind of weasley, like I'm trying to > avoid responsibility for my behavior. I'm really impressed by the strength > of people's convictions here, that people can just make a decision and stick > with it. And I wonder why it doesn't seem that easy for me. > > But it doesn't matter how easy or difficult it is for someone else. > Comparison becomes an excuse: " well, it was easy for him/her, but it's hard > for me, so I guess that means I'm not meant to be in control of my life. My > mother/ teacher/ boss was right. " > > I think that, in the long run, the answer to your question is: yes, I can > make that decision and stick with it. I can make the same decision over and > over until it becomes a habit. > > Judith > > > > > Do you think you can make that decision and not change your mind? > > > > Carol > > > [at some point I, Judith, wrote:] > > >It seems like, with any effort at directed change (like quitting a > habit), there comes that moment when I just have to face that I want > something that I can't have. (Or conversely I have to do something I > > >don't want to do.) And no one can help me deal with THAT moment. It's > so easy to change my mind at that moment, and so difficult to keep making > the decision to change, over and over.> > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 1999 Report Share Posted July 10, 1999 Dear , Please don't feel bad because you are feeling bad. I think most people would feel exactly as you do under the circumstances you describe. It would be an awful thing to happen at any time, but particularly devastating right before what you were looking forward to what you expected to be the most joyous occasion of your life. Employers and the like, or perhaps emotionally disturbed people, may think you should be over grief in 3 months (or 3 days!), but I am sure it can take much more time than that. It is not only that an essential person in your life is missing, but also one that was so much younger, and it's much harder when you know they had all their life before them. Not only that, you were a surrogate mother. Is any death harder to bear than the death of a child? Please do see a grief counselor. I am sure you will find that your feelings are not unusual. <7m7v6t$lo5-egroups> wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5619 > Judith: > > Your second asterisk here really caught my eye. I am exactly there. > > When I met my fiance, I always had the feeling that we would never get > married. I didn't deserve him. His ex accused me of breaking up their > marriage. I didn not deserve to be happy, ever. Not true, but there > was always the the thought that I would be punished; that I was being > very bad. Three days before our wedding, his favorite son was killed. > That was three months ago tomorrow. Ever since then I have been > throught hell. I got exactly what I deserved, didn't I? My fiance is > devastated and it was my fault. We'll never get married because he was > flying down to make our wedding cake and stand up with his dad and > there are too many memories attached to Nick's death and us getting > married to EVER get married. IT will never be a happy occasion. > > I know some of this isn't true, but the thoughts are RIGHT THERE ALL > THE TIME. > > I am calling a grief counselor first thing Monday. I have the > self-destuctive thoughts that will kill me if I don't do something > immediately. > > Judith, take care of working on those thoughts as soon as you feel able > to. Cognitive therapy is what it's called. If the grief counseling > doesn't work, that's where I'm heading. > > Love, > > > > wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5609 > > I'm not sure, Carol. I have done it before. But right now, it seems > like I > > am up against some very old beliefs about why it's wrong for me to > control > > my life. > > > > *It will make someone else feel bad. > > *Something terrible will happen. I will be punished for it. I > *deserve* to > > be punished for it. > > *No one will love me if I'm " selfish. " > > *It will prove what a bad person I am. > > > > I've been reading what people write here and in another list I read, > the > > Smart Recovery mailing list. It helps to apply REBT concepts to these > > beliefs, but it doesn't happen quickly, at least not for me. And I'm > > committed to doing this--becoming sober, regaining control of my > life--for > > MYSELF, in a way that works for ME. > > > > When I read what I just wrote, it sounds kind of weasley, like I'm > trying to > > avoid responsibility for my behavior. I'm really impressed by the > strength > > of people's convictions here, that people can just make a decision > and stick > > with it. And I wonder why it doesn't seem that easy for me. > > > > But it doesn't matter how easy or difficult it is for someone else. > > Comparison becomes an excuse: " well, it was easy for him/her, but > it's hard > > for me, so I guess that means I'm not meant to be in control of my > life. My > > mother/ teacher/ boss was right. " > > > > I think that, in the long run, the answer to your question is: yes, I > can > > make that decision and stick with it. I can make the same decision > over and > > over until it becomes a habit. > > > > Judith > > > > > > > > > Do you think you can make that decision and not change your mind? > > > > > > Carol > > > > > [at some point I, Judith, wrote:] > > > >It seems like, with any effort at directed change (like quitting a > > habit), there comes that moment when I just have to face that I want > > something that I can't have. (Or conversely I have to do something I > > > >don't want to do.) And no one can help me deal with THAT moment. > It's > > so easy to change my mind at that moment, and so difficult to keep > making > > the decision to change, over and over.> > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > > Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 1999 Report Share Posted July 10, 1999 Dear , Please don't feel bad because you are feeling bad. I think most people would feel exactly as you do under the circumstances you describe. It would be an awful thing to happen at any time, but particularly devastating right before what you were looking forward to what you expected to be the most joyous occasion of your life. Employers and the like, or perhaps emotionally disturbed people, may think you should be over grief in 3 months (or 3 days!), but I am sure it can take much more time than that. It is not only that an essential person in your life is missing, but also one that was so much younger, and it's much harder when you know they had all their life before them. Not only that, you were a surrogate mother. Is any death harder to bear than the death of a child? Please do see a grief counselor. I am sure you will find that your feelings are not unusual. <7m7v6t$lo5-egroups> wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5619 > Judith: > > Your second asterisk here really caught my eye. I am exactly there. > > When I met my fiance, I always had the feeling that we would never get > married. I didn't deserve him. His ex accused me of breaking up their > marriage. I didn not deserve to be happy, ever. Not true, but there > was always the the thought that I would be punished; that I was being > very bad. Three days before our wedding, his favorite son was killed. > That was three months ago tomorrow. Ever since then I have been > throught hell. I got exactly what I deserved, didn't I? My fiance is > devastated and it was my fault. We'll never get married because he was > flying down to make our wedding cake and stand up with his dad and > there are too many memories attached to Nick's death and us getting > married to EVER get married. IT will never be a happy occasion. > > I know some of this isn't true, but the thoughts are RIGHT THERE ALL > THE TIME. > > I am calling a grief counselor first thing Monday. I have the > self-destuctive thoughts that will kill me if I don't do something > immediately. > > Judith, take care of working on those thoughts as soon as you feel able > to. Cognitive therapy is what it's called. If the grief counseling > doesn't work, that's where I'm heading. > > Love, > > > > wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5609 > > I'm not sure, Carol. I have done it before. But right now, it seems > like I > > am up against some very old beliefs about why it's wrong for me to > control > > my life. > > > > *It will make someone else feel bad. > > *Something terrible will happen. I will be punished for it. I > *deserve* to > > be punished for it. > > *No one will love me if I'm " selfish. " > > *It will prove what a bad person I am. > > > > I've been reading what people write here and in another list I read, > the > > Smart Recovery mailing list. It helps to apply REBT concepts to these > > beliefs, but it doesn't happen quickly, at least not for me. And I'm > > committed to doing this--becoming sober, regaining control of my > life--for > > MYSELF, in a way that works for ME. > > > > When I read what I just wrote, it sounds kind of weasley, like I'm > trying to > > avoid responsibility for my behavior. I'm really impressed by the > strength > > of people's convictions here, that people can just make a decision > and stick > > with it. And I wonder why it doesn't seem that easy for me. > > > > But it doesn't matter how easy or difficult it is for someone else. > > Comparison becomes an excuse: " well, it was easy for him/her, but > it's hard > > for me, so I guess that means I'm not meant to be in control of my > life. My > > mother/ teacher/ boss was right. " > > > > I think that, in the long run, the answer to your question is: yes, I > can > > make that decision and stick with it. I can make the same decision > over and > > over until it becomes a habit. > > > > Judith > > > > > > > > > Do you think you can make that decision and not change your mind? > > > > > > Carol > > > > > [at some point I, Judith, wrote:] > > > >It seems like, with any effort at directed change (like quitting a > > habit), there comes that moment when I just have to face that I want > > something that I can't have. (Or conversely I have to do something I > > > >don't want to do.) And no one can help me deal with THAT moment. > It's > > so easy to change my mind at that moment, and so difficult to keep > making > > the decision to change, over and over.> > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > > Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 1999 Report Share Posted July 10, 1999 Hi Judith: I have some guesses on " why it doesn't seem so easy " (to make a decision without second guessing oneself). for me, it is becoming easier & easier the longer I stay away from AA. I think that factors which contributed to my lack of trust in my own perceptions was prolonged exposure to an AA group, as well as the traditional authoritarian childrearing which came before it. I came from an old-world European home. The benevolent dictatorship form of child rearing really gets children ready to go out into the world & obey. But the people in the real world I met were not so benevolent. A great book I read not long ago is called " For Your Own Good - Hidden Cruelty in Traditional Childrearing Methods " by Alice . She traces the childhoods of Hitler, a heroin addict and a murderer. It's fascinating. The authoritarian childrearing aspect is just a small part of it. Furthermore, in our modern culture, there are many things that seek to undermine our belief in ourselves. For example, if I think I'm nice looking, how can the big companies sell me diet pills, cosmetics, fashionable clothing etc. If I'm satisfied with what I have, how can they sell me a new car, a bigger TV, etc. I learned that ultimately, my perceptions are working just fine, they had just gotten a little rusty from lack of use. I'm still not 100% there, but today I'm more likely to know that if I smell shit, and someone tells me it's really roses that I'm smelling, I tell 'em, " OK, you step on it first " . Apple > When I read what I just wrote, it sounds kind of weasley, like I'm trying to > avoid responsibility for my behavior. I'm really impressed by the strength > of people's convictions here, that people can just make a decision and stick > with it. And I wonder why it doesn't seem that easy for me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 1999 Report Share Posted July 10, 1999 At 05:16 PM 7/10/99 EDT, you wrote: >I think this is possibly where I am the last few days.....as I said in a past >post this week, I feel " safe " here but still yet I will proceed with caution. >It does feel good to be agreeing about the disagreeable(meaning, what I have >been disagreeing with, AA programming....Do it or Drink and Die) >It was by totally giving all I was to AA that I lost who I am finding again. >So, therefore, no one need know every detail of someone else's life or heart >totally. Life's ground is just too uncertain whatever one is involved in. And >I have to remember there are wolves in sheeps clothing behind some computers, >as well as there were behind coffee cups in AA. >Leigh Hi! yes, I think all of that makes sense. There is no group that is easily accessible that can be considered totally safe- there are even warnings given out to subscribers here that anything said here cannot be considered confidential simply by the nature of the medium. Here's an example- I accidentally sent my phone number out on this list today. So I'm getting a new phone number. I know that many of the people who purport to use the 12 steps who I have seen on the net do not have scruples about who they hurt- it is as if there was some crazy system where if you get abused in AA or NA, you still shouldn't be allowed to talk about it in case anyone gets put off the idea of joining. But that is the whole point! And of course that idea depends on the idea that nothbg else effective exists. Both totally wrong, of course. But yes, being careful is a good idea. Its commonsense really. In the 12 step programs we are encouraged to not have any secrets. Just another black and white idea that has no healthy application in real life- maybe in a cult though it would have some point. There is that saying " You're as sick as your secrets " . Actually no, you're as sick as your behaviour. Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 1999 Report Share Posted July 10, 1999 At 05:16 PM 7/10/99 EDT, you wrote: >I think this is possibly where I am the last few days.....as I said in a past >post this week, I feel " safe " here but still yet I will proceed with caution. >It does feel good to be agreeing about the disagreeable(meaning, what I have >been disagreeing with, AA programming....Do it or Drink and Die) >It was by totally giving all I was to AA that I lost who I am finding again. >So, therefore, no one need know every detail of someone else's life or heart >totally. Life's ground is just too uncertain whatever one is involved in. And >I have to remember there are wolves in sheeps clothing behind some computers, >as well as there were behind coffee cups in AA. >Leigh Hi! yes, I think all of that makes sense. There is no group that is easily accessible that can be considered totally safe- there are even warnings given out to subscribers here that anything said here cannot be considered confidential simply by the nature of the medium. Here's an example- I accidentally sent my phone number out on this list today. So I'm getting a new phone number. I know that many of the people who purport to use the 12 steps who I have seen on the net do not have scruples about who they hurt- it is as if there was some crazy system where if you get abused in AA or NA, you still shouldn't be allowed to talk about it in case anyone gets put off the idea of joining. But that is the whole point! And of course that idea depends on the idea that nothbg else effective exists. Both totally wrong, of course. But yes, being careful is a good idea. Its commonsense really. In the 12 step programs we are encouraged to not have any secrets. Just another black and white idea that has no healthy application in real life- maybe in a cult though it would have some point. There is that saying " You're as sick as your secrets " . Actually no, you're as sick as your behaviour. Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 1999 Report Share Posted July 11, 1999 Hi Kayleigh, I'm with you on this one. When I was a newcomer (babe in the woods in AA), I heard that from the women who befriended me and my first sponsor. I told her a few things I wish I hadn't now. Learned she had a big mouth and was a gossip and relapsed regularly. Lord only knows what the groups knew about me. Nothing illegal, but still, nothing I wanted everyone to know. I look back know and see that it's a ploy to, once again, make you vulnerable. And it's another slogan that modern AA has adopted in its program. Bill suggested going to psychiatrists or the clergy for the 5th step. AA now wants us to expose ourselves to everyone in the program in group discussion. Every problem in our lives is to be hashed over and solved in the membership. My husband got his child rearing tips from people that had been drunk or using when raising their kids and his financial problems he went to a man who still in his sobriety, screws people in business. Jan Re: Psychobabble,anyone? >I think that stupid saying about secrets is sicker than any secrets >anyone might have. Any self-protective person has secrets. I remember >when I was in treatment how much pressure was put on us to " tell our >secrets " so we wouldn't be sick. It was amazing the number of people >who streamed in to their counselors and said they had slept with >so-and-so, or whatever. > >I remember fiercely hanging on to the part of myself that I didn't need >to share with other people, and how guilty they made me feel for doing >it. At the same time I knew that if I mentioned the secret stuff to >anyone at all, they would probably rat me out because they were feeling >just as guilty, or more so, than I was. They didn't want to be >burdened with someone else's secrets. > >And when you get right down to it, the secrets at issue were so damn >harmless. Just things that I wanted to keep private. No sins, no >crimes. > > wrote: >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5643 >> At 05:16 PM 7/10/99 EDT, you wrote: >> >I think this is possibly where I am the last few days.....as I said >in a >> past >> >post this week, I feel " safe " here but still yet I will proceed with >> caution. >> >It does feel good to be agreeing about the disagreeable(meaning, >what I have >> >been disagreeing with, AA programming....Do it or Drink and Die) >> >It was by totally giving all I was to AA that I lost who I am >finding again. >> >So, therefore, no one need know every detail of someone else's life >or heart >> >totally. Life's ground is just too uncertain whatever one is >involved in. >> And >> >I have to remember there are wolves in sheeps clothing behind some >> computers, >> >as well as there were behind coffee cups in AA. >> >Leigh >> >> Hi! yes, I think all of that makes sense. There is no group that is >easily >> accessible that can be considered totally safe- there are even >warnings >> given out to subscribers here that anything said here cannot be >considered >> confidential simply by the nature of the medium. Here's an example- I >> accidentally sent my phone number out on this list today. So I'm >getting a >> new phone number. I know that many of the people who purport to use >the 12 >> steps who I have seen on the net do not have scruples about who they >hurt- >> it is as if there was some crazy system where if you get abused in AA >or >> NA, you still shouldn't be allowed to talk about it in case anyone >gets put >> off the idea of joining. But that is the whole point! And of course >that >> idea depends on the idea that nothbg else effective exists. Both >totally >> wrong, of course. But yes, being careful is a good idea. Its >commonsense >> really. In the 12 step programs we are encouraged to not have any >secrets. >> Just another black and white idea that has no healthy application in >real >> life- maybe in a cult though it would have some point. There is that >saying >> " You're as sick as your secrets " . Actually no, you're as sick as your >> behaviour. >> Joe Berenbaum >> mailto:joe-b@... >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >FREE !! DOWNLOAD NOW !! >Interactive Sexy Girl Cartoon Character for Windows. >http://clickhere./click/456 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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