Re: Comparing The Forum, est, Zen, AA, RR etc.

October 28, 1999

Hey Apple,

(I started writing and it got longer and longer)

I used to go to " The Yard " as Clancy's backyard is commonly known. I

actually liked going. I liked playing volleyball and eating " yard

dogs " . It was fun. I hadn't had much fun during sobriety before that.

Of course, sobriety might have had something to do with that. I thought

it was only right for us to rake and pick up shit and all of that since

we were using his yard after all. I did not like that it was the

women's responsabilty to prep and prepare the food which including

barbequeing (i'm surprised such a dangerous job was left up to us) But

this was only fair since the men did the big repair jobs and thorough

cleanings, etc. It was a natural division of labor. Except this wasn't

1950. It's 19999, the eve of the millineum (can't spell) and i felt

like i was in Ozzy and Harriet. We had to do some Catholic prayer

before lunch. It's his house and he's catholic so what the hey. it's

not a religious program and you don't have to do that stuff, but most

sponsors in PG or at the " good " ones, make their new " babies " go to the

yard and as another sponsor I had was fond of saying, " Would you rather

be right or comfortable? "

I knew back then, though,that if those people ever found out what I

really thought about things (the world--politics,etc) they chuck me

outta there so fast..Environments like these are where stonings happen:

demigogues, blind faith, strict obedience, etc.

I realize that not all of AA was like that. But this seemed the best

AA had to offer. At least the volleyball was fun. The last time I was

at the yard, though, I saw a guy with a huge white supremacist tatoo on

his arm. Now I know white men in prisons get involved in gangs for

protection and people change and all of that.(not once a racist always

a racist) But I just thought to myself: how much are you gonna take.

You sit still and don't get up when Clany and the other jolly old

timers make they little racist jokes: " just poking fun " You watch while

young women are being taught how to " walk like a lady " by their

sponsors. I knew people who couldn't take a sh** without asking their

sponsors. And those were the " Winners " . Is it really wrong to be

angry??? No, It's good to get angry and call out stuff that's wrong.I

knew I was losing myself in their mire but I didn't want to lose all of

myself. My first PG sponsor told me that brainwashing was a good thing.

We needed our brains washed. And she was a PhD in Neurolinguist Studies

or something like that!

Those people are good people. Well, most of them. It's just that

the pressure to confrom is so great. I don't think they mind so much

that people are atheists. Cuase they are certain they will be able to

convert you. it's when you can't even find a simple higher power that

you get grief. I just started agreeing with my last sponsor. Higher

Power? Sure. Fine. It's in the center of my belly? Okay. Get on my

knees and say the 3rd step prayer? When do we start. You say that you

can tell my future through reading Tarot cards? Boy am I lucky.

What was the point? Oh yeah, do you get static if you're an

athiests. Well, the WHOLE program is about god. That's what I learned

going through the book this last time. Cause I wasn't " getting " it so I

needed to be taken through the book. And I did " get " it. Bill or Bob or

Dick or whoever it is -- state in no uncertain terms what the basis of

the program is. So, no, it's not the Spanish Inquisition. But who needs

that when you're the only show in town.

I could be wrong about the dog poop business. It was really just

another ritual like thanking Clancy when you take your cake at Wenesday

night. Cause you don't need 60 people to clean up a backyard.I did like

the whole collective aspect to some things. It's kinda how I view the

Amish. I like that they do those barn raising things together, but I

don't wanna live without electricity.

-kiki

appledt-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8878

> , this is hilarious. I almost choked on my dinner reading it. How

> much is an airline ticket from Montreal to So. Cal. so our friend can

> visit the Pacifica Group? Sir, you haven't lived until you've gotten

> humble by picking up Clancy the AA guru's dog's poop from his yard, in

> an effort to demonstrate to the Man Himself, your unquestioning

> humility and obedience; your willingness to b-e-n-d over backwards and

> t-w-i-s-t yourself into postion, to c-o-n-f-o-r-m in every way

> possible, with your mind, body, and spirit, so that the very essence

of

> your soul beats-beats-beats to the goose-steppin' tempo of the

doctrine

> of Alcoholics Anonymous.

>

> Apple

>

> > Dude,

> >

> > A Big Book thumper is all it takes. I have attended meetings all

over

> > the world and have yet to encounter a place where AA subscribes to

the

> > temperate attitudes you have described. Perhaps Canada is the

> exception

> > to the rule. Don't let the word get out, or you may see a mass

> migration

> > of U.S. citizens flooding across the border to escape AA atrocities

in

> > the States in order to seek recovery in the great white north. It'll

> be

> > the biggest exodus since the Vietnam War.

> >

> > I implore you to attend a few meetings in Southern California. Then

> you

> > will see what we are all talking about, and why we are so pissed.

Then

> > again. Why put yourself through it. Just take my word for it, and

> enjoy

> > yourself where you are.

> >

> > I agree it would be wonderful to get to where you're at with the

whole

> > thing, but here at step free you are dealing with people who have

been

> > badly abused by the membership of this seemingly benign

organization.

> >

> > For now, many just need to debrief, decompress, and deprogram after

> > years of exposure to AA's deceitful philosophy and followers. The AA

> you

> > speak of is a completely different animal than we have encountered.

> >

>

October 28, 1999

I believe that AA helped me

> in many ways because it brought me into contact with many people I

> liked, and with whom I could talk openly and honestly.

> -

Hi ,

This is another sentence that blew my mind. Just the last part. It's

clear to me that either we went to a different AA, you have some sort

of special immunity, are merely an AA apologist out for a laugh, or are

bucking for sainthood. Which is it?

October 28, 1999

I believe that AA helped me

> in many ways because it brought me into contact with many people I

> liked, and with whom I could talk openly and honestly.

> -

Hi ,

This is another sentence that blew my mind. Just the last part. It's

clear to me that either we went to a different AA, you have some sort

of special immunity, are merely an AA apologist out for a laugh, or are

bucking for sainthood. Which is it?

October 28, 1999

Wow Kiki! You went to " The Yard " . Wow! Do you think I could get into

the yard?

It seems so scary! eeeeeeeee Just in time for Halloween...

Apple

> Hey Apple,

> (I started writing and it got longer and longer)

> I used to go to " The Yard " as Clancy's backyard is commonly known.

October 28, 1999

Wow Kiki! You went to " The Yard " . Wow! Do you think I could get into

the yard?

It seems so scary! eeeeeeeee Just in time for Halloween...

Apple

> Hey Apple,

> (I started writing and it got longer and longer)

> I used to go to " The Yard " as Clancy's backyard is commonly known.

October 28, 1999

For me, AA brought me into contact with many people. Some of them I

liked, most of them I was afraid of or at least wary of. I could talk

openly and honestly to a **very** few of them. Some of those people

are still my friends. I think that one of the switches in AA is that

it maintains that when people view their life according to the AA

model, they are being rigorously honest, but if they see their lives

according to a different model (the truth for example), they haven't

" gotten honest " yet. This is a major mind game. The only honesty which

can exist is the one in which one finds the teachings of the program to

be true. Finding it false is a sign of dishonesty. So true honesty in

AA is seen as dishonesty.

Apple

john hollister wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8891

> I believe that AA helped me

> > in many ways because it brought me into contact with many people I

> > liked, and with whom I could talk openly and honestly.

>

> > -

>

> Hi ,

> This is another sentence that blew my mind. Just the last part. It's

> clear to me that either we went to a different AA, you have some

sort

> of special immunity, are merely an AA apologist out for a laugh, or

are

> bucking for sainthood. Which is it?

>

October 28, 1999