Re: Question for ANDY re: Malic Acid to chelate Aluminum

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/30/02 5:35:18 PM Central Daylight Time,

owczarzak@... writes:

> 1. What would be the appropriate dose for a 41 lb. child?

Figure 30% to 1/3 of the dosage listed on the bottle.

>> 2. Would you give this dosage daily? (we are also chelating with DMSA and

> ALA, 25 mg each, every 3 hours, 3 days " ON " and 4 days " OFF " for the other

> heavy metals, so didn't know if it would be advisable to use the Malic acid

> during the 3 " ON " days of DMSA/ALA, or if best to limit it to the 4 " OFF "

> days).

>

When we were using this, our doc recommended to give it twice daily but not

to take it on days he was taking a rx chelator. We both took it continuously

for about a year, except for during DMSA or DMPS days.

> Also, one question about Vit. A: besides the 2500 IU's he's getting in his

> CLO, I want to follow your advice in increasing his daily Vit. A intake.

> Just bought one that says " each softgel has 10,000 IU of Vit.A from Retinyl

> Palmitate " . Is this an acceptable/good " source " for this additional Vit. A

> each day?

>

If you are following Dr. Megson's CLO protocol, you will want to eliminate

all palmitate sources of vitamin A since she's found kids who respond to the

protocol cannot handle the palmitate form of vitamin A. You also need to

limit other sources so you don't stress the liver with a vitamin A overdose.

I'm not sure why Andy suggested you add more vitamin A, but if you must,

stick with the beta carotene form since it typically doesn't create a

toxicity on overdose like regular vit A can. Either way though, I'd be

really careful about dosing too high. Check Dr. Megson's research on this on

the ARI website.

Gaylen

[Guest guest]

> Based on hair testing, we know that our son is also dealing with

high

> Aluminum levels, and wanted to add Malic Acid to help chelate the

Aluminum.

> Just wondering a couple of things before adding this into the mix:

The aluminum will go down when the mercury does. It is an artifact of

mercury.

> 1. What would be the appropriate dose for a 41 lb. child?

> 2. Would you give this dosage daily? (we are also chelating with

DMSA and

> ALA, 25 mg each, every 3 hours, 3 days " ON " and 4 days " OFF " for the

other

> heavy metals, so didn't know if it would be advisable to use the

Malic acid

> during the 3 " ON " days of DMSA/ALA, or if best to limit it to the 4

" OFF "

> days).

I don't know for the above questions.

> Also, one question about Vit. A: besides the 2500 IU's he's getting

in his

> CLO, I want to follow your advice in increasing his daily Vit. A

intake.

> Just bought one that says " each softgel has 10,000 IU of Vit.A from

Retinyl

> Palmitate " . Is this an acceptable/good " source " for this additional

Vit. A

> each day?

Yes. Use 2 or 3 of these daily.

> As always, thank you in advance for your help.

>

> Appreciatively,

>

..................

[Guest guest]

> I'm not sure why Andy suggested you add more vitamin A, but if you

must,

> stick with the beta carotene form since it typically doesn't create

a

> toxicity on overdose like regular vit A can.

I suggest it because, unlike the Megson protocol, it actually works.

An overdose of vitamin A for a kid this size is a couple of hundred

thousand units a day for months on end.

Perhaps some vitamin A protocols are ineffective because MD's are so

scared of vitamins they think the toxic dose is 1% of what it really

is.

Just for amusement, you may all go ask any MD you want whether it is

OK to give a little baby 200,000 IU of vitamin A one day. When they

gasp " NO! " you can ask them why the world health organization does

this with literally tens of millions of infants worldwide (it is

completely safe).

Then you can shock them further and ask what you call a doctor who

prescribes a quarter to a half million IU a day for months on end.

Answer: dermatologist. This is what all the dermatologists used to do

before Accutane and its relatives were invented.

The only real problem with vitamin A supplementation in autism is

nobody uses anywhere near enough. They're all afraid of it because

they never studied it and a lot of rumor and innuendo is tossed around

in hopes of keeping people from using over the counter, safe, natural

substances instead of prescription, dangerous, synethic, EXPENSIVE

substances.

Reasonable amounts of vitamin A to give children are 1,000-2,000 IU

per kilogram of kid (roughly 500-1000 IU per pound) per day. Any form

that starts with retino-xxx works fine. Carotenes don't.

The RISK of vitamin A is that it is teratogenic so women who are or

might become pregnant need to keep intake below 10,000 IU a day, and

not get pregnant until they cut back on any higher dosing for a couple

of months. Since most of the children we are discussing are boys, and

most of them also haven't gone through puberty yet, this is a problem

only a few of you will need to consider.

Riddle me this: how can so many MD's be scared out of their wits about

using reasonably small amounts of vitamin A, but be totally cavalier

and careless in things like chelator administration protocol, slinging

around all kinds of liver toxic antifungals, handing out ritalin and

other schedule 2 controlled substances to kids for years on end,

shooting them full of vaccines the doc's don't even know what the

contents of, etc?

Andy . . . .

[Guest guest]

Ok Andy, simmer down, I didn't mean to get you all worked up . Are you

detoxing again, or just get up on the wrong side of the bed? I wasn't

questioning your recommendation for vitamin A in a negative way, just saying

that I missed the original message where you suggested it so I didn't know

why you were recommending it. One thing I would like to comment on though,

you said:

> I suggest it because, unlike the Megson protocol, it actually works.

>

I'm not sure what you mean by this but a tremendous number of kids are

responding very well to Megson's CLO protocol which takes out all palmitate

forms of A. My child is one of those. If he gets palmitate A or misses his

CLO dose, he obviously loses the ability to converge his eyes well and after

several days, tracking ability decreases. It will be wonderful when they

create a test to check for G-alpha protein defect from the DPT so we can know

which kids will respond to this.

> An overdose of vitamin A for a kid this size is a couple of hundred

> thousand units a day for months on end.

>

I think this depends on the child. When my son was very toxic, more than the

RDA of vitamin A would lead to regressions and cause nighttime

wakenings/2-4am parties. In hindsight, we could have been using the

palmitate form, but I don't recall. He was ok on beta carotene though. This

may be different than the A toxicity nutritionists refer to but I have seen

it in many toxic and/or autistic kids.

Even with that experience, I do understand how Vit A therapy can be very

helpful in many illnesses and we do use it in higher doses when appropriate.

Gaylen

[Guest guest]

Gaylen and Andy,

What do you think of vit A acetate? This is the form in Kirkman's Super Nu

Thera.

Thanks,

kathy

Re: [ ] Re: Question for ANDY re: Malic Acid to chelate

Aluminum

Ok Andy, simmer down, I didn't mean to get you all worked up . Are you

detoxing again, or just get up on the wrong side of the bed? I wasn't

questioning your recommendation for vitamin A in a negative way, just saying

that I missed the original message where you suggested it so I didn't know

why you were recommending it. One thing I would like to comment on though,

you said:

> I suggest it because, unlike the Megson protocol, it actually works.

>

I'm not sure what you mean by this but a tremendous number of kids are

responding very well to Megson's CLO protocol which takes out all palmitate

forms of A. My child is one of those. If he gets palmitate A or misses his

CLO dose, he obviously loses the ability to converge his eyes well and after

several days, tracking ability decreases. It will be wonderful when they

create a test to check for G-alpha protein defect from the DPT so we can know

which kids will respond to this.

> An overdose of vitamin A for a kid this size is a couple of hundred

> thousand units a day for months on end.

>

I think this depends on the child. When my son was very toxic, more than the

RDA of vitamin A would lead to regressions and cause nighttime

wakenings/2-4am parties. In hindsight, we could have been using the

palmitate form, but I don't recall. He was ok on beta carotene though. This

may be different than the A toxicity nutritionists refer to but I have seen

it in many toxic and/or autistic kids.

Even with that experience, I do understand how Vit A therapy can be very

helpful in many illnesses and we do use it in higher doses when appropriate.

Gaylen

[Guest guest]

Gaylen,

Under what circumstances do you use high doses of Vit A with kids? What dose do

you consider high?

kathy

Re: [ ] Re: Question for ANDY re: Malic Acid to chelate

Aluminum

Ok Andy, simmer down, I didn't mean to get you all worked up . Are you

detoxing again, or just get up on the wrong side of the bed? I wasn't

questioning your recommendation for vitamin A in a negative way, just saying

that I missed the original message where you suggested it so I didn't know

why you were recommending it. One thing I would like to comment on though,

you said:

> I suggest it because, unlike the Megson protocol, it actually works.

>

I'm not sure what you mean by this but a tremendous number of kids are

responding very well to Megson's CLO protocol which takes out all palmitate

forms of A. My child is one of those. If he gets palmitate A or misses his

CLO dose, he obviously loses the ability to converge his eyes well and after

several days, tracking ability decreases. It will be wonderful when they

create a test to check for G-alpha protein defect from the DPT so we can know

which kids will respond to this.

> An overdose of vitamin A for a kid this size is a couple of hundred

> thousand units a day for months on end.

>

I think this depends on the child. When my son was very toxic, more than the

RDA of vitamin A would lead to regressions and cause nighttime

wakenings/2-4am parties. In hindsight, we could have been using the

palmitate form, but I don't recall. He was ok on beta carotene though. This

may be different than the A toxicity nutritionists refer to but I have seen

it in many toxic and/or autistic kids.

Even with that experience, I do understand how Vit A therapy can be very

helpful in many illnesses and we do use it in higher doses when appropriate.

Gaylen

[Guest guest]

> Ok Andy, simmer down, I didn't mean to get you all worked up .

Are you

> detoxing again, or just get up on the wrong side of the bed? I

wasn't

> questioning your recommendation for vitamin A in a negative way,

just saying

> that I missed the original message where you suggested it so I

didn't know

> why you were recommending it. One thing I would like to comment on

though,

> you said:

>

> > I suggest it because, unlike the Megson protocol, it actually

works.

> >

> I'm not sure what you mean by this but a tremendous number of kids

are

> responding very well to Megson's CLO protocol which takes out all

palmitate

> forms of A. My child is one of those. If he gets palmitate A or

misses his

> CLO dose, he obviously loses the ability to converge his eyes well

and after

> several days, tracking ability decreases. It will be wonderful when

they

> create a test to check for G-alpha protein defect from the DPT so we

can know

> which kids will respond to this.

>

>

> > An overdose of vitamin A for a kid this size is a couple of

hundred

> > thousand units a day for months on end.

> >

>

> I think this depends on the child. When my son was very toxic, more

than the

> RDA of vitamin A would lead to regressions and cause nighttime

> wakenings/2-4am parties. In hindsight, we could have been using the

> palmitate form, but I don't recall. He was ok on beta carotene

though. This

> may be different than the A toxicity nutritionists refer to but I

have seen

> it in many toxic and/or autistic kids.

>

> Even with that experience, I do understand how Vit A therapy can be

very

> helpful in many illnesses and we do use it in higher doses when

appropriate.

> Gaylen

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message

[Guest guest]

> Gaylen and Andy,

> What do you think of vit A acetate? This is the form in Kirkman's

Super Nu Thera.

I think it is totally wonderful as long as you use enough.

Others may have different opinions.

Andy . . . . . . .. . . . . .

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/1/02 3:23:33 PM Central Daylight Time,

krs111@... writes:

> Gaylen and Andy,

> What do you think of vit A acetate?

Sorry, I don't know much about that form. Palmitate is the only form Dr.

Megson says to avoid in the kids with suspected G-alpha protein defect.

Gaylen

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/1/02 3:25:18 PM Central Daylight Time,

krs111@... writes:

> Gaylen,

> Under what circumstances do you use high doses of Vit A with kids? What

> dose do you consider high?

>

Short-term for skin rashes, sinus infections and other upper respitory

infections. My resources say don't go over 18,000 IU for more than a month

with kids less than 70 pounds. We usually stick around 10,000 IU or less for

accute stuff and only do it until things are better -- usually a week or so.

My son does take 1t of CLO a day (about 4500 IU of A) plus gets some

carotenes in his Selenomune supplement and eats alot of leafy green veggies.

He could safely increase his intake though so we might consider that given

his positive response to the CLO.

He did test iffy on the HHV6 virus so the mention that the A may be keeping

viruses in check makes sense.

Andy, can you direct us to research that shows long-term higher doses are

safe in children? It would be interesting to try higher doses but I'm not

comfortable doing so for long term unless I can feel assured I'm not

stressing his liver too much -- been there, not fun. According to your

recommendations, he'd take 27,500-55,000 IU per day which seems extremely

high.

Gaylen

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/1/02 7:34:04 PM Central Daylight Time,

AndyCutler@... writes:

> Others may have different opinions.

>

> Andy . . . . . . .. . . . . .

>

Um, by this, did you mean me?

Changing my name to Ydna

(opposite-list-person, Gaylen -- better name than the Anti-Andy, huh?)

[Guest guest]

> Andy, can you direct us to research that shows long-term higher

doses are

> safe in children? It would be interesting to try higher doses but

I'm not

> comfortable doing so for long term unless I can feel assured I'm not

> stressing his liver too much -- been there, not fun.

Vitamin A is NOT stressful to the liver. It is protective to the

liver. It is stressful to the skin first of all.

I can't point out sources off the top of my head, though I believe in

Murray's Encyclopedia of Nutritional Supplements he discusses the

prior MD use of tidal waves of the stuff before the Rx retinoids were

available. Otherwise I'd have to go to the library and read old

(1960's and earlier) medical books to find it. I have known of a

large number of people who did this with their kids and all the kids

were fine.

>According to your

> recommendations, he'd take 27,500-55,000 IU per day which seems

extremely

> high.

Only by MD psychosis standards where the point is to keep your kids

sick if there isn't an Rx medication that helps.

Andy . . . . . .

[Guest guest]

> > Others may have different opinions.

> >

> > Andy . . . . . . .. . . . . .

>

> Um, by this, did you mean me?

I wasn't specifically pointing fingers at you, Gaylen. I was simply

acknowledging that this is a point of controversy. Reasonable people

differ on many thing, and there are many reasonable people on the list

(plus the occasional unreasonable ones) and also doctors are often

reasonable people tryind to do their best.

Andy . . .. . .

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/2/02 1:07:57 PM Central Daylight Time,

AndyCutler@... writes:

> I wasn't specifically pointing fingers at you, Gaylen.

Oh darn, take away all my fun. I was looking forward to taking over the

persona of the evil Anti-Andy Ynda. Guess we have to stay serious, huh?