Re: Is he talking about us? Erm, do we care?

[Guest guest]

ok i missed that. i read what this group is about and feel foolish! does that

mean you can have a group that, what was that again " dare to be critical without

being accused by groupers " (i want to acknowlege right now i stole my screen

name

from Ken Ragges book, but dont worry, he knows) but no one else can? i thought

this group would be a refreshing place to talk, good ideas and looking forward.

now my thoughts on your philosophy is there is something depressiong about it.

just as you feel it is neccassary to scrutinize an idea that you already dont

believe(?) it makes me think that your group needs to be looked at .you say you

want the right to be critical of a philosophy you disagree with? ME TOO.

Joe Berenbaum wrote:

> At 04:26 PM 23/09/99 -0700, you wrote:

> >you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my point is

> >you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated and closed

> >minded. i dont care if you shit all over aa, i just told you what i read and

> >what my immpression of this group are.

>

> <snipped>

>

> , it was quite an experience to read your original, challenging and

> exciting opinions of this list. We obviously have a lot to learn from you.

>

> Here's a question for you; did you read the message that you got when you

> subscribed- the message that tells you what the purpose of this list is?

>

> Let's assume you just forgot to read it. Or maybe you read it but then you

> forgot what it said. Here it is again. The point being- if you do not agree

> with the purpose of this list, why are you on it?

>

> >Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion list for those who have left the

> >groups or are seriously questioning the 12-step doctrine. It is also for

> >those who have a loved one caught up in the step religion. The focus of

> >discussion is on sharing experience with and information on the step

> >groups. Perhaps our most important function is to provide the first

> >place where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a " unanimous

> >majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of character " or

> >another for doing so. Although not the focus here, information on

> >alternative organizations and methods of resolving drinking problems are

> >available for the asking.

>

> Joe Berenbaum

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! Save on vitamins

> & supplements. Use coupon code: VALUE at checkout.

> Expires 9/30/99. http://clickhere./click/996

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

At 05:56 PM 23/09/99 -0700, you wrote:

>ok i missed that. i read what this group is about and feel foolish! does that

>mean you can have a group that, what was that again " dare to be critical

without

>being accused by groupers " (i want to acknowlege right now i stole my

screen name

>from Ken Ragges book, but dont worry, he knows) but no one else can? i

thought

>this group would be a refreshing place to talk, good ideas and looking

forward.

>now my thoughts on your philosophy is there is something depressiong

about it.

>just as you feel it is neccassary to scrutinize an idea that you already dont

>believe(?) it makes me think that your group needs to be looked at .you

say you

>want the right to be critical of a philosophy you disagree with? ME TOO.

I don't think you quite got it that time. Try again.

>Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion list for those who have left the

>groups or are seriously questioning the 12-step doctrine. It is also for

>those who have a loved one caught up in the step religion. The focus of

>discussion is on sharing experience with and information on the step

>groups. Perhaps our most important function is to provide the first

>place where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a " unanimous

>majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of character " or

>another for doing so. Although not the focus here, information on

>alternative organizations and methods of resolving drinking problems are

>available for the asking.

Joe Berenbaum

[Guest guest]

At 05:56 PM 23/09/99 -0700, you wrote:

>ok i missed that. i read what this group is about and feel foolish! does that

>mean you can have a group that, what was that again " dare to be critical

without

>being accused by groupers " (i want to acknowlege right now i stole my

screen name

>from Ken Ragges book, but dont worry, he knows) but no one else can? i

thought

>this group would be a refreshing place to talk, good ideas and looking

forward.

>now my thoughts on your philosophy is there is something depressiong

about it.

>just as you feel it is neccassary to scrutinize an idea that you already dont

>believe(?) it makes me think that your group needs to be looked at .you

say you

>want the right to be critical of a philosophy you disagree with? ME TOO.

I don't think you quite got it that time. Try again.

>Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion list for those who have left the

>groups or are seriously questioning the 12-step doctrine. It is also for

>those who have a loved one caught up in the step religion. The focus of

>discussion is on sharing experience with and information on the step

>groups. Perhaps our most important function is to provide the first

>place where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a " unanimous

>majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of character " or

>another for doing so. Although not the focus here, information on

>alternative organizations and methods of resolving drinking problems are

>available for the asking.

Joe Berenbaum

[Guest guest]

At 05:56 PM 23/09/99 -0700, you wrote:

>ok i missed that. i read what this group is about and feel foolish! does that

>mean you can have a group that, what was that again " dare to be critical

without

>being accused by groupers " (i want to acknowlege right now i stole my

screen name

>from Ken Ragges book, but dont worry, he knows) but no one else can? i

thought

>this group would be a refreshing place to talk, good ideas and looking

forward.

>now my thoughts on your philosophy is there is something depressiong

about it.

>just as you feel it is neccassary to scrutinize an idea that you already dont

>believe(?) it makes me think that your group needs to be looked at .you

say you

>want the right to be critical of a philosophy you disagree with? ME TOO.

I don't think you quite got it that time. Try again.

>Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion list for those who have left the

>groups or are seriously questioning the 12-step doctrine. It is also for

>those who have a loved one caught up in the step religion. The focus of

>discussion is on sharing experience with and information on the step

>groups. Perhaps our most important function is to provide the first

>place where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a " unanimous

>majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of character " or

>another for doing so. Although not the focus here, information on

>alternative organizations and methods of resolving drinking problems are

>available for the asking.

Joe Berenbaum

[Guest guest]

Ha HA! Anonymity! So why does this brave guy need that I wonder? What

group encourages that? Ken, axe this creep please. He's getting old.

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8193

> ok i missed that. i read what this group is about and feel foolish!

does that

> mean you can have a group that, what was that again " dare to be

critical without

> being accused by groupers " (i want to acknowlege right now i stole my

screen name

> from Ken Ragges book, but dont worry, he knows) but no one else can?

i thought

> this group would be a refreshing place to talk, good ideas and

looking forward.

> now my thoughts on your philosophy is there is something depressiong

about it.

> just as you feel it is neccassary to scrutinize an idea that you

already dont

> believe(?) it makes me think that your group needs to be looked at

..you say you

> want the right to be critical of a philosophy you disagree with? ME

TOO.

>

> Joe Berenbaum wrote:

>

> > At 04:26 PM 23/09/99 -0700, you wrote:

> > >you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my

point is

> > >you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated

and closed

> > >minded. i dont care if you shit all over aa, i just told you what

i read and

> > >what my immpression of this group are.

> >

> > <snipped>

> >

> > , it was quite an experience to read your original, challenging

and

> > exciting opinions of this list. We obviously have a lot to learn

from you.

> >

> > Here's a question for you; did you read the message that you got

when you

> > subscribed- the message that tells you what the purpose of this

list is?

> >

> > Let's assume you just forgot to read it. Or maybe you read it but

then you

> > forgot what it said. Here it is again. The point being- if you do

not agree

> > with the purpose of this list, why are you on it?

> >

> > >Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion list for those who have left

the

> > >groups or are seriously questioning the 12-step doctrine. It is

also for

> > >those who have a loved one caught up in the step religion. The

focus of

> > >discussion is on sharing experience with and information on the

step

> > >groups. Perhaps our most important function is to provide the first

> > >place where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a

" unanimous

> > >majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of character "

or

> > >another for doing so. Although not the focus here, information on

> > >alternative organizations and methods of resolving drinking

problems are

> > >available for the asking.

> >

> > Joe Berenbaum

> >

[Guest guest]

Ha HA! Anonymity! So why does this brave guy need that I wonder? What

group encourages that? Ken, axe this creep please. He's getting old.

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8193

> ok i missed that. i read what this group is about and feel foolish!

does that

> mean you can have a group that, what was that again " dare to be

critical without

> being accused by groupers " (i want to acknowlege right now i stole my

screen name

> from Ken Ragges book, but dont worry, he knows) but no one else can?

i thought

> this group would be a refreshing place to talk, good ideas and

looking forward.

> now my thoughts on your philosophy is there is something depressiong

about it.

> just as you feel it is neccassary to scrutinize an idea that you

already dont

> believe(?) it makes me think that your group needs to be looked at

..you say you

> want the right to be critical of a philosophy you disagree with? ME

TOO.

>

> Joe Berenbaum wrote:

>

> > At 04:26 PM 23/09/99 -0700, you wrote:

> > >you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my

point is

> > >you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated

and closed

> > >minded. i dont care if you shit all over aa, i just told you what

i read and

> > >what my immpression of this group are.

> >

> > <snipped>

> >

> > , it was quite an experience to read your original, challenging

and

> > exciting opinions of this list. We obviously have a lot to learn

from you.

> >

> > Here's a question for you; did you read the message that you got

when you

> > subscribed- the message that tells you what the purpose of this

list is?

> >

> > Let's assume you just forgot to read it. Or maybe you read it but

then you

> > forgot what it said. Here it is again. The point being- if you do

not agree

> > with the purpose of this list, why are you on it?

> >

> > >Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion list for those who have left

the

> > >groups or are seriously questioning the 12-step doctrine. It is

also for

> > >those who have a loved one caught up in the step religion. The

focus of

> > >discussion is on sharing experience with and information on the

step

> > >groups. Perhaps our most important function is to provide the first

> > >place where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a

" unanimous

> > >majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of character "

or

> > >another for doing so. Although not the focus here, information on

> > >alternative organizations and methods of resolving drinking

problems are

> > >available for the asking.

> >

> > Joe Berenbaum

> >

[Guest guest]

Ha HA! Anonymity! So why does this brave guy need that I wonder? What

group encourages that? Ken, axe this creep please. He's getting old.

gary perkins wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8193

> ok i missed that. i read what this group is about and feel foolish!

does that

> mean you can have a group that, what was that again " dare to be

critical without

> being accused by groupers " (i want to acknowlege right now i stole my

screen name

> from Ken Ragges book, but dont worry, he knows) but no one else can?

i thought

> this group would be a refreshing place to talk, good ideas and

looking forward.

> now my thoughts on your philosophy is there is something depressiong

about it.

> just as you feel it is neccassary to scrutinize an idea that you

already dont

> believe(?) it makes me think that your group needs to be looked at

..you say you

> want the right to be critical of a philosophy you disagree with? ME

TOO.

>

> Joe Berenbaum wrote:

>

> > At 04:26 PM 23/09/99 -0700, you wrote:

> > >you missed my point. i dont like aa, some peole do, who cares. my

point is

> > >you guys are the oppisite of aa and yet you both sound opionated

and closed

> > >minded. i dont care if you shit all over aa, i just told you what

i read and

> > >what my immpression of this group are.

> >

> > <snipped>

> >

> > , it was quite an experience to read your original, challenging

and

> > exciting opinions of this list. We obviously have a lot to learn

from you.

> >

> > Here's a question for you; did you read the message that you got

when you

> > subscribed- the message that tells you what the purpose of this

list is?

> >

> > Let's assume you just forgot to read it. Or maybe you read it but

then you

> > forgot what it said. Here it is again. The point being- if you do

not agree

> > with the purpose of this list, why are you on it?

> >

> > >Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion list for those who have left

the

> > >groups or are seriously questioning the 12-step doctrine. It is

also for

> > >those who have a loved one caught up in the step religion. The

focus of

> > >discussion is on sharing experience with and information on the

step

> > >groups. Perhaps our most important function is to provide the first

> > >place where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a

" unanimous

> > >majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of character "

or

> > >another for doing so. Although not the focus here, information on

> > >alternative organizations and methods of resolving drinking

problems are

> > >available for the asking.

> >

> > Joe Berenbaum

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete.

I don't like Perkins' mails more than you. But I don't think you

are doing this list a favor by your uncontrolled aggression.

This list is not a pack of wolves, and you're not my leader. You have

taken the role of moderator to often to my taste.

If 12sf is so vulnerable that it can't resist opponents, it's not worthy

saving!

And I don't comply with the dogmatic of Joe either!! The jesuits of

12sf, that's a contradiction on terms.

It all sums up with my latest invented expression: " The anglo-saxian

protestantic purity complex. "

Let's keep alive as long as possible. Trust us, we wont be harmed.

Bjørn

> Ha HA! Anonymity! So why does this brave guy need that I wonder? What

> group encourages that? Ken, axe this creep please. He's getting old.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete.

I don't like Perkins' mails more than you. But I don't think you

are doing this list a favor by your uncontrolled aggression.

This list is not a pack of wolves, and you're not my leader. You have

taken the role of moderator to often to my taste.

If 12sf is so vulnerable that it can't resist opponents, it's not worthy

saving!

And I don't comply with the dogmatic of Joe either!! The jesuits of

12sf, that's a contradiction on terms.

It all sums up with my latest invented expression: " The anglo-saxian

protestantic purity complex. "

Let's keep alive as long as possible. Trust us, we wont be harmed.

Bjørn

> Ha HA! Anonymity! So why does this brave guy need that I wonder? What

> group encourages that? Ken, axe this creep please. He's getting old.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete.

I don't like Perkins' mails more than you. But I don't think you

are doing this list a favor by your uncontrolled aggression.

This list is not a pack of wolves, and you're not my leader. You have

taken the role of moderator to often to my taste.

If 12sf is so vulnerable that it can't resist opponents, it's not worthy

saving!

And I don't comply with the dogmatic of Joe either!! The jesuits of

12sf, that's a contradiction on terms.

It all sums up with my latest invented expression: " The anglo-saxian

protestantic purity complex. "

Let's keep alive as long as possible. Trust us, we wont be harmed.

Bjørn

> Ha HA! Anonymity! So why does this brave guy need that I wonder? What

> group encourages that? Ken, axe this creep please. He's getting old.

>

[Guest guest]

At 08:20 PM 24/09/99 +0200, you wrote:

>Hi Pete.

<snip>

>And I don't comply with the dogmatic of Joe either!!

<snip>

>Bjørn

Bjorn, but does this mean me? Did I miss something?

Joe Berenbaum

[Guest guest]

your right i dont understand how this group feels it is their right to complain

about ? not just aa and then become so defensive and angry when someone

critisizes

your thoughts.you dont see the hypocracy. i find it so weird that im even

arguing

(no disscusion here) about a philosophy (12 steps) which i cant stand, and im

almost sounding like im protecting them, which im no. i am protecting my right

to

be critical of your group without being attached by your groupers, the very same

right you want. many of you wonder why 12 steppers attack you and your ideas in

their meetings, just look at what you do to an outsider. im not sure that you

even

realize that you are a group with a shared philosophy and that the groups goals

will take away the freedom you sought.

Joe Berenbaum wrote:

> At 05:56 PM 23/09/99 -0700, you wrote:

> >ok i missed that. i read what this group is about and feel foolish! does that

> >mean you can have a group that, what was that again " dare to be critical

> without

> >being accused by groupers " (i want to acknowlege right now i stole my

> screen name

> >from Ken Ragges book, but dont worry, he knows) but no one else can? i

> thought

> >this group would be a refreshing place to talk, good ideas and looking

> forward.

> >now my thoughts on your philosophy is there is something depressiong

> about it.

> >just as you feel it is neccassary to scrutinize an idea that you already dont

> >believe(?) it makes me think that your group needs to be looked at .you

> say you

> >want the right to be critical of a philosophy you disagree with? ME TOO.

>

> I don't think you quite got it that time. Try again.

>

> >Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion list for those who have left the

> >groups or are seriously questioning the 12-step doctrine. It is also for

> >those who have a loved one caught up in the step religion. The focus of

> >discussion is on sharing experience with and information on the step

> >groups. Perhaps our most important function is to provide the first

> >place where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a " unanimous

> >majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of character " or

> >another for doing so. Although not the focus here, information on

> >alternative organizations and methods of resolving drinking problems are

> >available for the asking.

>

> Joe Berenbaum

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> 2 for 1 on all Clif Bars @ healthshop.com! Buy a box of Clif Bars and

> get a second one, FREE! Good on original Clif bars and new Luna Bars.

> Only at healthshop.com! http://clickhere./click/997

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

=?iso-8859-1?q?bj=f8rn?= herring wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8212

> Hi Pete.

>

> I don't like Perkins' mails more than you. But I don't think you

> are doing this list a favor by your uncontrolled aggression.

>

> This list is not a pack of wolves, and you're not my leader. You have

> taken the role of moderator to often to my taste.

Oh no I havent. I have just done what you are doing now, i.e. saying

you dont like something, saying that it is bad for the list, and

suggesting the person stop doing it. also, this latest episode I have

been responding to SOMEONE ELSE who has beedn sayhing they dont like

something and that they dont like it and ppl should stop it - in your

terms, tryinng to be a " moderator " !

>

> If 12sf is so vulnerable that it can't resist opponents, it's not

worthy

> saving!

We have plenty of ppl out there who wouldnt wish us well - why do we

have to have them on this list? I want this list to be where I dont

have to put up with that shit.

> It all sums up with my latest invented expression: " The anglo-saxian

> protestantic purity complex. "

well, " protestant " rules mew out, but please do not use derogatory

racist phrases abt Anglo-Saxons.

>

> Let's keep alive as long as possible. Trust us, we wont be

harmed.

Other ppl can take him or leave him as they please; I want the fucker

off, and Ken IS the moderator of this list and I will accept whatever

he decides. He hgas done his troll's job of producing friction in the

list and this converstaion, and imo it's high timne we're rid of him.

[Guest guest]

=?iso-8859-1?q?bj=f8rn?= herring wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8212

> Hi Pete.

>

> I don't like Perkins' mails more than you. But I don't think you

> are doing this list a favor by your uncontrolled aggression.

>

> This list is not a pack of wolves, and you're not my leader. You have

> taken the role of moderator to often to my taste.

Oh no I havent. I have just done what you are doing now, i.e. saying

you dont like something, saying that it is bad for the list, and

suggesting the person stop doing it. also, this latest episode I have

been responding to SOMEONE ELSE who has beedn sayhing they dont like

something and that they dont like it and ppl should stop it - in your

terms, tryinng to be a " moderator " !

>

> If 12sf is so vulnerable that it can't resist opponents, it's not

worthy

> saving!

We have plenty of ppl out there who wouldnt wish us well - why do we

have to have them on this list? I want this list to be where I dont

have to put up with that shit.

> It all sums up with my latest invented expression: " The anglo-saxian

> protestantic purity complex. "

well, " protestant " rules mew out, but please do not use derogatory

racist phrases abt Anglo-Saxons.

>

> Let's keep alive as long as possible. Trust us, we wont be

harmed.

Other ppl can take him or leave him as they please; I want the fucker

off, and Ken IS the moderator of this list and I will accept whatever

he decides. He hgas done his troll's job of producing friction in the

list and this converstaion, and imo it's high timne we're rid of him.

[Guest guest]

=?iso-8859-1?q?bj=f8rn?= herring wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8212

> Hi Pete.

>

> I don't like Perkins' mails more than you. But I don't think you

> are doing this list a favor by your uncontrolled aggression.

>

> This list is not a pack of wolves, and you're not my leader. You have

> taken the role of moderator to often to my taste.

Oh no I havent. I have just done what you are doing now, i.e. saying

you dont like something, saying that it is bad for the list, and

suggesting the person stop doing it. also, this latest episode I have

been responding to SOMEONE ELSE who has beedn sayhing they dont like

something and that they dont like it and ppl should stop it - in your

terms, tryinng to be a " moderator " !

>

> If 12sf is so vulnerable that it can't resist opponents, it's not

worthy

> saving!

We have plenty of ppl out there who wouldnt wish us well - why do we

have to have them on this list? I want this list to be where I dont

have to put up with that shit.

> It all sums up with my latest invented expression: " The anglo-saxian

> protestantic purity complex. "

well, " protestant " rules mew out, but please do not use derogatory

racist phrases abt Anglo-Saxons.

>

> Let's keep alive as long as possible. Trust us, we wont be

harmed.

Other ppl can take him or leave him as they please; I want the fucker

off, and Ken IS the moderator of this list and I will accept whatever

he decides. He hgas done his troll's job of producing friction in the

list and this converstaion, and imo it's high timne we're rid of him.

[Guest guest]

I've got rid of him by deleting him from the server. That being said, I

don't see any particular reason for being polite to him. That is an

understatement. And if he's sick, he should see a doctor.

Re: Is he talking about us? Erm, do we care?

>Other ppl can take him or leave him as they please; I want the fucker

>off, and Ken IS the moderator of this list and I will accept whatever

>he decides. He hgas done his troll's job of producing friction in the

>list and this converstaion, and imo it's high timne we're rid of him.

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I've got rid of him by deleting him from the server. That being said, I

don't see any particular reason for being polite to him. That is an

understatement. And if he's sick, he should see a doctor.

Re: Is he talking about us? Erm, do we care?

>Other ppl can take him or leave him as they please; I want the fucker

>off, and Ken IS the moderator of this list and I will accept whatever

>he decides. He hgas done his troll's job of producing friction in the

>list and this converstaion, and imo it's high timne we're rid of him.

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>