Guest guest Posted October 5, 1999 Report Share Posted October 5, 1999 > What a CROCK! I am so mad! I've got to agree with you, Kim-- Actually, I think most Steppers WOULD like to get to know themselves--while in AA I sure as hell did. And to some extent they do by seeing what awful shit they've done while drunk/high and trying to deal with the repercussions of their behavior. But I don't think reliance on a Program or the Big Book is a sign of laziness at all--it is a sign that the person who is reliant on them can't trust himself or his own judgment--and where is that learned and reinforced? By the Program that claims it is the only way they can be helped. Unfortunately, telling someone newly-sober and vulnerable that the Program is the only way they can gain self-knowledge and spirituality and even a tenuous daily reprieve from alcohol or drugs is like handing someone standing in the wind a box containing a shovel, a steak knife and a book of matches and saying " these are the tools you need to build a house, and if you can't build a proper house with these tools it's your fault; the tools themselves are perfect " . Most of those folks in 12-step programs are doing their damnedest to get their houses built right, but the tools are not only inadequate, they have nothing to do with housebuilding in the first place. I spent over four years in AA " working on myself " , " trying to find myself " . It wasn't until after I left that I finally realized most of that hard work was either completely unnecessary or could have been done in an " easier, softer way " . I could have used a circular saw instead of a frigging steak knife. One of the hardest-working AAs I ever met ended up killing himself. He genuinely wanted to change and improve, and reading Kim's description of her workaholism for NA sounds just like 's story. He did everything he was supposed to do, and then he did more. More service commitments, more H & I work. He subjected himself to ruthless, constant self-examination, analyzing all of his motives, trying to change what he saw as " defective " within himself, and he just couldn't handle it. He couldn't turn around without being forced to look in a distorted mirror at himself, but he never questioned the mirror--he just kept distorting himself, hoping his reflection would eventually look normal. It never occurred to him that he could go look in another mirror besides the one AA held up, so convinced was he that the mirror was perfect. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 1999 Report Share Posted October 6, 1999 Kim, thank you for your feedback. I don't pretend to be right about everything and its good to get an honest reaction to my posts. Rather than to have a bunch of people kissing my ass. I kind of have a love-hate relationship with AA and other 12 step groups. I think about my past involvement with AA every day of my life and feel enormous guilt about not being in the program all the time. And for me, that's where the problem lies. If I am so dependent on a program for an identitiy that's a pretty sad statement about my life. For me, personally, the easy thing would be to return to AA, get a sponsor, hang out with the fellowship and " turn it over. " But I've worked too hard on my own to keep a job, be financially independent,not drink, and better myself. Facing the prospect of returning to a program that tells me 'everything I do on my own is wrong' is horrifying. I could go to a meeting tonight and at 9 months sober here people call me a " newcomer " and have a sponsor tell me that I don't know shit. Maybe it is ego. I admit I have a sense of pride in my accomplishments. And I am proud of the fact that I've been able to form a life all by myself despite the fact that my parents, teachers, family and counselors have been trying to commit me to rehab, medicate me or put me in a support group for most my life. I admit that a lot of people that enter 12 step groups really, truly want to stop suffering and get better. The fault lies in the program. I speak from experience. The times I've gone to AA I've really wanted to change my life and stop screwing up. But 12 step groups don't teach you how to change behavioral patterns. All they do is have its members focus on their drinking history, all the people they screwed over while drunk and trying to stay sober. What kind of people do I like to be around? > What kind of career suits my goals and personality? > What can I do to help myself feel better in a healthy >way? My comment about 'what kind of people do I like to be around' mainly stems from how AA forces you to socialize and pretend to like other people who you have nothing in common with besides your drinking history. The career que. regards how a lot of AA members decide they can't handle the real world and would rather do full time service work i.e. become counselors or work within the program. And the last question regards how most members would rather ask a sponsor or other AA member or the big book how to feel better rather than trying to answer that question themselves. Kim said... Aaaargh! What a CROCK! How arrogant! > I workde like a DOG the last 5 years I was in >NA(yes, 5 YEARS!Aargh!) This reminds me of when I was >in a long-term " treatment " centre(6-9 months), going >to minimum 3 NA/week (I did 5), plus daily 2 hour > " group " , plus " codependency " group twice a week for I don't have any experience with NA. Maybe its different than AA or Alanon. Like I said, I am just going by my experience with 12 step groups. I do know, that when I first tried to get better several years ago I ran around like crazy to meetings, outpatient groups, therapy, etc.etc... As if I was running from myself. Really, what was happening was I was scared shitless. And fear is a great motivator. And action becomes easy when your'e under the gun. The real test comes when the cloud has lifted and the fear is gone. And that's where XA programs fail people. I went from fear (pre-AA) to hope (AA) to bitterness(post AA). And I know I'm not the only one. Again, thanks for your feedback. I try not to come off as arrogant. Sometimes my bitterness towards AA comes out on its members. I should focus on the program rather than its messengers. Matt > What a CROCK! I am so mad! > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Matt-those lazy AAers >Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:35:44 -0700 (PDT) > >I don't have any experience with NA. Maybe its different than AA or >Alanon. What a CROCK! I am so mad! > > MD Matt says: > > " I still believe what makes AA click is that it's >members really don't want to put the work in it takes >to maintain relationships and find fulfillment in >life. It's hard to try to answer the following >questions: > > What kind of people do I like to be around? > What kind of career suits my goals and personality? > What can I do to help myself feel better in a healthy >way? > > Getting to know yourself can be brutally hard. And I >think most AA members would rather avoid that reality. >So, for them, having a sponsor tell them what to do >and a book that tells them how to live is like an >easy out for them. They don't have to do the hard >work. They don't have to make tough decisions. >Someone or something else will do it for them. " > > Aaaargh! What a CROCK! How arrogant! > I workde like a DOG the last 5 years I was in >NA(yes, 5 YEARS!Aargh!) This reminds me of when I was >in a long-term " treatment " centre(6-9 months), going >to minimum 3 NA/week (I did 5), plus daily 2 hour > " group " , plus " codependency " group twice a week for >two hours, plus written assignments such as your life >history, Step 1, Step 2,3, Step 4- write down >everything you ever did wrong in your whole life- this >took 1/2- 1 hour a DAY for several MONTHS!) plus daily >chores, plus daily " meditation " ,plus NA service work, >plus a " job " housecleaning the treatment centre- and >they had the GALL to say I wasn't working hard enough >at my " recovery " !Ha! > > In NA I became a deadly serious workaholic because >they finally convinced me that if I ever let up on >working hard I would relapse and DIE. ( " Half measures >avail us nothing " , " We keep what we have only with >vigilance " , " Complacency is the enemy " ,etc) > > I was chairperson, treasurer, AND GSR of my group >all at once, at the same time I had a sponsee from >hell. > > The vast majority of people in NA , even the jerks, >are sincerely trying to better themselves/ their lives >and do work at it. The sad thing is that the harder >you work at the steps the LESS you will succeed at >being happy, successful, etc. > > AA/NAers don't have to make tough decisions? >NONSENSE. I've seen single mothers turn their kids >over to Children's Aid so they could focus on >their " recovery " , a guy turn himself in to prison time >as part of his Step 9, and countless people give up >their friends and family. Furthermore, EVERY decision >is a tough on when the outcome supposedly is " God's >will- you live " or " not God's will- you die " . > > Getting to know yourself can be brutally hard? I >doubt it. Your 3 questions are good ones, but a hell >of a lot easier than the MOUNDS of Painful crap I have >seen NA members go through. Besides, a lot of AA and >NAers actually HAVE spent quite a bit of time >pondering those questions you asked. Your questions >are not " brutally hard " . Brutally hard is the woman >who switched from AA to NA because a man at AA had >raped her. Brutally hard is the woman who had to face >the fact that when she was high she would chase after >her kid with a whip in her hand. Brutally hard is >coming down sideways from heroine. Brutally hard is >finding out you now have aids because of intravenous >drug use.Etc. > > What makes AA click is that people want support for >getting sober and they get tricked by mind control >techniques into believing 12 step crap. It is AA that >tells them they can't really help themselves. > > Don't forget that AA is run almost entirely by it's >members- if they were really as lazy as you say, there >would be no AA. > > And if someone from a screwed up family wants to >read books about what it's like to be healthy, so >what? More power to 'em. As if you have never read a >self-help book. > > Give me a break. > > > Kim. > >===== > >__________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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