Re: Cast your vote (was 12-step-free digest)

[Guest guest]

Apple,

Geez.....Somewhere in my leftover literature, I may still have a list

of which of AA's various logos are copyrighted and which are not. When

I was deep into the politics of AA, there was some controversy

regarding the use of AA logos--which could and which could not be used

for various things. The controversy arose out of the use of the

circle/triangle on the anniversary coins. Subsequently, the maker of

the coins (a private business venture) changed the design to conform

with GSO's request. When one of their copyrighted logos is used for

something they approve of, they politely request that you cease and

desist if you are making a profit selling something with that logo on

it. However if they don't approve of what you are doing (somehow I

don't think they would approve of these particular stickers!)they would

probably persue legal action. If you want, I can search for the piece

of literature which shows the copyrighted stuff.

Kate

> The brainwashed guy has a triangle on his forehead too.. I wonder if

> that version is copyrighted... Maybe I could do a similar, but

> slightly different AA triangle to avoid any possible legal problems.

> Apple

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/10/99 12:13:07 PM Central Daylight Time,

AppleDTP@... writes:

> Please cast your vote... " subtle AA logo " or " brainwashed guy " .

>

Brainwashed guy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/10/99 3:18:46 PM Central Daylight Time, kstads@...

writes:

>

> Nope, no step or tradition violation involved. GSO is a business

> organization and you can bet they'll sue. Having, regrettably, been

> involved in AA politics, I can assure you that this kind of use of one

> of the few things they actually have copyrighted will arouse the masses

> and that although it will take a long time to go through the mill, I am

> fairly certian that they would persue legal action.

>

> Kate

>

I'd have to agree with you. What's worse,is that if they did sue, they

would portray themselves as victims.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/10/99 3:22:57 PM Central Daylight Time,

vomiticus@... writes:

> Tradition Ten is what the GSO is always hiding behind:

> " Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA

> name ought never be drawn into public controversy. "

This would not be an outside issue. It's their copyright.

> I would think Tradition Eleven would be broken if AA sued anyone:

> " Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than

> promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of

> press, radio, and films. "

Not necessarily,They would be protecting their copyright.

> Tradition Twelve places AA on the pedestal, making them Holier than

> Thou, or making them too good to sue anyone:

> " Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of our traditions, ever

> reminding us to place principles before personalities. "

This one is interesting...In order to sue, someone would have to step

up and be a plaintiff,thus breaking anonymity.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/10/99 3:24:35 PM Central Daylight Time, AppleDTP@...

writes:

> The brainwashed guy has a triangle on his forehead too.. I wonder if

> that version is copyrighted... Maybe I could do a similar, but

> slightly different AA triangle to avoid any possible legal problems.

> Apple

>

You could do something like what the furor was over the " Tele-Tubbies "

with the one character in purple,and the symbol that was supposed to be gay.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/10/99 3:24:35 PM Central Daylight Time, AppleDTP@...

writes:

> The brainwashed guy has a triangle on his forehead too.. I wonder if

> that version is copyrighted... Maybe I could do a similar, but

> slightly different AA triangle to avoid any possible legal problems.

> Apple

>

You could do something like what the furor was over the " Tele-Tubbies "

with the one character in purple,and the symbol that was supposed to be gay.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/10/99 3:24:35 PM Central Daylight Time, AppleDTP@...

writes:

> The brainwashed guy has a triangle on his forehead too.. I wonder if

> that version is copyrighted... Maybe I could do a similar, but

> slightly different AA triangle to avoid any possible legal problems.

> Apple

>

You could do something like what the furor was over the " Tele-Tubbies "

with the one character in purple,and the symbol that was supposed to be gay.

[Guest guest]

Hi Apple,

I think the AA Logo is copyrighted, but I don't think the circle w/

triangle is. I think AA General Service Office let go of any claim to

the circle and triangle given so many others have adopted it. As far as

my vote goes, I'm torn. I'll need to see the mock ups.

AppleDTP@... wrote:

>

> I've contacted a label company for a price quote, but the project might

> be completed only AFTER I come back from vacation. (at the end of

> september).

>

> I need a group vote... I have two designs in mind:

>

> Both of them will have the same text

> " The dark side of Alcoholics Anonymous revealed!

> www.AAdeprogramming.com

> (Shhhhh.... don't let your sponsor find out)

>

> One design has the AA circle and triangle, with the double " A " s in the

> middle. At first glance it looks like an AA decal. But thre is one

> line of text (there are three), for each side of the triangle.

>

> The other design, has the brainwashed AA guy (from the site) coming out

> of the AA zone. The same text will appear in an appropriately

> decorative typeface.

>

> Please cast your vote... " subtle AA logo " or " brainwashed guy " .

>

> Apple

>

> > >Hi there... I've decided on decals that are hard to peel off. They

> can

> > >be placed in Big Books, other recovery books and on phone booths

> > >outside of meetings.

> > >Apple

> >

> > " hard to peel off " - apple, you continue to kill me. Man, that's

> funny.

> > Yes! That will be super cool. Please give us a preview as to the

> text that

> > will be on them.

> >

> > Oooo. I just thought of some recovery clubs that could use a little

> > late-night " decorating " MMMMMmmmmwahahahahahahah... Oh I feel alive.

> >

> >

> > Laterz,

> >

> > Alan Ro...er... I mean... from Nebraska...yeah, that's

> the

> > ticket...

> >

> > ______________________________________________________

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Was the salesman clueless?

> Productopia has the answers.

> http://clickhere./click/555

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi Apple,

I think the AA Logo is copyrighted, but I don't think the circle w/

triangle is. I think AA General Service Office let go of any claim to

the circle and triangle given so many others have adopted it. As far as

my vote goes, I'm torn. I'll need to see the mock ups.

AppleDTP@... wrote:

>

> I've contacted a label company for a price quote, but the project might

> be completed only AFTER I come back from vacation. (at the end of

> september).

>

> I need a group vote... I have two designs in mind:

>

> Both of them will have the same text

> " The dark side of Alcoholics Anonymous revealed!

> www.AAdeprogramming.com

> (Shhhhh.... don't let your sponsor find out)

>

> One design has the AA circle and triangle, with the double " A " s in the

> middle. At first glance it looks like an AA decal. But thre is one

> line of text (there are three), for each side of the triangle.

>

> The other design, has the brainwashed AA guy (from the site) coming out

> of the AA zone. The same text will appear in an appropriately

> decorative typeface.

>

> Please cast your vote... " subtle AA logo " or " brainwashed guy " .

>

> Apple

>

> > >Hi there... I've decided on decals that are hard to peel off. They

> can

> > >be placed in Big Books, other recovery books and on phone booths

> > >outside of meetings.

> > >Apple

> >

> > " hard to peel off " - apple, you continue to kill me. Man, that's

> funny.

> > Yes! That will be super cool. Please give us a preview as to the

> text that

> > will be on them.

> >

> > Oooo. I just thought of some recovery clubs that could use a little

> > late-night " decorating " MMMMMmmmmwahahahahahahah... Oh I feel alive.

> >

> >

> > Laterz,

> >

> > Alan Ro...er... I mean... from Nebraska...yeah, that's

> the

> > ticket...

> >

> > ______________________________________________________

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Was the salesman clueless?

> Productopia has the answers.

> http://clickhere./click/555

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

On the other hand,a public battle with AA might be exactly what is needed.

As all record marketing execs know, the best way to increase sales is to

have it attacked and banned by the puritans. If AA were to kick up a fuss,

we would get ALOT more exposure than we could ever hope to get by slipping

brochures, stickers, ect. A lot less fun mind you, but publicity nontheless.

(was that a word?)

Of course there's the lawyer fees and the cost of redesign but I feel it's a

point that should be in the decision making mix.

Best to ya's and you are all a breath of fresh air, whatever the differing

opinions. At least they're opinions, not safe, acceptable AA-speak cliches

and non-thoughts.

kstads@... wrote:

> For your safety, I must vote for the " brainwashed guy. " I think the AA

> circle/triangle with the AA in the middle is protected by copyright

> (held by GSO) and with your website printed right on it, they would

> have no trouble tracking you down and suing for copyright violation. If

> the " brainwashed guy " on your site is your original creation, you

> automatically hold the copyright to it and can use it as you see fit,

> or designate it as " copyfree " if you wish.

>

[Guest guest]

On the other hand,a public battle with AA might be exactly what is needed.

As all record marketing execs know, the best way to increase sales is to

have it attacked and banned by the puritans. If AA were to kick up a fuss,

we would get ALOT more exposure than we could ever hope to get by slipping

brochures, stickers, ect. A lot less fun mind you, but publicity nontheless.

(was that a word?)

Of course there's the lawyer fees and the cost of redesign but I feel it's a

point that should be in the decision making mix.

Best to ya's and you are all a breath of fresh air, whatever the differing

opinions. At least they're opinions, not safe, acceptable AA-speak cliches

and non-thoughts.

kstads@... wrote:

> For your safety, I must vote for the " brainwashed guy. " I think the AA

> circle/triangle with the AA in the middle is protected by copyright

> (held by GSO) and with your website printed right on it, they would

> have no trouble tracking you down and suing for copyright violation. If

> the " brainwashed guy " on your site is your original creation, you

> automatically hold the copyright to it and can use it as you see fit,

> or designate it as " copyfree " if you wish.

>

[Guest guest]

Apple:

Subtle AA for me.

Cast your vote (was 12-step-free digest)

> I've contacted a label company for a price quote, but the project might

> be completed only AFTER I come back from vacation. (at the end of

> september).

>

> I need a group vote... I have two designs in mind:

>

> Both of them will have the same text

> " The dark side of Alcoholics Anonymous revealed!

> www.AAdeprogramming.com

> (Shhhhh.... don't let your sponsor find out)

>

> One design has the AA circle and triangle, with the double " A " s in the

> middle. At first glance it looks like an AA decal. But thre is one

> line of text (there are three), for each side of the triangle.

>

> The other design, has the brainwashed AA guy (from the site) coming out

> of the AA zone. The same text will appear in an appropriately

> decorative typeface.

>

> Please cast your vote... " subtle AA logo " or " brainwashed guy " .

>

> Apple

>

>

> > >Hi there... I've decided on decals that are hard to peel off. They

> can

> > >be placed in Big Books, other recovery books and on phone booths

> > >outside of meetings.

> > >Apple

> >

> > " hard to peel off " - apple, you continue to kill me. Man, that's

> funny.

> > Yes! That will be super cool. Please give us a preview as to the

> text that

> > will be on them.

> >

> > Oooo. I just thought of some recovery clubs that could use a little

> > late-night " decorating " MMMMMmmmmwahahahahahahah... Oh I feel alive.

> >

> >

> > Laterz,

> >

> > Alan Ro...er... I mean... from Nebraska...yeah, that's

> the

> > ticket...

> >

> > ______________________________________________________

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Was the salesman clueless?

> Productopia has the answers.

> http://clickhere./click/555

>

>

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 01:05 PM 9/10/99 -0700, WROSE2@... wrote:

>wrose-@... wrote:

>

>V.,

>

>Good points. I was involved with AA for 15 years at level EXCEPT

>dealing with the GSO directly. I knew it was addressed in some way.

>

>I know also of many instances where people have willed money to AA and

>it was *publicly* not accepted.

I recall reading in the AA Grapfine such statements as maximum lifetime

donation (directly to GSO, anyway) was set at $1000, later raised to $5000

or something similar. I know they would not accept donations above the max,

but how was this 'publically' done?

>I'm a little foggy on the details.

>I'm trying to forget a lot things!!

I studied this shit when all the other members, even old timers (especially

the arrogant old timers) didn't know beans from shit about it and didn't care.

If it wasn't in the forst 164 pages of the big book, it was too complicated

for them.

I was elected as a group representative once (see, there ARE mistakes in

AA), but other than that never 'served' in the politics of the groups/clubs

I attended. My social skills are so bad they even held me back in AA.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 11:51 AM 9/10/99 -0700, kstads@... wrote:

>For your safety, I must vote for the " brainwashed guy. " I think the AA

>circle/triangle with the AA in the middle is protected by copyright

>(held by GSO)

I think it's a trademark rather than a copyright, and AA GSO gave up

'trying to enforce it' [sending out letters saying 'please don't use our

tradmaeked logo'] about seven or eight years ago. I can probably find the

grapvine that talks about this. It had been so widely used on chips and

bronze meddalians (AA GSO doesn't make these so those who did violated

the trademark) that they had to decide between actually going to court

(something that GSO has apparently managed never to do) and giving up

title to the logo. It had been used for decades on AA literatore (such as

the big book) to identify " AA Conference Approved " , but since they gave up

trying to enforce their exclusive right to use it, they quit using it.

>and with your website printed right on it, they would

>have no trouble tracking you down and suing for copyright violation.

Does anyone here know of a case where AA sued someone or was sued, or

where such a case made it to court? I remember there was none as of about

seven years ago or so.

There's the tradition against 'public controversy' and they see going to

court in a civil suit would be violating that tradition, so AA GSO has

wimped out of doing a lot of serious defense of AA literature.

Using the AA logo would not be what I'd worry about - please read my

comments at the end.

> If

>the " brainwashed guy " on your site is your original creation, you

>automatically hold the copyright to it and can use it as you see fit,

Though adding the word " Copyright " might help, though IANAL.

>or designate it as " copyfree " if you wish.

>

>Kate

>

>> I need a group vote... I have two designs in mind:

>>

>> Both of them will have the same text

>> " The dark side of Alcoholics Anonymous revealed!

>> www.AAdeprogramming.com

>> (Shhhhh.... don't let your sponsor find out)

>>

>> One design has the AA circle and triangle, with the double " A " s in the

>> middle. At first glance it looks like an AA decal. But thre is one

>> line of text (there are three), for each side of the triangle.

>>

>> The other design, has the brainwashed AA guy (from the site) coming

>out

>> of the AA zone. The same text will appear in an appropriately

>> decorative typeface.

>>

>> Please cast your vote... " subtle AA logo " or " brainwashed guy " .

I like (ab)using the AA logo... :-)

>>

>> Apple

>>

>>

>> > >Hi there... I've decided on decals that are hard to peel off. They

>> can

>> > >be placed in Big Books, other recovery books and on phone booths

>> > >outside of meetings.

>> > >Apple

>> >

>> > " hard to peel off " - apple, you continue to kill me. Man, that's

>> funny.

>> > Yes! That will be super cool. Please give us a preview as to the

>> text that

>> > will be on them.

>> >

>> > Oooo. I just thought of some recovery clubs that could use a

>little

>> > late-night " decorating " MMMMMmmmmwahahahahahahah... Oh I feel alive.

I'd be a lot more worried about stickers with the aadeprogramming.com

website on them being used to deface others' property (which gives them

plenty of reason to go after the site owner fior damages) than I would

the use of AA copyrighted materials. Apple, you can't control what others

here do, so you might want to just make business cards only...

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

Re: Cast your vote (was 12-step-free digest)

Hmm. I'd go ahead and use the AA logo, and when they send out their lawyers

you could just shrug and say that it isn't your fault; after all, AAdeprogramming

can't be held responsible for what some of it's supporters do. Kinda the same as AA saying it isn't responsible for sexual predators within- and bad medical/psychiatric advice dispensed by- its membership...gosh, golly gee, you posted a parody of the Sacred Logo on the web,and look at what people have done! Printed up industrial-strength stickers and plastered 'em every-damn-where! The nerve! (you can pretend to have a nasty cough--the time-tested way to hide laughing up your sleeve) *sigh* Some are sicker than others, right?

My new morning coffee hangout gets lots of customers from the AA meeting place down the street. Nothing like getting your day off to a good start, I say--let me know how much a roll costs...

Cheers,

.

The brainwashed guy has a triangle on his forehead too.. I wonder if

that version is copyrighted... Maybe I could do a similar, but

slightly different AA triangle to avoid any possible legal problems.

Apple

appledt-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7951

> For your safety, I must vote for the " brainwashed guy. " I think the AA

> circle/triangle with the AA in the middle is protected by copyright

> (held by GSO) and with your website printed right on it, they would

> have no trouble tracking you down and suing for copyright violation.

If

> the " brainwashed guy " on your site is your original creation, you

> automatically hold the copyright to it and can use it as you see fit,

> or designate it as " copyfree " if you wish.

> > Kate

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-freewww. - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

There's some interesting correspondence about AA's willingness to sue

on a site that I believe I linked to from Apple's. That whole question

is pretty convoluted anyway, because despite the traditions, Bill W.

apparently envisioned a chain of AA hospitals when he started AA.

kayleigh-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7952

> wrose-@... wrote:

>

> That's an interesting question-would AA sue anybody?

>

> Doesn't that violate a tradition or step??

>

>

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7951

> > For your safety, I must vote for the " brainwashed guy. " I think the

AA

> > circle/triangle with the AA in the middle is protected by copyright

> > (held by GSO) and with your website printed right on it, they would

> > have no trouble tracking you down and suing for copyright violation.

> If

> > the " brainwashed guy " on your site is your original creation, you

> > automatically hold the copyright to it and can use it as you see

fit,

> > or designate it as " copyfree " if you wish.

> >

> > Kate

> >

> > > I need a group vote... I have two designs in mind:

> > >

> > > Both of them will have the same text

> > > " The dark side of Alcoholics Anonymous revealed!

> > > www.AAdeprogramming.com

> > > (Shhhhh.... don't let your sponsor find out)

> > >

> > > One design has the AA circle and triangle, with the double " A " s in

> the

> > > middle. At first glance it looks like an AA decal. But thre is

one

> > > line of text (there are three), for each side of the triangle.

> > >

> > > The other design, has the brainwashed AA guy (from the site)

coming

> > out

> > > of the AA zone. The same text will appear in an appropriately

> > > decorative typeface.

> > >

> > > Please cast your vote... " subtle AA logo " or " brainwashed guy " .

> > >

> > > Apple

> > >

> > >

> > > > >Hi there... I've decided on decals that are hard to peel off.

> They

> > > can

> > > > >be placed in Big Books, other recovery books and on phone

booths

> > > > >outside of meetings.

> > > > >Apple

> > > >

> > > > " hard to peel off " - apple, you continue to kill me. Man,

that's

> > > funny.

> > > > Yes! That will be super cool. Please give us a preview as to

the

> > > text that

> > > > will be on them.

> > > >

> > > > Oooo. I just thought of some recovery clubs that could use a

> > little

> > > > late-night " decorating " MMMMMmmmmwahahahahahahah... Oh I feel

> alive.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Laterz,

> > > >

> > > > Alan Ro...er... I mean... from Nebraska...yeah,

that's

> > > the

> > > > ticket...

> > > >

> > > > ______________________________________________________

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I don't think they could go after me... The burden of proof is on the

plaintiff. Can they prove I stuck the sticker? No. It's the sticking

that's the defacing act here, and not the ordering of the manufacture

of stickers. I think I'm safe, but thanks for pointing out this

possible snag.

Apple

>

> I'd be a lot more worried about stickers with the

aadeprogramming.com

> website on them being used to deface others' property (which gives

them

> plenty of reason to go after the site owner fior damages) than I would

> the use of AA copyrighted materials. Apple, you can't control what

others

> here do, so you might want to just make business cards only...

> -----

> http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

This is very funny... you're right, how could anyone know WHO

manufactured them... oh, the complications.

Apple

>

> Hmm. I'd go ahead and use the AA logo, and when they send out their

lawyers

> you could just shrug and say that it isn't your fault; after all,

AAdeprogramming

> can't be held responsible for what some of it's supporters do. Kinda

the same as AA saying it isn't responsible for sexual predators within-

and bad medical/psychiatric advice dispensed by- its membership...gosh,

golly gee, you posted a parody of the Sacred Logo on the web,and look

at what people have done! Printed up industrial-strength stickers and

plastered 'em every-damn-where! The nerve! (you can pretend to have a

nasty cough--the time-tested way to hide laughing up your sleeve)

*sigh* Some are sicker than others, right?

> My new morning coffee hangout gets lots of customers from the AA

meeting place down the street. Nothing like getting your day off to a

good start, I say--let me know how much a roll costs...

>

> Cheers,

> .

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

This is very funny... you're right, how could anyone know WHO

manufactured them... oh, the complications.

Apple

>

> Hmm. I'd go ahead and use the AA logo, and when they send out their

lawyers

> you could just shrug and say that it isn't your fault; after all,

AAdeprogramming

> can't be held responsible for what some of it's supporters do. Kinda

the same as AA saying it isn't responsible for sexual predators within-

and bad medical/psychiatric advice dispensed by- its membership...gosh,

golly gee, you posted a parody of the Sacred Logo on the web,and look

at what people have done! Printed up industrial-strength stickers and

plastered 'em every-damn-where! The nerve! (you can pretend to have a

nasty cough--the time-tested way to hide laughing up your sleeve)

*sigh* Some are sicker than others, right?

> My new morning coffee hangout gets lots of customers from the AA

meeting place down the street. Nothing like getting your day off to a

good start, I say--let me know how much a roll costs...

>

> Cheers,

> .

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

This is very funny... you're right, how could anyone know WHO

manufactured them... oh, the complications.

Apple

>

> Hmm. I'd go ahead and use the AA logo, and when they send out their

lawyers

> you could just shrug and say that it isn't your fault; after all,

AAdeprogramming

> can't be held responsible for what some of it's supporters do. Kinda

the same as AA saying it isn't responsible for sexual predators within-

and bad medical/psychiatric advice dispensed by- its membership...gosh,

golly gee, you posted a parody of the Sacred Logo on the web,and look

at what people have done! Printed up industrial-strength stickers and

plastered 'em every-damn-where! The nerve! (you can pretend to have a

nasty cough--the time-tested way to hide laughing up your sleeve)

*sigh* Some are sicker than others, right?

> My new morning coffee hangout gets lots of customers from the AA

meeting place down the street. Nothing like getting your day off to a

good start, I say--let me know how much a roll costs...

>

> Cheers,

> .

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I've contacted a label company for a price quote, but the project might

be completed only AFTER I come back from vacation. (at the end of

september).

I need a group vote... I have two designs in mind:

Both of them will have the same text

" The dark side of Alcoholics Anonymous revealed!

www.AAdeprogramming.com

(Shhhhh.... don't let your sponsor find out)

One design has the AA circle and triangle, with the double " A " s in the

middle. At first glance it looks like an AA decal. But thre is one

line of text (there are three), for each side of the triangle.

The other design, has the brainwashed AA guy (from the site) coming out

of the AA zone. The same text will appear in an appropriately

decorative typeface.

Please cast your vote... " subtle AA logo " or " brainwashed guy " .

Apple

Brainwashed! I love that guy! Know just how he feels! Have a great

vacation. You deserve it. And thanks again for the great site.

[Guest guest]

At 11:32 AM 11/09/99 EDT, you wrote:

>I need a group vote... I have two designs in mind:

Subtle sounds good to me. As long as you are safe from litigation....

Joe Berenbaum

[Guest guest]

The brainwashed guy as an introduction to the site comes off as

propagandic... exactly the kind of thinking that you are fighting so hard to

create an alternative to. My vote is for the subtle logo. The point can be

made with rational style. My support is there, however, no matter what is

decided. Good luck.

[Guest guest]

The brainwashed guy as an introduction to the site comes off as

propagandic... exactly the kind of thinking that you are fighting so hard to

create an alternative to. My vote is for the subtle logo. The point can be

made with rational style. My support is there, however, no matter what is

decided. Good luck.

[Guest guest]

I agree. The " brainwashed guy " wins on legal grounds, I think. I'm getting

a great giggle out of the whole idea, anyway. I recently went to a meeting

to look up an old aquaintance. He wasn't at the meeting but I forced myself

to sit through 40 minutes (I promply skedaddled at the smoke break!) and was

saddened at seeing the same faces spouting the same warped rhetoric, their

lives still diminished and on hold, clinging to the program. Who of the

truly spiritual people in this world spend much of their time telling people

how spiritual they are? None, I guess. Back to lurking in the shadows for a

while...........Mike