Re: pardon? (Luanne)

July 26, 1999

In a message dated 7/26/99 5:09:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

railroadrita@... writes:

<< But, Luanne, are you saying that the only possible problem one can

have with drinking is " incurable, fatal disease of alcoholism " ? >>

All I am saying is that once I started, I could not stop. It would sometimes

go on for days. I once woke up in a psycho ward with 47 stitches in my

arm....an apparent suicide attempt in a blackout.

So, you are saying that I should give 'moderation' a try? I think not. I am

too scared. I've said that before, and I will continue to say it.

Also, after my last drinking rendevous that lasted six months, I woke up with

a few strange men that I didn't know (had to get tested for HIV) and also was

throwing up blood.

So, you STILL think I should give moderation a try??

Best,

Luanne

July 26, 1999

In a message dated 7/26/99 5:09:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

railroadrita@... writes:

<< Eventually the clinical depression lifted enough to discontinue

the Paxil, though I continued in therapy; and eventually with the

approval of my psychologist I began to drink in moderation. >>

More power to ya. Glad somebody can drink in moderation. I watched my own

mother die of cirrhosis, and several family members are on the 'Highway to

Hell' as I type this. I don't even want to take a chance at it. I would

just rather not drink - PERIOD.

I guess most of the people I have met in my life were pretty hard-core

drinkers, as I was. Anybody else on here who feels like me? Hates AA but

still doesn't feel that they could even CONSIDER MODERATION?

Best,

Luanne

July 26, 1999

In a message dated 7/26/99 6:30:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

joe-b@... writes:

<< But I notice also that you seem to be interpreting what others

are saying about moderation as if they are suggesting that _you_ should try

it. >>

Yes, I guess I am misunderstanding it. Like I said, more power to those who

can do it. I don't wanna even try.

Best,

Luanne

July 26, 1999

In a message dated 7/26/99 7:00:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

railroadrita@... writes:

<< know you said you have some difficulty concentrating; perhaps

you might try to take your time and read the entire post, before going

on the offensive... >>

Yes, and that is exactly what happened. I had to re-read your email several

times before I got the jist of it. <sigh> I know, it's a pain in the ass

for me.

Yeah, guess I get offensive. I'm scared to death of booze though. It's a

whole lot bigger than I am.

Few weeks ago, went to Mexico and the gal gave me some chocolate-covered

cherries in a store that I was at. I was chewing on one, thinking " What is

this FAMILIAR TASTE? " Asked her if there was booze in them, yeah - they were

brandy-covered. I spit it out! That's how freaked I am about booze. Stuff

damn near killed me before.

Best,

Luanne

July 26, 1999

Luanne P wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6331

> In a message dated 7/26/99 2:46:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

> pachy2@... writes:

>

> << However, if some folks can drink moderately, why shouldn't they if

> that's their choice. More power to them.

> >>

>

> How about this thought: If they can drink MODERATELY, they never had

a

> problem to start with???

>

> Best,

> Luanne

--------------------------------

But, Luanne, are you saying that the only possible problem one can

have with drinking is " incurable, fatal disease of alcoholism " ?

( " Alkies " vs. " normies " -- AA bullshit!)

I rarely drank a large amount at one sitting, and never had

blackouts or any health problems from drinking. However (and

especially during my periodic bouts of depression), I often drank at

inappropriate _times_. I would often get a bizarre urge to have a

vodka tonic in a laundromat, for instance, and occasionally would

actually rush home, indulge the urge, and return to the laundromat in a

buzzed state to fold my clothes.

This was NOT healthy or " social " drinking. Eventually this

undisciplined, UN-MODERATED use of alcohol resulted in my getting into

trouble at work. I was not anything near intoxicated on the day in

question, but my use of alcohol at the time I used it that day was

entirely inappropriate.

I made an immediate commitment to " moderate " , meaning not simply

to not have more than 2 drinks (which was all I ever typically would

consume) but to be disciplined about WHEN I drink. For a long time I

did abstain totally, simply because I was so depressed and ashamed over

my suspension and the EAP mindf**k that I really wasn't in the mood to

eat, drink, or anything else pleasurable. Later I was prescribed Paxil

(an anti-depressant) and was told by my M.D. that I could have a glass

of wine while on it without ill effect, but found this to be untrue --

the smallest amount of alcohol made me terribly dizzy while taking

Paxil so I did not even consume the Sabbath Kiddush (ritual wine).

Eventually the clinical depression lifted enough to discontinue

the Paxil, though I continued in therapy; and eventually with the

approval of my psychologist I began to drink in moderation.

I had a problem in the way I drank which was solved by a

self-designed moderation plan. You may have a different problem, and

permanent abstinence may be the right solution to yours.

I see no reason for us to be in competition about whose problem is

more " worthy " of being called a problem.

~Rita

July 26, 1999

At 08:43 PM 7/26/99 EDT, you wrote:

>In a message dated 7/26/99 5:09:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

>railroadrita@... writes:

>

><< But, Luanne, are you saying that the only possible problem one can

> have with drinking is " incurable, fatal disease of alcoholism " ? >>

>

>All I am saying is that once I started, I could not stop. It would

sometimes

>go on for days. I once woke up in a psycho ward with 47 stitches in my

>arm....an apparent suicide attempt in a blackout.

>

>So, you are saying that I should give 'moderation' a try? I think not. I

am

>too scared. I've said that before, and I will continue to say it.

>

>Also, after my last drinking rendevous that lasted six months, I woke up

with

>a few strange men that I didn't know (had to get tested for HIV) and also

was

>throwing up blood.

>

>So, you STILL think I should give moderation a try??

>

>Best,

>Luanne

Hi Luanne- forgive me for butting in here. I've been following this thread

and I notice you are repeatedly rejecting the idea of moderating your

drinking. And the description you give of some of the things that happened

to to you in the past as a result of drinking makes this look very

sensible. But I notice also that you seem to be interpreting what others

are saying about moderation as if they are suggesting that _you_ should try

it. Maybe someone here did say that, but in the messages I've been reading

here tonight, for example this one of Rita's that you are responding to,

she isn't suggesting that you try moderation at all. If you look at what

she said, it was this;

> I had a problem in the way I drank which was solved by a

>self-designed moderation plan. You may have a different problem, and

>permanent abstinence may be the right solution to yours.

But when you replied, you said;

>So, you STILL think I should give moderation a try??

But she didn't say that she thought you should give moderation a try! She

said permanent abstinence may be the right solution for your problem. Do

you see what I'm getting at here? You seem to be responding to a

" suggestion to moderate " that no-one is actually making. If anyone has

suggested that you try moderation (and I missed it), then I don't think

that makes any sense. You sound like an excellent candidate for abstinence.

Anyway, I'm not saying this to criticise you or anything like that, I just

thought it might help if I pointed out that no-one here (as far as I can

see) is trying to get you to moderate. I think your intention to remain

abstinent sounds like a really good idea and I wish you every success with

it.

I think the big difference here is that on this list, unlike AA for

example, abstinence is not seen as necessary for everyone, but only for

those who actually do need it. This is the modern and scientific view of

alcohol dependance too- different people need different things to solve the

problem. AA isn't scientific and it doesn't try to represent what really

happens, it just tries to push its own agenda of one size fits everyone. AA

assumes (wrongly) that _anyone_ who had any sort of problem with alcohol

must commit themselves to a lifetime of abstinence in order to solve that

problem, yet in the real world many people grow out of excessive drinking

and learn to moderate naturally. AA more-or-less denies that this happens,

or implies that those people never had a " real problem " in the first place.

What incredible arrogance and foolishness! AA ignores the real life

experience of thousands of people because it does not fit with the ideas it

wants to propagate!

The world does not exist in only black and white and people who drink are

not divided into the two distinct categories of " alcoholics " and

" non-alcoholics " - peoples' drinking behaviour covers a continuum all the

way from " no problem at all " to " severe life-threatening problem " with all

the shades of grey that exist in between the two extremes. And peoples'

drinking behaviour can change. So someone who had a problem with their

drinking behaviour can solve that problem by changing their drinking

behaviour. This does not mean everybody who has a slight to moderate

problem has to abstain totally to solve that problem, although that is what

AA tells us.

Anyway, I think it is natural to see the idea of moderation as somewhat

threatening if it is an unfamiliar idea, but the fact is that that some

people can do it. This does not mean that people think _you_ should do it.

For what its worth, on the basis of your description of your drinking

behaviour, my personal opinion is I think you should never drink again as

long as you live! I'm serious. From the description you gave, there is an

obvious risk of serious harm to you if you resume drinking, and it makes

real sense for you to rule that option out altogether.

Joe Berenbaum

mailto:joe-b@...

July 26, 1999

Luanne P wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6367

> In a message dated 7/26/99 5:09:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> railroadrita@... writes:

>

> << But, Luanne, are you saying that the only possible problem one can

> have with drinking is " incurable, fatal disease of alcoholism " ? >>

>

> All I am saying is that once I started, I could not stop. It would

sometimes

> go on for days. I once woke up in a psycho ward with 47 stitches in

my

> arm....an apparent suicide attempt in a blackout.

>

> So, you are saying that I should give 'moderation' a try?

>

-------------------------------------

I know you said you have some difficulty concentrating; perhaps

you might try to take your time and read the entire post, before going

on the offensive... I NEVER said you or anyone else " ought " to try to

drink in moderation, and my post was about MY experience, not yours...

I was very clear that I respect other people's individual perceptions

of their problems, and other people's solutions...

***** RE-POST *****

" I had a problem in the way I drank which was solved by a

self-designed moderation plan. You may have a different problem, and

permanent abstinence may be the right solution to yours.

" I see no reason for us to be in competition about whose problem

is more " worthy " of being called a problem. ~Rita "

------------------------------------

> Also, after my last drinking rendevous that lasted six months, I woke

up with

> a few strange men that I didn't know (had to get tested for HIV) and

also was

> throwing up blood.

>

> So, you STILL think I should give moderation a try??

>

------------------------------------

No, bubbie, what I think is that you should try to remember that we

are not all Luanne, and there is no prize here for the biggest and best

drinking, drugging, or psychiatric problems... we are not attacking

you...

~Rita

July 28, 1999

Hi Luanne,

I've had thoughts recently that maybe now I can have a drink on special

occasions. But I continue to remember how I used to drink - quite a bit of

at home alone drinking till I was good and drunk. I don't think it's AA

mind control - I did drink to extremes and don't ever want to experience

hangovers and wasted days. And if and when I ever do drink, I don't want to

go through alot of mind control and mega will power. In other words, if I

can't simply enjoy the drink without mental gymnastics over it, what's the

point of me drinking.

I'm with you with your decision and self-knowledge that you are in no

position to drink alcoholic beverages. You know yourself best.

After reading much of the mail regards PTSD, I'm beginning to believe my

future ex-husband may suffer from that. He has told me he was sexually

molested by a first cousin when he was a young boy. Add to that, seeing his

father beat up his mother the first six years of his life, then exit his

life completely till he was 26 and I'm sure he's a good candidate. Despite

our history together, this is what breaks my heart for him and helped me

hang in there with him. On the other hand, it was frustrating to hear him

continue to say that all he needed to deal with his problems was AA and

needless to say, that kept his mental state in the cellar. We who live with

victims of PTSD feel helpless. We want to know how to understand and relate

but unless the victim is seeking help it's a no-win situation. The ones

around them receive their rage and wrath and there's only so much one can

take. However, when one such as yourself is seeking a way to live with the

problem and make things somewhat better, it allows the others to ask how

they can help and be supportive.

Jan

Re: pardon? (Luanne)

>In a message dated 7/26/99 5:09:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

>railroadrita@... writes:

>

><< Eventually the clinical depression lifted enough to discontinue

> the Paxil, though I continued in therapy; and eventually with the

> approval of my psychologist I began to drink in moderation. >>

>

>More power to ya. Glad somebody can drink in moderation. I watched my

own

>mother die of cirrhosis, and several family members are on the 'Highway to

>Hell' as I type this. I don't even want to take a chance at it. I would

>just rather not drink - PERIOD.

>

>I guess most of the people I have met in my life were pretty hard-core

>drinkers, as I was. Anybody else on here who feels like me? Hates AA but

>still doesn't feel that they could even CONSIDER MODERATION?

>

>Best,

>Luanne

>

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July 28, 1999