Re: cannot imagine going back to AA

October 15, 1999

That, my friend, is one of the most wisest statements that I have ever

heard.

Thanks!

dmarcoot@... wrote:

> i agree with your sentiment. i woudl probably want to punch the 1st

> person who would tell me i am powerless over my " cunning, baffling

> disease " . (only thing cunning or baffling is way aa programs that

> nonsense and never has its bluff called).

> today i am Empowered by my descion to not drink. i'd rather be

> empowered than a helpless, whining, perptetualy sick drone praying for

> something else to take responsibility.

>

> blackeyedsuz-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8626

> > I have trouble understanding why anyone would voluntarily return to

> AA.

> > I have been away from it for almost nine years. It took me years to

> > get my life back. Today I am happy, self-confident and more interested

> > in other people's problems then my own. None of these characteristics

> > were true when I was in AA. I feel so fortunate to have broken my

> ties

> > with that sick cult I cannot imagine going back to being an insecure,

> > self-centered little AA robot.

> > I wish the media would start revealing the truth about AA and other

> > twelve step programs, but alas that probably will never happen. I

> feel

> > so bad for all the new intiates pumped into AA every day thru the

> > treatment centers and uneducated doctors. Wish I could do more to

> stop

> > the madness!!!!!!! For anyone considering going back to AA, just hang

> > on a little longer. It took me a few years to become a normal person

> > again. Even if you do drink it's not the end of the world. You don't

> > have to be an AA self-fulfilling prophecy. I am living proof that

> life

> > improves dramatically when you throw AA out of your life.

> >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

--

Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable of

giving pleasure to thousands---and all you can do is scratch it.

SIR THOMAS BEECHAM, TO AN UNTALENTED WOMAN CELLIST

October 15, 1999

That, my friend, is one of the most wisest statements that I have ever

heard.

Thanks!

dmarcoot@... wrote:

> i agree with your sentiment. i woudl probably want to punch the 1st

> person who would tell me i am powerless over my " cunning, baffling

> disease " . (only thing cunning or baffling is way aa programs that

> nonsense and never has its bluff called).

> today i am Empowered by my descion to not drink. i'd rather be

> empowered than a helpless, whining, perptetualy sick drone praying for

> something else to take responsibility.

>

> blackeyedsuz-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8626

> > I have trouble understanding why anyone would voluntarily return to

> AA.

> > I have been away from it for almost nine years. It took me years to

> > get my life back. Today I am happy, self-confident and more interested

> > in other people's problems then my own. None of these characteristics

> > were true when I was in AA. I feel so fortunate to have broken my

> ties

> > with that sick cult I cannot imagine going back to being an insecure,

> > self-centered little AA robot.

> > I wish the media would start revealing the truth about AA and other

> > twelve step programs, but alas that probably will never happen. I

> feel

> > so bad for all the new intiates pumped into AA every day thru the

> > treatment centers and uneducated doctors. Wish I could do more to

> stop

> > the madness!!!!!!! For anyone considering going back to AA, just hang

> > on a little longer. It took me a few years to become a normal person

> > again. Even if you do drink it's not the end of the world. You don't

> > have to be an AA self-fulfilling prophecy. I am living proof that

> life

> > improves dramatically when you throw AA out of your life.

> >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

--

Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable of

giving pleasure to thousands---and all you can do is scratch it.

SIR THOMAS BEECHAM, TO AN UNTALENTED WOMAN CELLIST

October 15, 1999

Thanks' suzy for this post. It really inspired me. I've been going few a

very troubling time connecting with people. I have a level of lonliness and

detachment right now that is terrifying. And I've become so desperate that

returning to AA is looking like a good option.

I've realized something about myself from your post. You described

how you've become more interested in other people after AA. And that you

are no longer a self centered AA person. I couldn't agree more with that

assessment of AA members. I think the 12 step program encourages people to

wallow in their own problems. I cannot really blame the members. I think

its the fault of the steps. They tell newcomers to focus on themselves and

forget the rest of the world. And I don't know a person on this planet who

when looking at themselves, won't find something to feel ashamed about.

Its just not healthy. And it destroys your self esteem. I speak from

personal experience. For years, I studied myself ad nauseuam. I wrote out

long inventories of all the embarrassing stuff I'd done. I told other

people about it. And guess what? I was still terribly depressed and

suicidal at one year sober. The problem was I had no interest in other

people. All I worried about was myself. And I learned that's ok from AA,

Alanon and ACOA.

Without going on and on about this, I just have to say you really hit

the nail on the head. AA members can't see beyond their bad habits. They

crucify themselves for their supposed " sins. " Meaning, their drinking

history and the awful things they did before AA. And the guilt they feel

about the fact the actually enjoyed getting drunk and miss the temporary

relief they got from it.

I think an injustice is done to AA newcomers. They are made to feel

ten times worse for their mistakes. They deserve better. They deserve to

be understood. Instead they are told to apologize for their sins and give

themselves to god. And never,ever lie again.

How unrealistic is that!!!!! AA says never get angry, never get

lonely, never lie, never lust, never get jealous, never resent.

Essentially, never be a human being. I think feeling lust,jealousy, anger

and lying out of fear is part of being human. I've had to accept it and

stop hammering myself over it. I'll lust, I'll covet a married women, I'll

hate someone. Big deal. Its how I react to those emotions that counts. If

I dwell on what I do wrong or impure thoughts that I have I'd never leave

the house.

I hope some of this makes sense. Really, the reason I'm fighting

like hell not to return to AA is I think its a harder road to take than

toughing it out own my own. I could go to AA and try to connect to people

their. And have a lot of trouble because you can't connect to self absorbed

people.

The easier or more healthy road is for me to try to quit focusing on

myself and my flaws and try to get into other people. And forgive them for

not being perfect and understanding their flaws. And not bailing on them

when they screw up or telling them to join a 12 step group. So, I'm gonna

fight that urge as long as I can, the urge to return to a program that has

failed me repeatadly. And try to keep working my ass off to get a family of

my own and friends and quit judging my family and society for their " moral

failings. "

I read somewhere that 'we reflect on to other people what we think of

ourselves.' So, if we see ourselves as being bad or sick if because of our

mistakes, we will see everyone else in the world as bad because of their

vices. What a terrible way to see the world.

It'll take me a long time to recover from my 12 step involvement. I

may never get it out of my head. But it sure as hell won't help if I return

to AA. Thanks, Matt

>From: blackeyedsuzy@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

>Subject: cannot imagine going back to AA

>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:41:04 -0700

>

>I have trouble understanding why anyone would voluntarily return to AA.

> I have been away from it for almost nine years. It took me years to

>get my life back. Today I am happy, self-confident and more interested

>in other people's problems then my own. None of these characteristics

>were true when I was in AA. I feel so fortunate to have broken my ties

>with that sick cult I cannot imagine going back to being an insecure,

>self-centered little AA robot.

>I wish the media would start revealing the truth about AA and other

>twelve step programs, but alas that probably will never happen. I feel

>so bad for all the new intiates pumped into AA every day thru the

>treatment centers and uneducated doctors. Wish I could do more to stop

>the madness!!!!!!! For anyone considering going back to AA, just hang

>on a little longer. It took me a few years to become a normal person

>again. Even if you do drink it's not the end of the world. You don't

>have to be an AA self-fulfilling prophecy. I am living proof that life

>improves dramatically when you throw AA out of your life.

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

______________________________________________________

October 17, 1999

Hi

Matt, I don't get on line much so I am slow responding. Thanks for

your post.

It sounds like the worst place for you would be an AA meeting. Boy,

want to feel lonely and isolated, some of those AAer's really know how

to bring a person down. I remember when I quit smoking and all the

nasty remarks I got. You see I went to a non-smoking non-caffeine

drinking group. They were brutal with me when I mentioned I was having

trouble quitting. I got remarks like, " you make a descision to quit

and you quit, what's the problem " and " don't dump this on us, go to

smoke enders " and one woman said I had a friend once who smoked, I

don't know why, since I hate people who smoke " . Needless to say, I

couldn't quit smoking until I quit AA.

I went thru a few years of confusion and self doubt, but in the end I

have to admit I have never been happier then I am now. AA just

reinforces the feelings of loneliness since they are always telling you

that you don't fit into the real world only into their world. When I

left AA I wished that there were proffesional AA deprogramers to

straighten out my brain washed thinking. Hmmm good idea creating a new

career. Take care.

" md matt " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8638

> Thanks' suzy for this post. It really inspired me. I've been going

few a

> very troubling time connecting with people. I have a level of

lonliness and

> detachment right now that is terrifying. And I've become so

desperate that

> returning to AA is looking like a good option.

> I've realized something about myself from your post. You

described

> how you've become more interested in other people after AA. And that

you

> are no longer a self centered AA person. I couldn't agree more with

that

> assessment of AA members. I think the 12 step program encourages

people to

> wallow in their own problems. I cannot really blame the members. I

think

> its the fault of the steps. They tell newcomers to focus on

themselves and

> forget the rest of the world. And I don't know a person on this

planet who

> when looking at themselves, won't find something to feel ashamed

about.

> Its just not healthy. And it destroys your self esteem. I

speak from

> personal experience. For years, I studied myself ad nauseuam. I

wrote out

> long inventories of all the embarrassing stuff I'd done. I told

other

> people about it. And guess what? I was still terribly depressed and

> suicidal at one year sober. The problem was I had no interest in

other

> people. All I worried about was myself. And I learned that's ok

from AA,

> Alanon and ACOA.

> Without going on and on about this, I just have to say you

really hit

> the nail on the head. AA members can't see beyond their bad habits.

They

> crucify themselves for their supposed " sins. " Meaning, their

drinking

> history and the awful things they did before AA. And the guilt they

feel

> about the fact the actually enjoyed getting drunk and miss the

temporary

> relief they got from it.

> I think an injustice is done to AA newcomers. They are made to

feel

> ten times worse for their mistakes. They deserve better. They

deserve to

> be understood. Instead they are told to apologize for their sins and

give

> themselves to god. And never,ever lie again.

> How unrealistic is that!!!!! AA says never get angry, never get

> lonely, never lie, never lust, never get jealous, never resent.

> Essentially, never be a human being. I think feeling lust,jealousy,

anger

> and lying out of fear is part of being human. I've had to accept it

and

> stop hammering myself over it. I'll lust, I'll covet a married

women, I'll

> hate someone. Big deal. Its how I react to those emotions that

counts. If

> I dwell on what I do wrong or impure thoughts that I have I'd never

leave

> the house.

> I hope some of this makes sense. Really, the reason I'm

fighting

> like hell not to return to AA is I think its a harder road to take

than

> toughing it out own my own. I could go to AA and try to connect to

people

> their. And have a lot of trouble because you can't connect to self

absorbed

> people.

> The easier or more healthy road is for me to try to quit

focusing on

> myself and my flaws and try to get into other people. And forgive

them for

> not being perfect and understanding their flaws. And not bailing on

them

> when they screw up or telling them to join a 12 step group. So, I'm

gonna

> fight that urge as long as I can, the urge to return to a program

that has

> failed me repeatadly. And try to keep working my ass off to get a

family of

> my own and friends and quit judging my family and society for their

" moral

> failings. "

> I read somewhere that 'we reflect on to other people what we

think of

> ourselves.' So, if we see ourselves as being bad or sick if because

of our

> mistakes, we will see everyone else in the world as bad because of

their

> vices. What a terrible way to see the world.

> It'll take me a long time to recover from my 12 step

involvement. I

> may never get it out of my head. But it sure as hell won't help if I

return

> to AA. Thanks, Matt

>

> >From: blackeyedsuzy@...

> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >To: 12-step-freeeGroups

> >Subject: cannot imagine going back to AA

> >Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:41:04 -0700

> >

> >I have trouble understanding why anyone would voluntarily return to

AA.

> > I have been away from it for almost nine years. It took me years

to

> >get my life back. Today I am happy, self-confident and more

interested

> >in other people's problems then my own. None of these

characteristics

> >were true when I was in AA. I feel so fortunate to have broken my

ties

> >with that sick cult I cannot imagine going back to being an insecure,

> >self-centered little AA robot.

> >I wish the media would start revealing the truth about AA and other

> >twelve step programs, but alas that probably will never happen. I

feel

> >so bad for all the new intiates pumped into AA every day thru the

> >treatment centers and uneducated doctors. Wish I could do more to

stop

> >the madness!!!!!!! For anyone considering going back to AA, just hang

> >on a little longer. It took me a few years to become a normal person

> >again. Even if you do drink it's not the end of the world. You

don't

> >have to be an AA self-fulfilling prophecy. I am living proof that

life

> >improves dramatically when you throw AA out of your life.

> >

October 17, 1999