Guest guest Posted July 11, 1999 Report Share Posted July 11, 1999 Hi Kayleigh, I'm with you on this one. When I was a newcomer (babe in the woods in AA), I heard that from the women who befriended me and my first sponsor. I told her a few things I wish I hadn't now. Learned she had a big mouth and was a gossip and relapsed regularly. Lord only knows what the groups knew about me. Nothing illegal, but still, nothing I wanted everyone to know. I look back know and see that it's a ploy to, once again, make you vulnerable. And it's another slogan that modern AA has adopted in its program. Bill suggested going to psychiatrists or the clergy for the 5th step. AA now wants us to expose ourselves to everyone in the program in group discussion. Every problem in our lives is to be hashed over and solved in the membership. My husband got his child rearing tips from people that had been drunk or using when raising their kids and his financial problems he went to a man who still in his sobriety, screws people in business. Jan Re: Psychobabble,anyone? >I think that stupid saying about secrets is sicker than any secrets >anyone might have. Any self-protective person has secrets. I remember >when I was in treatment how much pressure was put on us to " tell our >secrets " so we wouldn't be sick. It was amazing the number of people >who streamed in to their counselors and said they had slept with >so-and-so, or whatever. > >I remember fiercely hanging on to the part of myself that I didn't need >to share with other people, and how guilty they made me feel for doing >it. At the same time I knew that if I mentioned the secret stuff to >anyone at all, they would probably rat me out because they were feeling >just as guilty, or more so, than I was. They didn't want to be >burdened with someone else's secrets. > >And when you get right down to it, the secrets at issue were so damn >harmless. Just things that I wanted to keep private. No sins, no >crimes. > > wrote: >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5643 >> At 05:16 PM 7/10/99 EDT, you wrote: >> >I think this is possibly where I am the last few days.....as I said >in a >> past >> >post this week, I feel " safe " here but still yet I will proceed with >> caution. >> >It does feel good to be agreeing about the disagreeable(meaning, >what I have >> >been disagreeing with, AA programming....Do it or Drink and Die) >> >It was by totally giving all I was to AA that I lost who I am >finding again. >> >So, therefore, no one need know every detail of someone else's life >or heart >> >totally. Life's ground is just too uncertain whatever one is >involved in. >> And >> >I have to remember there are wolves in sheeps clothing behind some >> computers, >> >as well as there were behind coffee cups in AA. >> >Leigh >> >> Hi! yes, I think all of that makes sense. There is no group that is >easily >> accessible that can be considered totally safe- there are even >warnings >> given out to subscribers here that anything said here cannot be >considered >> confidential simply by the nature of the medium. Here's an example- I >> accidentally sent my phone number out on this list today. So I'm >getting a >> new phone number. I know that many of the people who purport to use >the 12 >> steps who I have seen on the net do not have scruples about who they >hurt- >> it is as if there was some crazy system where if you get abused in AA >or >> NA, you still shouldn't be allowed to talk about it in case anyone >gets put >> off the idea of joining. But that is the whole point! And of course >that >> idea depends on the idea that nothbg else effective exists. Both >totally >> wrong, of course. But yes, being careful is a good idea. Its >commonsense >> really. In the 12 step programs we are encouraged to not have any >secrets. >> Just another black and white idea that has no healthy application in >real >> life- maybe in a cult though it would have some point. There is that >saying >> " You're as sick as your secrets " . Actually no, you're as sick as your >> behaviour. >> Joe Berenbaum >> mailto:joe-b@... >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >FREE !! DOWNLOAD NOW !! >Interactive Sexy Girl Cartoon Character for Windows. >http://clickhere./click/456 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 1999 Report Share Posted July 12, 1999 Joe, Leigh: I share the same fear about the computer in sheep's clothing. I must be a different sort-Joe, when I saw your number posted, it never occurred to me that it was not a good idea. I thought that it was none of my business; that is was a posting meant for someone else and went on to read the next posting. A lot of people aren't like that. Leigh, We don't know each other, but we have some experiences in common and we are human beings who are searching for answers. NO one is pushing or forcing you, but if you can find something you need here-that's great. There are stalkers and pervs out there and sometimes you can't feel very safe, but I think there is a lot of good information here. Just take what you need...oh god, I sound like I'm at a meeting !!!! I hope you understand what I'm trying to explain here. Sometimes I'm not so good at it! > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Psychobabble,anyone? >Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 01:03:32 +0100 > >At 05:16 PM 7/10/99 EDT, you wrote: > >I think this is possibly where I am the last few days.....as I said in a >past > >post this week, I feel " safe " here but still yet I will proceed with >caution. > >It does feel good to be agreeing about the disagreeable(meaning, what I >have > >been disagreeing with, AA programming....Do it or Drink and Die) > >It was by totally giving all I was to AA that I lost who I am finding >again. > >So, therefore, no one need know every detail of someone else's life or >heart > >totally. Life's ground is just too uncertain whatever one is involved in. >And > >I have to remember there are wolves in sheeps clothing behind some >computers, > >as well as there were behind coffee cups in AA. > >Leigh > >Hi! yes, I think all of that makes sense. There is no group that is easily >accessible that can be considered totally safe- there are even warnings >given out to subscribers here that anything said here cannot be considered >confidential simply by the nature of the medium. Here's an example- I >accidentally sent my phone number out on this list today. So I'm getting a >new phone number. I know that many of the people who purport to use the 12 >steps who I have seen on the net do not have scruples about who they hurt- >it is as if there was some crazy system where if you get abused in AA or >NA, you still shouldn't be allowed to talk about it in case anyone gets put >off the idea of joining. But that is the whole point! And of course that >idea depends on the idea that nothbg else effective exists. Both totally >wrong, of course. But yes, being careful is a good idea. Its commonsense >really. In the 12 step programs we are encouraged to not have any secrets. >Just another black and white idea that has no healthy application in real >life- maybe in a cult though it would have some point. There is that saying > " You're as sick as your secrets " . Actually no, you're as sick as your >behaviour. >Joe Berenbaum >mailto:joe-b@... > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Be as loud as you want >Get free email and 20MB of webspace at FortuneCity.com >http://clickhere./click/367 > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 1999 Report Share Posted July 12, 1999 Thanks, Kayleigh! I really appreciate your encouragement and support. This is the first time I have ever lost anyone so close and I refuse to allow this to take me down. I've already made the phone calls and am in the process of making certain my insurance papers are in order at this point. I am very lucky to have a family that is supportive as well as the people here. Thank you VERY much! Love, <7m8e69$tqa-egroups> wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5636 > Dear , > > Please don't feel bad because you are feeling bad. I think most people > would feel exactly as you do under the circumstances you describe. It > would be an awful thing to happen at any time, but particularly > devastating right before what you were looking forward to what you > expected to be the most joyous occasion of your life. > > Employers and the like, or perhaps emotionally disturbed people, may > think you should be over grief in 3 months (or 3 days!), but I am sure > it can take much more time than that. It is not only that an essential > person in your life is missing, but also one that was so much younger, > and it's much harder when you know they had all their life before them. > Not only that, you were a surrogate mother. Is any death harder to > bear than the death of a child? > > Please do see a grief counselor. I am sure you will find that your > feelings are not unusual. > > <7m7v6t$lo5-egroups> wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5619 > > Judith: > > > > Your second asterisk here really caught my eye. I am exactly there. > > > > When I met my fiance, I always had the feeling that we would never get > > married. I didn't deserve him. His ex accused me of breaking up > their > > marriage. I didn not deserve to be happy, ever. Not true, but there > > was always the the thought that I would be punished; that I was being > > very bad. Three days before our wedding, his favorite son was > killed. > > That was three months ago tomorrow. Ever since then I have been > > throught hell. I got exactly what I deserved, didn't I? My fiance is > > devastated and it was my fault. We'll never get married because he > was > > flying down to make our wedding cake and stand up with his dad and > > there are too many memories attached to Nick's death and us getting > > married to EVER get married. IT will never be a happy occasion. > > > > I know some of this isn't true, but the thoughts are RIGHT THERE ALL > > THE TIME. > > > > I am calling a grief counselor first thing Monday. I have the > > self-destuctive thoughts that will kill me if I don't do something > > immediately. > > > > Judith, take care of working on those thoughts as soon as you feel > able > > to. Cognitive therapy is what it's called. If the grief counseling > > doesn't work, that's where I'm heading. > > > > Love, > > > > > > > > wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5 609 > > > I'm not sure, Carol. I have done it before. But right now, it > seems > > like I > > > am up against some very old beliefs about why it's wrong for me to > > control > > > my life. > > > > > > *It will make someone else feel bad. > > > *Something terrible will happen. I will be punished for it. I > > *deserve* to > > > be punished for it. > > > *No one will love me if I'm " selfish. " > > > *It will prove what a bad person I am. > > > > > > I've been reading what people write here and in another list I read, > > the > > > Smart Recovery mailing list. It helps to apply REBT concepts to > these > > > beliefs, but it doesn't happen quickly, at least not for me. And > I'm > > > committed to doing this--becoming sober, regaining control of my > > life--for > > > MYSELF, in a way that works for ME. > > > > > > When I read what I just wrote, it sounds kind of weasley, like I'm > > trying to > > > avoid responsibility for my behavior. I'm really impressed by the > > strength > > > of people's convictions here, that people can just make a decision > > and stick > > > with it. And I wonder why it doesn't seem that easy for me. > > > > > > But it doesn't matter how easy or difficult it is for someone else. > > > Comparison becomes an excuse: " well, it was easy for him/her, but > > it's hard > > > for me, so I guess that means I'm not meant to be in control of my > > life. My > > > mother/ teacher/ boss was right. " > > > > > > I think that, in the long run, the answer to your question is: yes, > I > > can > > > make that decision and stick with it. I can make the same decision > > over and > > > over until it becomes a habit. > > > > > > Judith > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you think you can make that decision and not change your mind? > > > > > > > > Carol > > > > > > > [at some point I, Judith, wrote:] > > > > >It seems like, with any effort at directed change (like quitting > a > > > habit), there comes that moment when I just have to face that I want > > > something that I can't have. (Or conversely I have to do something > I > > > > >don't want to do.) And no one can help me deal with THAT > moment. > > It's > > > so easy to change my mind at that moment, and so difficult to keep > > making > > > the decision to change, over and over.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > > > Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 1999 Report Share Posted July 12, 1999 In a message dated 7/12/99 4:38:54 PM Central Daylight Time, wrose2@... writes: << Joe, Leigh: I share the same fear about the computer in sheep's clothing. I must be a different sort-Joe, when I saw your number posted, it never occurred to me that it was not a good idea. I thought that it was none of my business; that is was a posting meant for someone else and went on to read the next posting. A lot of people aren't like that. Leigh, We don't know each other, but we have some experiences in common and we are human beings who are searching for answers. NO one is pushing or forcing you, but if you can find something you need here-that's great. There are stalkers and pervs out there and sometimes you can't feel very safe, but I think there is a lot of good information here. Just take what you need...oh god, I sound like I'm at a meeting !!!! I hope you understand what I'm trying to explain here. Sometimes I'm not so good at it! >> Thankyou , I do understand, and I don't feel like I am at a meeting. ) I only take what I need at a buffet meal as well. That is why I am still reading and posting here. I also appreciate your comments. Leigh ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 1999 Report Share Posted July 12, 1999 Hi ; Grief takes as long as it takes. Nothing prepares one for death. Lady I lived with got lung cancer, terminal when it was discovered. After a couple of months of chemo she decided to quit and enjoy what she had left. She lived about 7 months. I took care of her during this time, I seemed to be able to atay sober in a for real crisis. The night she died, all the knowing it was coming didn't mean shit. I ran on auto pilot and drunk for three or four months. I met Rose during that time and she had lost hers to a heart attack. We were both to the place no one wanted to hear it anymore, but we weren't done talking about it. We both did everything wrong, but we got through. We met in Sept, got married in Nov, but I don't think the grief was really resolved till a year or so after we were married. Point is it did get resolved, with time. Statistically I suppose Rose and I were doomed to divorce, we just didn't know it. No changes for the first year, Right! We were running into major changes every month. I don't recomend it, but we survived it. I agree when it's a young person it's worse. The natural order of things is bacwards, he was supposed to outlive you, not the other way around. Grief counselling couldn't hurt and sure might help. Take good care of yourself . ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 1999 Report Share Posted July 12, 1999 Hi Leigh! This is a banquet compared to an AA meeting!!!!! An oasis in the desert....! I sure don't miss those smoke-filled rooms, people with their egos hanging out all over and trying to be civil to people I couldn't stand because they were a " brother " or a " sister " . Then, there were the cliques, the gurus, the self-appointed " leaders " , retreads, crybabies, talkers, etc., etc. How many times I thought to myself during those years that I felt I was trying to bend a metal rod with my bare hands. I was trying so hard to make myself fit and conform to the " AA Way of Life " , and it never fit. I'm sure glad I know why now! Love, >From: Marandtaz@... >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Psychobabble,anyone? >Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:16:17 EDT > >In a message dated 7/12/99 4:38:54 PM Central Daylight Time, >wrose2@... writes: > ><< Joe, Leigh: > > I share the same fear about the computer in sheep's clothing. I must be >a > different sort-Joe, when I saw your number posted, it never occurred to >me > that it was not a good idea. I thought that it was none of my business; > that is was a posting meant for someone else and went on to read the next > posting. A lot of people aren't like that. > > Leigh, > > We don't know each other, but we have some experiences in common and we >are > human beings who are searching for answers. NO one is pushing or forcing > you, but if you can find something you need here-that's great. There are > stalkers and pervs out there and sometimes you can't feel very safe, but >I > think there is a lot of good information here. Just take what you >need...oh > god, I sound like I'm at a meeting !!!! > > I hope you understand what I'm trying to explain here. Sometimes I'm not >so > good at it! > > >> >Thankyou , >I do understand, and I don't feel like I am at a meeting. ) >I only take what I need at a buffet meal as well. >That is why I am still reading and posting here. >I also appreciate your comments. >Leigh > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Be as loud as you want >Get free email and 20MB of webspace at FortuneCity.com >http://clickhere./click/367 > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 1999 Report Share Posted July 13, 1999 Hi . Things have been a little rough. So many things similar to 3 months ago. Nick died on Sunday, the 11th. July 11 was Sunday. Today, Charlie and I would have been married for three months. I went out for a walk last night. So many times I can't turn my brain off. I hate that SO MUCH! I wish I could put things away and stop screwing myself into the ground. My ex married into money. Right now he's in Hawaii on his honeymoon-he had to call and rub that in a few days ago. All the savings and other assets I had went into trying to get custody of my daughter- almonst $30K. I feel like I worked hard all my life for what? Only to be pretty much destitute if anything happens to Charlie. I won't even have a place to live. (That's another story) I would lose the house even if I did marry Charlie. Guess it doesn't matter. There is a lot more personal stuff going on that I prefer not to post. All the savings and insurance and stocks are gone-thanks to the drug addict-not to mention abusing my credit so badly I doubt if I will ever be able to mend it. It's really hard to keep going these days. I called about grief therapy and the place my doctor referred me to won't even accept my insurance. I have to find somewhere else. You know how it is when you are down. It's hard enough to move, let along deal with any snags along the way. Maybe I'll go out at lunch and buy myself some flowers. Thanks for listening. Love, > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Psychobabble,anyone? >Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:46:26 -0600 > >Hi ; > >Grief takes as long as it takes. Nothing prepares one for death. >Lady I lived with got lung cancer, terminal when it was discovered. >After a couple of months of chemo she decided to quit and enjoy >what she had left. She lived about 7 months. I took care of her >during this time, I seemed to be able to atay sober in a for real >crisis. The night she died, all the knowing it was coming didn't >mean shit. > >I ran on auto pilot and drunk for three or four months. I met Rose >during that time and she had lost hers to a heart attack. We were >both to the place no one wanted to hear it anymore, but we weren't >done talking about it. We both did everything wrong, but we got >through. We met in Sept, got married in Nov, but I don't think the >grief was really resolved till a year or so after we were married. > >Point is it did get resolved, with time. Statistically I suppose Rose >and I were doomed to divorce, we just didn't know it. No changes >for the first year, Right! We were running into major changes every >month. I don't recomend it, but we survived it. > >I agree when it's a young person it's worse. The natural order of >things is bacwards, he was supposed to outlive you, not the other >way around. > >Grief counselling couldn't hurt and sure might help. > >Take good care of yourself . > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >eGroups Spotlight: > " Men's Studies Discussion " - An intelligent and >informal discussion of men's issues and men's studies. >http://clickhere./click/116 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 1999 Report Share Posted July 14, 1999 Somewhere, somehow, in this big universe there has to be a place where justice is served. Where people like your ex and your childhood abuser have to face up to what they did and how it affected people like you. My strongest hope is that you will get through this. And that it won't kill your spirit. Jan Re: Psychobabble,anyone? >>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:46:26 -0600 >> >>Hi ; >> >>Grief takes as long as it takes. Nothing prepares one for death. >>Lady I lived with got lung cancer, terminal when it was discovered. >>After a couple of months of chemo she decided to quit and enjoy >>what she had left. She lived about 7 months. I took care of her >>during this time, I seemed to be able to atay sober in a for real >>crisis. The night she died, all the knowing it was coming didn't >>mean shit. >> >>I ran on auto pilot and drunk for three or four months. I met Rose >>during that time and she had lost hers to a heart attack. We were >>both to the place no one wanted to hear it anymore, but we weren't >>done talking about it. We both did everything wrong, but we got >>through. We met in Sept, got married in Nov, but I don't think the >>grief was really resolved till a year or so after we were married. >> >>Point is it did get resolved, with time. Statistically I suppose Rose >>and I were doomed to divorce, we just didn't know it. No changes >>for the first year, Right! We were running into major changes every >>month. I don't recomend it, but we survived it. >> >>I agree when it's a young person it's worse. The natural order of >>things is bacwards, he was supposed to outlive you, not the other >>way around. >> >>Grief counselling couldn't hurt and sure might help. >> >>Take good care of yourself . >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>eGroups Spotlight: >> " Men's Studies Discussion " - An intelligent and >>informal discussion of men's issues and men's studies. >>http://clickhere./click/116 >> >> >>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> - Simplifying group communications >> >> >> >> > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Don't let the next virus knock you out! Special Offer to eGroups members >Install @Backup by June 30th and win a $100 Gift Certificate from Amazon >.com and @Backup free for a year! http://clickhere./click/363 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 1999 Report Share Posted July 14, 1999 Somewhere, somehow, in this big universe there has to be a place where justice is served. Where people like your ex and your childhood abuser have to face up to what they did and how it affected people like you. My strongest hope is that you will get through this. And that it won't kill your spirit. Jan Re: Psychobabble,anyone? >>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:46:26 -0600 >> >>Hi ; >> >>Grief takes as long as it takes. Nothing prepares one for death. >>Lady I lived with got lung cancer, terminal when it was discovered. >>After a couple of months of chemo she decided to quit and enjoy >>what she had left. She lived about 7 months. I took care of her >>during this time, I seemed to be able to atay sober in a for real >>crisis. The night she died, all the knowing it was coming didn't >>mean shit. >> >>I ran on auto pilot and drunk for three or four months. I met Rose >>during that time and she had lost hers to a heart attack. We were >>both to the place no one wanted to hear it anymore, but we weren't >>done talking about it. We both did everything wrong, but we got >>through. We met in Sept, got married in Nov, but I don't think the >>grief was really resolved till a year or so after we were married. >> >>Point is it did get resolved, with time. Statistically I suppose Rose >>and I were doomed to divorce, we just didn't know it. No changes >>for the first year, Right! We were running into major changes every >>month. I don't recomend it, but we survived it. >> >>I agree when it's a young person it's worse. The natural order of >>things is bacwards, he was supposed to outlive you, not the other >>way around. >> >>Grief counselling couldn't hurt and sure might help. >> >>Take good care of yourself . >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>eGroups Spotlight: >> " Men's Studies Discussion " - An intelligent and >>informal discussion of men's issues and men's studies. >>http://clickhere./click/116 >> >> >>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> - Simplifying group communications >> >> >> >> > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Don't let the next virus knock you out! Special Offer to eGroups members >Install @Backup by June 30th and win a $100 Gift Certificate from Amazon >.com and @Backup free for a year! http://clickhere./click/363 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 Jen: Thanks for sharing that with me. I have so much anger towards AA for the guilt and shame they piled on the guilt and shame-and how many people try to deal with this same type of issue and end up in an institution or comitting suicide, because they " didn't work the steps right " . And if the person is institutionalized and comes out and goes back to meetings-there's more of it. When I was suing my abuser in '93-'94, I spent a short time in a hospital because I felt emotionally backed up against a wall. They had me on " suicide watch " . I was not " respected " in AA after that, despite the odds I was struggling with. No one visited me in the hospital-no cards, no phone calls. It's funny, because as I'm writing this-it is the first time I have admitted the fact that back that far-there was no support from AA. Come to think of it-there was very little physical support from those people-ever. Odd... When you were talking about squeezing your eyes shut it gave me chills. I used to do the same thing-try to pretend I was asleep; thinking he'd leave me alone. He didn't. For 5 years he terrorized me. There is so much damage. I cannot trust people, I have little survival mechanisms in place so firmly I can't budge them and I beat on myself incessantly. It is only when my partner tells me to stop, that I realize I'm doing it at all. There is also a part of my person that " goes up in a corner " and a very aggressive personality emerges. I can't call it multiple-but I don't know how it happens, but it happens when I am stressed. I get very aggressive and defensive and I don't remember what I say. It's a way of protecting myself that I don't need anymore, but don't know how to make it go away. My heart goes out to you-I HATE CHILDHOOD ROBBERS! I sincerely hope you can find peace. Love, >From: Javajenv@... >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Psychobabble,anyone? >Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:14:15 EDT > >Dear >When I was 11 years old, my parent made me take Amtrak to make the visits >between the two of them since they were divorced. During one trip I sat >next >to a guy who was mabey twenty years old. We chatted like people do on >trains >and he told me his name and what he was doing in college blah blah blah. I >fell asleep and woke up to him kissing the top of my head and stuffing his >hand down my shirt. I was to scared to open my eyes, so I pretended I was >still sleeping. I will never forget how I just had my eyes squeezed so >tight. >He got off the train on the next stop and I was so embarrassed I still did >not open my eyes. >Shame at such an early age is an awful thing. I have carried it my whole >life >and have been, unexplicably to myself ,in lots of similar situations. Lack >of >supervision was the biggest problem, I think. Any way, my first time ever >telling anyone that story was my first sponsor in AA. She asked me how I >could find the part I played in that.I don't think I need to tell you >anymore. The rest is history >I understand your pain >Jen > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. >Start with up to 150 Points for joining! >http://clickhere./click/475 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 EVERYBODY SHOULD DO GOOD THINGS FOR THEMSELVES! They are really pretty-coral and orange. I put them on the sink in the kitchen. I planted flowers in my garden, but they didn't come up (yet?) This is the first garden I've had, so I'm just learning. I gotta get regular with doing this stuff! Love, >From: Marandtaz@... >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Psychobabble,anyone? >Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:20:47 EDT > >In a message dated 7/15/99 9:25:18 AM Central Daylight Time, >WROSE2@... writes: > ><< PS-I did buy myself some flowers. >> >, >You go girl! Do it often! > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >eGroups Spotlight: > " R2-D2 Builders Club " - A list for those interested in building replicas > of R2-D2. >http://clickhere./click/528 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 Dear When I was 11 years old, my parent made me take Amtrak to make the visits between the two of them since they were divorced. During one trip I sat next to a guy who was mabey twenty years old. We chatted like people do on trains and he told me his name and what he was doing in college blah blah blah. I fell asleep and woke up to him kissing the top of my head and stuffing his hand down my shirt. I was to scared to open my eyes, so I pretended I was still sleeping. I will never forget how I just had my eyes squeezed so tight. He got off the train on the next stop and I was so embarrassed I still did not open my eyes. Shame at such an early age is an awful thing. I have carried it my whole life and have been, unexplicably to myself ,in lots of similar situations. Lack of supervision was the biggest problem, I think. Any way, my first time ever telling anyone that story was my first sponsor in AA. She asked me how I could find the part I played in that.I don't think I need to tell you anymore. The rest is history I understand your pain Jen ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 In a message dated 7/15/99 9:25:18 AM Central Daylight Time, WROSE2@... writes: << PS-I did buy myself some flowers. >> , You go girl! Do it often! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 Thanks for your thoughts, Jan. I deserve to be happy more than anything. We all do! I've suffered way too much-and a lot of it at my own hand. My fondest wish is to know that there IS justice. And my secret wish is to SEE it happen. I don't think my ex will ever be happy and I KNOW my abuser is living in shame. It's difficult living from day to day. Your words have made today a LOT easier! Love, PS-I did buy myself some flowers. <002e01bece58$19550a00$4214fed-@mrsy> wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5836 > Somewhere, somehow, in this big universe there has to be a place where > justice is served. Where people like your ex and your childhood abuser have > to face up to what they did and how it affected people like you. My > strongest hope is that you will get through this. And that it won't kill > your spirit. > > Jan > > > Re: Psychobabble,anyone? > >>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:46:26 -0600 > >> > >>Hi ; > >> > >>Grief takes as long as it takes. Nothing prepares one for death. > >>Lady I lived with got lung cancer, terminal when it was discovered. > >>After a couple of months of chemo she decided to quit and enjoy > >>what she had left. She lived about 7 months. I took care of her > >>during this time, I seemed to be able to atay sober in a for real > >>crisis. The night she died, all the knowing it was coming didn't > >>mean shit. > >> > >>I ran on auto pilot and drunk for three or four months. I met Rose > >>during that time and she had lost hers to a heart attack. We were > >>both to the place no one wanted to hear it anymore, but we weren't > >>done talking about it. We both did everything wrong, but we got > >>through. We met in Sept, got married in Nov, but I don't think the > >>grief was really resolved till a year or so after we were married. > >> > >>Point is it did get resolved, with time. Statistically I suppose Rose > >>and I were doomed to divorce, we just didn't know it. No changes > >>for the first year, Right! We were running into major changes every > >>month. I don't recomend it, but we survived it. > >> > >>I agree when it's a young person it's worse. The natural order of > >>things is bacwards, he was supposed to outlive you, not the other > >>way around. > >> > >>Grief counselling couldn't hurt and sure might help. > >> > >>Take good care of yourself . > >> > >> > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > >>eGroups Spotlight: > >> " Men's Studies Discussion " - An intelligent and > >>informal discussion of men's issues and men's studies. > >>http://clickhere./click/116 > >> > >> > >>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > >> - Simplifying group communications > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > >Don't let the next virus knock you out! Special Offer to eGroups members > >Install @Backup by June 30th and win a $100 Gift Certificate from Amazon > >.com and @Backup free for a year! http://clickhere./click /363 > > > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 your statements bring up another relative point. Since you can pretty much guess what someone in AA is going to give you for an answer , soon you stop sharing things with people that mean anything at all. You really do know what they are going to dispense as advise, plus you have all the slogans hammered into your mind, so why bother asking or saying anything at all. Thats pretty much what happened to my husband, he was just a walking time bomb of confusion and anger. I have named it " The Three Fingers Pointing Back At You " Syndrome Jen ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 In a message dated 7/15/99 2:14:43 PM Central Daylight Time, johnhollister@... writes: << I think. Any way, my first time ever telling anyone that story was my first sponsor in AA. She asked me how I could find the part I played in that. I don't think I need to tell you anymore. The rest is history I understand your pain Jen >> When I read this it triggered the second step in my head!!!! " Came to Believe that a power greater than ourselves..., " I had a sponsor who was very much like this. Everything painful thing I ever talked to her about, I was constantly grilled as to " MY " part in it! Now when I look back....I must have been really " Powerful " in my own right to be able to always take the shame and the blame for everything that went wrong. Never, was I asked, what I did " right " when the good things happened. I try to , recognize the Innocence of Ignorance, today. If one doesn't know the HOW and/or Why of something, how can one have a part in a circumstance like what you experienced other than being a victim! Leigh ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 In a message dated 7/15/99 12:42:37 PM Central Daylight Time, wrose2@... writes: << EVERYBODY SHOULD DO GOOD THINGS FOR THEMSELVES! >> You bet it is....I am still learning it is ok to do it too! But I know It feels good to give yourself flowers. Next Valentines day, I may send myself a box of candy too! ) Hugz Leigh ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 I think. Any way, my first time ever telling anyone that story was my first sponsor in AA. She asked me how I could find the part I played in that.I don't think I need to tell you anymore. The rest is history I understand your pain Jen Unreal! Just when I think I've seen the stupidest thing ever said by an AA sponsor, along comes another post that takes the cake. It is amazing how numbed their minds can become to their powers of reason. Looks like she didn't work step two thoroughly enough because no sane person could make such a statement, but it is however a standard operating procedure for an AA automaton. AA is a giant collective solely dedicated to expansion and survival. It asks no questions and just takes prisoners. Those held in it's grip have lost the ability to make social and moral distinctions. They interact purely on the basis of their program(programming) and as a result dispense data that has long since been predetermined their sponsor(data entry technician). In the same way we can predict a certain result when we point and click on our computers, we can also predict the response of the AA member. The more assimilated into the collective, the more predictable the response. I wonder why their antics even surprise me any more. Talk about unmanageable, those people are out of control! Actually they are totally controlled, which I think is the root of addiction. I'm not sure I can really be mad at AA when I equate it with the mindless entity that it has become. One thing I do get mad as hell at is the crap Jen and have been through and the insult to injury dished out to them by those fools who claim to hold such moral high ground. Javajenv@... wrote: > > Dear > When I was 11 years old, my parent made me take Amtrak to make the visits > between the two of them since they were divorced. During one trip I sat next > to a guy who was mabey twenty years old. We chatted like people do on trains > and he told me his name and what he was doing in college blah blah blah. I > fell asleep and woke up to him kissing the top of my head and stuffing his > hand down my shirt. I was to scared to open my eyes, so I pretended I was > still sleeping. I will never forget how I just had my eyes squeezed so tight. > He got off the train on the next stop and I was so embarrassed I still did > not open my eyes. > Shame at such an early age is an awful thing. I have carried it my whole life > and have been, unexplicably to myself ,in lots of similar situations. Lack of > supervision was the biggest problem, I think. Any way, my first time ever > telling anyone that story was my first sponsor in AA. She asked me how I > could find the part I played in that.I don't think I need to tell you > anymore. The rest is history > I understand your pain > Jen > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. > Start with up to 150 Points for joining! > http://clickhere./click/475 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 Hi ; At the library, get the book " The Joy of Gardening " . Can't recall the author's name though I corresponded with him a long time ago. He ran Truck Gardens in New England and all the stuff in his book works, I've tried nearly all of it. He used a lot of Companion plantings, using Marigolds, Nastusiums, Portulaca(Moss Rose) and so forth, so there is quite a lot of info on flowers as well as vegetables. I gardened heavily until I had the heart operation and running a tiller and weeding just got to be a little much. That book is well written and got me fired up and ready to go everytime I read out of it. Good luck with your flowers ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 I agree, Leigh. Tomorrow I am going to see the only friend I have that is still in AA get married. It's going to be a toughie, but I'm going because I haven't seen her in a couple of years and she was there for me so many times in the past. We live about 150 miles apart now and both have very busy lives. You know I was supposed to get married in April and didn't because my fiance's son was killed just before-there's a lot of pain, still. Charlie (my fiance) just told me we don't have to go to my friend's wedding if I didn't think I could handle it. I think it would be awfully selfish of me not to be there. I need to start dealing with life. So is it gonna be Ghiradelli or Godiva?? ((((Leigh)))) >From: Marandtaz@... >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Psychobabble,anyone? >Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:39:29 EDT > >In a message dated 7/15/99 12:42:37 PM Central Daylight Time, >wrose2@... writes: > ><< EVERYBODY SHOULD DO GOOD THINGS FOR THEMSELVES! > >> >You bet it is....I am still learning it is ok to do it too! >But I know It feels good to give yourself flowers. >Next Valentines day, I may send myself a box of candy too! ) >Hugz >Leigh > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. >Start with up to 150 Points for joining! >http://clickhere./click/475 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 I agree, Leigh. Tomorrow I am going to see the only friend I have that is still in AA get married. It's going to be a toughie, but I'm going because I haven't seen her in a couple of years and she was there for me so many times in the past. We live about 150 miles apart now and both have very busy lives. You know I was supposed to get married in April and didn't because my fiance's son was killed just before-there's a lot of pain, still. Charlie (my fiance) just told me we don't have to go to my friend's wedding if I didn't think I could handle it. I think it would be awfully selfish of me not to be there. I need to start dealing with life. So is it gonna be Ghiradelli or Godiva?? ((((Leigh)))) >From: Marandtaz@... >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Psychobabble,anyone? >Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:39:29 EDT > >In a message dated 7/15/99 12:42:37 PM Central Daylight Time, >wrose2@... writes: > ><< EVERYBODY SHOULD DO GOOD THINGS FOR THEMSELVES! > >> >You bet it is....I am still learning it is ok to do it too! >But I know It feels good to give yourself flowers. >Next Valentines day, I may send myself a box of candy too! ) >Hugz >Leigh > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. >Start with up to 150 Points for joining! >http://clickhere./click/475 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 1999 Report Share Posted July 17, 1999 The AA view that a person who has been subjected to abuse needs to look at the part they played in it, is in itself another form of abuse in a psychological manner.. Yes there are people that bring abuse on themselves, sometimes repeatedly and in those cases it would be relevant to take a look at the behavior that sets them up. Yes, there are things people can do to prevent further abuse. Usually this takes being an adult as children are often abused by their own caregivers. However the fact remains that weaker people, particularly innocent children are abused and it is in no way their fault because they played a part in it. The truth is they were used against their will and forced to do something they did not choose to do. I spent a good twenty years educating people in self defense. Having been a victim of abuse myself and having taken measures as a 11 year old to stack the odds in my favor that it would never happen to me again I felt compelled to empower others to help themselves. I specialized in training rape victims and children who had been molested or bullied in mental and physical methods to give them a greater awareness and confidence in their ability to defend themselves. Never was such an ignorant and insensitive question asked as what was the part you played in it. I let my students know that what happened was not their fault, that their are bad people who use their greater strength or position of power to abuse others. That in no way means you did anything wrong. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time does not automatically constitute fault on anyone's part. That is an absurd notion. The question I asked was, what would do you want to do now to become more clever and stronger in your own right. Clever meaning how to avoid engaging in contact with an abuser and stronger meaning what can you do if contact occurs. Avoidance is preferable but not always poosible. You cannot changed what happened but you sure can do something now. I also employed the services of law enforcement, attorneys and psychologists in cases that warranted it. We would work from there. Yes it is real convenient to believe that truly abused people bring it on themselves, especially if you are an abusive person yourself. Perhaps this is where this notion of victim responsibility comes from, the abusers themselves. Having said that there is a wide disparity between a persons rights to choose who they will have personal or intimate contact with and the reality of what happens. There are people in the world who believe that their ability to do things is all the license they need. In the long run they could use some help too, but while they are committing some heinous act on some weaker vulnerable human being help for them is not relevant. Help the victim to eliminate the threat in an expedient manner. Goes along with the same archaic saying about spare the rod and spoil the child. As if concern and an ability to educate a child in self discipline and self restraint requires a good beating every once in a while. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 1999 Report Share Posted July 17, 1999 TWO GREAT POSTS IN A ROW!!! wrote: > > The AA view that a person who has been subjected to abuse needs to look > at the part they played in it, is in itself another form of abuse in a > psychological manner.. Yes there are people that bring abuse on > themselves, sometimes repeatedly and in those cases it would be relevant > to take a look at the behavior that sets them up. Yes, there are things > people can do to prevent further abuse. Usually this takes being an > adult as children are often abused by their own caregivers. However the > fact remains that weaker people, particularly innocent children are > abused and it is in no way their fault because they played a part in it. > The truth is they were used against their will and forced to do > something they did not choose to do. I spent a good twenty years > educating people in self defense. Having been a victim of abuse myself > and having taken measures as a 11 year old to stack the odds in my favor > that it would never happen to me again I felt compelled to empower > others to help themselves. I specialized in training rape victims and > children who had been molested or bullied in mental and physical methods > to give them a greater awareness and confidence in their ability to > defend themselves. Never was such an ignorant and insensitive question > asked as what was the part you played in it. I let my students know > that what happened was not their fault, that their are bad people who > use their greater strength or position of power to abuse others. That in > no way means you did anything wrong. Being in the wrong place at the > wrong time does not automatically constitute fault on anyone's part. > That is an absurd notion. The question I asked was, what would do you > want to do now to become more clever and stronger in your own right. > Clever meaning how to avoid engaging in contact with an abuser and > stronger meaning what can you do if contact occurs. Avoidance is > preferable but not always poosible. You > cannot changed what happened but you sure can do something now. I also > employed the services of law enforcement, attorneys and psychologists in > cases that warranted it. We would work from there. Yes it is real > convenient to believe that truly abused people bring it on themselves, > especially if you are an abusive person yourself. Perhaps this is where > this notion of victim responsibility comes from, the abusers themselves. > > Having said that there is a wide disparity between a persons rights to > choose who they will have personal or intimate contact with and the > reality of what happens. There are people in the world who believe that > their ability to do things is all the license they need. In the long run > they could use some help too, but while they are committing some heinous > act on some weaker vulnerable human being help for them is not relevant. > Help the victim to eliminate the threat in an expedient manner. > Goes along with the same archaic saying about spare the rod and spoil > the child. As if concern and an ability to educate a child in self > discipline and self restraint requires a good beating every once in a > while. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning > FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program. > http://clickhere./click/449 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 1999 Report Share Posted July 17, 1999 TWO GREAT POSTS IN A ROW!!! wrote: > > The AA view that a person who has been subjected to abuse needs to look > at the part they played in it, is in itself another form of abuse in a > psychological manner.. Yes there are people that bring abuse on > themselves, sometimes repeatedly and in those cases it would be relevant > to take a look at the behavior that sets them up. Yes, there are things > people can do to prevent further abuse. Usually this takes being an > adult as children are often abused by their own caregivers. However the > fact remains that weaker people, particularly innocent children are > abused and it is in no way their fault because they played a part in it. > The truth is they were used against their will and forced to do > something they did not choose to do. I spent a good twenty years > educating people in self defense. Having been a victim of abuse myself > and having taken measures as a 11 year old to stack the odds in my favor > that it would never happen to me again I felt compelled to empower > others to help themselves. I specialized in training rape victims and > children who had been molested or bullied in mental and physical methods > to give them a greater awareness and confidence in their ability to > defend themselves. Never was such an ignorant and insensitive question > asked as what was the part you played in it. I let my students know > that what happened was not their fault, that their are bad people who > use their greater strength or position of power to abuse others. That in > no way means you did anything wrong. Being in the wrong place at the > wrong time does not automatically constitute fault on anyone's part. > That is an absurd notion. The question I asked was, what would do you > want to do now to become more clever and stronger in your own right. > Clever meaning how to avoid engaging in contact with an abuser and > stronger meaning what can you do if contact occurs. Avoidance is > preferable but not always poosible. You > cannot changed what happened but you sure can do something now. I also > employed the services of law enforcement, attorneys and psychologists in > cases that warranted it. We would work from there. Yes it is real > convenient to believe that truly abused people bring it on themselves, > especially if you are an abusive person yourself. Perhaps this is where > this notion of victim responsibility comes from, the abusers themselves. > > Having said that there is a wide disparity between a persons rights to > choose who they will have personal or intimate contact with and the > reality of what happens. There are people in the world who believe that > their ability to do things is all the license they need. In the long run > they could use some help too, but while they are committing some heinous > act on some weaker vulnerable human being help for them is not relevant. > Help the victim to eliminate the threat in an expedient manner. > Goes along with the same archaic saying about spare the rod and spoil > the child. As if concern and an ability to educate a child in self > discipline and self restraint requires a good beating every once in a > while. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning > FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program. > http://clickhere./click/449 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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